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Simplified Economics



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02-12-2020 19:19
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15560)
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
keepit wrote:
What do you mean by "debt crash"? There is no such phrase in google.


Debt is the tool of the devil/democrat, to enslave hard working, patriotic Americans, to eventually turn them into mindless, spineless 'welfare' parasites. Google, is another tool of the devil/democrats. Anything that goes against the socialism agenda, is hard to find...


Can you think of a better way to get money into circulation other than debt?


Yes. Spend it. That's what circulation of money is (also called velocity). Debt is not required.


If you want to put NEW money into circulation, debt is required.

Nope. No debt is required.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Do you want to change the rules so that money gets created as soon as somebody buys something?

No, but YOU seem to want to.


It is required if you want to participate in the global fiat money system.

No, it isn't.


Hey Dumbo, How does money get created?

RQAA.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
02-12-2020 19:22
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15560)
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
M1 and M2 money have several definitions, ranging from narrow to broad.

Nope. They have specific definitions, defined by the Federal Reserve.
Spongy Iris wrote:
M1 = coins and currency in circulation + checkable (demand) deposit + traveler's checks. M2 = M1 + savings deposits + money market funds + certificates of deposit + other time deposits.

Reasonably close to their specific definition.
Spongy Iris wrote:
This money gets printed when people get loans / debt.

No. It is just printed.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Otherwise banks wouldn't know how much to print.

Banks do not print money.


You are being deliberately ignorant again. Banks create / print money when people get debt. That is how it is determined how much to print.

Banks don't print money.
Spongy Iris wrote:
If you get a mortgage to buy property, banks print that money.

Nope. That money comes from depositors of that bank, or from money the bank itself borrowed from someone else. Banks do not print money.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
02-12-2020 19:35
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15560)
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Everything bought and sold is part of economics.

Yup.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Gold represents very little of everything that is bought and sold.

Irrelevant. It is still bought and sold. It is part of economics.
Spongy Iris wrote:
There is not enough gold and silver in the world which has reportedly been mined to make enough coins to circulate as legal tender in the global economy.

Argument from randU fallacy. It doesn't matter how much gold is in the world.
Spongy Iris wrote:
0.45 pounds per person, most of it silver.

Argument from randU fallacy.
Spongy Iris wrote:
They call people like you "gold bugs."

Who are 'they'? Why are 'they' important?
Spongy Iris wrote:
President Nixon completely abandoned the gold standard in 1971.

...and the dollar has fallen rapidly because of it.


Oh I see. Whenever someone calculates anything The Parrot can't interpret, he just squawks, Randu fallacy.

Nope. An argument from randU fallacy is when someone makes up numbers, typically to embellish their argument, or for making an argument in the first place. A random number of type randU is a number that someone just makes up in their head, or uses an algorithm made up in their head (like the crappy random number generators in computer systems, that don't make use of a randR source). The very moment you hear someone use 'everyone' or 'no one' or 'thousands', you are probably hearing a randU.

It is not possible to measure the temperature of the Earth. We don't have anywhere near enough thermometers. 'Data' stored by NASA and NOAA as 'Earth temperatures' are random numbers of type randU. They are not data.

It is not possible to measure the global sea level. There is no valid reference point. Any such 'data' is a randU.

It is not possible to measure the global atmospheric CO2 content. We don't have anywhere near enough monitoring stations. Any 'data' on this is just randU.

It is not possible to measure the total snow and ice on Earth. We don't have enough monitoring stations. Any 'data' on this is just randU.

It is not possible to measure the global precipitation. There are nowhere near enough observers or monitoring stations. Any 'data' on this is just randU.

It is not possible to measure the temperature of the ocean. Just randU.

It is not possible to measure the pH of the ocean. Just randU.

It is not possible to measure the global population of any species. Just randU.

It is not possible to determine where CO2 came from. There is no indicator. It's just CO2. Such 'data' is just randU.

Spongy Iris wrote:
The dollar has fallen because of inflation, which I already defined. You are being deliberately ignorant again.

Circular definition. Try again.
Spongy Iris wrote:
I wish they had a mute button in this forum.

Why? You want to retreat to the kiddie pool? Can't handle the adult swimming area?


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
02-12-2020 19:41
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15560)
Spongy Iris wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:You are being deliberately ignorant again.

Into the Night is absolutely correct ... and you are a total moron. I might have mentioned that previously.

