Hot Water Unit

James___ wrote:Heat "is" but it cannot be defined by "temperature".

James___ wrote: And "temperature" cannot be defined by "heat".

James___ wrote:His freezer works by removing "heat".

James___ wrote: It's a flow of "heat" from cold to warm.

IBdaMann wrote:
[

James___ wrote:Heat "is" but it cannot be defined by "temperature".

Heat is a flow of thermal energy from one body of matter to another.

James___ wrote: Thermal energy does not have to be absorbed to be "heat".

James___ wrote: When it is absorbed then it's heat content is understood.

James___ wrote: The solar wind is one example of this.

James___ wrote: It has "heat" because of its "flow" even if it is not absorbed.

James___ wrote: When it is absorbed, then the "heat content" in its flow is understood.

James___ wrote:This is one application of thermal energy.

James___ wrote:And sycamores like oak trees are actually pretty cool don't you think?

IBdaMann wrote:

James___ wrote:This is one application of thermal energy.

Nope. The inverse square law applies to emanating waves.

James___ wrote:And sycamores like oak trees are actually pretty cool don't you think?

The problem with Sycamores is that you cannot use their wood to build a Bessler wheel.

James___ wrote:How the inverse square law is applied is wrong.

James___ wrote: With Bessler, it is quite possible that he realized how to convert one form of energy into another.

James___ wrote: One example of this is a solar panel. It performs no work yet creates energy.

IBdaMann wrote:

James___ wrote:How the inverse square law is applied is wrong.

All that matters is whether the inverse square law is computed wrong ... or not.

It's math. It's for wave propagation over a given distance.

James___ wrote:We know energy cannot be created. Thus no universe exists.

IBdaMann wrote:

James___ wrote:We know energy cannot be created. Thus no universe exists.

We know that life cannot spring out of non-life. Thus no life exists.


... well, no intelligent life at least.

James___ wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

James___ wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

James___ wrote:And yet heat is once again E = hv

Nope. It is not.

That is the formula for computing energy, not for computing any flow of energy.

Just can't accept it when you're wrong, can you? A "flow" of energy will have a wavelength.

Heat has no frequency.

This is where philosophy has failed you. When a flow of energy occurs, it emanates from a source. And you are familiar with black body radiation, that allows for many different frequencies of "heat" to be radiated.

James___ wrote:
With feces, if treated, it can be used as fertilizer. An example is that on a diary farm, the methane can be collected and used to power an engine. I think some farms are doing this. Then the source of the methane can be spread as fertilizer on that farm as is it slows soil erosion. The fecal material came from the grass grown on that farm, right?
Why is light and heat the same thing? They both have a source that emits them. While there is visible light which is heat has a frequency between ~4 * 10^14 to 8 * 10^14 hz. Above and below those frequencies are all other functions of "wave" energy found.

The specific heat capacity of a material is the energy required to raise one kilogram (kg) of the material by one degree Celsius (°C). The specific heat capacity of water is 4,200 joules per kilogram per degree Celsius (J/kg°C).

1 Hertz = 6.62606957030801E-34 Joule

Heat is not light. There is no frequency in heat. Heat is not heat capacity.


I think that 1 hz = 6.626^34 joules demonstrates that light is heat just as heat is light.
And now we have defined "is" as in "what "is" a flow of energy". It is light at a specific frequency. It is also called electromagnetic radiation. Its frequency or hz determines how it affects matter that absorbs it such as in black body radiation or if it's refracted as with snow which is highly reflective.

James___ wrote:
IBDM, you need to quit getting caught up in definitions. That doesn't allow for you to consider application. Heat and light are both electromagnetic radiation.

James___ wrote:

gfm7175 wrote:

James___ wrote:
IBDM, you need to quit getting caught up in definitions. That doesn't allow for you to consider application. Heat and light are both electromagnetic radiation.

YEAH IBD!!!!! Just forget about definitions!!! Screw 'em!!! Just start speaking Liberal instead...

