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Simplified Economics



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25-11-2020 22:30
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15506)
Spongy Iris wrote:
James___ wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:

Money is a contrivance! What better to explain inflation than this contrivance to simplify that contrivance???




It's possible that money came about to make bartering for goods and services easier. An example is if you had something to barter and couldn't bargain for what you wanted. Money would allow you to "sell" your goods or services. Then if in another nearby city you found a good that you wanted, you wouldn't have to carry goods to barter that might be of no value to the individual that you would want to barter with.
As for inflation, new loans by businesses or individuals is meant to account for it. If not, then the economy will contract. This is because goods and services will cost more yet there would be no new money in circulation.
Basically speaking, consumer and business debt is what has traditionally grown an economy.

Private Debt;
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEBTN

GDP
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GDP

Makes me wonder if the national debt is because of the US trade deficit. Couldn't find any information on savings which would be both consumer ($1.3 Trillion) and businesses. If that's say, $8 Trillion, then maybe everyone gets the idea.


I can't say I'm surprised you honed in you on that specific sentence of mine
...

If you add up the trade deficit between US and other countries, for last 50 years, it doesn't account for national debt. It's maybe just between 5 to 10% of national debt. But there does appear to be a strong correlation between when the trade deficit took off like a rocket, on the charts, and when the national debt did so too, which was around 50 years ago.

No correlation. The trade deficit or surplus has nothing to do with the national debt. Non-sequitur fallacy.
Spongy Iris wrote:
The US budget deficit for the last 50 years appears to account for the national debt.

ALL of the national debt is due to budget deficit.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Adding those numbers up is more than half of the national debt.

ALL of it. 100% of it.
Spongy Iris wrote:
I guess the rest is accumulated interest charges.

Part of the deficit.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Hey come to think of it, shouldn't there be a debt jubilee coming up?

That's a debt crash. Is that what you want? There is no jubilee for government debt.
Spongy Iris wrote:
If you consider my "contrivance" the US appears to be the biggest organization which deficit spends,

Certainly in the U.S. In the world? That's debatable.
Spongy Iris wrote:
to make up for savings,

The U.S. government has no savings.
Spongy Iris wrote:
which is money taken out of circulation.

Whether money is taken out of circulation by private individuals is irrelevant. It's still money.
Spongy Iris wrote:
In that sense, it looks like Uncle Sam's debt has very much been carrying the world the past 50 years.

No. It only carries the federal government, and it's been longer than 50 years.

The debt has never been this high before though. It is currently hovering around 128% of GDP.

Yes, the U.S. government owes more than the entire economic output of the people of the United States in a single year.

See the debt clock for a better view.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
Edited on 25-11-2020 22:37
25-11-2020 23:21
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(584)
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
[quote]Into the Night wrote:
[quote]Spongy Iris wrote:

[quote]Spongy Iris wrote:

[quote]Spongy Iris wrote:
Are you saying the US Treasury does not have to pay back the Federal Reserve for the $4.5 trillion of Treasuries which the Federal Reserve has stated to be an asset?

It is not an asset.
Spongy Iris wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, claiming something to be an asset which is not actually an asset is considered fraud.

Welcome to the wonderful wacky world of fiat currency.
Spongy Iris wrote:
The biggest liabilities listed for the Federal Reserve are reserve balances with Federal Reserve banks, currency in circulation, deposits with Federal Reserve banks. Are these not considered deposits?

No. As far as the Federal Reserve is concerned, these are loans.
Spongy Iris wrote:
The Federal Reserve doesn't list any debt on the liability side of their balance sheet.

Currency in circulation is a debt. The Federal Reserve IS Federal Reserve 'banks'.
Spongy Iris wrote:
For them, debt, such as US Treasuries is an asset, and deposits are liabilities.

They have no assets. They are government.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Anything can be used for money.

True. I already said this.
Spongy Iris wrote:
It is the accounting that is what's important.

Money is two things: A representation of value (you can buy things with it), and a unit of account (you can set a price. That's the accounting part).
Spongy Iris wrote:
Gold is rather expensive to use as your ledger.

Not at all. It is simply another form of money.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Paper, or computers, seem a bit more practical

There is nothing about gold that is incompatible with modern accounting systems and computers.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Golden money reminds me of a golden toilet.

That would be one hell of an expensive toilet!
Spongy Iris wrote:
You apparently still don't understand inflation.

Inversion fallacy.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Here I will explain it to you... again.

Riiight.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Say there are 1,000 people in a workforce.

$300 is the price for each person to buy what they need in 1 year.

By year end, $300,000 is spent and $300,000 is earned.

But the management class takes the lion's share of the available earnings

100 people get paid $450 per year.

900 people get paid $283.33 per year.

900 people need an extra $16.67 by year end.

100 people have an extra $150 by year end.

