Gravity fed electrical generation system

Into the Night wrote:

GasGuzzler wrote:
Just had a chance to catch up on some reading here....

Dehammered,
I've been here a while and I can tell you this....ITN knows his shit. If you want to throw insults he'll be happy to toss them right back. He's quite good at it! On the other hand, if you want to discuss anything, and I mean ANYTHING, he will discuss to no end. His knowledge is quite incredible on a multitude of topics, so much so that I've often wondered if he is more than one person.

If you have questions, ask them and he will answer with the heart of a teacher that cares.

*humble bow*

GasGuzzler wrote:
I do have a question for you and ITN.

Up front I will say from your first post that your patent sounded like perpetual motion. I have no doubt it won't work. so...

Forget for a moment that that you are trying to create free energy. You talked about 100 gallons a minute available to a 1000 ft drop. 100 gpm seems pretty minuscule, doesn't seem like enough to generate anything substantial/worthwhile. How much do you think this would generate?

ITN, is there a way to calculate what kind of KW could be generated given ONLY these 2 factors? (100 gpm at 1000 ft of fall)

Assuming that the water is in a position to fall this far, such as sunlight moving water vapor into such position as rain, or another machine consuming energy to move water into that position:

Yes. There is a way to calculate it.

Water weighs approx 8.34lbs per gallon. We are talking 100 gallons dropping 1000 ft in a minute. This is equivalent to dropping a 834lb weight 1000 ft in that minute. Converting this to metric means dropping 378kg 305 meters in 60 seconds. This works out to be about 1920 watts.

To move that much water back into position to generate power again will also require 1920 watts, assuming no losses. The first law of thermodynamics states that dU=Q-W. The work we get out of the falling water (or W) is 1920 watts. The work to put the water back into place with no losses (or Q) is also 1920 watts. This results in a change of energy (or dU) of zero. In other words, there is no extra energy to extract from anywhere. All of the available energy is used to move the water back into position.

All machines have losses, however, in which some of the power is lost as waste heat. This means, in order to compensate for such losses and achieve a dU of zero, then MORE power will be required to raise the water back into position to generate W. In words, the lost heat is also part of W. Q will have to be raised correspondingly to cover such losses to again achieve no overall change in energy, where dU is again zero. That means you have to add additional energy from somewhere.

The only way to get usable energy out a machine is if dU is made positive. Then, and only then, is energy increasing in the machine, and you can safely increase W without causing the machine to stop. The only way to do that is to increase the energy added (or Q). You can get that additional energy from the Sun. That's what a hydroelectric power plant does.

....and the practical application of this magik machine is it would take 2 or 3 of these to power my house. (I use quite a bit with well pump, electric dryers, hot water and stove).

dehammer wrote:

....and the practical application of this magik machine is it would take 2 or 3 of these to power my house. (I use quite a bit with well pump, electric dryers, hot water and stove).

ONLY if your house is 750 foot tall. IF you happen to have a drop of 750 feet from the top of your house/property to the bottom, then you can use this.

GasGuzzler wrote:
You guys need to pay attention.

He already explained that the water comes from the ocean. The sun, through evaporation/condensation/rainfall, is the "pump" if you will, that returns the water to a position in the system where is can flow back through the turbine and create electricity. It violates no law of science.

GasGuzzler wrote:

dehammer wrote:

....and the practical application of this magik machine is it would take 2 or 3 of these to power my house. (I use quite a bit with well pump, electric dryers, hot water and stove).

ONLY if your house is 750 foot tall. IF you happen to have a drop of 750 feet from the top of your house/property to the bottom, then you can use this.

I've got about 80 ft of fall from the top of the driveway to the pond and the bottom. The house is somewhere in between. What could I do with that?

Jun 1, 2014 - In 2010 (the latest year for which data is available) New York City added 54,349,650 metric tons of carbon dioxide to the atmosphere = 148,903 tons a day = 6,204 tons an hour = 1.72 tons a second

GasGuzzler wrote:
....and that's why it sat in the patent office for 40 years. It has not been shown to work and even if it did, too expensive/not practical for most people.

