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Simplified Economics



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28-11-2020 23:02
keepit
★★★★★
(2235)
There is much more gold available on earth than that required for industrial purposes. If gold was valued based on its industrial value it wouldn't have much value.
Any money, gold included, can be considered fiat money because it is only as valuable (other than industrial value) as people consider it to be..
28-11-2020 23:09
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(585)
keepit wrote:
There is much more gold available on earth than that required for industrial purposes. If gold was valued based on its industrial value it wouldn't have much value.
Any money, gold included, can be considered fiat money because it is only as valuable (other than industrial value) as people consider it to be..


Hey keepit, I've been wondering if drinking small quantities of colloidal gold has good health benefits... It's easy to order online, but I haven't tried it yet.
28-11-2020 23:57
keepit
★★★★★
(2235)
I don't know much about it but i think it is not good for your kidneys.
29-11-2020 02:17
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(9190)
keepit wrote: If gold was valued based on its industrial value it wouldn't have much value.

Do you think steel has much value?

keepit wrote: Any money, gold included, can be considered fiat money because it is only as valuable (other than industrial value) as people consider it to be..

That was stupid. Fiat currency, by definition, has no intrinsic value. Gold has intrinsic value. Food has intrinsic value. KY Jelly has intrinsic value.

Any thought that you might be due to get something right was just a false alarm.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
29-11-2020 02:19
keepit
★★★★★
(2235)
You're not making much progress IBD.
29-11-2020 03:26
HarveyH55Profile picture★★★★★
(3400)
Value, is entirely based on wants and needs, highly subjective. Ever been to an auction? There is usually a silly low bid to start, and sometimes if that's the only bid, the item is withdrawn. More valuable to the seller. Of course, many items actually sell for more, than someone would have to pay 'new', if they shopped around a little. Great for the seller. Guess the bidder got good value, since they 'won' something, probably the first time in their life...

You take the family out to diner, and arrive 10-15 minutes before the time you reserved your table. Sort of last minute, but the grandkids left their Holy mask at home. You don't have any backup plan, and the nearest place is selling Dollar Store brand disposable masks for $10 each. You know, that if Dollar Store was open, and you had time, you could get a whole box of them for $2.00. Would you pay the $10 per mask, so you can still make your reservation? Leave the grandkids in the car, to starve, or worse. Or just save some money, and cancel the whole thing? How much do you value spending time with your family?

There seem to be a holiday shortage of toilet paper (weird timing). You probably have enough to get by for a while, unless people stop by to visit much. Considering the holidays, you are a little concerned though. Store shelves been empty for a week, even when you go really early in the day. You see a guy parked on the side of the road, truck bed full of 4-packs, he's selling for $20 each. Do you keep checking the stores, until you get lucky, or do you pay the $20, on the sure thing?
29-11-2020 04:19
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(9190)
keepit wrote:You're not making much progress IBD.

Your confusion runs deep.




.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
29-11-2020 07:50
keepit
★★★★★
(2235)
ITN,
Could you explain your belief that the universe had no beginning. Include some evidence if you have it.
29-11-2020 10:10
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15559)
Spongy Iris wrote:
Gold and silver are relevant for many conversations, but not conversations about economics anymore.
WRONG. Gold and silver are still part of economics today.
Spongy Iris wrote:
"Congress never bothered to define lawful money when it first used the term. However, the line of thinking that it is defined by the constitution as only gold or silver coin is incorrect. The constitution makes no such definition.

WRONG. See Article I, Section 10.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Congress may declare anything it wishes a legal tender. And as history shows, it certainly has."

No, it can't.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
29-11-2020 10:11
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15559)
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
keepit wrote:
What do you mean by "debt crash"? There is no such phrase in google.


Debt is the tool of the devil/democrat, to enslave hard working, patriotic Americans, to eventually turn them into mindless, spineless 'welfare' parasites. Google, is another tool of the devil/democrats. Anything that goes against the socialism agenda, is hard to find...


