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The USA electricity system - Hourly billing.?



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The USA electricity system - Hourly billing.?13-01-2024 21:22
Jakob
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(218)
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When you use electricity in the USA do you pay the same price per kWh 24/7 or how do you handle the accounts.?



Β­
13-01-2024 23:23
James_
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(2037)
Jakob wrote:
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When you use electricity in the USA do you pay the same price per kWh 24/7 or how do you handle the accounts.?



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It varies. In the state of Texas energy is not regulated. This allows for extreme price hikes during extreme weather. An example is when Texas had its Big Freeze
https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/news/great-texas-freeze-february-2021.
At least one utility said it would not bill its customers but instead would file for bankruptcy https://www.cbsnews.com/news/griddy-energy-texas-files-bankruptcy/. They did not want their customers to suffer outrageous bills.
Jerry Jones who had a $1.5 Billion stadium built with a lot of public financing said it was like hitting the lottery https://ftw.usatoday.com/2021/02/jerry-jones-getting-richer-while-people-in-texas-freeze. Many Americans support corporate welfare like that.
Where I live, both my electricity and natural gas are regulated and affordable.
As a result my natural gas is on a budget plan where I pay the same amount each month. A cold snap which is just now starting? My gas bill will not change. At the end of the year I might owe some money or find out I have credit because demand was less than expected.
14-01-2024 01:23
Jakob
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I guess I have to refraze the question a bit.

If the company that sells you the electricity shall be able to change the price from hour to hour they will have to be able to read how much you use in each specific hour.
Can they do that.?

They finally can in Denmark now after we all got new electricity meters.
It is important to promote free market forces and avoid too much planned economy.



Β­
14-01-2024 01:37
James_
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(2037)
Jakob wrote:
Β­


I guess I have to refraze the question a bit.

If the company that sells you the electricity shall be able to change the price from hour to hour they will have to be able to read how much you use in each specific hour.
Can they do that.?

They finally can in Denmark now after we all got new electricity meters.
It is important to promote free market forces and avoid too much planned economy. This is about on demand energy. It is easier to generate more energy from a boiler online or gas turbine than it is using green energy. Kind of why I like perpetual motion machines, they can be green 24/7.



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If a perpetual motion machine works, that could be a source of green energy.
With charging by the hour as you said, how is that electricity generated? That's a part of it.
With using fossil fuels, at night they burn energy while generating little electricity.
With solar panels and wind turbines, they support fossil fuels while not replacing fossil fuels.
Edited on 14-01-2024 02:13
14-01-2024 10:15
Jakob
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James

You quote wrong and you don't answer my question.
It is a bad idea to write in a forum if you are drunk.


Β­
14-01-2024 16:46
James_
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(2037)
Jakob wrote:
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James

You quote wrong and you don't answer my question.
It is a bad idea to write in a forum if you are drunk.


Β­


I had already answered your question. How many times do you want it answered?
Texas does things its way while other places do things its way. The state I live in uses monthly billing. How another state does it I do not know.
And I am building Swan's aka Alan Bauldree's invention for him. He will receive all moneys and all credit. I will not be able to talk about his invention because it's his invention and he taught me how to build it. And German's approved him making me slave labor so I would know what Norwegians in occupied Norway felt like.
And as Americans have told me, as an American citizen I cannot have a life in the U.S. unless I let them exploit me and I never have anything. And everything I have learned I have to give a white supremacist credit for it. I learned so I could get away from him. No one was willing to help me so that is how people who are not "real" Americans teach people. It will allow me to flee the U.S. because even my family said I had to be a servant because I learned to talk in Norway (my Father was from there).
Alan Bauldree's science which only he can talk about because he "taught" me what he knows. I don't need it because it can't let me have a life but can only prove Alan Bauldree is a prophet.
https://climate-cycling.com/cold-fusion

And Jakob, I will be very glad when I leave the U.S. and then Alan Bauldree can enjoy his right to his free speech by talking about science that he teaches. And if he doesn't know what he teaches then it's science's problem because I will be saying he taught me science and he deserves the credit and not me. Then what will science do with it? They'll have to leave my name out of it while they promote Alan Bauldree as a great teacher.
Attached image:

14-01-2024 21:47
Into the NightProfile pictureβ˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…
(21547)
Jakob wrote:
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When you use electricity in the USA do you pay the same price per kWh 24/7 or how do you handle the accounts.?
Β­

A kWh is not the same as an hour. Unit error.
kWh is directly convertible to Joules. You are charged on the joules you use during that month.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
14-01-2024 21:47
Into the NightProfile pictureβ˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…
(21547)
Jakob wrote:
Β­


I guess I have to refraze the question a bit.