At the end of the year there is savings of $15,000 and a deficit of $15,000.

The 900 people will need to get credit cards, mortgages, or other loans to cover their expenses of $300.

If the 100 people spend all their $450 in the course of the year, and all else is constant, there is $315,000 spent, and it will then take $315 for everybody to buy what they need.

The net prices of everything people need will have risen 5% in the course of the year.

That's what you call simplified economics


No, that's what I call an attempted proof by contrivance. Invalid.


Your deposits in the bank are financially considered assets of yours and it is a loan (liability) to banks.

Bank loans to people are financially considered assets to banks, and liabilities to people.

Irrelevant. You are no longer talking about the Federal Reserve.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Money is a contrivance! What better to explain inflation than this contrivance to simplify that contrivance???

Semantics fallacy. Contextomy fallacy.

No argument presented. Trolling.


You apparently don't know anything about the Federal Reserve. The largest holders of Federal Reserve Deposits are foreign governments, the Treasury, and mostly private banks in the US.
Nope. No bank or foreign government has deposits at the Federal Reserve. Neither does the Treasury.
Spongy Iris wrote:
And apparently you don't know what a balance sheet is either, and what qualifies as an asset and a liability.
I do know what a balance sheet is. I use them all the time. I run a business.
Spongy Iris wrote:
It you don't want to understand inflation, you shouldn't make comments about inflation like you know it all, when you are obviously mistaking correlation for cause.
Reversal fallacy. Fallacy fallacy.
Spongy Iris wrote:
I'm trying to help you understand, but you keep trolling me in response,
Inversion fallacy.
Spongy Iris wrote:
or changing the subject,
Inversion fallacy.
Spongy Iris wrote:
or trailing off on irrelevant tangents.
Inversion fallacy.
Spongy Iris wrote:
What are you smoking dude???

That would probably be you. I don't smoke or drink.


The Federal Reserve says banks and governments have deposits with them. You say the Federal Reserve has no deposits.

Please explain your contradiction.

Already did. RQAA.


Where? Copy paste your explanation please. Is , "Welcome to the wonderful wacky world of fiat currency" the entirety of your explanation?
25-11-2020 23:37
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(584)
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
James___ wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:

Money is a contrivance! What better to explain inflation than this contrivance to simplify that contrivance???




It's possible that money came about to make bartering for goods and services easier. An example is if you had something to barter and couldn't bargain for what you wanted. Money would allow you to "sell" your goods or services. Then if in another nearby city you found a good that you wanted, you wouldn't have to carry goods to barter that might be of no value to the individual that you would want to barter with.
As for inflation, new loans by businesses or individuals is meant to account for it. If not, then the economy will contract. This is because goods and services will cost more yet there would be no new money in circulation.
Basically speaking, consumer and business debt is what has traditionally grown an economy.

Private Debt;
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEBTN

GDP
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GDP

Makes me wonder if the national debt is because of the US trade deficit. Couldn't find any information on savings which would be both consumer ($1.3 Trillion) and businesses. If that's say, $8 Trillion, then maybe everyone gets the idea.


I can't say I'm surprised you honed in you on that specific sentence of mine
...

If you add up the trade deficit between US and other countries, for last 50 years, it doesn't account for national debt. It's maybe just between 5 to 10% of national debt. But there does appear to be a strong correlation between when the trade deficit took off like a rocket, on the charts, and when the national debt did so too, which was around 50 years ago.

No correlation. The trade deficit or surplus has nothing to do with the national debt. Non-sequitur fallacy.
Spongy Iris wrote:
The US budget deficit for the last 50 years appears to account for the national debt.

ALL of the national debt is due to budget deficit.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Adding those numbers up is more than half of the national debt.

ALL of it. 100% of it.
Spongy Iris wrote:
I guess the rest is accumulated interest charges.

Part of the deficit.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Hey come to think of it, shouldn't there be a debt jubilee coming up?

That's a debt crash. Is that what you want? There is no jubilee for government debt.
Spongy Iris wrote:
If you consider my "contrivance" the US appears to be the biggest organization which deficit spends,

Certainly in the U.S. In the world? That's debatable.
Spongy Iris wrote:
to make up for savings,

The U.S. government has no savings.
Spongy Iris wrote:
which is money taken out of circulation.

Whether money is taken out of circulation by private individuals is irrelevant. It's still money.
Spongy Iris wrote:
In that sense, it looks like Uncle Sam's debt has very much been carrying the world the past 50 years.

No. It only carries the federal government, and it's been longer than 50 years.

The debt has never been this high before though. It is currently hovering around 128% of GDP.

Yes, the U.S. government owes more than the entire economic output of the people of the United States in a single year.

See the debt clock for a better view.


A "debt crash" as you call it seems pressing more timely than a "cash crash." But I guess one never knows...