Spongy Iris wrote: Banks create / print money when people get debt.

Incorrect. Only Congress has the authority to create money, and that occurs specifically through the Treasury who authorizes crediting of that money to the public. The Federal Reserve is the Treasury's interface for accomplishing this by creating and crediting specific accounts as necessary ... and also by instructing the Bureau of Engraving to physically print money as needed.

Your absurd claim that banks somehow engage in counterfeiting is stupid.

Spongy Iris wrote: If you get a mortgage to buy property, banks print that money.

Too funny. You should stop pretending to participate in this discussion?

The banks lend money that they already have, that they have acquired from depositors or from borrowing from other banks.


.


Banks do not lend money they already have deposited.

Yes they do.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Do you know what a Reserve Requirement is oh smart one?

The ratio of deposits a bank must have on hand to make a loan, vs the total deposits or amounts borrowed from other banks.
Spongy Iris wrote:
As announced on March 15, 2020, the Board reduced reserve requirement ratios to zero percent effective March 26, 2020. This action eliminated reserve requirements for all depository institutions.

A bad idea. History shows why. Borrowing 100% of the money to make a loan is living on tick, and will eventually fail.
Spongy Iris wrote:
It used to be a rule of thumb that if a bank had $1 million in deposits it could lend $10 million. That is a 10% Reserve requirement.

Like I said.
Spongy Iris wrote:
As you can see on the Federal Reserve's website, Reserve requirements are now zero.

Like a said...a bad idea.
Spongy Iris wrote:
It's not counterfeit. It's based on whether or not somebody qualifies for a loan, which is based on how much somebody can sell.

Strawman fallacy.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Congress doesn't screen loan applications.

Strawman fallacy. Pivot fallacy. No one ever said it did.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
Edited on 02-12-2020 19:42
02-12-2020 20:04
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15560)
Spongy Iris wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:You explained Reserve requirements correctly and I did not.

You are welcome.

Spongy Iris wrote:However I am correct that banks can lend way more than they have on deposit, typically 10 times more, as I said.

Nope, you are egregiously mistaken. A bank can only lend what it can get, either through deposits or loans from other banks ... or in some cases, capital investment.

Your mistaken notion has banks effectively counterfeiting money. That does not happen; it cannot happen.

We're done here.

.


Ya a bank can loan out whatever is on deposit now, since there is 0% Reserve requirement.

I mistated earlier when I said they could loan out 10 times more than deposited. Put it in your signature.

But that's not even the point of this argument, which is that debt creates money.

Alan Holmes, a former senior vice president of the New York Federal Reserve Bank, wrote in 1969, "in the real world banks extend credit, creating deposits in the process, and look for the reserves later."

When a bank makes a loan, there are two corresponding entries that are made on its balance sheet, one on the assets side and one on the liabilities side. The loan counts as an asset to the bank and it is simultaneously offset by a newly created deposit, which is a liability of the bank to the depositor holder.

Loans actually create deposits.


A zero reserve requirement means a bank and put the entire assets of depositors at risk. This is a BAD IDEA. Some loans inevitably go bad. That means if all the depositors should try to withdraw their money from the bank, the bank doesn't have it. The bank fails. This happened to Washington Mutual Savings bank, when they exposed too much of their depositor's money on bad loans. That bank now no longer exists.

It can happen to any bank.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
02-12-2020 20:11
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15560)
Spongy Iris wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:But that's not even the point of this argument, which is that debt creates money.

Nope. Only Congress can authorize the creation of money. No bank can "authorize" the creation of money and no bank can accomplish the creation of money, not by lending, not by anything.

A bank is just like a person. If you hire my son to mow your lawn for $40 and when he finishes you owe him $40. You have now incurred a debt of $40. No money has been created.

Spongy Iris wrote: When a bank makes a loan, there are two corresponding entries that are made on its balance sheet, one on the assets side and one on the liabilities side.

I'm pretty good at accounting. I know how it works.

Accounting does not create money; it helps people make better decisions.

Spongy Iris wrote: The loan counts as an asset to the bank and it is simultaneously offset by a newly created deposit, which is a liability of the bank to the depositor holder.

And the depositor has a symetrical ledger entry of an equivalently-valued deposit credit balanced by an equivalent debit entry to "cash in hand."

Spongy Iris wrote:Loans actually create deposits.