Can you think of a better way to get money into circulation other than debt?


Yes. Spend it. That's what circulation of money is (also called velocity). Debt is not required.


If you want to put NEW money into circulation, debt is required.

Nope. No debt is required.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Do you want to change the rules so that money gets created as soon as somebody buys something?

No, but YOU seem to want to.


It is required if you want to participate in the global fiat money system.

No, it isn't.


Hey Dumbo, How does money get created?


The Federal Reserve 'prints' it by raising M1 or M2.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
29-11-2020 10:15
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15559)
keepit wrote:
There is much more gold available on earth than that required for industrial purposes. If gold was valued based on its industrial value it wouldn't have much value.

It's current value is $1788.70 (20.11.29.s.0821utc).
keepit wrote:
Any money, gold included, can be considered fiat money because it is only as valuable (other than industrial value) as people consider it to be..

Nope. People choose to use gold and/or silver as money.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
29-11-2020 10:21
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15559)
IBdaMann wrote:
keepit wrote: If gold was valued based on its industrial value it wouldn't have much value.

Do you think steel has much value?
Iron's current price is $119.25/metric ton (20.11.29.s.0821utc). Steel is an alloy that varies in price depending on the alloy mixture.
keepit wrote: Any money, gold included, can be considered fiat money because it is only as valuable (other than industrial value) as people consider it to be..

That was stupid. Fiat currency, by definition, has no intrinsic value. Gold has intrinsic value. Food has intrinsic value. KY Jelly has intrinsic value.

Any thought that you might be due to get something right was just a false alarm.

.

Quite right.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
29-11-2020 10:22
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15559)
keepit wrote:
ITN,
Could you explain your belief that the universe had no beginning. Include some evidence if you have it.


See the Bible.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
30-11-2020 16:56
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★★
(2107)
keepit wrote:
ITN,
Could you explain your belief that the universe had no beginning.

What about the belief would you like to be explained? The theory that I'm assuming is being referred to here simply posits that the universe has always existed, and will always exist. (Theory of the Continuum).

keepit wrote:
Include some evidence if you have it.

The Holy Bible is evidence of this theory.

It also makes sense, to me anyway, that IF God's existence were eternal (as claimed in the Holy Bible), THEN the universe that God is a part of (and that he created many other things within, as described in the early chapters of Genesis) would likewise be eternal.

Of course, there are other theories that have been posited and that are likewise unfalsifiable.
Edited on 30-11-2020 17:17
01-12-2020 04:25
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(585)
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
keepit wrote:
What do you mean by "debt crash"? There is no such phrase in google.


Debt is the tool of the devil/democrat, to enslave hard working, patriotic Americans, to eventually turn them into mindless, spineless 'welfare' parasites. Google, is another tool of the devil/democrats. Anything that goes against the socialism agenda, is hard to find...


Can you think of a better way to get money into circulation other than debt?


Yes. Spend it. That's what circulation of money is (also called velocity). Debt is not required.


If you want to put NEW money into circulation, debt is required.

Nope. No debt is required.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Do you want to change the rules so that money gets created as soon as somebody buys something?

No, but YOU seem to want to.


It is required if you want to participate in the global fiat money system.

No, it isn't.


Hey Dumbo, How does money get created?


The Federal Reserve 'prints' it by raising M1 or M2.


M1 and M2 money have several definitions, ranging from narrow to broad. M1 = coins and currency in circulation + checkable (demand) deposit + traveler's checks. M2 = M1 + savings deposits + money market funds + certificates of deposit + other time deposits.

This money gets printed when people get loans / debt. Otherwise banks wouldn't know how much to print.
Edited on 01-12-2020 04:26
01-12-2020 04:38
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(585)
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Gold and silver are relevant for many conversations, but not conversations about economics anymore.
WRONG. Gold and silver are still part of economics today.
Spongy Iris wrote:
"Congress never bothered to define lawful money when it first used the term. However, the line of thinking that it is defined by the constitution as only gold or silver coin is incorrect. The constitution makes no such definition.

