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Septic tanks and water pollution



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08-10-2020 16:13
James___
★★★★★
(3284)
HarveyH55 wrote:
Would Norwegians build $6,000 outhouses?

Covid is just a cold. I'm sure more than 34 people catch cold every year in or government offices...



With outhouses, it all depends Harvey. Where xadoman built one, a septic system might've cost much more. And he'd have to worry about contaminating the soil where he lives. If he happens to have a vegetable garden, then he needs to prevent runoff from the house contaminating the vegetables in his garden, right?
If in Norway or other countries, that would be a thought. In Jordan, they reprocess human waste to remove it's moisture content. They also do that in California. It's waste water reclamation. Although they might just allow human waste to basically settle in a CHT (collection holding tank) where gravity would allow solids to move to the bottom and then just let the waste water runoff into a different system. That'd be like using a steam trap in an engine room to remove condensate from a steam line.
And that waste removed might also become fertilizer at the same time, then it's easier to make a profit by lowering the costs passed onto the consumer. There's actually bacteria that helps solid waste to become fertilizer more quickly. And this quote and it's link is about what California, USA is currently doing.

Only treated municipal wastewater for non-potable uses can be permitted, such as landscape irrigation, crop irrigation, dust control, industrial/commercial cooling, decorative fountains, etc. Potable reuse activities are not authorized under this General Order.
https://www.waterboards.ca.gov/drinking_water/certlic/drinkingwater/requirements.html

This is also something that more states in the US might do as aquifers west of the Mississippi River become even more depleted.
Edited on 08-10-2020 16:20
08-10-2020 17:08
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2543)
It's his summer home on a lake, he's vacationing, not farming. His main concern was run off from a septic system, or a pit outhouse, was the cause. His $6,000 toilet, takes care of the solid waste, but was wondering about the household liquid wastes. Gray water also carries a lot of algae food as well. A septic system handles both. His soil type was mostly clay (also, probably no garden), so seepage into the lake, no so likely.

There is no aquifer depletion, we get plenty of fresh water, every time it rains... Gulf states are about to get a surplus from Hurricane Delta...
08-10-2020 19:07
James___
★★★★★
(3284)
HarveyH55 wrote:
It's his summer home on a lake, he's vacationing, not farming. His main concern was run off from a septic system, or a pit outhouse, was the cause. His $6,000 toilet, takes care of the solid waste, but was wondering about the household liquid wastes. Gray water also carries a lot of algae food as well. A septic system handles both. His soil type was mostly clay (also, probably no garden), so seepage into the lake, no so likely.

There is no aquifer depletion, we get plenty of fresh water, every time it rains... Gulf states are about to get a surplus from Hurricane Delta...


As you've shown Harvey, you do not know the difference between east and west of the Mississippi River. And yet it's people like you who make America Great.
Over 24 million people live in Florida. How does that make you special when you think it's on the west coast? From what you just posted, I have to believe that is the point that you were making, right?


In a way it shows how Patriotic you are Harvey. You never served in the US Armed Forces and have no problem attacking a disabled Veteran because the military is a waste of your tax dollars. Why you never served. America doesn't matter, just you. And you are a True Republican.
After all, most people who serve in the military learn something about geography and codes of which you seem to know neither. Yet you fault me because I am a pursuing a science experiment that has its genesis (beginning) when I served in the US Navy.
It's sad that's something that bothers you and your friends. That serving YOUR country got me interested in a specific part of atmospheric chemistry and physics. I guess it would suck if my having served YOUR country made me aware of something meaningful. After all, you and your friends expect to be served.

And for political purposes, after this election I'll be changing my voter registration to Independent. That's all you guys seem to know, if someone isn't a Republican, they're your sworn enemy, a Democrat.
Edited on 08-10-2020 19:20
08-10-2020 21:05
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2543)
Florida's population was 21.6 million toward the start of the pandemic...

Not sure what any of the Kentucky Korn Whiskey talk has to do with $6,000 outhouses. Starting kind of early today, or you still working on last night's jug?
08-10-2020 21:44
James___
★★★★★
(3284)
HarveyH55 wrote:
Florida's population was 21.6 million toward the start of the pandemic...

Not sure what any of the Kentucky Korn Whiskey talk has to do with $6,000 outhouses. Starting kind of early today, or you still working on last night's jug?



