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Septic tanks and water pollution



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Septic tanks and water pollution08-08-2020 02:40
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(336)
ITN, I understand from your previous posting that you know a lot about sewage water purification systems. I have a question about small septic systems that most households nowadays use to treat sewage. I mean those systems that have a tank under the ground that has 3 separate chambers and an overflow pipe that leads to a draindfield. How safe are those systems? I have a feeling that those systems could contaminate ground water . I myself have a summer house nearby a lake and I noticed that there was some kind of algal bloom in the lake water. Could it be that septic systems are contaminating the lake water? Also , how to build a fool proof septic drainfield that would not contaminate the ground or lake water? The soil is clay under the topsoil.
Edited on 08-08-2020 02:42
08-08-2020 05:40
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2745)
Xadoman wrote:
ITN, I understand from your previous posting that you know a lot about sewage water purification systems. I have a question about small septic systems that most households nowadays use to treat sewage. I mean those systems that have a tank under the ground that has 3 separate chambers and an overflow pipe that leads to a draindfield. How safe are those systems? I have a feeling that those systems could contaminate ground water . I myself have a summer house nearby a lake and I noticed that there was some kind of algal bloom in the lake water. Could it be that septic systems are contaminating the lake water? Also , how to build a fool proof septic drainfield that would not contaminate the ground or lake water? The soil is clay under the topsoil.


You should study up on how a septic system actually works... They don't typically contaminate anything, if maintained properly, and undamaged. The scary bacteria that do the work, are anaerobic, which means the don't do well in open air. They are also fairly common in our digestive tracks, an in other animals. Ground water seldom has enough organic matter to support much in the way of bacteria. Drain fields, are like a natural filter. The main objection to septic systems, is that the local government, doesn't get to collect sewage fees, sort of a tax they can change at will, and nobody really knows how much they actually flush anyway...

Algae is a plant, and will 'bloom' when conditions are right. The ecosystem in your lake is probably out of balance. Could be people dumping raw sewage in it as well. Water from a proper septic system won't have any effect. Unfortunately, septic system need to be replaced occasionally, which can be more than some are willing to spend. Some local governments have some special taxes (permits), which can add quite a bit on to the bill, since they wish for everyone to tie into the sewer system, and pay the monthly tax/fee. Cheap and simple to find alternate disposal methods, for the raw sewage...
08-08-2020 07:42
duncan61
★★★☆☆
(749)
Septic systems are installed where there is no mains sewer and do have the capacity to leach in to groundwater and upset the balance.On mine sites biocycles are installed that work on anaerobic action and also air is pumped in through matting and aerobic action accelerates the natural process.The treated effluent is then pumped on to garden beds and has a slight non offensive soapy smell.It all works well.I have opened septic sets and leach drains after being out of commission for 12 months and they are empty with a small amount of grey powder.
08-08-2020 08:59
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(336)
Harvey, in theory they should work that way as you described but in practice I have heard about many problems with them. That is also why you can not install them in many places. If nitrogen and phosphorus reach to the lake from the drainfield then the algae will have a lot of food and will bloom. The water in the lake does not want to clear up in this summer for some reason and I want to know what is the reason. I am sure fertilizers from agriculture will also reach into the lake but I have a feeling that septic systems with their drainfields could also have quite a big influence.
Also, take a look at that article:
https://phys.org/news/2015-08-septic-tanks-poo-rivers-lakes.html

Until now, it was assumed that the soil could filter human sewage, and that it works as a natural treatment system. Discharge-to-soil methods, a simple hole dug in the ground under an outhouse, for example, have been used for many years. Unfortunately, these systems do not keep E. coli and other pathogens from water supplies, Rose said.
08-08-2020 09:20
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(336)
duncan61 wrote:
Septic systems are installed where there is no mains sewer and do have the capacity to leach in to groundwater and upset the balance.On mine sites biocycles are installed that work on anaerobic action and also air is pumped in through matting and aerobic action accelerates the natural process.The treated effluent is then pumped on to garden beds and has a slight non offensive soapy smell.It all works well.I have opened septic sets and leach drains after being out of commission for 12 months and they are empty with a small amount of grey powder.


I myself think the best way is to build the drainfield on the ground usind sand , gravel etc to rise the surface and to use a pump to move water from the septic to drainfield. This way there is more room to filter out water and the occasional surface water rising does not affect the drainfield. The problem is that this kind of system is not very aesthetic to the eye - you have a mountain in the yard. Also there is a room problem ,some properties are the size of the helicopter landingspace so they basically sit on the septic tank. They simply have no room to build a fool proof drainfield and the only option is to berry everything into the ground and have a hope that everything works out ok.
Edited on 08-08-2020 09:23
08-08-2020 21:55
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2745)
I still believe that septic systems are reliable and effective, in the vast majority of cases. Environmental activists, and cities, have been attacking them for decades, for their own personal gain, and fail consistently. They've tried many different ways, to prove the hazzards, of seepage. Last time I read anything, the used some sort of dye/indicator chemical, which never showed up, as it should have, based on the crisis they promoted. It's just another one of those paper theories, in the worst possible case, it might cause an issue. In practice, it's highly unlikely to happen.

Unless you are sitting right on the lake shore line, your septic water has a long way to go. Land plants also use the same nutrients, as algae. Sewage, isn't the only requirement for bacteria to survive. Seeping into ground water, isn't going to be the only thing that needs to happen, for there to be a problem. Septic system have a long, successful history.

Also consider the sewage lines, and treatment plants. Certainly, you've have seen these pipes dug up, because the break or leak. Most of the time, nobody really knows how long these pipes were leaking, before someone noticed. Treatment plants fail, pumps need replaced, lakes and rivers flooded with raw sewage. There was a brown water fountain, in Orlando, last year I think, a sewage main bursted under a street. Problems happen with any system.

The local wildlife doesn't use any sort of sewage treatment, just let it drop, anytime, any place. Nature takes care of it, just fine...
08-08-2020 23:12
James___
★★★★★
(3454)
Xadoman wrote:
duncan61 wrote:
Septic systems are installed where there is no mains sewer and do have the capacity to leach in to groundwater and upset the balance.On mine sites biocycles are installed that work on anaerobic action and also air is pumped in through matting and aerobic action accelerates the natural process.The treated effluent is then pumped on to garden beds and has a slight non offensive soapy smell.It all works well.I have opened septic sets and leach drains after being out of commission for 12 months and they are empty with a small amount of grey powder.