WRONG. See Article I, Section 10.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Congress may declare anything it wishes a legal tender. And as history shows, it certainly has."

No, it can't.


Everything bought and sold is part of economics. Gold represents very little of everything that is bought and sold.

There is not enough gold and silver in the world which has reportedly been mined to make enough coins to circulate as legal tender in the global economy. 0.45 pounds per person, most of it silver.

They call people like you "gold bugs." President Nixon completely abandoned the gold standard in 1971.
Edited on 01-12-2020 04:48
01-12-2020 11:30
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15559)
Spongy Iris wrote:
M1 and M2 money have several definitions, ranging from narrow to broad.

Nope. They have specific definitions, defined by the Federal Reserve.
Spongy Iris wrote:
M1 = coins and currency in circulation + checkable (demand) deposit + traveler's checks. M2 = M1 + savings deposits + money market funds + certificates of deposit + other time deposits.

Reasonably close to their specific definition.
Spongy Iris wrote:
This money gets printed when people get loans / debt.

No. It is just printed.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Otherwise banks wouldn't know how much to print.

Banks do not print money.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
01-12-2020 11:33
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15559)
Spongy Iris wrote:
Everything bought and sold is part of economics.

Yup.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Gold represents very little of everything that is bought and sold.

Irrelevant. It is still bought and sold. It is part of economics.
Spongy Iris wrote:
There is not enough gold and silver in the world which has reportedly been mined to make enough coins to circulate as legal tender in the global economy.

Argument from randU fallacy. It doesn't matter how much gold is in the world.
Spongy Iris wrote:
0.45 pounds per person, most of it silver.

Argument from randU fallacy.
Spongy Iris wrote:
They call people like you "gold bugs."

Who are 'they'? Why are 'they' important?
Spongy Iris wrote:
President Nixon completely abandoned the gold standard in 1971.

...and the dollar has fallen rapidly because of it.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
01-12-2020 11:48
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(9190)
keepit wrote:ITN, Could you explain your belief that the universe had no beginning.

I take it that you don't know what "self explanatory" means, although I'm not surprised.


keepit wrote: Include some evidence if you have it.

What evidence do you seek? ... a postmarked letter dated "forever ago"? Perhaps you want a link to a YouTube video taken of time having formed?

Just post your list and I'll get right on it.




.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
01-12-2020 16:50
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★★
(2107)
I like the new 'keepit' graphic.
01-12-2020 17:18
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(585)
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
M1 and M2 money have several definitions, ranging from narrow to broad.

Nope. They have specific definitions, defined by the Federal Reserve.
Spongy Iris wrote:
M1 = coins and currency in circulation + checkable (demand) deposit + traveler's checks. M2 = M1 + savings deposits + money market funds + certificates of deposit + other time deposits.

Reasonably close to their specific definition.
Spongy Iris wrote:
This money gets printed when people get loans / debt.

No. It is just printed.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Otherwise banks wouldn't know how much to print.

Banks do not print money.


You are being deliberately ignorant again. Banks create / print money when people get debt. That is how it is determined how much to print.

If you get a mortgage to buy property, banks print that money.
01-12-2020 17:26
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(585)
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Everything bought and sold is part of economics.

Yup.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Gold represents very little of everything that is bought and sold.

Irrelevant. It is still bought and sold. It is part of economics.
Spongy Iris wrote:
There is not enough gold and silver in the world which has reportedly been mined to make enough coins to circulate as legal tender in the global economy.

Argument from randU fallacy. It doesn't matter how much gold is in the world.
Spongy Iris wrote:
0.45 pounds per person, most of it silver.

Argument from randU fallacy.
Spongy Iris wrote:
They call people like you "gold bugs."

Who are 'they'? Why are 'they' important?
Spongy Iris wrote:
President Nixon completely abandoned the gold standard in 1971.

...and the dollar has fallen rapidly because of it.