There has been inflation that one could dub to be hyper for the past 50 years. And the almighty dollar's greatest competitor is bitcoin! Enough said.

The US debt, US budget deficit, and US trade deficit all began to increase more rapidly 50 years ago (in a fashion of greater acceleration).

Writing off the US debt would seem to me as a debt jubilee of biblical proportions!

You have now made it abundantly clear you wish to remain willfully ignorant about the cause of inflation. I have no doubt you will continue to express your willful ignorance after this post.
26-11-2020 02:47
keepit
★★★★★
(2235)
What do you mean by "debt crash"? There is no such phrase in google.
26-11-2020 03:18
HarveyH55Profile picture★★★★★
(3368)
keepit wrote:
What do you mean by "debt crash"? There is no such phrase in google.


Debt is the tool of the devil/democrat, to enslave hard working, patriotic Americans, to eventually turn them into mindless, spineless 'welfare' parasites. Google, is another tool of the devil/democrats. Anything that goes against the socialism agenda, is hard to find...
26-11-2020 03:20
keepit
★★★★★
(2235)
The word paranoia comes to mind. Do you have any evidence for what you say?
26-11-2020 05:08
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15506)
Spongy Iris wrote:
Where? Copy paste your explanation please. Is , "Welcome to the wonderful wacky world of fiat currency" the entirety of your explanation?


That, and the point that the Fed and the federal government are lying to you.

Believe it or not, we didn't HAVE anything like the Fed until 1913, when President Wilson (a Democrat) created it using a Democrat Congress. In 1934 President Roosevelt (another Democrat) forced everyone onto the fiat currency by outlawing ownership of gold, imposing VERY harsh penalties for anyone that did not comply.

That's when Fort Knox was built, to house all that stolen gold.

Today, Fort Knox is still there, and still has gold in it, but NONE of it belongs to the federal government. It is all owned by foreign governments that keep their gold there (such as Germany). The US over the years has frittered away their gold.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
26-11-2020 05:14
keepit
★★★★★
(2235)
Gold would have very little value if we didn't pretend it was so valuable. It's the same with currency. Why pretend gold is so valuable? Valuable for what other than pretending? Currency is worth pretending it has value because it is so much more convenient than gold as a currency.
26-11-2020 20:55
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15506)
keepit wrote:
What do you mean by "debt crash"? There is no such phrase in google.

RQAA. Google is not God. Neither does it define any word except 'Google'.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
26-11-2020 20:56
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15506)
keepit wrote:
The word paranoia comes to mind. Do you have any evidence for what you say?


He already gave it. RQAA.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
26-11-2020 21:01
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15506)
keepit wrote:
Gold would have very little value if we didn't pretend it was so valuable.

Gold has an industrial value as well.
keepit wrote:
It's the same with currency.

All money is valued according to the faith in that money.
keepit wrote:
Why pretend gold is so valuable?

Because the government can't just print it whenever they feel like it.
keepit wrote:
Valuable for what other than pretending? Currency is worth pretending it has value because it is so much more convenient than gold as a currency.

Gold is completely compatible with modern accounting methods and credit system. There is nothing inconvenient about gold at all as a currency, except to the government, which can no longer print it's way out of it's problems. It will have to contract.

This is a good thing.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
27-11-2020 03:44
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(584)
HarveyH55 wrote:
keepit wrote:
What do you mean by "debt crash"? There is no such phrase in google.


Debt is the tool of the devil/democrat, to enslave hard working, patriotic Americans, to eventually turn them into mindless, spineless 'welfare' parasites. Google, is another tool of the devil/democrats. Anything that goes against the socialism agenda, is hard to find...


Can you think of a better way to get money into circulation other than debt?
27-11-2020 03:53
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(584)
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Where? Copy paste your explanation please. Is , "Welcome to the wonderful wacky world of fiat currency" the entirety of your explanation?


That, and the point that the Fed and the federal government are lying to you.

Believe it or not, we didn't HAVE anything like the Fed until 1913, when President Wilson (a Democrat) created it using a Democrat Congress. In 1934 President Roosevelt (another Democrat) forced everyone onto the fiat currency by outlawing ownership of gold, imposing VERY harsh penalties for anyone that did not comply.

That's when Fort Knox was built, to house all that stolen gold.

Today, Fort Knox is still there, and still has gold in it, but NONE of it belongs to the federal government. It is all owned by foreign governments that keep their gold there (such as Germany). The US over the years has frittered away their gold.


See this is what I'm talking about when I told you you trail off on irrelevant tangents!

We were talking about deposits of cash with the Federal Reserve, then you claim those deposits don't exist because the Federal Government doesn't own any gold at Fort Knox.