I myself think the best way is to build the drainfield on the ground usind sand , gravel etc to rise the surface and to use a pump to move water from the septic to drainfield. This way there is more room to filter out water and the occasional surface water rising does not affect the drainfield. The problem is that this kind of system is not very aesthetic to the eye - you have a mountain in the yard. Also there is a room problem ,some properties are the size of the helicopter landingspace so they basically sit on the septic tank. They simply have no room to build a fool proof drainfield and the only option is to berry everything into the ground and have a hope that everything works out ok.



Something for you to consider. And this goes to what one person about how the top soil in Iowa is being removed by growing crops.

Humans have been repurposing their feces for thousands of years – some more safely than others. Often known by its euphemistic name "night soil," the most famous example of raw human waste application might be China, where human excrement was used for centuries in an attempt to close the nutrient cycle in their fields, something that agricultural scientist F.H. King cited in the early 20th century as the reason behind China's seemingly perennial fertility. While night soil might have helped China's land retain crucial nutrients, it didn't win any awards for public health. Because the night soil was often untreated, pathogens could easily be transferred to both humans and food (so eating raw vegetation was seriously frowned upon).

https://modernfarmer.com/2014/07/stink-human-poop-fertilizer/

With the last part, heating vegetables killed bacteria in untreated soil.
08-08-2020 23:18
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(336)
Harvey, the problem is that it is estimated that lakes will lose their surface area aproximately 1000 times more quickly due to added nitrogen and phosphorus compared to their natural aging. Yes, nature will take care of it, but we will lose lakes much quicker than it should be.
08-08-2020 23:33
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(336)
James, I know about the topsoil problem. One side of the problem is that poop is berried into the landfills because people find an idea of their own feces as fertilizer repulsive. In my summerhouse I am building a dry composting toilet with two chambers because I find it more simple and less troublesome than septic system. In winter I do not have to worry about water lines freezing etc etc. Also, as I already mentioned I live just nearby the lake and I would not want to pollute it with nitrogen and phosphorus and other items from the drainfields that could become detrimental for its life.
09-08-2020 02:53
James___
★★★★★
(3454)
Xadoman wrote:
James, I know about the topsoil problem. One side of the problem is that poop is berried into the landfills because people find an idea of their own feces as fertilizer repulsive. In my summerhouse I am building a dry composting toilet with two chambers because I find it more simple and less troublesome than septic system. In winter I do not have to worry about water lines freezing etc etc. Also, as I already mentioned I live just nearby the lake and I would not want to pollute it with nitrogen and phosphorus and other items from the drainfields that could become detrimental for its life.



I think you misunderstood what I was implying. It's that farms could use treated waste to maintain their topsoil. For someone like you with a septic tank, sludge could be pumped from your tank. Then it could be transported and processed to help preserve our farming communities.
If what one member of this forum posted about soil depth in Iowa is correct, in the last century it decreased by 1/2. It won't make it another 100 years. And the question is, do we need our farms?
Many people would not like this. It's socialism and transporting biosolids costs money. Yet what happens if we have no topsoil to grow crops in? Do we start pulverizing the bedrock to create a hydroponic system? Returning biosolids back to where the source material originated might be the least expensive solution.
09-08-2020 03:05
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(336)
I do not have a septic system. I am building a dry closet( two chamber composting toilet). Before that I had an oldschool dry closet - simple hole in the ground but I am afraid it pollutes too much. I questioned about septic systems because the algae was constantly blooming in the lake this summer. The water eventually cleared up a few days ago but I wonder what could be the reason for such blooming. Some have installed septics just nearby the lake and I have a feeling that those could have something to do with it. Also of course there are fertilizers from agriculture.
09-08-2020 22:28
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13933)
Xadoman wrote:
ITN, I understand from your previous posting that you know a lot about sewage water purification systems.

True. I've 'been in the shit', so to speak.

Xadoman wrote:
I have a question about small septic systems that most households nowadays use to treat sewage.

Ask away.
Xadoman wrote:
I mean those systems that have a tank under the ground that has 3 separate chambers

Usually two. Some systems only have one. Pretty rare to have a 3 chamber tank.
Xadoman wrote:
and an overflow pipe

It's actually not an overflow pipe. It is a critical part of the system.
Xadoman wrote:
that leads to a draindfield.

Septic system guys call it a leach field. It isn't just draining water.
Xadoman wrote:
How safe are those systems?

Very, when they are working as designed.
Xadoman wrote:
I have a feeling that those systems could contaminate ground water.

Actually they really don't. Leach fields are a critical part of processing the waste. In most States, you can't drill a well within 100 feet of a leach field, because you need that soil for the leach field.

All sanitary wastewater treatment systems make use of bacteria to function, including a septic system. The sepsis (the bacteria breaking down biological waste) takes place mostly in the tank. As stuff is flushed into the tank, solids will sink to the bottom, and a scum layer forms on top. The entry plumbing has a tee on it to drop waste in between these layers that form in the tank. This keeps the entry plumbing clear of clogging debris, ensuring that everything keeps flowing in the direction you want it to.


Bacteria in the tank break down waste, forming the solids on the bottom and the scum layer on top.

In a two tank system, openings are set below the scum line into the second chamber, where the same thing happens again, further breaking down waste.

The exit tee is set to draw water from below the scum layer. You don't want that scum entering your leach field. The water level in the tank is set by this tee.

The purpose of the tank is to give waste water a resting area for sepsis to start, and to separate out solids and scum from water.

All plumbing so far is carefully set at an angle to keep things flowing in the right direction, with no low spots.

The leach piping goes into a distribution box. This is just a small box set in the ground that all the leach field piping connects to. It has valves in it that are set to allow an equal flow to each leach field pipe. From here on, all plumbing is carefully set to dead level.

Waste water, now cleaned of scum and solids by the tank, enters the leach field. This water still have biological waste in it, but it is all in liquid form. The leach piping is designed to introduce this water into the soil.

Now the real processing happens. As the water enters the soil, there is bacteria in the soil that eats the rest of it. As the water drains away from the leach field, this bacteria follows it and breaks it down. After as little as 7 feet, the water is essentially potable. As the leach field ages, this distance increases a tad.
Xadoman wrote:
I myself have a summer house nearby a lake and I noticed that there was some kind of algal bloom in the lake water.

This bloom isn't coming from leach fields. It is coming from fertilizer spread on people's lawns, washing into the lake. This is a common problem.
Xadoman wrote:
Could it be that septic systems are contaminating the lake water?

No. Leach fields are required to be above the lake level by quite a bit. The water coming from the leach fields has already been processed by bacteria before entering the lake. What enters the lake is essentially potable water.
Xadoman wrote:
Also , how to build a fool proof septic drainfield that would not contaminate the ground or lake water?