Oh I see. Whenever someone calculates anything The Parrot can't interpret, he just squawks, Randu fallacy.

The dollar has fallen because of inflation, which I already defined. You are being deliberately ignorant again.

I wish they had a mute button in this forum.
01-12-2020 17:40
James___
★★★★★
(4523)
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Gold and silver are relevant for many conversations, but not conversations about economics anymore.
WRONG. Gold and silver are still part of economics today.
Spongy Iris wrote:
"Congress never bothered to define lawful money when it first used the term. However, the line of thinking that it is defined by the constitution as only gold or silver coin is incorrect. The constitution makes no such definition.

WRONG. See Article I, Section 10.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Congress may declare anything it wishes a legal tender. And as history shows, it certainly has."

No, it can't.


Everything bought and sold is part of economics. Gold represents very little of everything that is bought and sold.

There is not enough gold and silver in the world which has reportedly been mined to make enough coins to circulate as legal tender in the global economy. 0.45 pounds per person, most of it silver.

They call people like you "gold bugs." President Nixon completely abandoned the gold standard in 1971.



Gold is used in many things. It's commercial use most likely influences it's cost.
In reading about the Constitution;
In Article I of the Constitution, the Framers vest the legislative authority of the United States government in a bicameral Congress, and over the ten sections of the Article they systematically flesh out the structure, duties, and powers of that Congress.

Yet the Senate Majority Leader alone has certain powers. This then prevents the 2 Houses of Congress from being bicameral. This readily demonstrates that the 2 houses are not equal which the Constitution requires.

What Senator McConnell Says;
that he alone decides what bills get considered on the Senate floor.

At the same time, he and his wife were given over $30 Million by a Chinese controlled shipping company. If his father-in-law passes away first, he stands to inherit a significant ownership interest in that company.
It's sad but it seems that Senator McConnell wishes to take the US back to colonial times when we were loyal British subjects. After all, the Crown in England had it's Parliament as well. And today we have Senator McConnell and his parliament.

Either we need a 3rd party to break up party line legislation or a simple majority should not be considered representative of over 340 million people. Colonial America had a population of 2.4 million people.
01-12-2020 17:40
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(9190)
Spongy Iris wrote:You are being deliberately ignorant again.

Into the Night is absolutely correct ... and you are a total moron. I might have mentioned that previously.

Spongy Iris wrote: Banks create / print money when people get debt.

Incorrect. Only Congress has the authority to create money, and that occurs specifically through the Treasury who authorizes crediting of that money to the public. The Federal Reserve is the Treasury's interface for accomplishing this by creating and crediting specific accounts as necessary ... and also by instructing the Bureau of Engraving to physically print money as needed.

Your absurd claim that banks somehow engage in counterfeiting is stupid.

Spongy Iris wrote: If you get a mortgage to buy property, banks print that money.

Too funny. You should stop pretending to participate in this discussion?

The banks lend money that they already have, that they have acquired from depositors or from borrowing from other banks.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
01-12-2020 18:09
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★★
(2107)
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
M1 and M2 money have several definitions, ranging from narrow to broad.

Nope. They have specific definitions, defined by the Federal Reserve.
Spongy Iris wrote:
M1 = coins and currency in circulation + checkable (demand) deposit + traveler's checks. M2 = M1 + savings deposits + money market funds + certificates of deposit + other time deposits.

Reasonably close to their specific definition.
Spongy Iris wrote:
This money gets printed when people get loans / debt.

No. It is just printed.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Otherwise banks wouldn't know how much to print.

Banks do not print money.


You are being deliberately ignorant again. Banks create / print money when people get debt. That is how it is determined how much to print.

If you get a mortgage to buy property, banks print that money.

Banks do not print money, dude...
01-12-2020 18:09
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(585)
IBdaMann wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:You are being deliberately ignorant again.

Into the Night is absolutely correct ... and you are a total moron. I might have mentioned that previously.

Spongy Iris wrote: Banks create / print money when people get debt.