Harvey55, Kentucky is actually known for Bourbon. And with brands like Maker's Mark, etc., a lot of Americans would find your comments nothing but ignorant. Are you aware that NASCAR was started by moonshiners? Some guy named France. Ever hear of him? https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/how-moonshine-bootlegging-gave-rise-nascar-180962014/
Do you know anything of American history or are you just a typical American bigot? This also means that the Daytona 500 has it's roots in moonshine runnin' because it's a part of NASCAR. No sense in my posting anything when all you post is hate.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nascar/2019/02/13/brian-france-jim-france-nascar-ceo-changes-daytona-500/2863767002/
Edited on 08-10-2020 21:45
09-10-2020 00:22
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2543)
I know the gas I pump into my SUV, is 10% Corn Whiskey. Since the pandemic, there has been lower gas consumption, which means a surplus of Corn Whiskey, cheapest price in the liqueur store...
09-10-2020 03:46
James___
★★★★★
(3284)
HarveyH55 wrote:
I know the gas I pump into my SUV, is 10% Corn Whiskey. Since the pandemic, there has been lower gas consumption, which means a surplus of Corn Whiskey, cheapest price in the liqueur store...



All you do is make me aware that I have better things to do.
09-10-2020 21:26
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(297)
No updates? No Grand Opening celebration? Maybe construction got put on hold, do to a climate change...


It was raining a lot and the surface was too slippery and soft for the concrete mixer truck so I could not pour the slab right away. I had to wait 3 weeks for a suitable moment. Fortunately I got it poured and I have been curing it for almost 3 weeks now. I am going to start to remove the formwork tomorrow. I think 3 weeks is long enough for proper curing. Meanwhile I have starting to install drainage pipes and backfilling.

Just about 5 hours after the pour:


Drainage pipes around the footing:



I am going to install a vertical pipe from this T fitting so that I could wash the drainage if it starts to clog up.



Backfilling:




View from behind:


It is going to be ready for the next summer. Things have gotten more complicating than I initially planned . For example I designed the bottom slab to resist frost heave( 1 foot thick concrete with double layer heavy reinforcement) but I completely forget/ignored the walls. If the bottom slab is going to play due to frost heave then it cracks the bottom slab open from the walls. So I need to protect the whole foundation from the frost heave. I should have gone down to frost line with the bottom slab( simply pourning it 5 foot thick) but I did not foresee the problem whith the walls and now I pay the price for this mistake.
09-10-2020 22:34
James___
★★★★★
(3284)
Xadoman wrote:
No updates? No Grand Opening celebration? Maybe construction got put on hold, do to a climate change...


It was raining a lot and the surface was too slippery and soft for the concrete mixer truck so I could not pour the slab right away. I had to wait 3 weeks for a suitable moment. Fortunately I got it poured and I have been curing it for almost 3 weeks now. I am going to start to remove the formwork tomorrow. I think 3 weeks is long enough for proper curing. Meanwhile I have starting to install drainage pipes and backfilling.

Just about 5 hours after the pour:


Drainage pipes around the footing:



I am going to install a vertical pipe from this T fitting so that I could wash the drainage if it starts to clog up.



Backfilling:




View from behind:


It is going to be ready for the next summer. Things have gotten more complicating than I initially planned . For example I designed the bottom slab to resist frost heave( 1 foot thick concrete with double layer heavy reinforcement) but I completely forget/ignored the walls. If the bottom slab is going to play due to frost heave then it cracks the bottom slab open from the walls. So I need to protect the whole foundation from the frost heave. I should have gone down to frost line with the bottom slab( simply pourning it 5 foot thick) but I did not foresee the problem whith the walls and now I pay the price for this mistake.



What might be an odd thought is using plywood. It's base further away from the base of your structure than its top with sand between it and your structure? Instead of a vertical surface for the soil to "heave" against, it'd have a slight slope.
Plastic would need to protect the sand from moisture getting into it. Then the sand's "heave" would give a more fluid movement than soil. Just something to consider.

p.s., if you're wondering, with soil upheaval, the plywood/sand would give a way for tension to be released. The plywood would be lifted and the sand would act as a lubricant. And a polyurethane coating could help the plywood to last longer. And with plastic, much longer.
Edited on 09-10-2020 22:43
09-10-2020 23:09
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(297)
I am going to use rigid foam insulation sheets and lay them on the ground at the backside. Then I am going to cover those with some backfill. I have read that one inch of rigid foam is about equal with one foot of backfill. So 4 inches thick layer of rigid foam gives me almost the necessary frost depth.
09-10-2020 23:17
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(297)
p.s., if you're wondering, with soil upheaval, the plywood/sand would give a way for tension to be released. The plywood would be lifted and the sand would act as a lubricant. And a polyurethane coating could help the plywood to last longer. And with plastic, much longer.