Talk to a septic system engineer. They will come out and perk (percolation) test your soil. This is a test designed to determine how well your soil will absorb the water a leach field will introduce to it. If it perks to slowly, water won't drain fast enough into the soil, and the entire system backs up. This is VERY rare. If it perks too rapidly, water drains too well, not giving the bacteria in the soil a chance to break down the waste in a reasonable distance. Either condition results in a failure of the perk test. The result of this test, and the number of bedrooms in the house connected to it, determines the engineering design for your system and the size of the tank and leach field required. The engineer will then draw up a plan for the system that you must conform to in order to pass code (and the inspector that will come out to look at your installation. You are usually allowed to install it yourself as a homeowner, but most people sub this out. It requires digging a substantially large hole in the ground for the tank, and the trenching for the pipe, and careful construction of the entire system.

Such a failure in the perk test doesn't mean the lot is not buildable, it simply means a gravity fed system like I just described isn't possible in the native soil of the area. Introducing gravel or clay to soil may bring it in line with perk test requirements. If the water table is too high, the leach field won't work. You have to build a mound system, in which the leach field is above the tank, and you have to pump it there. There are pumps designed for this, but it is a pain. If you lose power, you lose your septic system. These system often have backup generators to keep the pump running.

Xadoman wrote:
The soil is clay under the topsoil.


How much sand is in the clay? How much gravel is in the clay? How thick is the topsoil? All these questions make a difference in the perk test. The engineer will dig some holes, take soil samples and analyze them at different levels, and determine just what is needed to get the system to work. Soils rarely are just two levels, especially 6 to 7 feet down.

Have no fear of the septic system. It's just a smaller version of what the city sewer plant does. It is designed to clean the water you flush into the system using the bacteria naturally occurring in you and in the soil.

Of course, from time to time, you have to get a truck and pump the solids out of the bottom of the tank. They will take it to a sewer plant and discharge it there for processing. They will also inspect the system to make sure everything is still functioning correctly...all for a modest fee. They often are also licensed plumbers, able to correct any deficiencies in the system.

Don't get into an accident with a shit truck!


Hope this helps you understand the marvelous things that happen in the simple septic system that serves a home.

That said, don't install one unless an engineer has designed it, and follow his design to the letter. A bad septic system will stink. Correcting the problem will be VERY expensive. If everything is working correctly, there should be no odor, everyone's wells are good water, and the lake will be fine.

I have seen unauthorized home made systems using the wrong type of pipe, collapsing under the weight of the soil over time. I have seen them where the leach field was not protected by entry and exit tees in the tank, causing an almost immediate clog that is very difficult to locate and get to. I have seen them where people did not correctly set the angle of the plumbing, causing clogs and backups, or where they used too small a plumbing, causing the same thing.

I've seen some pretty bad amateur designs for the in-house wastewater system as well, allowing P traps to siphon out because of poor venting, or even outright vapor lock because of poor or nearly non-existent venting, or the incorrect use of plumbing connections that cause toilets to back up, caused by a clog in a very hard to reach place within the walls, since clean out ports were typically not installed either.

It's important to do it right. If you don't know what you're doing, have a licensed subcontractor do it for you.

Besides, most people don't have the equipment to dig a 7 foot hole for their tank, or the trenching for their leach field.

If you want to stop the algae blooms, get your neighbors to stop putting fertilizer on their lawns.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
09-08-2020 22:35
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13933)
Xadoman wrote:
Harvey, in theory they should work that way as you described but in practice I have heard about many problems with them. That is also why you can not install them in many places. If nitrogen and phosphorus reach to the lake from the drainfield then the algae will have a lot of food and will bloom. The water in the lake does not want to clear up in this summer for some reason and I want to know what is the reason. I am sure fertilizers from agriculture will also reach into the lake but I have a feeling that septic systems with their drainfields could also have quite a big influence.
Also, take a look at that article:
https://phys.org/news/2015-08-septic-tanks-poo-rivers-lakes.html

[quote]Until now, it was assumed that the soil could filter human sewage, and that it works as a natural treatment system. Discharge-to-soil methods, a simple hole dug in the ground under an outhouse, for example, have been used for many years. Unfortunately, these systems do not keep E. coli and other pathogens from water supplies, Rose said.


If the septic system is installed according to code and the engineer that designed it, it will not affect the lake.

Outhouses have a lot of problems. That's why they are no longer allowed. The do not allow the soil to properly handle the waste and can cause real pollution problems for a great distance around them. The plastic porta-potties you see at fairs and the like are completely self contained. There is no hole under them. The truck picks them up and takes them to a plant where they can be dumped cleaned, and returned to service again.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
09-08-2020 22:40
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13933)
Xadoman wrote:
duncan61 wrote:
Septic systems are installed where there is no mains sewer and do have the capacity to leach in to groundwater and upset the balance.On mine sites biocycles are installed that work on anaerobic action and also air is pumped in through matting and aerobic action accelerates the natural process.The treated effluent is then pumped on to garden beds and has a slight non offensive soapy smell.It all works well.I have opened septic sets and leach drains after being out of commission for 12 months and they are empty with a small amount of grey powder.


I myself think the best way is to build the drainfield on the ground usind sand , gravel etc to rise the surface and to use a pump to move water from the septic to drainfield. This way there is more room to filter out water and the occasional surface water rising does not affect the drainfield. The problem is that this kind of system is not very aesthetic to the eye - you have a mountain in the yard. Also there is a room problem ,some properties are the size of the helicopter landingspace so they basically sit on the septic tank. They simply have no room to build a fool proof drainfield and the only option is to berry everything into the ground and have a hope that everything works out ok.


No house is allowed to sit on a septic tank or leach field. Houses are heavy. They will crush the tank.

If you do not have sufficient room for a septic system, the lot isn't buildable.

Raised leach fields are kind of an eyesore, but that mountain can often be hidden with landscaping (no trees, just low bushes). Some types of bushes are very effective at screening out the site from view as well.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
09-08-2020 22:44
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13933)
Xadoman wrote:
Harvey, the problem is that it is estimated that lakes will lose their surface area aproximately 1000 times more quickly due to added nitrogen and phosphorus compared to their natural aging. Yes, nature will take care of it, but we will lose lakes much quicker than it should be.


Lakes are fed by a water source like a creek or river somewhere. Sometimes it's underground, and rises to fill the lake as a spring (common in Florida).

Weeds and algae do not change this. The lake is still there, under all those weeds and algae scum.