Try to stay on topic please. You are confusing 2 completely different kinds of deposits!
27-11-2020 03:55
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(584)
keepit wrote:
What do you mean by "debt crash"? There is no such phrase in google.


I think he's just talking about writing off debt.
27-11-2020 05:02
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(584)
Into the Night wrote:
keepit wrote:
Gold would have very little value if we didn't pretend it was so valuable.

Gold has an industrial value as well.
keepit wrote:
It's the same with currency.

All money is valued according to the faith in that money.
keepit wrote:
Why pretend gold is so valuable?

Because the government can't just print it whenever they feel like it.
keepit wrote:
Valuable for what other than pretending? Currency is worth pretending it has value because it is so much more convenient than gold as a currency.

Gold is completely compatible with modern accounting methods and credit system. There is nothing inconvenient about gold at all as a currency, except to the government, which can no longer print it's way out of it's problems. It will have to contract.

This is a good thing.


If my math is correct, there is about 0.05 pounds of gold per person in the world which has been mined.

200000 tonnes ÷ 8000000000 people × 2000 pounds per tonne.

How many gold coins you think each person can get?
27-11-2020 10:28
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15506)
Spongy Iris wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
keepit wrote:
What do you mean by "debt crash"? There is no such phrase in google.


Debt is the tool of the devil/democrat, to enslave hard working, patriotic Americans, to eventually turn them into mindless, spineless 'welfare' parasites. Google, is another tool of the devil/democrats. Anything that goes against the socialism agenda, is hard to find...


Can you think of a better way to get money into circulation other than debt?


Yes. Spend it. That's what circulation of money is (also called velocity). Debt is not required.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
Edited on 27-11-2020 10:34
27-11-2020 10:29
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15506)
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Where? Copy paste your explanation please. Is , "Welcome to the wonderful wacky world of fiat currency" the entirety of your explanation?


That, and the point that the Fed and the federal government are lying to you.

Believe it or not, we didn't HAVE anything like the Fed until 1913, when President Wilson (a Democrat) created it using a Democrat Congress. In 1934 President Roosevelt (another Democrat) forced everyone onto the fiat currency by outlawing ownership of gold, imposing VERY harsh penalties for anyone that did not comply.

That's when Fort Knox was built, to house all that stolen gold.

Today, Fort Knox is still there, and still has gold in it, but NONE of it belongs to the federal government. It is all owned by foreign governments that keep their gold there (such as Germany). The US over the years has frittered away their gold.


See this is what I'm talking about when I told you you trail off on irrelevant tangents!

We were talking about deposits of cash with the Federal Reserve, then you claim those deposits don't exist because the Federal Government doesn't own any gold at Fort Knox.

Try to stay on topic please. You are confusing 2 completely different kinds of deposits!

I never talked about deposits of cash with the Federal Reserve. YOU did.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
27-11-2020 10:30
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15506)
Spongy Iris wrote:
keepit wrote:
What do you mean by "debt crash"? There is no such phrase in google.


I think he's just talking about writing off debt.


You can't just write off the national debt. Those people expect to be paid back. You can't just hide from them.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
27-11-2020 10:33
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15506)
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
keepit wrote:
Gold would have very little value if we didn't pretend it was so valuable.

Gold has an industrial value as well.
keepit wrote:
It's the same with currency.

All money is valued according to the faith in that money.
keepit wrote:
Why pretend gold is so valuable?

Because the government can't just print it whenever they feel like it.
keepit wrote:
Valuable for what other than pretending? Currency is worth pretending it has value because it is so much more convenient than gold as a currency.

Gold is completely compatible with modern accounting methods and credit system. There is nothing inconvenient about gold at all as a currency, except to the government, which can no longer print it's way out of it's problems. It will have to contract.

This is a good thing.


If my math is correct, there is about 0.05 pounds of gold per person in the world which has been mined.

200000 tonnes ÷ 8000000000 people × 2000 pounds per tonne.

How many gold coins you think each person can get?

Irrelevant.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
27-11-2020 18:13
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(584)
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
keepit wrote:
What do you mean by "debt crash"? There is no such phrase in google.


Debt is the tool of the devil/democrat, to enslave hard working, patriotic Americans, to eventually turn them into mindless, spineless 'welfare' parasites. Google, is another tool of the devil/democrats. Anything that goes against the socialism agenda, is hard to find...


Can you think of a better way to get money into circulation other than debt?


Yes. Spend it. That's what circulation of money is (also called velocity). Debt is not required.


If you want to put NEW money into circulation, debt is required.

Do you want to change the rules so that money gets created as soon as somebody buys something?
27-11-2020 18:47
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(584)
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Where? Copy paste your explanation please. Is , "Welcome to the wonderful wacky world of fiat currency" the entirety of your explanation?


That, and the point that the Fed and the federal government are lying to you.