No. Loans create transactions.

.


If your son bought a lawnmower with a credit card from a commercial bank, he would be creating money, when none existed before that.

Nope. That money comes from depositors of that bank making the loan.
Spongy Iris wrote:
The cash would go to the lawnmower seller. Once your son pays off his debt, after mowing some lawns, the cash is destroyed.

Nope. It goes back to the bank he borrowed the money from.
Spongy Iris wrote:
If he gets hit with late fees and or interest, before he can pay all the debt, that goes to the bank's reserves

Nope. It goes into the profit margins of the bank.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Congress creates money when they go into debt to pay for public services and public infrastructure.

Nope. Congress borrows the money when they go into debt. That's what a treasury bond is. A promissory note. They sell these on the open market. The price they pay is the interest rate of the note. If someone accepts that price, they will buy the note, expecting to get paid that interest as payment. If the note goes bad because the government defaults on it's debt, the bond holder loses everything.
Spongy Iris wrote:
No one agency is creating all of a nation's money.

Congress. That is one agency. It is the only agency that authorizes the Fed to create money.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Lots of banks are processing lots of loan applications, or buying government bonds.

Can you explain another way which money can be created?

RQAA. Congress authorizes the creation of money to the Fed, which creates the money. Done.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
02-12-2020 20:28
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15560)
keepit wrote:
The treasury legally has the authority to coin money.

True. That is not the same as creating fiat money.
keepit wrote:
I think they have the legal ability to produce paper money as well.

But they don't have the legal ability to create fiat money.
keepit wrote:
I'd like to see them produce money and send it to foreign creditors and then be done with them.

Makes no difference. They are doing the same thing.
keepit wrote:
The world can stand some inflation.

Why? Inflation is always bad.
keepit wrote:
There is a significant threat of disinflation or even deflation.

Deflation can be good. Your money is worth more than it was before. Products cost less too.
A slight deflation is normal and healthy. As products are created, and they are created more efficiently than they were before, prices will naturally go down. This is a good thing. Computers, for example, used to cost thousands or even millions of dollars. Now, they can be had for $40 or so (such a Raspberry Pi). A typical cell phone is much more powerful than the mainframes of yesterday, it fits in your pocket, and is also a phone, not just a computer, and costs just a few hundred dollars. The price of memory has dropped from costing thousands per kilobyte to pennies. It's smaller too. You could easily accidentally drop one of these chicklets down a storm drain.

Steel used to be very expensive to produce. Now, it's CHEAP. Better foundaries, better mining equipment, better quality as well.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
02-12-2020 20:43
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15560)
IBdaMann wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote: If your son bought a lawnmower with a credit card from a commercial bank, he would be creating money, when none existed before that.

Incorrect. No money is created. Existing money simply shuffles around.

Scenario:

* My son has $200 in his Bank of America checking account
* Chase Bank has $13 Billion in cash
* Mastercard has a global financial network
* Local Store has a lawn mower

Step 1: My son enters the local store with his Chase Bank Mastercard credit card and purchases the lawn mower (price $200) using Mastercard's global network.

Step 2: Mastercard pulls $196 from Chase's $13 Billion to pay local store for the lawn mower. Chase places a $200 charge on my son's credit account.

Step 3: Chase Bank pulls $200 from my son's Bank of America checking account to pay the $200 credit charge.

Money moves around. No new money is created at any point.

Only Congress can authorize the creation of money. Only the Treasury can actually create money and the Federal Reserve is used to facilitate such. Only the Bureau of Engraving can actually print money and only the mint can coin money.

.


Actually, anyone can coin money. Private individuals coin gold and silver, for example, to honor some event or something. An example is the Philharmonic coin, in gold or silver, to honor the Philharmonic Orchestra. It was coined by that orchestra. The U.S. govern can also coin money in gold or silver. They can print paper notes representing gold or silver as well, just as any bank can (and used to, until the creation of the Fed took that away).

Presenting such a note to the bank was a withdrawal, in gold or silver, your choice, from your deposits. Banks would issue you such a note when you made the deposit. People would even trade just the notes, knowing, the gold they represented at that bank would be theirs now as a result, like a withdrawal and deposit without actually making the transaction at the bank.

Banks used to issue their own notes. If you deposit that note in another bank, then one bank pays the other in gold (or silver) to complete the transaction. Clearing houses were set up to facilitate these kind of interbank transactions. One of the functions of the Fed is to also act as a clearing house.