Incorrect. Only Congress has the authority to create money, and that occurs specifically through the Treasury who authorizes crediting of that money to the public. The Federal Reserve is the Treasury's interface for accomplishing this by creating and crediting specific accounts as necessary ... and also by instructing the Bureau of Engraving to physically print money as needed.

Your absurd claim that banks somehow engage in counterfeiting is stupid.

Spongy Iris wrote: If you get a mortgage to buy property, banks print that money.

Too funny. You should stop pretending to participate in this discussion?

The banks lend money that they already have, that they have acquired from depositors or from borrowing from other banks.


.


Banks do not lend money they already have deposited.

Do you know what a Reserve Requirement is oh smart one?

As announced on March 15, 2020, the Board reduced reserve requirement ratios to zero percent effective March 26, 2020. This action eliminated reserve requirements for all depository institutions.

It used to be a rule of thumb that if a bank had $1 million in deposits it could lend $10 million. That is a 10% Reserve requirement.

As you can see on the Federal Reserve's website, Reserve requirements are now zero.

It's not counterfeit. It's based on whether or not somebody qualifies for a loan, which is based on how much somebody can sell.

Congress doesn't screen loan applications.
Edited on 01-12-2020 18:15
01-12-2020 18:14
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★★
(2107)
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Everything bought and sold is part of economics.

Yup.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Gold represents very little of everything that is bought and sold.

Irrelevant. It is still bought and sold. It is part of economics.
Spongy Iris wrote:
There is not enough gold and silver in the world which has reportedly been mined to make enough coins to circulate as legal tender in the global economy.

Argument from randU fallacy. It doesn't matter how much gold is in the world.
Spongy Iris wrote:
0.45 pounds per person, most of it silver.

Argument from randU fallacy.
Spongy Iris wrote:
They call people like you "gold bugs."

Who are 'they'? Why are 'they' important?
Spongy Iris wrote:
President Nixon completely abandoned the gold standard in 1971.

...and the dollar has fallen rapidly because of it.


Oh I see. Whenever someone calculates anything The Parrot can't interpret, he just squawks, Randu fallacy.

You don't get it... He is not the parrot... YOU are the parrot. He is squashing you and your parroted mantras, for fun...

Stop committing the randU fallacy and he will stop calling you out for it...

Spongy Iris wrote:
The dollar has fallen because of inflation, which I already defined. You are being deliberately ignorant again.

No, you just keep saying incorrect shit and he needs to keep correcting your mistakes...

Spongy Iris wrote:
I wish they had a mute button in this forum.

Typical lefty... only wishes to splash around in the kiddie pool rather than swim with the big boys... Oh well...
01-12-2020 18:54
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(9190)
Spongy Iris wrote:Banks do not lend money they already have deposited.

Yes they do. That is exactly what they lend.

Spongy Iris wrote:Do you know what a Reserve Requirement is oh smart one?

Yes I do. Are you asking me to explain it to you?

Spongy Iris wrote:It used to be a rule of thumb that if a bank had $1 million in deposits it could lend $10 million. That is a 10% Reserve requirement.

You have that backwards. If a bank had $10,000,000 in deposits it could lend $9,000,000 while keeping $1,000,000 cash/liquid assets on hand to meet a 10% reserve requirement. This was to protect the financial system from runs on banks.


Now you know.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
01-12-2020 21:21
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(585)
IBdaMann wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:Banks do not lend money they already have deposited.

Yes they do. That is exactly what they lend.

Spongy Iris wrote:Do you know what a Reserve Requirement is oh smart one?

Yes I do. Are you asking me to explain it to you?

Spongy Iris wrote:It used to be a rule of thumb that if a bank had $1 million in deposits it could lend $10 million. That is a 10% Reserve requirement.

You have that backwards. If a bank had $10,000,000 in deposits it could lend $9,000,000 while keeping $1,000,000 cash/liquid assets on hand to meet a 10% reserve requirement. This was to protect the financial system from runs on banks.