I have to say that I do not completely understand how it would help with the frost heave.

I made a little schematic in paint what I find to be the problem with frost heave:

10-10-2020 00:18
James___
★★★★★
(3284)
Xadoman wrote:
p.s., if you're wondering, with soil upheaval, the plywood/sand would give a way for tension to be released. The plywood would be lifted and the sand would act as a lubricant. And a polyurethane coating could help the plywood to last longer. And with plastic, much longer.


I have to say that I do not completely understand how it would help with the frost heave.

I made a little schematic in paint what I find to be the problem with frost heave:




Even though we are well into the 21st Century, I still like using the original paint program. I use SketchUp when dimensions matter https://www.sketchup.com/plans-and-pricing?gclid=CjwKCAjwlID8BRAFEiwAnUoK1QSpb5saotQeiswmbOqvAMjB3jKj9s0MRzAaNz_jXh6s8Dj5Z-O37xoCPI8QAvD_BwE#for-professional and it's also free, just click on "personal".
I got it backwards with the sand and plywood. The Earth's temperature will not vary much at the bottom of your CHT (collection and holding tank). It will vary more at ground level.
Upheaval occurs because it is observed. Without a structure at a given location, upheaval would not be noticed. A permanent structure allows this movement to become known.
The diagram I made shows the top of the plywood is further away than it is at its base. Expansion of soil occurs closer to the surface. And if you're aware of attempts to find the Northwest Passage in the 19th century, we all know that as ice forms, it crushes and lifts what's not ice. Just basic history.
With that in mind, if the top of the sand can lift, it will fracture any earth above it. This means that the sand can be covered. And if you wanted to know the specific upheaval, just measure during the coldest cold period and then during the summer.
If you're wondering, this really does get into physics and engineering. It gives me a chance to show these guys it can help to build a better outhouse.

If the image does not upload.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/gqsLXfd6MVhTmPpY9
Attached image:


Edited on 10-10-2020 00:19
10-10-2020 00:34
James___
★★★★★
(3284)
@xadoman, with the 2 vertical black lines, if the sand is encased in plastic, it's volume will not change while it's form does. Moisture increases compression. And since the space in the ground is already occupied, upheaval allows for an increase in volume.
Water increases in volume by ~ (about, am teaching these guys what ~ means) 9%. This is why Arctic sea ice can crush a ship while lifting it. The area of a given surface can not increase. This means that lift or "upheaval" is a release for that given volume.
And do understand, in here, I'm basically an a**hole because I'll get into science. As for your objective, the expansion of the earth (not a proper noun but is a pronoun, Earth as in the planet is a proper noun. When it's composition is discussed, it's a pronoun and pronouns are not capitalized) around your outhouse increases, for what area does that affect your physical structure which is your concrete pour?
And do you know it's moisture content? Kind of what you need to know when considering soil "upheaval". That is what allows for expansion which causes upheaval.
Edited on 10-10-2020 00:41
10-10-2020 05:53
James___
★★★★★
(3284)
Sunday is Sabbat. The other 6 days? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZoJiTP5XZo
I'm not Jewish.


And for the rest of you, between Heywood and Nugent, what didn't you know??
You're Americans, right? This is your backyard.
Edited on 10-10-2020 06:01
10-10-2020 06:23
James___
★★★★★
(3284)
Some of Inbar Lavi's pics. One is about shabatt.


https://www.instagram.com/inbarlavi/

https://www.facebook.com/InbarLaviFans/photos/a.818629924977673/1589240944583230/
Shalom


p.s., in that pic, she is getting ready for sabbat. I can't read Hebrew but if you can, that's what it says. You can see in the pic my comment. It has to do with the sabbath.
Attached image:


Edited on 10-10-2020 06:39
10-10-2020 13:27
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(297)
James, I appreciate your effort to solve the frost heave problem but I have some doubts about your solution.I know you are very good with numbers but I have a feeling that you underestimate the problems caused by frost. Consider this, the frost heave is going to lift the bottom slab from the backs side where the emtying doors are because there is no sufficient backfill to protect the slab from frost. It causes the slab to heave from this side , lets say 2 inches. Since the front side of the slab is protected with sufficient backfill , there will be uneven lift of the bottom slab and it causes rotation. The walls would also need to rotate with this movement( 2 inches , the height of the wall is approximately the same as the width of the slab) but they can not because the backfill is not compressible. So something has to give up and I think the walls are going to be teared away from the bottom. If the structure does not give up then the frost is simply moving the whole structure a little bit to another place.
I also thought about using a thick layer of rigid foam around the structure to allow buffering to this rotational movement but I am not sure about the buffering ability of rigid foam in the long run. I am afraid it loses its elasticy over the years.
Edited on 10-10-2020 13:33
10-10-2020 17:44
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2543)
How deep does it freeze around there? Frost is more of a surface thing, doubt 12 inches. The weight of the structure should provide some resistance. Most everything takes the path of least resistance.