If a lake silts up, it simply becomes part of the creek or river that feeds it. This also happens naturally.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
09-08-2020 22:46
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13933)
Xadoman wrote:
I do not have a septic system. I am building a dry closet( two chamber composting toilet). Before that I had an oldschool dry closet - simple hole in the ground but I am afraid it pollutes too much. I questioned about septic systems because the algae was constantly blooming in the lake this summer. The water eventually cleared up a few days ago but I wonder what could be the reason for such blooming. Some have installed septics just nearby the lake and I have a feeling that those could have something to do with it. Also of course there are fertilizers from agriculture.


Blame the fertilizers. That's what feeds algae. It is from runoff from the lawns and fields.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
10-08-2020 00:05
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(336)
ITN, as much as I know water from the leach field still contains nitrogen and phosphorus. Those will feed algae in the lake and cause blooming. The problem with many septic systems is as you said amateurish installation without project.
Lakes are loosing their surface area year by year. Naturally it is a long process but human activity has accelerated this process significantly. Some lakes will disappear literally under our own eyes nowadays. Overall most lakes are in very bad shape nowadays.
Outhouses was a norm not long time ago here. Nowaday most have septic or a simple closed pit that has to be emptied very often. One of my neighbour does not even have and outhouse till this day and simply takes shit in the bushes. He is a miser and does not want to spend a single penny on his household.
I build a dry composting toilet with two separate chambers. If one becomes full then I leave one chamber to composting for years and use the other one. Stuff in it should be completely turned to soil like manure after 5-7years.
Edited on 10-08-2020 00:12
10-08-2020 22:23
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2745)
Xadoman wrote:
ITN, as much as I know water from the leach field still contains nitrogen and phosphorus. Those will feed algae in the lake and cause blooming. The problem with many septic systems is as you said amateurish installation without project.
Lakes are loosing their surface area year by year. Naturally it is a long process but human activity has accelerated this process significantly. Some lakes will disappear literally under our own eyes nowadays. Overall most lakes are in very bad shape nowadays.
Outhouses was a norm not long time ago here. Nowaday most have septic or a simple closed pit that has to be emptied very often. One of my neighbour does not even have and outhouse till this day and simply takes shit in the bushes. He is a miser and does not want to spend a single penny on his household.
I build a dry composting toilet with two separate chambers. If one becomes full then I leave one chamber to composting for years and use the other one. Stuff in it should be completely turned to soil like manure after 5-7years.


5-7 years? O don't think you are doing something right... On farms, they have this thing, called a 'manure pile', which only takes months to 'mature'. The key, seems to be in turning it, moving it around. Some farmers say, it's to avoid growing those mushrooms so popular with the 'hippie' kids, who bust up fences look for them...
10-08-2020 23:25
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13933)
Xadoman wrote:
ITN, as much as I know water from the leach field still contains nitrogen and phosphorus.

Not a whole lot. Bacteria break it down. That's food for bacteria.
Xadoman wrote:
Those will feed algae in the lake and cause blooming. The problem with many septic systems is as you said amateurish installation without project.

Such systems stink and are failing. That kind of thing usually gets the owner to do something about it.
Xadoman wrote:
Lakes are loosing their surface area year by year.

The surface area of lakes on Earth is unknown.
Xadoman wrote:
Naturally it is a long process but human activity has accelerated this process significantly.

The surface area of lakes on Earth is unknown.
Xadoman wrote:
Some lakes will disappear literally under our own eyes nowadays. Overall most lakes are in very bad shape nowadays.

Define 'bad shape'.
Xadoman wrote:
Outhouses was a norm not long time ago here.

Their pits are below the level of most lakes.
Xadoman wrote:
Nowaday most have septic or a simple closed pit that has to be emptied very often. One of my neighbour does not even have and outhouse till this day and simply takes shit in the bushes.
He is a miser and does not want to spend a single penny on his household.

Turning animal, eh? You know, the other residents could raise an issue with the State health department over this guy.
Xadoman wrote:
I build a dry composting toilet with two separate chambers. If one becomes full then I leave one chamber to composting for years and use the other one. Stuff in it should be completely turned to soil like manure after 5-7years.

That contains nitrogen and phosphorus just like any fertilizer. Your toilets have done nothing for the lake. Like any fertilizer, it will feed the algae just the same.

I never said a leach field is sterile, but the bacteria in the soil get a good chance to get it first before it goes anywhere near the lake.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Edited on 10-08-2020 23:27
10-08-2020 23:29
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13933)
HarveyH55 wrote:
Xadoman wrote:
ITN, as much as I know water from the leach field still contains nitrogen and phosphorus. Those will feed algae in the lake and cause blooming. The problem with many septic systems is as you said amateurish installation without project.
Lakes are loosing their surface area year by year. Naturally it is a long process but human activity has accelerated this process significantly. Some lakes will disappear literally under our own eyes nowadays. Overall most lakes are in very bad shape nowadays.
Outhouses was a norm not long time ago here. Nowaday most have septic or a simple closed pit that has to be emptied very often. One of my neighbour does not even have and outhouse till this day and simply takes shit in the bushes. He is a miser and does not want to spend a single penny on his household.
I build a dry composting toilet with two separate chambers. If one becomes full then I leave one chamber to composting for years and use the other one. Stuff in it should be completely turned to soil like manure after 5-7years.


5-7 years? O don't think you are doing something right... On farms, they have this thing, called a 'manure pile', which only takes months to 'mature'. The key, seems to be in turning it, moving it around. Some farmers say, it's to avoid growing those mushrooms so popular with the 'hippie' kids, who bust up fences look for them...


Yes, manure piles do need to be turned. The process is an aerobic one (one that consumes oxygen). Turning the pile exposes more of it to oxygen.

Manure piles are not allowed near lakes, however.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
11-08-2020 00:52
James___
★★★★★
(3454)
Xadoman wrote:
I do not have a septic system. I am building a dry closet( two chamber composting toilet). Before that I had an oldschool dry closet - simple hole in the ground but I am afraid it pollutes too much. I questioned about septic systems because the algae was constantly blooming in the lake this summer. The water eventually cleared up a few days ago but I wonder what could be the reason for such blooming. Some have installed septics just nearby the lake and I have a feeling that those could have something to do with it. Also of course there are fertilizers from agriculture.



It might be a lack of solar radiation. Check out Seattle's Green Lake. It's green because of algae. And we all know it never rains in Seattle nor is cloudy. That's Sequim for ya

Edited on 11-08-2020 00:53
11-08-2020 02:29
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(336)
5-7 years? O don't think you are doing something right... On farms, they have this thing, called a 'manure pile', which only takes months to 'mature'. The key, seems to be in turning it, moving it around. Some farmers say, it's to avoid growing those mushrooms so popular with the 'hippie' kids, who bust up fences look for them...