Jeeze... why do you even care about definitions anyway, IBD?? They're sooooooooo yesterday...... Get with the times, man!

He said that watts is a measure of power. In our atmosphere, the amount of energy in it is measured as "watts per square meter" or w/m^2. That is not power but is energy.
What he gave was one definition.

p.s., autocorrect, have to watch out for it.

James___ wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

James___ wrote: ....the amount of energy in it is measured as "watts per square meter" or w/m^2.

That is called "Radiance" which is Power/Area

This is one of the reasons why I think you and gfm go to the same church. It's not power/radiance for the simple reason it's not controlled. Power like with the curling irons that girls like you and gfm use have a power/area relationship because of the wattage of your curling irons and the surface area of the iron itself. You ladies need to get out more often and breath the fresh, invigorating air of science.
It's actually pretty interesting. I mean our atmosphere is probably cooler than what scientists have made it out to be.

p.s., @All, the reason energy in our atmosphere is measured as w/m^2 is because it is ambient energy.
ambient; relating to the immediate surroundings of something. And with me, might be able to show how this is applicable to atmospheric temperatures.

Spongy Iris wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:

gfm7175 wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:
As IBDM knows, clouds don't trap heat, they block cold

Must be why, every time clouds roll in, we get a higher low.

It is not possible to trap heat.

Clouds can't do it either.

You can slow it down. For example...

You cannot slow or trap heat.

Spongy Iris wrote:
Say the high for the day outside is 90 degrees F. I will keep all the windows open, but won't use AC, unless it's over 95.

Fine.

Spongy Iris wrote:
The high inside my house will probably barely reach 85. So heat was slowed down by the roof over my head.

Nope. You cannot slow or trap heat.

Spongy Iris wrote:
Then on the flip side, say the low for that night is 55, after the day's high of 90. I will still keep all the windows open to cool it off from 85, but the temp inside might just drop to 70. So the roof over my head slowed down some cold.

Nope. You can't slow or trap heat. Heat is not cold. Heat is not hot. 'Cold' and 'Hot' are nothing more than subjective descriptions. Heat is the flow of thermal energy. Heat has no temperature.

Then why doesn't the ice in my freezer melt ?

Because your freezer keeps the water cold enough so that it remains solid.

And the heat outside my freezer, hasn't my freezer blocked it? No?

You cannot store or trap heat. You cannot block heat.
Heat is not inside or outside your freezer. Heat has no temperature.

Ok fine keep talking gibberish dude.

James___ wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:

Into the Night wrote:
Heat has no temperature.

Ok fine keep talking gibberish dude.

Talk about a paradox. Heat "is" but it cannot be defined by "temperature". And "temperature" cannot be defined by "heat".

James___ wrote:
"Is" is basically nothing if it cannot be defined. This then suggests that life does does exist because what "is" cannot be defined. Kind of wish I did drugs as a kid so I could understand how nothing is something because nothing allows for something. Thermodynamics explains this quite well.

James___ wrote:
p.s., this is when you guys are "fun" to deal with.

@Spongy, he can't accept that life is a paradox and we're still here. He needs to know why we're here and no one really knows that. We just have to deal with one simple fact. We are here.

James___ wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

I explained this to you above. Heat is a flow of thermal energy from one body of matter to another. Your freezer works by creating heat, i.e. a flow of

His freezer works by removing "heat". It's a flow of "heat" from cold to warm.
I think now I know why scientists get things wrong. They don't understand the work that is performed.

duncan61 wrote:
Diesel engine Kerosene fridge

duncan61 wrote:
Diesel engine Kerosene fridge

duncan61 wrote:
In Australia, Edward Hallstrom (later Sir Edward) produced his first kerosene-powered refrigerator in his Sydney backyard. He travelled to outback stations to sell the machines.
A kerosene fridge has a sealed network of tubes and chambers holding water, ammonia and hydrogen gas. A flame heats a chamber holding a solution of water and ammonia until the liquid boils. The ammonia gas rises to another chamber, the condenser, where it cools back into a liquid.
I have seen old kero fridges and there is a small flame at the back burning slowly.They were not that great but better than the wet hessian sacking box they replaced in outback areas

James___ wrote:We've discussed this in here and ...