Today, the same kind of thing happens with fiat money, except you can't get gold or silver from presenting such a note at the bank anymore. Nor can you get it from the federal government.

Money today is mostly just bits in a computer. Paper notes (cash) are still around, but have been relegated to smaller transactions. Everything else is just bits. There is no inherent commodity they are attached to for value. They are fiat money.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
02-12-2020 21:53
keepit
★★★★★
(2235)
All money is fiat money. Don't worry.
02-12-2020 22:20
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(9190)
keepit wrote: All money is fiat money. Don't worry.

Nope.

Fiat money is devoid of intrinsic value.


You are a moron.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
02-12-2020 22:40
keepit
★★★★★
(2235)
You need more education IBD. Maybe an american univ .

Tell me about a currency that does have intrinsic value. Gold wouldn't have much value if it weren't used for reserves.
Edited on 02-12-2020 23:08
02-12-2020 23:10
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★★
(2107)
keepit wrote:
You need more education IBD. Maybe an american univ .

I would say that YOU need more education, but the education that you have received here has obviously not helped you any...
02-12-2020 23:13
keepit
★★★★★
(2235)
So says the accounting graduate.
03-12-2020 00:26
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(9190)
keepit wrote:You need more education IBD.

I can always use more education which is why I continually pursue it.

You should not have given up on education without ever having given it a chance.


keepit wrote: Tell me about a currency that does have intrinsic value.

Pick something having intrinsic value.

keepit wrote: Gold wouldn't have much value if it weren't used for reserves.

You don't get to use the subjunctive. Gold does, in fact, hold great intrinsic value, both aesthetically and in electrical properties.

Trivia: during the Reagan era, Northrop Grumman engineers designed engine plates and connectors made with gold for the B-2 bomber that cost a total of more than $200K that effectively attenuated emanations that would otherwise have compromised its stealth. The Defense Department opted instead to go with a bulkier, less efficient engineering solution that cost more than $10 million ... and forego news reporting that the Air Force is buying gold-plated engines.



.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
03-12-2020 00:58
keepit
★★★★★
(2235)
IBD,
And the gold in those engines would have been much cheaper if so much gold hadn't been hoarded into reserves.
The point is there's a lot of gold and a small percentage of it is used for industrial purposes.
Go ahead, tell me about a currency that has intrinsic value.

Food has intrinsic value.
You're a waste of time.
Edited on 03-12-2020 01:00
03-12-2020 02:16
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(9190)
keepit wrote: IBD, And the gold in those engines would have been much cheaper if so much gold hadn't been hoarded into reserves.

Not only did you miss the point but you felt it necessary to pivot to a completely irrelevant topic about which to egregiously err.

"Hoarded" into reserves? Who talks like that? Answer: Marxists who don't know anything.

keepit wrote:The point is there's a lot of gold and a small percentage of it is used for industrial purposes.

I don't know on what planet you live but gold is used quite extensively in the jewelry industry, but you have to practically be an industry insider to know this.

keepit wrote: Go ahead, tell me about a currency that has intrinsic value.

Pick something that has intrinsic value.

keepit wrote:Food has intrinsic value.

... and therefore food is not fiat currency.

You're a waste of time.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
03-12-2020 02:22
keepit
★★★★★
(2235)
According to some website ? there is a similar amount gold in jewelry as there is in central banks and investments.

IBD,
Your logic is terrible.
Edited on 03-12-2020 02:23
03-12-2020 04:10
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(9190)
keepit wrote:
According to some website ? there is a similar amount gold in jewelry as there is in central banks and investments.

IBD,
Your logic is terrible.


You're a moron.

Is your phobia of making sense the reason you don't dare to learn anything?



.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
03-12-2020 17:08
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★★
(2107)
Yet ANOTHER great graphic!!! Good job!!
03-12-2020 20:35
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15560)
keepit wrote:
All money is fiat money. Don't worry.


No.

If I choose to use gold for money. It is not fiat money. No government is ordering me to use it.
The U.S. government is required by it's constitution to use only gold or silver for money.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
03-12-2020 20:41
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15560)
keepit wrote:
You need more education IBD. Maybe an american univ .

You need more education, keepit. America is a proper noun. It is capitalized.
duncan61 wrote:
Tell me about a currency that does have intrinsic value.