But hey, I will not be the one to tell someone they're not capable or they can't do it. Go get some funding and try this thing. If nothing else you'll learn more than you already know.

dehammer wrote:

GasGuzzler wrote:
You guys need to pay attention.

He already explained that the water comes from the ocean. The sun, through evaporation/condensation/rainfall, is the "pump" if you will, that returns the water to a position in the system where is can flow back through the turbine and create electricity. It violates no law of science.

Neither does my system. It uses SPECIFIC gravity differences to move the water to the top.
...deleted Wikipedia link...

dehammer wrote:

GasGuzzler wrote:

dehammer wrote:

....and the practical application of this magik machine is it would take 2 or 3 of these to power my house. (I use quite a bit with well pump, electric dryers, hot water and stove).

ONLY if your house is 750 foot tall. IF you happen to have a drop of 750 feet from the top of your house/property to the bottom, then you can use this.

I've got about 80 ft of fall from the top of the driveway to the pond and the bottom. The house is somewhere in between. What could I do with that?

Nothing. The system would lose energy in that short a distance.

The best thing you could do if you wanted to use this for your personal use would to have a hole drilled to 400 feet and build a 350 tower above it. It would be too expensive for most people to do it themselves unless they happened to live on or next to a hill that was 750 foot tall, or next to a lake or ocean that dropped 750 foot (you could build a tower above the lake or ocean for part of that drop).

A friend once asked me if this would work inside a safe. My answer was "only if it is at least 500 foot tall".

GasGuzzler wrote:
....and that's why it sat in the patent office for 40 years. It has not been shown to work and even if it did, too expensive/not practical for most people.

But hey, I will not be the one to tell someone they're not capable or they can't do it. Go get some funding and try this thing. If nothing else you'll learn more than you already know.

dehammer wrote:
You are missing the point.

dehammer wrote:
Alarmist say we only have until 2030 to reduce our co2 emission.

dehammer wrote:
YET they do not care enough about the co2 emissions to build a comparatively cheap device that would cut co2 a large amount for a city.

dehammer wrote:
Take for example, New York City. They have well over 100 buildings over 750 foot. They have a polluted river and they complain about the lack of clean drinking water.

dehammer wrote:
Imagine if they required all of those buildings to add a system like this to their building.

dehammer wrote:
Consider that a number of those buildings were built after 1979,

dehammer wrote:
so they could have had the design integrated into their building design.

dehammer wrote:
During the day, those buildings would power not only themselves but a good chunk of the city,
if not all of it.

dehammer wrote:
At night, they would be able to produce hydrogen for cabs, busses and other vehicles.

dehammer wrote:
By having a city owned network of pipes bringing the hydrogen from the river,

dehammer wrote:
they could have clean drinking water as much as they wanted.

dehammer wrote:

Jun 1, 2014 - In 2010 (the latest year for which data is available) New York City added 54,349,650 metric tons of carbon dioxide to the atmosphere = 148,903 tons a day = 6,204 tons an hour = 1.72 tons a second

www.carbonvisuals.com/projects/new-yorks-carbon-emissions-in-real-time

dehammer wrote:
Imagine if they had cut that much out.

dehammer wrote:
Now imagine if they did that with 100 of the biggest cities of the world.

dehammer wrote:
This would pay for itself in a matter of a decade or so.

dehammer wrote:
After that it would be money for the cities its in.

dehammer wrote:
YET NO ONE wants to use this.

dehammer wrote:
Why are the alarmist not all over it?

dehammer wrote:
Why doesn't Al Gore push it?

dehammer wrote:
He has enough money he could likely put up over 100 of these. In a decade he would have a steady money maker.

dehammer wrote:
Yet instead he pushes for a carbon tax with a credit exchange that will make him a billionaire.

dehammer wrote:
Here is another example of their hypocrisy.