James___ wrote:As a gas, they give up their heat but when compressed into a liquid, they absorb it.

James___ wrote: This can get into a complicated discussion about conservation of energy and the different states of matter.

James___ wrote: Most people would think that a gas when compressed would not absorb heat but would emit it.

duncan61 wrote:
I have a permit to fit autogas to mobile applications.A few things I remember well
.Autogas is 85%propane and 15%butane
.The butane helps the ignition process
.The octane rating of Autogas is 120,It is more powerful than petrol but retro fitting it to a combustion engine designed for petrol is not ideal,Autogas burns best at a ratio of 14:1 and a compression ratio of 13:1
.LPG boils at -21
.Autogas compresses to liquid at 270psi
.Butane is a yellow flame like cigarette lighters
.Domestic and camping cookers use a 50/50 mix of butane propane
Regards this comment
First, you have it backwards. Second, it has nothing to do with the state of the matter. Thermal energy always flows from higher temperature to lower temperature.
If I place warm beer in a ice slurry it is the ice that has the energy transferring to the warm beer at ambient.Heat always flows from higher temperature to lower temperature.

.

The evaporator is supplied with hydrogen. The hydrogen passes across the surface of the ammonia. It lowers the ammonia vapor pressure enough to allow the liquid ammonia to evaporate. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~mnr/fridge.html

duncan61 wrote:
In Australia, Edward Hallstrom (later Sir Edward) produced his first kerosene-powered refrigerator in his Sydney backyard. He travelled to outback stations to sell the machines.
A kerosene fridge has a sealed network of tubes and chambers holding water, ammonia and hydrogen gas. A flame heats a chamber holding a solution of water and ammonia until the liquid boils. The ammonia gas rises to another chamber, the condenser, where it cools back into a liquid.
I have seen old kero fridges and there is a small flame at the back burning slowly.They were not that great but better than the wet hessian sacking box they replaced in outback areas

James___ wrote:

duncan61 wrote:
In Australia, Edward Hallstrom (later Sir Edward) produced his first kerosene-powered refrigerator in his Sydney backyard. He travelled to outback stations to sell the machines.
A kerosene fridge has a sealed network of tubes and chambers holding water, ammonia and hydrogen gas. A flame heats a chamber holding a solution of water and ammonia until the liquid boils. The ammonia gas rises to another chamber, the condenser, where it cools back into a liquid.
I have seen old kero fridges and there is a small flame at the back burning slowly.They were not that great but better than the wet hessian sacking box they replaced in outback areas

We've discussed this in here and now we know who came up with it. This goes along with CO2 as a refrigerant. Matter/gas changing states. As a gas, they give up their heat but when compressed into a liquid, they absorb it.

James___ wrote:
This can get into a complicated discussion about conservation of energy and the different states of matter.

James___ wrote:
Most people would think that a gas when compressed would not absorb heat but would emit it.

James___ wrote:
I think that someone at some time did testing to find out what seems "right" isn't. Something like this is considered as being counter intuitive. It simply goes against logic.

James___ wrote:
And this does play into atmospheric chemistry and physics.

James___ wrote:
And as you guys know, it is something that I have no interest in. Trust me, okay?

duncan61 wrote:
I have a permit to fit autogas to mobile applications.A few things I remember well
.Autogas is 85%propane and 15%butane
.The butane helps the ignition process
.The octane rating of Autogas is 120,

duncan61 wrote:
It is more powerful than petrol but retro fitting it to a combustion engine designed for petrol is not ideal,Autogas burns best at a ratio of 14:1 and a compression ratio of 13:1
.LPG boils at -21

duncan61 wrote:
.Autogas compresses to liquid at 270psi
.Butane is a yellow flame like cigarette lighters
.Domestic and camping cookers use a 50/50 mix of butane propane

duncan61 wrote:
Regards this comment
First, you have it backwards. Second, it has nothing to do with the state of the matter. Thermal energy always flows from higher temperature to lower temperature.
If I place warm beer in a ice slurry it is the ice that has the energy transferring to the warm beer at ambient.Heat always flows from higher temperature to lower temperature.