Now you know.


.


You'll have to excuse my clumsy explanation. I forgot to incorporate fractional reserve lending into my comments. AND SO DID YOU.

You explained Reserve requirements correctly and I did not.

However I am correct that banks can lend way more than they have on deposit, typically 10 times more, as I said.

In a fractional reserve system, only a fraction of a bank's deposits needs to be held in cash or in a commercial bank's deposit account at the central bank. The magnitude of this fraction is specified by the reserve requirement, the reciprocal of which indicates the multiple of reserves that banks are able to lend out. If the reserve requirement is 10% (i.e., 0.1) then the multiplier is 10, meaning banks are able to lend out 10 times more than their reserves.

It is intriguing you would choose to correct this minor mistake about reserve requirements, but omit any further explanation about fractional reserve lending, which basically confirms what I said (in a slightly more complicated fashion).
02-12-2020 02:21
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(9190)
Spongy Iris wrote:You explained Reserve requirements correctly and I did not.

You are welcome.

Spongy Iris wrote:However I am correct that banks can lend way more than they have on deposit, typically 10 times more, as I said.

Nope, you are egregiously mistaken. A bank can only lend what it can get, either through deposits or loans from other banks ... or in some cases, capital investment.

Your mistaken notion has banks effectively counterfeiting money. That does not happen; it cannot happen.

We're done here.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
02-12-2020 03:57
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(585)
IBdaMann wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:You explained Reserve requirements correctly and I did not.

You are welcome.

Spongy Iris wrote:However I am correct that banks can lend way more than they have on deposit, typically 10 times more, as I said.

Nope, you are egregiously mistaken. A bank can only lend what it can get, either through deposits or loans from other banks ... or in some cases, capital investment.

Your mistaken notion has banks effectively counterfeiting money. That does not happen; it cannot happen.

We're done here.

.


Ya a bank can loan out whatever is on deposit now, since there is 0% Reserve requirement.

I mistated earlier when I said they could loan out 10 times more than deposited. Put it in your signature.

But that's not even the point of this argument, which is that debt creates money.

Alan Holmes, a former senior vice president of the New York Federal Reserve Bank, wrote in 1969, "in the real world banks extend credit, creating deposits in the process, and look for the reserves later."

When a bank makes a loan, there are two corresponding entries that are made on its balance sheet, one on the assets side and one on the liabilities side. The loan counts as an asset to the bank and it is simultaneously offset by a newly created deposit, which is a liability of the bank to the depositor holder.

Loans actually create deposits.
02-12-2020 04:51
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(9190)
Spongy Iris wrote:But that's not even the point of this argument, which is that debt creates money.

Nope. Only Congress can authorize the creation of money. No bank can "authorize" the creation of money and no bank can accomplish the creation of money, not by lending, not by anything.

A bank is just like a person. If you hire my son to mow your lawn for $40 and when he finishes you owe him $40. You have now incurred a debt of $40. No money has been created.

Spongy Iris wrote: When a bank makes a loan, there are two corresponding entries that are made on its balance sheet, one on the assets side and one on the liabilities side.

I'm pretty good at accounting. I know how it works.

Accounting does not create money; it helps people make better decisions.

Spongy Iris wrote: The loan counts as an asset to the bank and it is simultaneously offset by a newly created deposit, which is a liability of the bank to the depositor holder.

And the depositor has a symetrical ledger entry of an equivalently-valued deposit credit balanced by an equivalent debit entry to "cash in hand."

Spongy Iris wrote:Loans actually create deposits.

No. Loans create transactions.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
02-12-2020 07:19
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(585)
IBdaMann wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:But that's not even the point of this argument, which is that debt creates money.

Nope. Only Congress can authorize the creation of money. No bank can "authorize" the creation of money and no bank can accomplish the creation of money, not by lending, not by anything.

A bank is just like a person. If you hire my son to mow your lawn for $40 and when he finishes you owe him $40. You have now incurred a debt of $40. No money has been created.