California has dozens of mountains at least 1000 foot tall within a few miles of the ocean. They are CONSTANTLY complaining about the lack of clean water for their swimming pools.

dehammer wrote:
They scream about the rising seas threatening to flood their cities.

dehammer wrote:
Its all other people's fault of course, they are all WOKE so it cant be their fault.

dehammer wrote:
Yet not once have they built a device that could give them clean drinking water AND cheap electricity for their cars and such.

dehammer wrote:
Colorado is the perfect place to build a group of devices that could power the entire country for the next century,

dehammer wrote:
YET they do not.

dehammer wrote:
Instead they complain about other people making so much co2.

dehammer wrote:
Florida is complaining about the land subsidence..

dehammer wrote:
oh, yea, the land isn't subsiding.

dehammer wrote:
BUT they could just as easy put a low profile pipe system where the sea falls 1000 feet or more just a few miles over the horizon.

dehammer wrote:
While this would not prevent the land from flooding,

dehammer wrote:
it would at least justify their complaining.

James___ wrote:

GasGuzzler wrote:
....and that's why it sat in the patent office for 40 years. It has not been shown to work and even if it did, too expensive/not practical for most people.

But hey, I will not be the one to tell someone they're not capable or they can't do it. Go get some funding and try this thing. If nothing else you'll learn more than you already know.

There might be a cheap way of generating power using a static/pressure head.
It'd help if you understood why atmospheric air pressure is 14.7 psi. Maybe you guys can figure it out?

James___ wrote:
FYI, inventions are worth money. With this one, all patent rights would go to charity.

James___ wrote:
If it does work then hydroelectric and nuclear power plants might be able to be dismantled.
After all, I am an environmentalist.

James___ wrote:
The problem as I see it is that we need CO2 from coal fired power plants. I do believe CO2 is supporting stratospheric ozone. And this is something that I need to consider.

James___ wrote:
Would a self renewing source of energy

James___ wrote:
cause CO2 generators to be dismantled instead of those things which are actually harming our planet?

James___ wrote:
I have seen where people go with their emotions when it comes to science.

James___ wrote:
Yet when it comes to their own family and friends no such emotions exist.

James___ wrote:
Of course, if you guys figure it out, then it's your invention and not mine. Then you guys can do with it whatever you want.

James___ wrote:
At the moment I am working on someone else's invention which should help me with some of the science I wish to pursue such as Natural Climate Variation.

James___ wrote:
And if things work out for me then you'll know who I am. I'll be the guy explaining the science behind NCV.

There is nothing magick about a 750 foot drop. Argument from randU fallacy.

James___ wrote:
It'd help if you understood why atmospheric air pressure is 14.7 psi.

problem as I see it is that we need CO2 from coal fired power plants.

Would a self renewing source of energy cause CO2 generators to be dismantled instead of those things which are actually harming our planet?

At the moment I am working on someone else's invention which should help me with some of the science I wish to pursue such as Natural Climate Variation. And if things work out for me then you'll know who I am. I'll be the guy explaining the science behind NCV.

dehammer wrote:

James___ wrote:
It'd help if you understood why atmospheric air pressure is 14.7 psi.

Its actually quite simple for anyone that understands science. At sea level, every square inch has a column of air above that weighs 14.7 pounds.

problem as I see it is that we need CO2 from coal fired power plants.

Plants need co2. At somewhere around 150 ppm, all plants would die of co2 starvation. If man had not been pumping co2 into the air, all life might have died in about 180k-240k years at the rate it was going before us.

Would a self renewing source of energy cause CO2 generators to be dismantled instead of those things which are actually harming our planet?

I personally would dismantle the nuclear power plants first, but the alarmist would certainly demand coal plants go.

At the moment I am working on someone else's invention which should help me with some of the science I wish to pursue such as Natural Climate Variation. And if things work out for me then you'll know who I am. I'll be the guy explaining the science behind NCV.

Good luck with that.

dehammer wrote:
Sorry but I can not see any connection with what you wrote to what you quoted.