If the company that sells you the electricity shall be able to change the price from hour to hour they will have to be able to read how much you use in each specific hour.
Can they do that.?

They finally can in Denmark now after we all got new electricity meters.
It is important to promote free market forces and avoid too much planned economy.



Β­

Electricity is not charged hourly. It is charged by the watt.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
14-01-2024 21:50
Into the NightProfile pictureβ˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…
(21547)
James_ wrote:
Jakob wrote:
Β­


I guess I have to refraze the question a bit.

If the company that sells you the electricity shall be able to change the price from hour to hour they will have to be able to read how much you use in each specific hour.
Can they do that.?

They finally can in Denmark now after we all got new electricity meters.
It is important to promote free market forces and avoid too much planned economy. This is about on demand energy. It is easier to generate more energy from a boiler online or gas turbine than it is using green energy. Kind of why I like perpetual motion machines, they can be green 24/7.



Β­



If a perpetual motion machine works, that could be a source of green energy.
With charging by the hour as you said, how is that electricity generated? That's a part of it.
With using fossil fuels, at night they burn energy while generating little electricity.
With solar panels and wind turbines, they support fossil fuels while not replacing fossil fuels.

Perpetual motion machines are not possible, James. See the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics. Your bit of craftsmanship cannot create energy out of nothing.

Electricity is not charged by the hour.

Fossils aren't used as fuel. Fossils don't burn.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
14-01-2024 21:57
Into the NightProfile pictureβ˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…
(21547)
James_ wrote:
[quote]Jakob wrote:
Β­James

You quote wrong and you don't answer my question.
It is a bad idea to write in a forum if you are drunk.

I had already answered your question. How many times do you want it answered?
Texas does things its way while other places do things its way. The state I live in uses monthly billing. How another state does it I do not know.
...fictional stories deleted...

States do not charge for electricity. Electric companies do.
Most ever electric company I know charges monthly for how many joules you used that month, measured as kWh.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
Edited on 14-01-2024 21:58
15-01-2024 01:49
James_
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(2037)
Into the Night wrote:
James_ wrote:
[quote]Jakob wrote:
Β­James

You quote wrong and you don't answer my question.
It is a bad idea to write in a forum if you are drunk.

I had already answered your question. How many times do you want it answered?
Texas does things its way while other places do things its way. The state I live in uses monthly billing. How another state does it I do not know.
...fictional stories deleted...

States do not charge for electricity. Electric companies do.
Most ever electric company I know charges monthly for how many joules you used that month, measured as kWh.



I have Kentucky water and electricity.
15-01-2024 15:23
Jakob
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Into the Night


Most ever electric company I know charges monthly for how many joules you used that month, measured as kWh.


Thank you.

In Denmark we had the same primitive communist billing system but with the new electricity meters we now have the option for hourly billing.

I believe I heard about a place in Texas where the consumers are not supposed to use the electric water heater during prime-time.
I wonder how they control that with monthly billing.?

Maybe it is a job for the police sometimes to visit peoples houses to check, and if it is on, the owner has to be handcuffed and go to jail.?

In Denmark the hourly price just increases during that time.


By the way, I'm glad to see that after messing around a lot, you ended up agreeing with me about how the unit of energy can be measured at the elementary school level in physics, and in your own house. If it was accidental and you don't quite understand it yet, perhaps because your knowledge of physics comes from half-forgotten rote learning, I can try to explain it to you more thoroughly if you want me to.





James

Your machine and your aggression towards users who are not present has nothing to do in this subject.



Β­
15-01-2024 19:02
James_
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(2037)
Jakob wrote:
Β­


Into the Night


Most ever electric company I know charges monthly for how many joules you used that month, measured as kWh.