Displacement of one chamber is about 2.5 m3( 88ft3). Considering it is a summer house I expect that the chamber is going to be full not before 5-7 or even 10 years. Then I will use the other chamber and it takes another decade to become full. After that I need to empty the first chamber and from there I need to empty one chamber approximately once in a decade. The reason I made the chambers quite big is because I want the feces to compost as long as possible. I have seen videos from India where those kind of toilets are common that the composted manure is literally like soil and could be handled with bare hands. Also the longer the stuff is composted the more it becomes free from eggs of internal parasites. I have read that it takes many years when those eggs will eventually die off.

The surface area of lakes on Earth is unknown.


Lakes are getting smaller and smaller here as years go by. Nitrogen and phosphorus getting into the lakes from human activity has greatly accelerated this process.

Define 'bad shape'.


Too much nitrogen and phosphorus from human activity that gets into the lake causing algal and aquatic plants blooming. The lake is getting full of mud . Eventually the lake has no open water surface any more and turns to swamp.

Turning animal, eh? You know, the other residents could raise an issue with the State health department over this guy.


I do not want troubles with neighbours. Also I am not better with my current outhouse with a simple digged hole in the ground. My new composting toilet is going to have poured concrete walls and sealed as much as possible from the soil around it.
Edited on 11-08-2020 02:44
11-08-2020 02:47
James___
★★★★★
(3454)
@Xadoman, farms need to collect their run off. Channels that bypass dams are needed so fish can spawn. But those 2 things interfere with profit.
11-08-2020 03:00
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(336)
James___ wrote:
@Xadoman, farms need to collect their run off. Channels that bypass dams are needed so fish can spawn. But those 2 things interfere with profit.


I think the biggest problem for lakes are fertilizers that farmers use on their soil to get the crops to grow. I know that without the fertilizers stuff would not grow but much of that nitrogen and phosphorus reach eventually into the lakes and cause their accelerated aging. I also have a feeling that costal areas of seas and oceans that are currently beautiful sandy beaches will eventually turn to swamp like areas. It is a natural process but we have accelerated it a lot.
11-08-2020 03:10
James___
★★★★★
(3454)
Xadoman wrote:
James___ wrote:
@Xadoman, farms need to collect their run off. Channels that bypass dams are needed so fish can spawn. But those 2 things interfere with profit.


I think the biggest problem for lakes are fertilizers that farmers use on their soil to get the crops to grow. I know that without the fertilizers stuff would not grow but much of that nitrogen and phosphorus reach eventually into the lakes and cause their accelerated aging. I also have a feeling that costal areas of seas and oceans that are currently beautiful sandy beaches will eventually turn to swamp like areas. It is a natural process but we have accelerated it a lot.



With this I do agree with you. It is like your own situation and your concern for it. With farmers, would that make you 1 in a thousand or 1 in 10,000? And to be realistic, if you aren't tied into a modern septic system, then on a smaller scale, you are creating a negative impact.
At the same time, you're discussing it is helping to make other people aware of how we influence our environment. Myself, I take the easy out.
What is economically feasible and are we pursuing it? It's like you bringing biosolids into the discussion. That has been missing. At the same time it matters if ecological sustainability matters. The people in here owe you a Thank You for what you've brought to the forum. They won't say it so I did. Thank You.
Edited on 11-08-2020 03:34
11-08-2020 03:40
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2745)
You do realize that 'beautiful sandy beaches' aren't usually close to being natural? That's right, mostly man-made, and they truck in tons of sand every year to keep them that way for the tourists. Some of the world's most famous beaches, were never there, until somebody created them.

Lakes are in constant change. They get feed by rivers an streams, which carry sand and silt, that settle in the calm, slow moving waters. You seem to think your lake problem, is entirely local, people live along the shore. The water that feeds it, travels hundreds of miles... You, and your fellow summer vacationers, likely have little, to no impact, or not quite the way you are thinking. Nutrients are just on factor that encourages algae growth. The water level in some lakes, can change dramatically throughout the year, which isn't great for tourists, or residents, who like to go fishing on the lake, take the boat out, just enjoy the water. The water level can be artificially manipulated, which allows some stagnation. Fish and wild life also control algae growth, but many of those, are considered undesirable, their populations removed, or greatly reduced. Some of the 'great' fishing lakes are regularly overstocked with the desirable species, which tend to dominate those that would be keeping the lake clean, not to mention, they crap a lot...

Can only guess, since there are a lot of lakes, and many are unique. There are also man-made lakes, that were poorly planned, as an ecosystem. Some made for 'fish ponds', some as reservoirs, to retain water for drought. Some as basically retention ponds, for storm run off. Some of Florida's lakes, were created, simply as the source of fill dirt, to raise land developments above the water table, so the aren't constantly flooded. Florida was mostly swamp land in the past.
11-08-2020 03:48
James___
★★★★★
(3454)
Harvey, the beaches in Florida are natural, white sand beaches. The issue is actually erosion caused by the tides. Why along Florida's coasts ships suck sand off of the ocean floor and load up a barge which deposits it near shore. Thus the coast line is preserved.
If not for such efforts to preserve Florida's beaches, one day there would be no Florida. Why the sink holes.
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk00N_b0b_jjD6jWfgkWMiTEfiHWkfQ:1597106901562&source=univ&tbm=isch&q=sink+holes+florida&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj9rKTs9pHrAhWMAp0JHSZVDoEQsAR6BAgDEAE&biw=1913&bih=952
11-08-2020 04:11
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2745)
James___ wrote:
Harvey, the beaches in Florida are natural, white sand beaches. The issue is actually erosion caused by the tides. Why along Florida's coasts ships suck sand off of the ocean floor and load up a barge which deposits it near shore. Thus the coast line is preserved.
If not for such efforts to preserve Florida's beaches, one day there would be no Florida. Why the sink holes.
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk00N_b0b_jjD6jWfgkWMiTEfiHWkfQ:1597106901562&source=univ&tbm=isch&q=sink+holes+florida&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj9rKTs9pHrAhWMAp0JHSZVDoEQsAR6BAgDEAE&biw=1913&bih=952


Florida is basically on big beach... What we call soil, is dirty sand. It's exactly like beach sand, with decaying, organic matter (tree leaves). The tourist beaches, though existed, were never like they are now, and need sand trucked in, to keep them pretty. The dredged sand ain't pretty, not to mention mixed with a lot of undesirably crap.
11-08-2020 04:46
James___
★★★★★
(3454)
HarveyH55 wrote:
James___ wrote:
Harvey, the beaches in Florida are natural, white sand beaches. The issue is actually erosion caused by the tides. Why along Florida's coasts ships suck sand off of the ocean floor and load up a barge which deposits it near shore. Thus the coast line is preserved.
If not for such efforts to preserve Florida's beaches, one day there would be no Florida. Why the sink holes.
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk00N_b0b_jjD6jWfgkWMiTEfiHWkfQ:1597106901562&source=univ&tbm=isch&q=sink+holes+florida&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj9rKTs9pHrAhWMAp0JHSZVDoEQsAR6BAgDEAE&biw=1913&bih=952


Florida is basically on big beach... What we call soil, is dirty sand. It's exactly like beach sand, with decaying, organic matter (tree leaves). The tourist beaches, though existed, were never like they are now, and need sand trucked in, to keep them pretty. The dredged sand ain't pretty, not to mention mixed with a lot of undesirably crap.