What do you do with the gray-water from the house? I'm guess you produce the usual wash water, as any other household, which contain a lot of plant nutrients. A septic system deals with gray-water, as well as solid waste.
10-10-2020 19:17
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13487)
HarveyH55 wrote:
It's his summer home on a lake, he's vacationing, not farming. His main concern was run off from a septic system, or a pit outhouse, was the cause. His $6,000 toilet, takes care of the solid waste, but was wondering about the household liquid wastes. Gray water also carries a lot of algae food as well. A septic system handles both. His soil type was mostly clay (also, probably no garden), so seepage into the lake, no so likely.

There is no aquifer depletion, we get plenty of fresh water, every time it rains... Gulf states are about to get a surplus from Hurricane Delta...

I imagine that his gray water is just going into the so-called lake (actually a swamp)...or perhaps he has no plumbing and washes his clothes in the swamp. Remember his neighbor just shits and pees in the woods.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
10-10-2020 19:26
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13487)
Xadoman wrote:
I am going to use rigid foam insulation sheets and lay them on the ground at the backside. Then I am going to cover those with some backfill. I have read that one inch of rigid foam is about equal with one foot of backfill. So 4 inches thick layer of rigid foam gives me almost the necessary frost depth.


Just how cold does it get around there? I see a lot of deciduous trees.
You do realize, don't you, that backfill is included in the frost depth requirements of a footing or other concrete pour?

Where is your drain around the structure draining to? Are you pumping it somewhere?


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
10-10-2020 23:02
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(297)
How deep does it freeze around there? Frost is more of a surface thing, doubt 12 inches. The weight of the structure should provide some resistance. Most everything takes the path of least resistance.


Frost depth is considered here approximately 4-5 foot or 1.2-1,5 m. The weight of the structure is neglible compared to forces generated by the frost.

What do you do with the gray-water from the house? I'm guess you produce the usual wash water, as any other household, which contain a lot of plant nutrients. A septic system deals with gray-water, as well as solid waste.


Gray water simply goes under the bushes.

I imagine that his gray water is just going into the so-called lake (actually a swamp)...or perhaps he has no plumbing and washes his clothes in the swamp. Remember his neighbor just shits and pees in the woods.


Yes, no plumbing . Also no problems with frost bursting pipes during the winter.
My neighbour does not want to spend a single penny on his household. He likes traveling and every free penny goes into traveling around the world. For example take a look at his roof:







Notice that the chimney end looks good. I helped with my friend to build a new end for the chimney a couple of years ago. The old one was a masterpiece of a modern art but it needed to be demolished because the chimney had serious draft problem and we thought that the bad chimney end could cause it. We found out later that the real problem was actually elsewhere and caused by burning too wet firewood.
10-10-2020 23:27
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2543)
Into the Night wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
It's his summer home on a lake, he's vacationing, not farming. His main concern was run off from a septic system, or a pit outhouse, was the cause. His $6,000 toilet, takes care of the solid waste, but was wondering about the household liquid wastes. Gray water also carries a lot of algae food as well. A septic system handles both. His soil type was mostly clay (also, probably no garden), so seepage into the lake, no so likely.

There is no aquifer depletion, we get plenty of fresh water, every time it rains... Gulf states are about to get a surplus from Hurricane Delta...

I imagine that his gray water is just going into the so-called lake (actually a swamp)...or perhaps he has no plumbing and washes his clothes in the swamp. Remember his neighbor just shits and pees in the woods.


If it's good enough for the wildlife, why would it be problem for humans?
11-10-2020 03:51
duncan61
★★★☆☆
(634)
7 pages on an outdoor toilet.WOW
11-10-2020 04:29
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2543)
duncan61 wrote:
7 pages on an outdoor toilet.WOW


Hey, it's a DIY project. Always good to see people build stuff.

I visit http://www.hackaday.com/ everyday, just to see what other people are building. Probably should have mentioned it in this thread. They have contests, and prizes. I've never really gotten into that part of the site though, just the new articles. Mostly, I just read the electronics, robots, occasionally 3d printer stuff. They are pro-climate change, and have articles related to that nonsense. My comments have to be review by a moderator because of it.
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