Believe it or not, we didn't HAVE anything like the Fed until 1913, when President Wilson (a Democrat) created it using a Democrat Congress. In 1934 President Roosevelt (another Democrat) forced everyone onto the fiat currency by outlawing ownership of gold, imposing VERY harsh penalties for anyone that did not comply.

That's when Fort Knox was built, to house all that stolen gold.

Today, Fort Knox is still there, and still has gold in it, but NONE of it belongs to the federal government. It is all owned by foreign governments that keep their gold there (such as Germany). The US over the years has frittered away their gold.


See this is what I'm talking about when I told you you trail off on irrelevant tangents!

We were talking about deposits of cash with the Federal Reserve, then you claim those deposits don't exist because the Federal Government doesn't own any gold at Fort Knox.

Try to stay on topic please. You are confusing 2 completely different kinds of deposits!

I never talked about deposits of cash with the Federal Reserve. YOU did.


You said the Federal Reserve needs to pay their debt.

I said debt is an asset for the Federal Reserve which pays them. Deposits are their liability.

Then you said the Federal Reserve has no deposits because The Federal government frittered away all their gold at Fort Knox.

You must be stoned dude.
27-11-2020 18:51
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(584)
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
keepit wrote:
What do you mean by "debt crash"? There is no such phrase in google.


I think he's just talking about writing off debt.


You can't just write off the national debt. Those people expect to be paid back. You can't just hide from them.


How about the $4.5 trillion of debt Uncle Sam has with the Federal Reserve? Who needs that paid back?
Edited on 27-11-2020 18:52
27-11-2020 18:57
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(584)
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
keepit wrote:
Gold would have very little value if we didn't pretend it was so valuable.

Gold has an industrial value as well.
keepit wrote:
It's the same with currency.

All money is valued according to the faith in that money.
keepit wrote:
Why pretend gold is so valuable?

Because the government can't just print it whenever they feel like it.
keepit wrote:
Valuable for what other than pretending? Currency is worth pretending it has value because it is so much more convenient than gold as a currency.

Gold is completely compatible with modern accounting methods and credit system. There is nothing inconvenient about gold at all as a currency, except to the government, which can no longer print it's way out of it's problems. It will have to contract.

This is a good thing.


If my math is correct, there is about 0.05 pounds of gold per person in the world which has been mined.

200000 tonnes ÷ 8000000000 people × 2000 pounds per tonne.

How many gold coins you think each person can get?

Irrelevant.


It is relevant to the conversation with you, because you say gold is money. There's not a lot of money to go around if gold is the only money, is there?
Edited on 27-11-2020 18:57
27-11-2020 20:24
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15506)
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
keepit wrote:
What do you mean by "debt crash"? There is no such phrase in google.


Debt is the tool of the devil/democrat, to enslave hard working, patriotic Americans, to eventually turn them into mindless, spineless 'welfare' parasites. Google, is another tool of the devil/democrats. Anything that goes against the socialism agenda, is hard to find...


Can you think of a better way to get money into circulation other than debt?


Yes. Spend it. That's what circulation of money is (also called velocity). Debt is not required.


If you want to put NEW money into circulation, debt is required.

Nope. No debt is required.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Do you want to change the rules so that money gets created as soon as somebody buys something?

No, but YOU seem to want to.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
27-11-2020 20:25
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15506)
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Where? Copy paste your explanation please. Is , "Welcome to the wonderful wacky world of fiat currency" the entirety of your explanation?


That, and the point that the Fed and the federal government are lying to you.

Believe it or not, we didn't HAVE anything like the Fed until 1913, when President Wilson (a Democrat) created it using a Democrat Congress. In 1934 President Roosevelt (another Democrat) forced everyone onto the fiat currency by outlawing ownership of gold, imposing VERY harsh penalties for anyone that did not comply.

That's when Fort Knox was built, to house all that stolen gold.

Today, Fort Knox is still there, and still has gold in it, but NONE of it belongs to the federal government. It is all owned by foreign governments that keep their gold there (such as Germany). The US over the years has frittered away their gold.


See this is what I'm talking about when I told you you trail off on irrelevant tangents!

We were talking about deposits of cash with the Federal Reserve, then you claim those deposits don't exist because the Federal Government doesn't own any gold at Fort Knox.

Try to stay on topic please. You are confusing 2 completely different kinds of deposits!

I never talked about deposits of cash with the Federal Reserve. YOU did.


You said the Federal Reserve needs to pay their debt.

Never said any such thing.
Spongy Iris wrote:
I said debt is an asset for the Federal Reserve which pays them. Deposits are their liability.

Never said that either.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Then you said the Federal Reserve has no deposits because The Federal government frittered away all their gold at Fort Knox.

Never said that either.
Spongy Iris wrote:
You must be stoned dude.