Into the Night wrote:

James___ wrote:

duncan61 wrote:
In Australia, Edward Hallstrom (later Sir Edward) produced his first kerosene-powered refrigerator in his Sydney backyard. He travelled to outback stations to sell the machines.
A kerosene fridge has a sealed network of tubes and chambers holding water, ammonia and hydrogen gas. A flame heats a chamber holding a solution of water and ammonia until the liquid boils. The ammonia gas rises to another chamber, the condenser, where it cools back into a liquid.
I have seen old kero fridges and there is a small flame at the back burning slowly.They were not that great but better than the wet hessian sacking box they replaced in outback areas

We've discussed this in here and now we know who came up with it. This goes along with CO2 as a refrigerant. Matter/gas changing states. As a gas, they give up their heat but when compressed into a liquid, they absorb it.

Nope. Compressing a gas into a liquid does not absorb heat.

James___ wrote:
This can get into a complicated discussion about conservation of energy and the different states of matter.

Most of which you deny.

James___ wrote:
Most people would think that a gas when compressed would not absorb heat but would emit it.

Heat flows from hot to cold. Never from cold to hot.

James___ wrote:
I think that someone at some time did testing to find out what seems "right" isn't. Something like this is considered as being counter intuitive. It simply goes against logic.

Yes it does. Void argument fallacy. You might try English. It works better.

James___ wrote:
And this does play into atmospheric chemistry and physics.

What does? Void argument fallacy.

James___ wrote:
And as you guys know, it is something that I have no interest in. Trust me, okay?

You have no context either.

Nope. Compressing a gas into a liquid does not absorb heat.

James___ wrote:
This can get into a complicated discussion about conservation of energy and the different states of matter.

James___ wrote:

Life happens. I'll talk to your mother about it, okay?

Most people would think that a gas when compressed would not absorb heat but would emit it.

James___ wrote:

duncan61 wrote:
I have a permit to fit autogas to mobile applications.A few things I remember well
.Autogas is 85%propane and 15%butane
.The butane helps the ignition process
.The octane rating of Autogas is 120,It is more powerful than petrol but retro fitting it to a combustion engine designed for petrol is not ideal,Autogas burns best at a ratio of 14:1 and a compression ratio of 13:1
.LPG boils at -21
.Autogas compresses to liquid at 270psi
.Butane is a yellow flame like cigarette lighters
.Domestic and camping cookers use a 50/50 mix of butane propane
Regards this comment
First, you have it backwards. Second, it has nothing to do with the state of the matter. Thermal energy always flows from higher temperature to lower temperature.
If I place warm beer in a ice slurry it is the ice that has the energy transferring to the warm beer at ambient.Heat always flows from higher temperature to lower temperature.

.

The composition of the "coolant" is separated. The water remains a liquid. The ammonia is "emitted" from the coolant. Changing "states" of matter.
[url]Thermal energy always flows from higher temperature to lower temperature.[/url]
And yet heat flows from your freezer into a warmer area. With a kerosene refrigerator, the coolant is heated so it will absorb cold and move it to warmer.
It's a process.

James___ wrote:
With an ammonia refrigerator, I wonder if hydronium because hydrogen as well as water is used with ammonia.
http://sure-amm.blogspot.com/2009/02/ammonia-ammonia-is-compound-of-nitrogen.html

And with this, is ammonia going from NH3 to NH4? With hydrogen in the process it seems like how it changes how heat can be released in the condenser. And then in the heat exchanger it can absorb it because the heat exchanger is cold. This is where it might go from NH3 to NH4. NH3 + H would seem to be a less dense mixture than NH4. With NH3 + H, the hydrogen is a gas. When it ionizes the NH3 it becomes a part of a liquid.