Spongy Iris wrote: When a bank makes a loan, there are two corresponding entries that are made on its balance sheet, one on the assets side and one on the liabilities side.

I'm pretty good at accounting. I know how it works.

Accounting does not create money; it helps people make better decisions.

Spongy Iris wrote: The loan counts as an asset to the bank and it is simultaneously offset by a newly created deposit, which is a liability of the bank to the depositor holder.

And the depositor has a symetrical ledger entry of an equivalently-valued deposit credit balanced by an equivalent debit entry to "cash in hand."

Spongy Iris wrote:Loans actually create deposits.

No. Loans create transactions.

.


If your son bought a lawnmower with a credit card from a commercial bank, he would be creating money, when none existed before that. The cash would go to the lawnmower seller. Once your son pays off his debt, after mowing some lawns, the cash is destroyed. If he gets hit with late fees and or interest, before he can pay all the debt, that goes to the bank's reserves

Congress creates money when they go into debt to pay for public services and public infrastructure.

No one agency is creating all of a nation's money. Lots of banks are processing lots of loan applications, or buying government bonds.

Can you explain another way which money can be created?
02-12-2020 07:24
keepit
★★★★★
(2235)
The treasury legally has the authority to coin money. I think they have the legal ability to produce paper money as well. I'd like to see them produce money and send it to foreign creditors and then be done with them.

The world can stand some inflation. There is a significant threat of disinflation or even deflation.
Edited on 02-12-2020 07:26
02-12-2020 17:02
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★★
(2107)
Spongy Iris wrote:
But that's not even the point of this argument, which is that debt creates money.

No, it doesn't. Only Congress can authorize the creation of money. Also, say that Bob performs a service for Jim. After the service has been performed, Jim is now indebted to Bob. No money has been created in the process.

Spongy Iris wrote:
When a bank makes a loan, there are two corresponding entries that are made on its balance sheet, one on the assets side and one on the liabilities side.

The balance sheet is a financial statement (IOW, a "report"), not a journal or a ledger. There aren't any "entries".

I am an accountant (although I am much more familiar and practiced with the 'accounts receivable' aspect of accounting than I am with other aspects), and I can tell you first hand that I have never created money. I've received it... I've counted it... I've deposited it... but I've never created it.

Spongy Iris wrote:
The loan counts as an asset to the bank and it is simultaneously offset by a newly created deposit, which is a liability of the bank to the depositor holder.

Yeah, and the depositor has corresponding asset and liability entries in their own ledgers. I'm not sure what your point is...

Spongy Iris wrote:
Loans actually create deposits.

Wrong. They create transactions.
Edited on 02-12-2020 17:03
02-12-2020 17:24
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(9190)
Spongy Iris wrote: If your son bought a lawnmower with a credit card from a commercial bank, he would be creating money, when none existed before that.

Incorrect. No money is created. Existing money simply shuffles around.

Scenario:

* My son has $200 in his Bank of America checking account
* Chase Bank has $13 Billion in cash
* Mastercard has a global financial network
* Local Store has a lawn mower

Step 1: My son enters the local store with his Chase Bank Mastercard credit card and purchases the lawn mower (price $200) using Mastercard's global network.

Step 2: Mastercard pulls $196 from Chase's $13 Billion to pay local store for the lawn mower. Chase places a $200 charge on my son's credit account.

Step 3: Chase Bank pulls $200 from my son's Bank of America checking account to pay the $200 credit charge.

Money moves around. No new money is created at any point.

Only Congress can authorize the creation of money. Only the Treasury can actually create money and the Federal Reserve is used to facilitate such. Only the Bureau of Engraving can actually print money and only the mint can coin money.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
02-12-2020 17:43
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★★
(2107)
Spongy Iris wrote:
If your son bought a lawnmower with a credit card from a commercial bank, he would be creating money, when none existed before that.

No, you are just plain wrong about this. While transactions are being created, no money is being created.