Thank you.

In Denmark we had the same primitive communist billing system but with the new electricity meters we now have the option for hourly billing.

I believe I heard about a place in Texas where the consumers are not supposed to use the electric water heater during prime-time.
I wonder how they control that with monthly billing.?

Maybe it is a job for the police sometimes to visit peoples houses to check, and if it is on, the owner has to be handcuffed and go to jail.?

In Denmark the hourly price just increases during that time.


By the way, I'm glad to see that after messing around a lot, you ended up agreeing with me about how the unit of energy can be measured at the elementary school level in physics, and in your own house. If it was accidental and you don't quite understand it yet, perhaps because your knowledge of physics comes from half-forgotten rote learning, I can try to explain it to you more thoroughly if you want me to.





James

Your machine and your aggression towards users who are not present has nothing to do in this subject.



Β­



You mean Alan who is here and has caused me problems/stalked me for 18 years?
I like the way you support white supremacy. And I think everyone knows that
1,000 j x 3,600 = 1 kWh. I'll be moving out of the U.S. because he will not let me pursue a life in the U.S. when I am a citizen and a disabled Veteran. I have to prove to him I deserve to live in HIS country. I think that defines white supremacy.
As for what a joule is; J = kgβ‹…m^2β‹…sβˆ’2 That's actually factored wrong. Swan told me. It's factored to agree with the newton meter and the acceleration of gravity. It should just be J = kg * m/s and yet 1m/s = 9.81 so Swan said it should be factored something like J - (kg * m/s)/9.81 or J = kg * (m/9.81)/s.
1 joule = 1 newton meter. Swan said there are 9.81 j and 9.81 newton meter when that force (9.81 newton meters * distance/time is lifted/moved 1m in 1second And my website with my experiment, your friend Alan told me I have to give him credit for it.
https://climate-cycling.com/cold-fusion
https://climate-cycling.com/

Am sorry that I am not as smart as you Jakob. Have you considered that with hourly billing that the U.S. has more energy available than Europe? And with Bessler's Wheel (Alan's/Swan's invention because he is a nice guy), that might help to support demand during peak energy usage.
Most green energy sources can't ramp up and meet demand. This is why wind turbines will be idled during non peak hours if their energy isn't need. And yet you just wanted to know hourly billing and what a joule is. No interest in problem solving or making things better?
When Swan has kept me from working with people so I can have surgery, I have suffered severe trauma as a result. The image is Swan's working making fun of a medical problem that I've suffered for 14 years when a surgeon put my intestines wrong. The image not making fun of me is the issue. Sorry if my wanting a life in this lifetime upsets you but I am clearly in the wrong place. I hope you enjoy Swan's company. And he can explain the science on his website.

p.s., I'll probably give everything to Swan who is here because math and science have only brought hatred into my life because of Swan. I am 100% disabled but that doesn't matter because Swan has a family and I don't.
And just an FYI, Swan says that 2 x 2 = 6 and 2 x 2 = -4 because
+/-n * +/-x + n = y. Swan said that when you graph it starting from the shift +n that it will graph in the positive and negative directions with the same slope. And [2] x 2 = 4 and [2] x -2 =-4 and will have the same +/- slope when graphed from the point of origin.
Swan is smart so you should enjoy learning from him or his company and maybe both.
Attached image:


Edited on 15-01-2024 19:31
15-01-2024 20:24
James_
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(2037)
Jakob, I have my own design for a wheel. If successful one unit could fit inside a 5 story building and provide energy for about 150,000 homes. With a 2 or 3 story basement (an example of depth in the ground), then only 2 or 3 stories above ground would be seen.
With Bessler, some links and if your familiar with Leibniz, Newton and his Royal Society found him guilty of plagiarizing Newton's work; https://amsi.org.au/ESA_Senior_Years/SeniorTopic3/3b/3b_4history_2.html

With Bessler; https://www.uu.nl/en/special-collections/collections/early-printed-books/scientific-works/das-triumphirende-perpetuum-mobile-orffyreanum-by-johann-bessler
This is in Old German; https://objects.library.uu.nl/reader/index.php?obj=1874-206158&lan=en&_ga=2.172428714.880806695.1594795323-938448423.1594186832#page//24/83/12/24831284496948047699702573152743842009.jpg/mode/1up