Gold. Silver. Platinum. Iron. Wheat. Beans. Water. Shall I go on?
duncan61 wrote:
Gold wouldn't have much value if it weren't used for reserves.

WRONG. Gold has a value. It's current price per ounce is $1837.70 (20.12.03.w.1848utc).


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
03-12-2020 20:43
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15560)
keepit wrote:
So says the accounting graduate.


People in accounting have got it figured out far more than YOU have.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
03-12-2020 20:45
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15560)
keepit wrote:
IBD,
And the gold in those engines would have been much cheaper if so much gold hadn't been hoarded into reserves.
The point is there's a lot of gold and a small percentage of it is used for industrial purposes.
Go ahead, tell me about a currency that has intrinsic value.

Food has intrinsic value.
You're a waste of time.


Why are people hoarding it? It has value.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
03-12-2020 21:03
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15560)
keepit wrote:
According to some website ? there is a similar amount gold in jewelry as there is in central banks and investments.

IBD,
Your logic is terrible.


No, that would be YOU.

Gold is used industrially. It is an excellent conductor and it does not tarnish. It can be drawn into extremely fine wire, due to it's ductility. I can be plated on circuit connectors to protect them from corrosion and to reduce voltage drop across the connection. It can be made into a thin foil that is very effective against several types of radiation.

Gold is used as a decorative item. Statues, monuments, and plaques of often covered in gold leaf. It is possible to use leaf that is extremely thin, again due to it's ductility.

Gold is used in jewelry. It is usually plated on or mixed with a stronger metal to give that jewelry strength (gold by itself has weak tensile strength).

Gold is used as a currency. Iran is the only nation using gold as it's currency. They did this to escape the screws the U.S. was putting on their banks It was successful. They sell oil for gold now. Several nations and other organizations coin gold. The U.S. coins American Eagles. This coin has a specified purity and weight that is easy to measure using simple tools. Counterfeits are easily detected with these tools.

Africa, Canada (the maple leaf coin is a beautiful design), and even organizations like the Austrian Philharmonic have coined gold.

Gold is not hoarded any more than any other money is hoarded. It is bought and sold regularly.

People buy and keep gold because it DOES have inherent value, and it's price has been going up consistently (compared to fiat currencies, which are actually falling).


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
03-12-2020 21:23
keepit
★★★★★
(2235)
The point is that gold has very little value compared to the value ascribed to it as a currency.
03-12-2020 22:20
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★★
(2107)
keepit wrote:
The point is that gold has very little value compared to the value ascribed to it as a currency.

You literally retained absolutely NOTHING that ITN just got done saying to you... WOW...
03-12-2020 22:31
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(9190)
gfm7175 wrote:
keepit wrote:
The point is that gold has very little value compared to the value ascribed to it as a currency.

You literally retained absolutely NOTHING that ITN just got done saying to you... WOW...

Don't tell me you honestly expected any different result this time (re: definition of insanity).



.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
03-12-2020 23:11
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★★
(2107)
IBdaMann wrote:
gfm7175 wrote:
keepit wrote:
The point is that gold has very little value compared to the value ascribed to it as a currency.

You literally retained absolutely NOTHING that ITN just got done saying to you... WOW...

Don't tell me you honestly expected any different result this time (re: definition of insanity).



.




You got me... I have to admit that I didn't honestly expect a different result.
03-12-2020 23:11
keepit
★★★★★
(2235)
ITN missed my point.
03-12-2020 23:15
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(9190)
keepit wrote: ITN missed my point.

You actually have to have made a valid point in order to claim that someone somehow "missed it."

Sorry, I don't make the rules.




.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
03-12-2020 23:16
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(9190)
gfm7175 wrote:You got me... I have to admit that I didn't honestly expect a different result.

Good. I'm happy to report that your sanity is still intact.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
03-12-2020 23:38
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★★
(2107)
IBdaMann wrote:
gfm7175 wrote:You got me... I have to admit that I didn't honestly expect a different result.

Good. I'm happy to report that your sanity is still intact.

.

WOO HOO!!!!!! HIP HIP HURRAY!!!

Whoops, I got so excited that my muzzle... I mean, my covid-protection device... slipped down below my nose.
04-12-2020 02:50
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15560)
keepit wrote:
The point is that gold has very little value compared to the value ascribed to it as a currency.