You asked why the pressure of air at sea level was 14.7 psi. The reason for that pressure is the weight of the air above the square inch (psi means pounds per square inch). So the 100+ miles column air above that inch weighs 14.7 pounds.

dehammer wrote:
air pressure
Have they stopped teaching basic science in England?

dehammer wrote:

There is nothing magick about a 750 foot drop. Argument from randU fallacy.

Says the person with zero understanding of science. You use a single name as a shield to prevent learning real science.

But you are right. It isn't magical. Its science.

dehammer wrote:

James___ wrote:
It'd help if you understood why atmospheric air pressure is 14.7 psi.

Its actually quite simple for anyone that understands science. At sea level, every square inch has a column of air above that weighs 14.7 pounds.

dehammer wrote:

problem as I see it is that we need CO2 from coal fired power plants.

Plants need co2. At somewhere around 150 ppm, all plants would die of co2 starvation. If man had not been pumping co2 into the air, all life might have died in about 180k-240k years at the rate it was going before us.

dehammer wrote:

Would a self renewing source of energy cause CO2 generators to be dismantled instead of those things which are actually harming our planet?

I personally would dismantle the nuclear power plants first, but the alarmist would certainly demand coal plants go.

dehammer wrote:

At the moment I am working on someone else's invention which should help me with some of the science I wish to pursue such as Natural Climate Variation. And if things work out for me then you'll know who I am. I'll be the guy explaining the science behind NCV.

Good luck with that.

James___ wrote:

dehammer wrote:

James___ wrote:
It'd help if you understood why atmospheric air pressure is 14.7 psi.

Its actually quite simple for anyone that understands science. At sea level, every square inch has a column of air above that weighs 14.7 pounds.

problem as I see it is that we need CO2 from coal fired power plants.

Plants need co2. At somewhere around 150 ppm, all plants would die of co2 starvation. If man had not been pumping co2 into the air, all life might have died in about 180k-240k years at the rate it was going before us.

Would a self renewing source of energy cause CO2 generators to be dismantled instead of those things which are actually harming our planet?

I personally would dismantle the nuclear power plants first, but the alarmist would certainly demand coal plants go.

At the moment I am working on someone else's invention which should help me with some of the science I wish to pursue such as Natural Climate Variation. And if things work out for me then you'll know who I am. I'll be the guy explaining the science behind NCV.

Good luck with that.

Question; is working the saxophone https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A0wGO3c2T8 the same as working from Saxony? Could another man's invention be a phone? If so is a Saxon invention a "saxophone"? Note the quotation marks.
With atmospheric air pressure, a column of water that is 9.8 metres weighs 1.03 kg's. In American terms that is 14.7 pounds. That's American pounds. They're not the same as a British pound.
To translate, water in English terms is 0.6 ounces per cubic inch equals 14.7 pounds at a column of 392 inches squared. This might be at what Americans call 39º F. At 0º the elevation of the column drops.
It's sad when you Americans don't understand what your science is based on.

dehammer wrote:
Sorry but I can not see any connection with what you wrote to what you quoted.

You asked why the pressure of air at sea level was 14.7 psi. The reason for that pressure is the weight of the air above the square inch (psi means pounds per square inch). So the 100+ miles column air above that inch weighs 14.7 pounds.

James___ wrote:

dehammer wrote:
Sorry but I can not see any connection with what you wrote to what you quoted.

You asked why the pressure of air at sea level was 14.7 psi. The reason for that pressure is the weight of the air above the square inch (psi means pounds per square inch). So the 100+ miles column air above that inch weighs 14.7 pounds.

This is sad.

Americans can't do the simple math. Had to delete the rest of my post. I don't want to offend American women. dehammer, water is about 1,000 times denser than air. This means that a column of air weighing 14.7 lbs. should be 1,000 times the height of a column of water. Don't you Americans even understand basic maths and science? This means that a column of air would be 33,200 feet in elevation. What is that in your miles?

dehammer wrote:
air pressure
Have they stopped teaching basic science in England?

James___ wrote:

dehammer wrote:
air pressure
Have they stopped teaching basic science in England?

Your link fails to give the mass of air in a volume.
consider a column of air 1 inch^2 in size extending from sea level to the top of the atmosphere.

the weight (=mass X gravity) of the column of air will be about 14.7 lbs.