I've lived in Florida. Disinformation gets old. I've actually lived from Miami to Jacksonville. And you're from Oregon, right?
with decaying, organic matter (tree leaves)


If ya'all don't get this. The sand on the beach isn't top soil or loam. And a lot of sand is carbonate material and silica. It's a matter of knowing your ecosystems.
Edited on 11-08-2020 05:21
11-08-2020 11:07
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2745)
James___ wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
James___ wrote:
Harvey, the beaches in Florida are natural, white sand beaches. The issue is actually erosion caused by the tides. Why along Florida's coasts ships suck sand off of the ocean floor and load up a barge which deposits it near shore. Thus the coast line is preserved.
If not for such efforts to preserve Florida's beaches, one day there would be no Florida. Why the sink holes.
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk00N_b0b_jjD6jWfgkWMiTEfiHWkfQ:1597106901562&source=univ&tbm=isch&q=sink+holes+florida&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj9rKTs9pHrAhWMAp0JHSZVDoEQsAR6BAgDEAE&biw=1913&bih=952


Florida is basically on big beach... What we call soil, is dirty sand. It's exactly like beach sand, with decaying, organic matter (tree leaves). The tourist beaches, though existed, were never like they are now, and need sand trucked in, to keep them pretty. The dredged sand ain't pretty, not to mention mixed with a lot of undesirably crap.



I've lived in Florida. Disinformation gets old. I've actually lived from Miami to Jacksonville. And you're from Oregon, right?
with decaying, organic matter (tree leaves)


If ya'all don't get this. The sand on the beach isn't top soil or loam. And a lot of sand is carbonate material and silica. It's a matter of knowing your ecosystems.


The only 'top soil' you find, is store-bought... Staying a few nights at Motel 6, doesn't real qualify as being a resident. I've lived in Florida, longer than Oregon.
11-08-2020 22:14
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13933)
Xadoman wrote:
5-7 years? O don't think you are doing something right... On farms, they have this thing, called a 'manure pile', which only takes months to 'mature'. The key, seems to be in turning it, moving it around. Some farmers say, it's to avoid growing those mushrooms so popular with the 'hippie' kids, who bust up fences look for them...


Displacement of one chamber is about 2.5 m3( 88ft3). Considering it is a summer house I expect that the chamber is going to be full not before 5-7 or even 10 years. Then I will use the other chamber and it takes another decade to become full. After that I need to empty the first chamber and from there I need to empty one chamber approximately once in a decade. The reason I made the chambers quite big is because I want the feces to compost as long as possible. I have seen videos from India where those kind of toilets are common that the composted manure is literally like soil and could be handled with bare hands. Also the longer the stuff is composted the more it becomes free from eggs of internal parasites. I have read that it takes many years when those eggs will eventually die off.

Whatever turns your key, dude.
Xadoman wrote:
The surface area of lakes on Earth is unknown.


Lakes are getting smaller and smaller here as years go by. Nitrogen and phosphorus getting into the lakes from human activity has greatly accelerated this process.

The surface area of lakes on Earth is unknown.
Xadoman wrote:
Define 'bad shape'.


Too much nitrogen and phosphorus from human activity that gets into the lake causing algal and aquatic plants blooming.

Actually, sunlight does that. The nitrogen and phosphorus coming from lawn fertilizers only help plant life.
Xadoman wrote:
The lake is getting full of mud.

Mud is neither algae nor aquatic plants. That sediment is coming from somewhere else. Runoff from the properties around the lake, perhaps.
Xadoman wrote:
Eventually the lake has no open water surface any more and turns to swamp.

A swamp is a lake. Since your lake is obviously very shallow, it is simply returning to the swamp from whence it came, since no one is dredging it anymore.
Xadoman wrote:
Turning animal, eh? You know, the other residents could raise an issue with the State health department over this guy.

I do not want troubles with neighbours.

You already HAVE trouble with your neighbors.
Xadoman wrote:
Also I am not better with my current outhouse with a simple digged hole in the ground.

Actually, you are. Even these are a lot better than just shitting in the yard.
Xadoman wrote:
My new composting toilet is going to have poured concrete walls and sealed as much as possible from the soil around it.

Sounds like an expensive hole in the ground. What are you going to do when rainwater fills it up?


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
11-08-2020 22:19
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13933)
James___ wrote:
@Xadoman, farms need to collect their run off. Channels that bypass dams are needed so fish can spawn. But those 2 things interfere with profit.

They don't need to collect it so much as deal with it in a sensible manner. There is no reason to collect runoff. What are you going to do with all that water once you collect it?

Diverting it into a retention pond is oftentimes an effective solution. Another is to simply leave it to soak in the soil and water your crop.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
11-08-2020 22:30
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13933)
Xadoman wrote:
James___ wrote:
@Xadoman, farms need to collect their run off. Channels that bypass dams are needed so fish can spawn. But those 2 things interfere with profit.


I think the biggest problem for lakes are fertilizers that farmers use on their soil to get the crops to grow.

Nope. Most farms aren't near lakes. They generally want flat land as well. Less runoff and easier to plow the fields. They often put berms around any nearby river, if there is one, to prevent a) the river flooding and washing out their land with rocks and gravel, and b) to prevent their soil, crops, and fertilizer from eroding into the river.
Xadoman wrote:
I know that without the fertilizers stuff would not grow but much of that nitrogen and phosphorus reach eventually into the lakes and cause their accelerated aging.
Lakes don't have an age.
Xadoman wrote:
I also have a feeling that coastal areas of seas and oceans that are currently beautiful sandy beaches will eventually turn to swamp like areas.
Most coastal areas on the west coast is limestone cliffs and gravel, or limestone cliffs and sand. Underneath that is the gravel. There are actually few coastal areas capable of salt water marsh. That's why they are important to protect them to a reasonable degree. The east coast is mostly limestone and sand, but there is more saltwater marsh. River deltas are often good locations for these, since continuing sediment from the river keeps building up the flat areas necessary for such marshes. The gulf coast is already mostly saltwater marsh due to it's flat terrain and large river deltas along it.