No, that must be YOU. You are hallucinating. Put down the bong, dude.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
27-11-2020 20:26
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15506)
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
keepit wrote:
What do you mean by "debt crash"? There is no such phrase in google.


I think he's just talking about writing off debt.


You can't just write off the national debt. Those people expect to be paid back. You can't just hide from them.


How about the $4.5 trillion of debt Uncle Sam has with the Federal Reserve? Who needs that paid back?

There is no $4.5 trillion in debt from the government to the Federal Reserve.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
27-11-2020 20:28
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15506)
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
keepit wrote:
Gold would have very little value if we didn't pretend it was so valuable.

Gold has an industrial value as well.
keepit wrote:
It's the same with currency.

All money is valued according to the faith in that money.
keepit wrote:
Why pretend gold is so valuable?

Because the government can't just print it whenever they feel like it.
keepit wrote:
Valuable for what other than pretending? Currency is worth pretending it has value because it is so much more convenient than gold as a currency.

Gold is completely compatible with modern accounting methods and credit system. There is nothing inconvenient about gold at all as a currency, except to the government, which can no longer print it's way out of it's problems. It will have to contract.

This is a good thing.


If my math is correct, there is about 0.05 pounds of gold per person in the world which has been mined.

200000 tonnes ÷ 8000000000 people × 2000 pounds per tonne.

How many gold coins you think each person can get?

Irrelevant.


It is relevant to the conversation with you, because you say gold is money. There's not a lot of money to go around if gold is the only money, is there?

I never said gold is the only money. I never said gold is money either. It can be, and it has in the past. But the only nation that currently uses gold as money is Iran.

There is certainly no reason why gold can't be used as money again.

You seem to have a lot of trouble paying attention.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
Edited on 27-11-2020 20:28
27-11-2020 21:07
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(584)
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
keepit wrote:
What do you mean by "debt crash"? There is no such phrase in google.


Debt is the tool of the devil/democrat, to enslave hard working, patriotic Americans, to eventually turn them into mindless, spineless 'welfare' parasites. Google, is another tool of the devil/democrats. Anything that goes against the socialism agenda, is hard to find...


Can you think of a better way to get money into circulation other than debt?


Yes. Spend it. That's what circulation of money is (also called velocity). Debt is not required.


If you want to put NEW money into circulation, debt is required.

Nope. No debt is required.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Do you want to change the rules so that money gets created as soon as somebody buys something?

No, but YOU seem to want to.


It is required if you want to participate in the global fiat money system.
27-11-2020 21:11
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(584)
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Where? Copy paste your explanation please. Is , "Welcome to the wonderful wacky world of fiat currency" the entirety of your explanation?


That, and the point that the Fed and the federal government are lying to you.

Believe it or not, we didn't HAVE anything like the Fed until 1913, when President Wilson (a Democrat) created it using a Democrat Congress. In 1934 President Roosevelt (another Democrat) forced everyone onto the fiat currency by outlawing ownership of gold, imposing VERY harsh penalties for anyone that did not comply.

That's when Fort Knox was built, to house all that stolen gold.

Today, Fort Knox is still there, and still has gold in it, but NONE of it belongs to the federal government. It is all owned by foreign governments that keep their gold there (such as Germany). The US over the years has frittered away their gold.


See this is what I'm talking about when I told you you trail off on irrelevant tangents!

We were talking about deposits of cash with the Federal Reserve, then you claim those deposits don't exist because the Federal Government doesn't own any gold at Fort Knox.

Try to stay on topic please. You are confusing 2 completely different kinds of deposits!

I never talked about deposits of cash with the Federal Reserve. YOU did.


You said the Federal Reserve needs to pay their debt.

Never said any such thing.
Spongy Iris wrote:
I said debt is an asset for the Federal Reserve which pays them. Deposits are their liability.

Never said that either.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Then you said the Federal Reserve has no deposits because The Federal government frittered away all their gold at Fort Knox.

Never said that either.
Spongy Iris wrote:
You must be stoned dude.

No, that must be YOU. You are hallucinating. Put down the bong, dude.


I have summarized the conversation correctly.
27-11-2020 21:14
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(584)
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
keepit wrote:
What do you mean by "debt crash"? There is no such phrase in google.


I think he's just talking about writing off debt.


You can't just write off the national debt. Those people expect to be paid back. You can't just hide from them.


How about the $4.5 trillion of debt Uncle Sam has with the Federal Reserve? Who needs that paid back?

There is no $4.5 trillion in debt from the government to the Federal Reserve.


According to the Federal Reserve's balance sheet, such debt does exist.

Add this to your lengthy list of things reported to exist which you deny the existence of.
Edited on 27-11-2020 21:24
27-11-2020 21:21
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(584)
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
keepit wrote:
Gold would have very little value if we didn't pretend it was so valuable.