Hence, the pressure at sea level is = force/area = 14.7 lbs/inch2

How tall is the column and what is the mass? I understand how an American could miss such miniscule details. I mean you guys like inches and what's that when compared to millimetres ?

Into the Night wrote:

dehammer wrote:
Here is another example of their hypocrisy.

California has dozens of mountains at least 1000 foot tall within a few miles of the ocean. They are CONSTANTLY complaining about the lack of clean water for their swimming pools.

No, they are not. They keep filling their swimming pools. They use chlorine and hydrovacuum systems to keep them clean, too.

dehammer wrote:
They scream about the rising seas threatening to flood their cities.

Wait...what? They are lacking water, but they are flooding???

dehammer wrote:
Its all other people's fault of course, they are all WOKE so it cant be their fault.

You aren't even making sense.

dehammer wrote:
Yet not once have they built a device that could give them clean drinking water AND cheap electricity for their cars and such.

Your machine will provide neither.

dehammer wrote:
Colorado is the perfect place to build a group of devices that could power the entire country for the next century,

Your machine cannot even power itself.

dehammer wrote:
YET they do not.

Guess why.

dehammer wrote:
Instead they complain about other people making so much co2.

Some do, some don't. They don't understand that CO2 is necessary for life on this planet, and that CO2 has NO capability to warm the Earth.

dehammer wrote:
Florida is complaining about the land subsidence..

No, they aren't. They aren't complaining about much of anything, other than the usual government corruption and traffic, like most people do. The occasional sinkhole causes problems here and there, they just deal with it.

dehammer wrote:
oh, yea, the land isn't subsiding.

Correct. Florida is actually rising very slowly. It used to be entirely underwater. Now it's underwater only part of the time.

dehammer wrote:
BUT they could just as easy put a low profile pipe system where the sea falls 1000 feet or more just a few miles over the horizon.

I already showed you how much tensile strength your plumbing would have to withstand. If you stick that underwater your plumbing joints will have to withstand 120 tons of tensile strength.

dehammer wrote:
While this would not prevent the land from flooding,

No, hurricanes would still happen. It would be a spectacular failure for your plumbing lines though. You should sell tickets for that one!

dehammer wrote:
it would at least justify their complaining.

They aren't complaining. More and more people are moving to Florida because they like it there. Others wander in and can't seem to find they way out again. See floridaman.com.

Into the Night wrote:

dehammer wrote:
air pressure
Have they stopped teaching basic science in England?

No, he just didn't learn any science or mathematics. He never learned logic or philosophy either. He really is quite illiterate.

Just as you are.

Best water I ever tasted, was from a mountain stream out in Oregon.

Probably get more done, if I ever learn to focus.

HarveyH55 wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

dehammer wrote:
Here is another example of their hypocrisy.

California has dozens of mountains at least 1000 foot tall within a few miles of the ocean. They are CONSTANTLY complaining about the lack of clean water for their swimming pools.

No, they are not. They keep filling their swimming pools. They use chlorine and hydrovacuum systems to keep them clean, too.

dehammer wrote:
They scream about the rising seas threatening to flood their cities.

Wait...what? They are lacking water, but they are flooding???

dehammer wrote:
Its all other people's fault of course, they are all WOKE so it cant be their fault.

You aren't even making sense.

dehammer wrote:
Yet not once have they built a device that could give them clean drinking water AND cheap electricity for their cars and such.

Your machine will provide neither.

dehammer wrote:
Colorado is the perfect place to build a group of devices that could power the entire country for the next century,

Your machine cannot even power itself.

dehammer wrote:
YET they do not.

Guess why.

dehammer wrote:
Instead they complain about other people making so much co2.

Some do, some don't. They don't understand that CO2 is necessary for life on this planet, and that CO2 has NO capability to warm the Earth.

dehammer wrote:
Florida is complaining about the land subsidence..