None of it is due to fertilizers. A saltwater marsh is a natural formation.

Xadoman wrote:
It is a natural process but we have accelerated it a lot.
Nope. Not enough fertilizer. We can't even make that much fertilizer.

I am convinced your 'lake' is just a swamp, that someone cleared out sometime in the past, and it's simply reverting to it's natural state.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
11-08-2020 22:33
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13933)
HarveyH55 wrote:
You do realize that 'beautiful sandy beaches' aren't usually close to being natural? That's right, mostly man-made, and they truck in tons of sand every year to keep them that way for the tourists. Some of the world's most famous beaches, were never there, until somebody created them.

Lakes are in constant change. They get feed by rivers an streams, which carry sand and silt, that settle in the calm, slow moving waters. You seem to think your lake problem, is entirely local, people live along the shore. The water that feeds it, travels hundreds of miles... You, and your fellow summer vacationers, likely have little, to no impact, or not quite the way you are thinking. Nutrients are just on factor that encourages algae growth. The water level in some lakes, can change dramatically throughout the year, which isn't great for tourists, or residents, who like to go fishing on the lake, take the boat out, just enjoy the water. The water level can be artificially manipulated, which allows some stagnation. Fish and wild life also control algae growth, but many of those, are considered undesirable, their populations removed, or greatly reduced. Some of the 'great' fishing lakes are regularly overstocked with the desirable species, which tend to dominate those that would be keeping the lake clean, not to mention, they crap a lot...

Can only guess, since there are a lot of lakes, and many are unique. There are also man-made lakes, that were poorly planned, as an ecosystem. Some made for 'fish ponds', some as reservoirs, to retain water for drought. Some as basically retention ponds, for storm run off. Some of Florida's lakes, were created, simply as the source of fill dirt, to raise land developments above the water table, so the aren't constantly flooded. Florida was mostly swamp land in the past.

Of course the sinkholes tend to result in lakes in Florida as well!

The last lake I visited in Florida was 2 miles wide, and ten miles long. It was only hip deep at it's deepest point. Marsh was all around it, except for a few developed lots that removed it. Wonderful gator habitat!


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
11-08-2020 22:58
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13933)
James___ wrote:
Harvey, the beaches in Florida are natural, white sand beaches. The issue is actually erosion caused by the tides. Why along Florida's coasts ships suck sand off of the ocean floor and load up a barge which deposits it near shore. Thus the coast line is preserved.
If not for such efforts to preserve Florida's beaches, one day there would be no Florida. Why the sink holes.
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk00N_b0b_jjD6jWfgkWMiTEfiHWkfQ:1597106901562&source=univ&tbm=isch&q=sink+holes+florida&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj9rKTs9pHrAhWMAp0JHSZVDoEQsAR6BAgDEAE&biw=1913&bih=952


Someday you'll learn that Google is not God.

Florida has many invasive species. Indeed, Florida itself is basically an invasive bit of land. It migrated across the Atlantic, probably from Africa. It was entirely underwater until it surfaced when it collided with the North American plate. Florida is still rising, although very slowly.

Geologically, Florida is mostly limestone. Rains wash out limestone (rain is naturally slightly acid) leaving big holes under the surface. The surface collapses, leaving a sinkhole. Florida also has many springs, issuing very clear water. This is the surface water flowing under this limestone and surfacing elsewhere.

Below this is a huge aquifer, extending all the way to the Carolina's. It is fed by runoff from the Appalachian mountains and surrounding areas. Most wells in Florida tap into this, not the surface water.

Most of Florida's coast is marsh or sand. The sandy areas often shift with the storms, producing some sand dunes offshore. This can be a problem for Miami hotels along the beach because they have to either truck new sand in again, or get a barge and a very large backhoe and go out to dig up the dune out there and bring it back to the beach. Moving this much material ain't cheap. They do it, though, for the vacationers at these hotels.

Elsewhere, it's pretty much left natural. Smart folks don't build out on the coast due to summer and autumn storms (hurricane season) that floods or erodes their land that their house sits on, causing the whole house to wash away into the sea. The indians that lived there knew this too, and tended to build their villages somewhat inland, using the vegetation to protect themselves from the brunt of the storms.

Florida is flat. Very flat. There are high spots and low spots in it though.
Me? I prefer the mountains. Real mountains some 10,000 feet high. Of course there are risks associated with that kind of landscape as well, especially landslides during our storm season (fall-winter), and again in spring during the thaw, which can work some large boulders loose.

Of course we don't get the wide variety of critters here that you do in Florida, but there is a lot less critters that bite, sting, drop from trees, or slither. Our most dangerous animal here, as it is in the United States, is deer.

I like Florida in its own way. It's a wonderfully wacky variety of people, terrain, and critters. One part I find particularly amusing is the world view of The Everglades, which the world views as a kind of Eden-like swamp.

Most residents of Florida drive through this creept place as quickly as possible. There are a few hermits that make their home here, but you don't want to meet them.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
11-08-2020 23:07
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(336)
A swamp is a lake. Since your lake is obviously very shallow, it is simply returning to the swamp from whence it came, since no one is dredging it anymore.


Swamp is not a lake. Lakes turn to swamp after their life as lake is over. My lake s surface area is ca 7 hectars and at the deepest spot it is about 9 meters deep. It is a small natural lake . No one has ever dredged it. The mud is probably 5m thick at the bottom of the lake in some places. Dredging a lake is expensive as hell. The lake loses its surface area as years go by. Of course it does not happen overnight but I can see with my own eyes where the shore of the lake once has been. Now there grows a forest.

Sounds like an expensive hole in the ground. What are you going to do when rainwater fills it up?


I am going to install surface water drain pipes around the footing. For backfill I am going to use concrete sand. I read from eng-tips forum that concrete sand is the best backfill material for the drainage system. It is a natural filter. Those gravel and geotextile filters could get clogged very quickly if something went wrong during installation. Concrete sand on the other hand should be quite fool proof and it works for decades without problems.
I have to admit that the whole concrete pour job was quite expensive. I used stainless steel rebar( aisi 304) for longevity of the structure. I also used glass fiber rebar for the bottom slab.

Lakes don't have an age.


I would say the lake has died if it turns into swamp. It serves no purpose as lake any more. You can not swim and go to fishing anymore. On the other hand you can collect some berries from the swamp which is what we do here all the time from swamps.

Nope. Most farms aren't near lakes.