Gold has an industrial value as well.
keepit wrote:
It's the same with currency.

All money is valued according to the faith in that money.
keepit wrote:
Why pretend gold is so valuable?

Because the government can't just print it whenever they feel like it.
keepit wrote:
Valuable for what other than pretending? Currency is worth pretending it has value because it is so much more convenient than gold as a currency.

Gold is completely compatible with modern accounting methods and credit system. There is nothing inconvenient about gold at all as a currency, except to the government, which can no longer print it's way out of it's problems. It will have to contract.

This is a good thing.


If my math is correct, there is about 0.05 pounds of gold per person in the world which has been mined.

200000 tonnes ÷ 8000000000 people × 2000 pounds per tonne.

How many gold coins you think each person can get?

Irrelevant.


It is relevant to the conversation with you, because you say gold is money. There's not a lot of money to go around if gold is the only money, is there?

I never said gold is the only money. I never said gold is money either. It can be, and it has in the past. But the only nation that currently uses gold as money is Iran.

There is certainly no reason why gold can't be used as money again.

You seem to have a lot of trouble paying attention.


Your comments indicate gold is quite irrelevant to any forward looking conversation about economics.
Edited on 27-11-2020 21:23
28-11-2020 03:12
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15506)
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
keepit wrote:
Gold would have very little value if we didn't pretend it was so valuable.

Gold has an industrial value as well.
keepit wrote:
It's the same with currency.

All money is valued according to the faith in that money.
keepit wrote:
Why pretend gold is so valuable?

Because the government can't just print it whenever they feel like it.
keepit wrote:
Valuable for what other than pretending? Currency is worth pretending it has value because it is so much more convenient than gold as a currency.

Gold is completely compatible with modern accounting methods and credit system. There is nothing inconvenient about gold at all as a currency, except to the government, which can no longer print it's way out of it's problems. It will have to contract.

This is a good thing.


If my math is correct, there is about 0.05 pounds of gold per person in the world which has been mined.

200000 tonnes ÷ 8000000000 people × 2000 pounds per tonne.

How many gold coins you think each person can get?

Irrelevant.


It is relevant to the conversation with you, because you say gold is money. There's not a lot of money to go around if gold is the only money, is there?

I never said gold is the only money. I never said gold is money either. It can be, and it has in the past. But the only nation that currently uses gold as money is Iran.

There is certainly no reason why gold can't be used as money again.

You seem to have a lot of trouble paying attention.


Your comments indicate gold is quite irrelevant to any forward looking conversation about economics.

Gold is relevant. It's current trading price is $1788.27/oz (20.12.27.a.0120utc). You can ignore it if you like, but it can be used a money, and it has several important industrial uses.

Silver is more common for day to day purchases, and always has been.

These two metals are the only legal currency in the United States. That law has never been changed. It is still in the Constitution, unmodified.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
Edited on 28-11-2020 03:20
28-11-2020 03:22
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15506)
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
keepit wrote:
What do you mean by "debt crash"? There is no such phrase in google.


Debt is the tool of the devil/democrat, to enslave hard working, patriotic Americans, to eventually turn them into mindless, spineless 'welfare' parasites. Google, is another tool of the devil/democrats. Anything that goes against the socialism agenda, is hard to find...


Can you think of a better way to get money into circulation other than debt?


Yes. Spend it. That's what circulation of money is (also called velocity). Debt is not required.


If you want to put NEW money into circulation, debt is required.

Nope. No debt is required.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Do you want to change the rules so that money gets created as soon as somebody buys something?

No, but YOU seem to want to.


It is required if you want to participate in the global fiat money system.

No, it isn't.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
28-11-2020 03:33
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15506)
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
keepit wrote:
What do you mean by "debt crash"? There is no such phrase in google.


I think he's just talking about writing off debt.


You can't just write off the national debt. Those people expect to be paid back. You can't just hide from them.


How about the $4.5 trillion of debt Uncle Sam has with the Federal Reserve? Who needs that paid back?

There is no $4.5 trillion in debt from the government to the Federal Reserve.


According to the Federal Reserve's balance sheet, such debt does exist.

Nope. No such debt.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Add this to your lengthy list of things reported to exist which you deny the existence of.

Fine. I also deny Global Warming, the Big Bang theory, the need to panic about Covid19, the authority of a federal or State government to seize guns or any other weapon, socialism including fascism, the Church of No God, the Keynesian model of economics, election fraud and other crimes, to name a few. They all exist, and i deny them all as any kind of truth.