No, they aren't. They aren't complaining about much of anything, other than the usual government corruption and traffic, like most people do. The occasional sinkhole causes problems here and there, they just deal with it.

dehammer wrote:
oh, yea, the land isn't subsiding.

Correct. Florida is actually rising very slowly. It used to be entirely underwater. Now it's underwater only part of the time.

dehammer wrote:
BUT they could just as easy put a low profile pipe system where the sea falls 1000 feet or more just a few miles over the horizon.

I already showed you how much tensile strength your plumbing would have to withstand. If you stick that underwater your plumbing joints will have to withstand 120 tons of tensile strength.

dehammer wrote:
While this would not prevent the land from flooding,

No, hurricanes would still happen. It would be a spectacular failure for your plumbing lines though. You should sell tickets for that one!

dehammer wrote:
it would at least justify their complaining.

They aren't complaining. More and more people are moving to Florida because they like it there. Others wander in and can't seem to find they way out again. See floridaman.com.

A lot of Florida in that one...

Think a 1000 foot drop in Florida would be hard to find, maybe far north Florida. Heard rumors of some hills up there, and not just highway overpasses either. There are very few high rise buildings, but I tend to steer clear of the big cities, too confusing for me. Not sure which is more civilized anymore, the big city, or the wild, undeveloped land...

HarveyH55 wrote:
Don't know about NYC water, but can't imagine it being the best tasting water. Best water I ever tasted, was from a mountain stream out in Oregon. Could have been mostly that I was usually pretty thirsty by the time I got there, long walk, but one of the finer points.

HarveyH55 wrote:
Floridaman... Yeah, Florida is magnet of the mentally ill. Use to think that crazy stuff happens all over, and the Floridaman stories just seemed so common, because I live here. When they make national news regularly, it's a little embarrassing. Maybe, it's just that we get so many tourist from all over, and they take our local news with them. Have to admit, a lot of them are just funny as hell though. One of my favorites, was a Florida man stealing beer, when the cops showed up, he of course ran, but fell face first into the parking lot, tripped over his saggy pants that fell down. The caught it all on video too.

HarveyH55 wrote:
I've about given up try to see this invention in my mind, seems that it keeps changing, not well defined.

HarveyH55 wrote:
Of course, I have many other things going on in my head, and a short attention span. Probably get more done, if I ever learn to focus.

GasGuzzler wrote:

Best water I ever tasted, was from a mountain stream out in Oregon.

Best water I ever tasted was from a rocky mountain stream. However, it must have been parasite city as I paid dearly for the next 24 hrs!

GasGuzzler wrote:

Probably get more done, if I ever learn to focus.

You too?

Into the Night wrote:

GasGuzzler wrote:

Best water I ever tasted, was from a mountain stream out in Oregon.

Best water I ever tasted was from a rocky mountain stream. However, it must have been parasite city as I paid dearly for the next 24 hrs!

Yeah...that happens. You can use iodine, a careful dose of dilute Chlorox, or simply boil the water first, but that does change it's taste.

Nothing like that attractive, cold, splashing stream after a long hike though!

GasGuzzler wrote:

Probably get more done, if I ever learn to focus.

You too?

It IS kinda hard to focus when you are paying the parasites their due.

James___ wrote: Your link fails to give the mass of air in a volume.
consider a column of air 1 inch^2 in size extending from sea level to the top of the atmosphere.

HarveyH55 wrote:I've about given up try to see this invention in my mind, seems that it keeps changing, not well defined.

Power = (x feet) x (500 cubic feet per second) x (0.80 effiency) / 11.8 = y kilowatts

dehammer wrote:

James___ wrote: Your link fails to give the mass of air in a volume.
consider a column of air 1 inch^2 in size extending from sea level to the top of the atmosphere.

The main purpose of that link was the picture. You tried to give the distance as if the pressure was the same all the way to the top of the atmosphere. IF you noticed there are a lot of blue dots at the bottom but as it goes higher and higher, they get fewer. As there is less weight above, the pressure decreases and the air density going down as pressure does. So while you assume that it would only be a few miles because of the height if the pressure was equal, it doesn't work that way.