All useful land is plowed nowadays. They get subsidized money for hectars they have. The more hectars they have the more money they get.
Edited on 11-08-2020 23:28
12-08-2020 01:48
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13933)
Xadoman wrote:
A swamp is a lake. Since your lake is obviously very shallow, it is simply returning to the swamp from whence it came, since no one is dredging it anymore.


Swamp is not a lake.

Yes it is. It's a type of lake (or pond).
Xadoman wrote:
Lakes turn to swamp after their life as lake is over.

Lakes don't age.
Xadoman wrote:
My lake s surface area is ca 7 hectars and at the deepest spot it is about 9 meters deep.

So...about 25 ft deep. Nothin'. It's always been a swamp.
Xadoman wrote:
It is a small natural lake.

No. Someone must've dredged it at some point.
Xadoman wrote:
No one has ever dredged it.

How do you know? It was probably dredged before you showed up in the area.
Xadoman wrote:
The mud is probably 5m thick at the bottom of the lake in some places.

So...approx 16 feet deep. It's a swamp. It has always been a swamp.
Xadoman wrote:
Dredging a lake is expensive as hell.

Pretty easy to do, actually, especially if it was done a long time ago before they required permits for that stuff.
Xadoman wrote:
The lake loses its surface area as years go by.

Just returning to swamp.
Xadoman wrote:
Of course it does not happen overnight but I can see with my own eyes where the shore of the lake once has been.

If the water is receding, there isn't enough rain, or a landslide went into the lake.
Xadoman wrote:
Now there grows a forest.

Then that is on fill. Trees don't grow in water, with some exception.
Xadoman wrote:
Sounds like an expensive hole in the ground. What are you going to do when rainwater fills it up?

I am going to install surface water drain pipes around the footing.

Draining to?
Xadoman wrote:
For backfill I am going to use concrete sand.

Good stuff for that.
Xadoman wrote:
I read from eng-tips forum that concrete sand is the best backfill material for the drainage system. It is a natural filter.
It works pretty good. This is just course sand that is used to make concrete. People used to put it in sandboxes for their kids.
Xadoman wrote:
Those gravel and geotextile filters could get clogged very quickly if something went wrong during installation.

Don't use geotextile in drains. That stuff is for roadbeds. Gravel by itself is also another good backfill.
Xadoman wrote:
Concrete sand on the other hand should be quite fool proof and it works for decades without problems.

Either would work. Just leave the geotextile out of it.
Xadoman wrote:
I have to admit that the whole concrete pour job was quite expensive.

I bet it was!
Xadoman wrote:
I used stainless steel rebar( aisi 304) for longevity of the structure.
I also used glass figer rebar for the bottom slab.

Wasn't expensive enough for ya, huh?
Xadoman wrote:
Lakes don't have an age.

I would say the lake has died if it turns into swamp.

I would say it never was a natural lake, other than a swamp.
Xadoman wrote:
It serves no purpose as lake any more.
Sure it does. You'd be amazed at the critters that can live in such a place.
Xadoman wrote:
You can not swim and go to fishing anymore.
Get a pool to go swimming. Not many fish live in a swamp. If there were fish in the thing, they may have been stocked. What is the water inlet for the thing? What is the water outlet?
Xadoman wrote:
On the other hand you can collect some berries from the swamp which is what we do here all the time from swamps.

Enjoy.
Xadoman wrote:
Nope. Most farms aren't near lakes.

All useful land is plowed nowadays. They get subsidized money for hectars they have. The more hectars they have the more money they get.

Subsidizing is irrelevant. The money they get is irrelevant to your topic.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
12-08-2020 02:01
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2745)
A lot of lakes get drained, and muck scraped up, and hauled off. Usually a long project too. Lot of land developments have decorative water features. In Florida, those were often the source of a lot of fill dirt, to raise the homes and streets above the flood plane. They could care less how long that 'lake' looks pretty, or much of anything else, once they sell all the lots. Likely none of the property owners care enough to foot the bill, or willing to have the lake drain for a year or two.
12-08-2020 10:15
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(336)
HarveyH55 wrote:
A lot of lakes get drained, and muck scraped up, and hauled off. Usually a long project too. Lot of land developments have decorative water features. In Florida, those were often the source of a lot of fill dirt, to raise the homes and streets above the flood plane. They could care less how long that 'lake' looks pretty, or much of anything else, once they sell all the lots. Likely none of the property owners care enough to foot the bill, or willing to have the lake drain for a year or two.


It is possible to train an artificial lake that has a dam. Natural lakes can not be drained. The only solution to save the natural lake from turning to swamp and losing its open water surface are is to pump mud out of it. It is expensive as hell but occasionally they have done it because they want to preserve some beautiful lakes where people can go swimming or fishing. Nature always wants to take over lakes and turn them into swamp.
Here is for example a project I found from web to save a lake from turning to swamp:
http://www.peipsivald.ee/documents/18275534/20561691/Lahepera+j%C3%A4rve+insenertehniline+tegevuskava.pdf/7154d497-fa29-47cd-916a-1fc59b732e76
12-08-2020 10:50
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(336)
No. Someone must've dredged it at some point.


It is a natural lake. God nows how old it is. People had no technology to dredge a lake back in a day.

Pretty easy to do, actually, especially if it was done a long time ago before they required permits for that stuff.


What kind of technology are you talking about? I am not sure about dredging a lake with a shovel. For example trees on the shore of the lake are aproximately 200-300 years old.

I bet it was!


Compared to a septic system installation it was not so bad. I would say it turns out cheaper in the long run. Leach fields get clogged as years go by and they need to renew them. They also need to empty the septic approximately once in a year and it also costs some money. Over the years it adds up. My solution has no such expenses other than my own time to empty a pit full of composted manure once in a decade.

Wasn't expensive enough for ya, huh?


I went for the longevity for the structure. I read from eng-tips forum that common iron will rust pretty quickly in concrete. If it rusts then it expands 4 times in volume and works as a hydralic jack and causes the concrete to spall from the structure. It all depends on conditions but it could happen as fast as 30 years from construction. Typically 50 years is considered useful life for concrete structures with common iron. Feces and urine in the pit will cause much quicker corrosion of the iron and that is why I went for fiberglass and stainless steel rebar. Considering all of this the cost of stainless steel rebar aint nuthing but a peanut in the long run.

Subsidizing is irrelevant. The money they get is irrelevant to your topic.


Just wanted to point out that they will plow anything they can nowadays because of the free money they get for the hectar. They would plow the swamp if they could. Fields beside lakes are plowed and those are getting 3-4 times fertilized during the growing season. No wonder some of the fertilizers reach to the lake.
Edited on 12-08-2020 10:53
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