And the guy who wrote a paper about Bessler has helped to write these papers as well; https://arxiv.org/search/physics?searchtype=author&query=Jenkins,+A
His preface and where it says access paper are clickable links; https://arxiv.org/abs/1301.3097
Bessler was 1/2 German and 1/2 Polish while I am 1/2 Norwegian and 1/2 American. What "pure" English speaking people say about Bessler while promoting his work was a hoax;
The internal design of the machine was always closely guarded by its inventor. Plagued by paranoia and a nasty temper, and with no patent laws to protect him, Bessler never arranged payment terms for the wheel. A bitter man, he took his secret to the grave and drifted into obscurity.
https://besslerwheel.com/

I'll need to stay offline to enjoy my (Swan's) work.
15-01-2024 22:33
Jakob
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(218)
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And yet you just wanted to know hourly billing and what a joule is. No interest in problem solving or making things better?



One step at a time.

As soon as we all agree about that the USA billing system for electricity belongs in a communist country or an underdeveloped banana republic, then I expect you by all means want to change it in a hurry.

Am I right.?


Have we reached that point now, or is further explanation needed to understand the context.?




Β­Β­
16-01-2024 03:49
James_
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(2037)
Jakob wrote:
Β­



And yet you just wanted to know hourly billing and what a joule is. No interest in problem solving or making things better?



One step at a time.

As soon as we all agree about that the USA billing system for electricity belongs in a communist country or an underdeveloped banana republic, then I expect you by all means want to change it in a hurry.

Am I right.?


Have we reached that point now, or is further explanation needed to understand the context.?




Β­Β­



I'm hoping to move to Thailand by spring. My Father was from Norway and I earned Norwegian when living there as a child. Christopher Bergen was saying gratulerer med dagen or Happy Birthday! in English and his American father-in-law felt so frightened he killed him.
https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/04/dad-accidentally-shoots-son-in-law-dead-after-he-jumped-out-of-bush-to-surprise-him-10862450/

I hear quite often that since I'm not dead that I don't have the right to complain about the way I'm being treated.
Edited on 16-01-2024 04:13
16-01-2024 13:27
Jakob
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(218)
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James

There are unanswered posts waiting for you here:
https://www.climate-debate.com/forum/perpetual-motion-d18-e3706-s40.php#post_101364

That is a subject you have started yourself, and for my sake you can do with it what you want.
I am sorry about your loss but please stop pulling this subject off track.




Β­
16-01-2024 14:02
James_
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(2037)
Jakob wrote:
Β­



And yet you just wanted to know hourly billing and what a joule is. No interest in problem solving or making things better?



One step at a time.

As soon as we all agree about that the USA billing system for electricity belongs in a communist country or an underdeveloped banana republic, then I expect you by all means want to change it in a hurry.

Am I right.?


Have we reached that point now, or is further explanation needed to understand the context.?




Β­Β­



Why doesn't Denmark just generate more green energy that is affordable? It's as I've said, I should stay out of forums. You want to control me using your opinion about hourly billing while you criticize how energy is billed in the U.S. when the cost for electricity is the same during peak hours as it is for none peak hours.
It seems that you are contradicting yourself to make it seem like you are being reasonable. And yet I don't know who you are. You're a meaningless name in a forum. You could be anyone including Alan Bauldree. Bye
Edited on 16-01-2024 14:25
16-01-2024 15:23
James_
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(2037)
James_ wrote:
Jakob wrote:
Β­



And yet you just wanted to know hourly billing and what a joule is. No interest in problem solving or making things better?



One step at a time.

As soon as we all agree about that the USA billing system for electricity belongs in a communist country or an underdeveloped banana republic, then I expect you by all means want to change it in a hurry.

Am I right.?


Have we reached that point now, or is further explanation needed to understand the context.?