The evaporator is supplied with hydrogen. The hydrogen passes across the surface of the ammonia. It lowers the ammonia vapor pressure enough to allow the liquid ammonia to evaporate. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~mnr/fridge.html

James___ wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

James___ wrote:
[quote]duncan61 wrote:
In Australia, Edward Hallstrom (later Sir Edward) produced his first kerosene-powered refrigerator in his Sydney backyard. He travelled to outback stations to sell the machines.
A kerosene fridge has a sealed network of tubes and chambers holding water, ammonia and hydrogen gas. A flame heats a chamber holding a solution of water and ammonia until the liquid boils. The ammonia gas rises to another chamber, the condenser, where it cools back into a liquid.
I have seen old kero fridges and there is a small flame at the back burning slowly.They were not that great but better than the wet hessian sacking box they replaced in outback areas

We've discussed this in here and now we know who came up with it. This goes along with CO2 as a refrigerant. Matter/gas changing states. As a gas, they give up their heat but when compressed into a liquid, they absorb it.

Nope. Compressing a gas into a liquid does not absorb heat.

James___ wrote:
This can get into a complicated discussion about conservation of energy and the different states of matter.

Most of which you deny.

James___ wrote:
Most people would think that a gas when compressed would not absorb heat but would emit it.

Heat flows from hot to cold. Never from cold to hot.

James___ wrote:
I think that someone at some time did testing to find out what seems "right" isn't. Something like this is considered as being counter intuitive. It simply goes against logic.

Yes it does. Void argument fallacy. You might try English. It works better.

James___ wrote:
And this does play into atmospheric chemistry and physics.

What does? Void argument fallacy.

James___ wrote:
And as you guys know, it is something that I have no interest in. Trust me, okay?

You have no context either.

Nope. Compressing a gas into a liquid does not absorb heat.

James___ wrote:
This can get into a complicated discussion about conservation of energy and the different states of matter.

James___ wrote:

Life happens. I'll talk to your mother about it, okay?

Most people would think that a gas when compressed would not absorb heat but would emit it.

James___ wrote:

Mechanical means alters thermodynamics.

Enjoy

Into the Night wrote:

Heat flows from hot to cold. Never from cold to hot.

James___ wrote:

Mechanical means alters thermodynamics.

Enjoy

Never does. You can't ignore the laws of thermodynamics or suspend any of them for even a moment.

Into the Night wrote:

duncan61 wrote:
I have a permit to fit autogas to mobile applications.A few things I remember well
.Autogas is 85%propane and 15%butane
.The butane helps the ignition process
.The octane rating of Autogas is 120,

The octane rating of Autogas, as you describe it, is ZERO.

duncan61 wrote:
It is more powerful than petrol but retro fitting it to a combustion engine designed for petrol is not ideal,Autogas burns best at a ratio of 14:1 and a compression ratio of 13:1
.LPG boils at -21

There is approx 91k BTU in a gallon of propane. There is 120.3k BTU in a gallon of gasoline. There is 137.4k BTU in a gallon of diesel oil.

duncan61 wrote:
.Autogas compresses to liquid at 270psi
.Butane is a yellow flame like cigarette lighters
.Domestic and camping cookers use a 50/50 mix of butane propane

Maybe where you are, the ones we use in the States run on just propane.

duncan61 wrote:
Regards this comment
First, you have it backwards. Second, it has nothing to do with the state of the matter. Thermal energy always flows from higher temperature to lower temperature.
If I place warm beer in a ice slurry it is the ice that has the energy transferring to the warm beer at ambient.Heat always flows from higher temperature to lower temperature.

Ice has less energy than warm beer. Warm beer heats the ice. Ice doesn't heat warm beer. See the 2nd law of thermodynamics.