Gold has no additional value just because it happens to be used as a currency.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
04-12-2020 02:52
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15560)
keepit wrote:
ITN missed my point.


No, your point is that gold somehow has a different value as a currency than as any other use. You are wrong. Nothing about being a currency changes ti's value.

That was after the other point you made that gold was valueless.
That was after your other point you made that there isn't enough gold to use as currency.
That was after...

Shall I go on? Or you do you want to deny yourself again and pivot to something else?


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
Edited on 04-12-2020 02:54
04-12-2020 03:15
keepit
★★★★★
(2235)
I didn't say those things ITN.
04-12-2020 07:49
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15560)
keepit wrote:
I didn't say those things ITN.


So you're just going to deny everything you said. Fine. Done.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
06-12-2020 00:38
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(585)
IBdaMann wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote: If your son bought a lawnmower with a credit card from a commercial bank, he would be creating money, when none existed before that.

Incorrect. No money is created. Existing money simply shuffles around.

Scenario:

* My son has $200 in his Bank of America checking account
* Chase Bank has $13 Billion in cash
* Mastercard has a global financial network
* Local Store has a lawn mower

Step 1: My son enters the local store with his Chase Bank Mastercard credit card and purchases the lawn mower (price $200) using Mastercard's global network.

Step 2: Mastercard pulls $196 from Chase's $13 Billion to pay local store for the lawn mower. Chase places a $200 charge on my son's credit account.

Step 3: Chase Bank pulls $200 from my son's Bank of America checking account to pay the $200 credit charge.

Money moves around. No new money is created at any point.

Only Congress can authorize the creation of money. Only the Treasury can actually create money and the Federal Reserve is used to facilitate such. Only the Bureau of Engraving can actually print money and only the mint can coin money.

.


Bank deposits are created when loans are made. That's how cash is made. Some things are just too simple for a complex mind such as yours to understand I guess. Oh well.

There is a minting process too, but that is not money in circulation yet.

JP Morgan Chase has almost $1 trillion in loans, and a paltry fraction of that, $34 billion, in reserves as of Q3.

https://fortune.com/2020/10/14/jp-morgan-q3-results-profits-trading-investing-big-banks-covid/

They are obviously not loaning out their own cash dude.

I'm not sure where you're getting the number of $13 billion cash.

It seems you are preaching what financial writers dub, fairy tale banking.

The king doesn't get to create money just because his face is on the coin, or as you call your king, Congress.

It's a process that involves everybody participating in economies.

And the savings equals the debt. There is not more savings than debt.
06-12-2020 00:42
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(585)
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
M1 and M2 money have several definitions, ranging from narrow to broad.

Nope. They have specific definitions, defined by the Federal Reserve.
Spongy Iris wrote:
M1 = coins and currency in circulation + checkable (demand) deposit + traveler's checks. M2 = M1 + savings deposits + money market funds + certificates of deposit + other time deposits.

Reasonably close to their specific definition.
Spongy Iris wrote:
This money gets printed when people get loans / debt.

No. It is just printed.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Otherwise banks wouldn't know how much to print.

Banks do not print money.


You are being deliberately ignorant again. Banks create / print money when people get debt. That is how it is determined how much to print.

Banks don't print money.
Spongy Iris wrote:
If you get a mortgage to buy property, banks print that money.

Nope. That money comes from depositors of that bank, or from money the bank itself borrowed from someone else. Banks do not print money.


Loans create deposits.

You seem to be confusing minting money with putting money into circulation.
06-12-2020 00:48
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(585)
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:You are being deliberately ignorant again.

Into the Night is absolutely correct ... and you are a total moron. I might have mentioned that previously.

Spongy Iris wrote: Banks create / print money when people get debt.

Incorrect. Only Congress has the authority to create money, and that occurs specifically through the Treasury who authorizes crediting of that money to the public. The Federal Reserve is the Treasury's interface for accomplishing this by creating and crediting specific accounts as necessary ... and also by instructing the Bureau of Engraving to physically print money as needed.

Your absurd claim that banks somehow engage in counterfeiting is stupid.

Spongy Iris wrote: If you get a mortgage to buy property, banks print that money.

Too funny. You should stop pretending to participate in this discussion?

The banks lend money that they already have, that they have acquired from depositors or from borrowing from other banks.


.