Let's say that Jimmy bought a lawnmower using his "Bank of MONEY" credit card. There are multiple transactions connected to that single purchase, but I'll just highlight a couple of them. [1] Between the Bank of MONEY and the lawnmower store, and [2] Between Jimmy and the Bank of MONEY.

When Jimmy swipes his credit card at the lawnmower store, he is really making a transaction with his bank, who is making a transaction with the lawnmower store. The bank immediately pays for the lawnmower, and Jimmy pays back the bank at a later date (after the bank sends him his credit card bill). I personally do the majority of my purchases in this manner. I typically just stick my credit card chip into the credit card reader to make my purchases, then I write out a large lump sum check to my bank at the end of each month when they "send me the bill". NO MONEY IS BEING CREATED... Money is being transferred from one entity to another (iow, TRANSACTIONS), but it is not being created. The amount of money in existence remains the same.

Spongy Iris wrote:
The cash would go to the lawnmower seller. Once your son pays off his debt, after mowing some lawns, the cash is destroyed. If he gets hit with late fees and or interest, before he can pay all the debt, that goes to the bank's reserves

See above. Money is not being "destroyed"... It is being transferred.

Spongy Iris wrote:
Congress creates money when they go into debt to pay for public services and public infrastructure.

No one agency is creating all of a nation's money. Lots of banks are processing lots of loan applications, or buying government bonds.

Can you explain another way which money can be created?

Per our Constitution, only Congress can authorize the creation of money. Banks do not create money.
02-12-2020 17:54
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(9190)
gfm7175 wrote: The balance sheet is a financial statement (IOW, a "report"), not a journal or a ledger. There aren't any "entries".

Good catch. I missed this. Of course the ledger is used to capture the transactions. The balance sheet is just a current state, or a "snapshot." I should have caught that.

gfm7175 wrote: ... although I am much more familiar and practiced with the 'accounts receivable' aspect of accounting than I am with other aspects, ...

You work in "Billing."

gfm7175 wrote: I've received it...

That's a credit.

gfm7175 wrote: I've deposited it...

That's also a credit.

You've got to give me credit.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
02-12-2020 19:06
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★★
(2107)
IBdaMann wrote:
gfm7175 wrote: The balance sheet is a financial statement (IOW, a "report"), not a journal or a ledger. There aren't any "entries".

Good catch. I missed this. Of course the ledger is used to capture the transactions. The balance sheet is just a current state, or a "snapshot." I should have caught that.

Bingo! But yeah, given my particular background, his mistake stuck out to me like a sore thumb...

IBdaMann wrote:
gfm7175 wrote: ... although I am much more familiar and practiced with the 'accounts receivable' aspect of accounting than I am with other aspects, ...

You work in "Billing."

Bingo! That way of saying it would (hopefully) be better understood by people such as Spongy Iris... I specified it the way that I did because my job does not involve making payments to vendors ('accounts payable'); I only handle receiving payments from customers ('accounts receivable').

IBdaMann wrote:
gfm7175 wrote: I've received it...

That's a credit.

gfm7175 wrote: I've deposited it...

That's also a credit.

You've got to give me credit.

.

02-12-2020 19:19
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(15559)
Spongy Iris wrote:
Gold and silver are relevant for many conversations, but not conversations about economics anymore.

Gold and silver are part of the economy, dude.
Spongy Iris wrote:
"Congress never bothered to define lawful money when it first used the term. However, the line of thinking that it is defined by the constitution as only gold or silver coin is incorrect. The constitution makes no such definition.

Yes it does. See Article I. Congress has no authority to define 'lawful money'.
Spongy Iris wrote:
Congress may declare anything it wishes a legal tender. And as history shows, it certainly has."

Congress has no authority to change the Constitution.
Spongy Iris wrote:
-- Debunking the Federal Reserve Conspiracy Theories (and other financial myths) by Edward Flaherty

False authority fallacy. The Constitution is the authoritative reference of the Constitution, and ONLY the Constitution.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
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