I support the Constitution of the United States and of the State of Washington. I support theories of science, the use of logic and mathematics, the Austrian model of economics, the Theory of the Continuum, the Theory of Creation, Christianity, and fair elections.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
28-11-2020 03:41
keepit
★★★★★
(2235)
ITN,
What's the theory of the continuum? Never heard of that.
28-11-2020 04:27
HarveyH55Profile picture★★★★★
(3368)
Did a city in Washington, allow terrorist to loot and burn, run the police out of their own precinct, and set up camp, for months last summer? How can you support a state constitution, that refuses to send in the National Guard to make an example of these sort of democrats. You've got to figure, that they got away with it, in one city. They'll do it again, maybe try for the entire state next time (if the haven't already).
28-11-2020 11:57
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15506)
keepit wrote:
ITN,
What's the theory of the continuum? Never heard of that.


Actually, you have...in the Bible.

It the theory (a nonscientific one, like the Theory of the Big Bang) that the Universe has always been, and always will be. There is no beginning, there is no end.

If God has no beginning and no end, then the Universe he is in does also.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
28-11-2020 12:16
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15506)
HarveyH55 wrote:
Did a city in Washington, allow terrorist to loot and burn, run the police out of their own precinct, and set up camp, for months last summer? How can you support a state constitution, that refuses to send in the National Guard to make an example of these sort of democrats. You've got to figure, that they got away with it, in one city. They'll do it again, maybe try for the entire state next time (if the haven't already).


The constitution of the State of Washington does NOT give King Inslee authority to support violent factions that seize property. Neither does it give Mayor Durkan any authority to do so.
It does NOT give King Inslee nor Mayor Durkan authority to support violence factions.
It does NOT give King Inslee authority to require masks, shutter businesses, or prevent religious services. King Inslee is also violating the Constitution of the United States, by ignoring the 14th amendment.

Down with King Inslee and Queen Durkan.

These violent factions talk big, but they do not have the capability to mount a large scale attack. They barely managed to hold on to six blocks of a city for a month or so.

You should read the Art of War some time. It describes why mounting a widespread attack like this must fail. There are just too many people with homes to protect, families to protect, kids to protect; to allow violent factions to come into their neighborhood unchallenged.

Yes. These neighbors are armed. So am I.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
28-11-2020 21:35
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(584)
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
keepit wrote:
Gold would have very little value if we didn't pretend it was so valuable.

Gold has an industrial value as well.
keepit wrote:
It's the same with currency.

All money is valued according to the faith in that money.
keepit wrote:
Why pretend gold is so valuable?

Because the government can't just print it whenever they feel like it.
keepit wrote:
Valuable for what other than pretending? Currency is worth pretending it has value because it is so much more convenient than gold as a currency.

Gold is completely compatible with modern accounting methods and credit system. There is nothing inconvenient about gold at all as a currency, except to the government, which can no longer print it's way out of it's problems. It will have to contract.

This is a good thing.


If my math is correct, there is about 0.05 pounds of gold per person in the world which has been mined.

200000 tonnes ÷ 8000000000 people × 2000 pounds per tonne.

How many gold coins you think each person can get?

Irrelevant.


It is relevant to the conversation with you, because you say gold is money. There's not a lot of money to go around if gold is the only money, is there?

I never said gold is the only money. I never said gold is money either. It can be, and it has in the past. But the only nation that currently uses gold as money is Iran.

There is certainly no reason why gold can't be used as money again.

You seem to have a lot of trouble paying attention.


Your comments indicate gold is quite irrelevant to any forward looking conversation about economics.

Gold is relevant. It's current trading price is $1788.27/oz (20.12.27.a.0120utc). You can ignore it if you like, but it can be used a money, and it has several important industrial uses.

Silver is more common for day to day purchases, and always has been.

These two metals are the only legal currency in the United States. That law has never been changed. It is still in the Constitution, unmodified.


Gold and silver are relevant for many conversations, but not conversations about economics anymore.

"Congress never bothered to define lawful money when it first used the term. However, the line of thinking that it is defined by the constitution as only gold or silver coin is incorrect. The constitution makes no such definition.

Congress may declare anything it wishes a legal tender. And as history shows, it certainly has."

-- Debunking the Federal Reserve Conspiracy Theories (and other financial myths) by Edward Flaherty
28-11-2020 21:41
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(584)
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
keepit wrote:
What do you mean by "debt crash"? There is no such phrase in google.


Debt is the tool of the devil/democrat, to enslave hard working, patriotic Americans, to eventually turn them into mindless, spineless 'welfare' parasites. Google, is another tool of the devil/democrats. Anything that goes against the socialism agenda, is hard to find...


Can you think of a better way to get money into circulation other than debt?


Yes. Spend it. That's what circulation of money is (also called velocity). Debt is not required.


If you want to put NEW money into circulation, debt is required.

Nope. No debt is required.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Do you want to change the rules so that money gets created as soon as somebody buys something?

No, but YOU seem to want to.


It is required if you want to participate in the global fiat money system.

No, it isn't.


Hey Dumbo, How does money get created?
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