Banks do not lend money they already have deposited.

Yes they do.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Do you know what a Reserve Requirement is oh smart one?

The ratio of deposits a bank must have on hand to make a loan, vs the total deposits or amounts borrowed from other banks.
Spongy Iris wrote:
As announced on March 15, 2020, the Board reduced reserve requirement ratios to zero percent effective March 26, 2020. This action eliminated reserve requirements for all depository institutions.

A bad idea. History shows why. Borrowing 100% of the money to make a loan is living on tick, and will eventually fail.
Spongy Iris wrote:
It used to be a rule of thumb that if a bank had $1 million in deposits it could lend $10 million. That is a 10% Reserve requirement.

Like I said.
Spongy Iris wrote:
As you can see on the Federal Reserve's website, Reserve requirements are now zero.

Like a said...a bad idea.
Spongy Iris wrote:
It's not counterfeit. It's based on whether or not somebody qualifies for a loan, which is based on how much somebody can sell.

Strawman fallacy.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Congress doesn't screen loan applications.

Strawman fallacy. Pivot fallacy. No one ever said it did.


You don't seem to understand that there is not more savings than there is debt.

A bad idea as you call a 0% Reserve policy, is inevitable. I doubt the Federal Reserve will increase that reserve requirement ever again. But let's see...
Edited on 06-12-2020 01:04
06-12-2020 01:01
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(585)
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:But that's not even the point of this argument, which is that debt creates money.

Nope. Only Congress can authorize the creation of money. No bank can "authorize" the creation of money and no bank can accomplish the creation of money, not by lending, not by anything.

A bank is just like a person. If you hire my son to mow your lawn for $40 and when he finishes you owe him $40. You have now incurred a debt of $40. No money has been created.

Spongy Iris wrote: When a bank makes a loan, there are two corresponding entries that are made on its balance sheet, one on the assets side and one on the liabilities side.

I'm pretty good at accounting. I know how it works.

Accounting does not create money; it helps people make better decisions.

Spongy Iris wrote: The loan counts as an asset to the bank and it is simultaneously offset by a newly created deposit, which is a liability of the bank to the depositor holder.

And the depositor has a symetrical ledger entry of an equivalently-valued deposit credit balanced by an equivalent debit entry to "cash in hand."

Spongy Iris wrote:Loans actually create deposits.

No. Loans create transactions.

.


If your son bought a lawnmower with a credit card from a commercial bank, he would be creating money, when none existed before that.

Nope. That money comes from depositors of that bank making the loan.
Spongy Iris wrote:
The cash would go to the lawnmower seller. Once your son pays off his debt, after mowing some lawns, the cash is destroyed.

Nope. It goes back to the bank he borrowed the money from.
Spongy Iris wrote:
If he gets hit with late fees and or interest, before he can pay all the debt, that goes to the bank's reserves

Nope. It goes into the profit margins of the bank.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Congress creates money when they go into debt to pay for public services and public infrastructure.

Nope. Congress borrows the money when they go into debt. That's what a treasury bond is. A promissory note. They sell these on the open market. The price they pay is the interest rate of the note. If someone accepts that price, they will buy the note, expecting to get paid that interest as payment. If the note goes bad because the government defaults on it's debt, the bond holder loses everything.
Spongy Iris wrote:
No one agency is creating all of a nation's money.

Congress. That is one agency. It is the only agency that authorizes the Fed to create money.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Lots of banks are processing lots of loan applications, or buying government bonds.

Can you explain another way which money can be created?

RQAA. Congress authorizes the creation of money to the Fed, which creates the money. Done.


From the Bank of England's 2014 Q1 Quarterly Bulletin:

"Just as taking out a new loan creates money, the repayment of bank loans destroys money. For example, suppose a consumer has spent money in the supermarket throughout the month by using a credit card. Each purchase made using the credit card will have increased the outstanding loans on the consumer's balance sheet and the deposits on the supermarket's balance sheet. ... If the consumer were then to pay their credit card bill in full at the end of the month, its bank would reduce the amount of deposits in the consumer's account by the value of the credit card bill, thus destroying all of the newly created money."

Economics Stack Exchange

"when banks lend out money, that money is created out of thin air by a accounting journal entry, and the money supply goes up by the amount of the loan & when the loan gets paid off, that money disappears back into thin air and the money supply goes back down which is often also described as "destroying the money""
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