Β­Β­



Why doesn't Denmark just generate more green energy that is affordable? It's as I've said, I should stay out of forums. You want to control me using your opinion about hourly billing while you criticize how energy is billed in the U.S. when the cost for electricity is the same during peak hours as it is for none peak hours.
It seems that you are contradicting yourself to make it seem like you are being reasonable. And yet I don't know who you are. You're a meaningless name in a forum. You could be anyone including Alan Bauldree. Bye


What was it one of my math teachers told me Alan? Do not help D students because they do not know why they are wrong. If you want to know why you are wrong, take the time to learn. It's worth it and for you Alan, Pink Floyd wrote a song about you; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IpYOF4Hi6Q

p.s., You'll probably end up in a psychiatric hospital. If you're mentally ill as you
say and your stated goal is to ruin my life, that will qualify you to be a guest at a health resort near you.
Edited on 16-01-2024 16:07
16-01-2024 22:11
Jakob
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(218)
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Jakob wrote:
Β­
As soon as we all agree about that the USA billing system for electricity belongs in a communist country or an underdeveloped banana republic, then I expect you by all means want to change it in a hurry.

Am I right.?


Have we reached that point now, or is further explanation needed to understand the context.?

Β­Β­



So girls and guys, what do you say.?





Β­
17-01-2024 04:12
GasGuzzler
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(2932)
Jakob wrote:
Β­



And yet you just wanted to know hourly billing and what a joule is. No interest in problem solving or making things better?



One step at a time.

As soon as we all agree about that the USA billing system for electricity belongs in a communist country or an underdeveloped banana republic, then I expect you by all means want to change it in a hurry.

Am I right.?


Have we reached that point now, or is further explanation needed to understand the context.?


The billing system in the US versus Denmark is very similar. You pay a bit more during peak hours in late afternoon and evening than you do in the other ~18 hours of the day. It is a bit different in that you have some choice of provider. What I find deceiving is the "renewable source" companies are also the lower cost per kw/h. I wonder how much they are subsidized by the hydrocarbon companies.

The glaring difference is the cost. Your rates are insanely high for a couple reasons. First, Denmark has invested heavily in wind and solar. The return on investment for the power it produces is pathetic. The consumer pays for it.

Secondly, The taxes on electric usage are insane. I believe it's well over 50% of your electric usage payment goes to fund welfare programs.

So if you would, please articulate for me the reason why I should want anything close the shit show Denmark has made of electricity. Denmark is among the highest cost per kilowatt hour IN THE ENTIRE WORLD. No thanks.


Radiation will not penetrate a perfect insulator, thus as I said space is not a perfect insulator.- Swan
17-01-2024 10:20
Jakob
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(218)
Β­


I am not agitating for the US to copy the Danish electricity system in full. Keep me safe please. lol

This chapter is only about intelligent electricity meters that the electricity companies can automatically read on an hourly basis.

This will ensure that the electricity consumers who are reckless and do not want to save electricity during prime time will pay the real higher price for it.
Conversely, consumers who save electricity during prime time will be rewarded with a lower price.
If you do not bill on hourly basis, then the financial incentive to buy the electricity disappears when it is cheap to produce, and the reasonable consumers end up paying for electricity to the unreasonable ones, and in general electricity becomes more expensive for everyone. That is the unfortunate thing about a communist or banana republican power system, and that is what I want agreement to eradicate in the United States.
It's infrastructure that costs investment, like when you build roads and train connections, but it has to be done if you want to develop civilization with a well-functioning market, and it pays off in the long run.

If the US has already done it with the electricity meters, or if we agree that it must be done quickly, then I have reached my goal with this topic.



Β­
17-01-2024 17:49
GasGuzzler
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(2932)
Jakob wrote:

If the US has already done it with the electricity meters, or if we agree that it must be done quickly, then I have reached my goal with this topic.
Β­


The US has already done this for decades. You are missing the big picture.

Ask yourself why the price must go up during peak usage hours. It is because supply cannot meet demand.

Now ask yourself why isn't there enough supply. We have everything needed to build the generating stations, except for one tiny little problem. Gullible fear mongering liberal religious freaks from the Church of Global Warming continue to stand in the way. You have to know that elderly people die when they don't have air conditioning. Because of the shortages of electricity, there are brown outs and blackouts every summer. It's particularly bad in California, which has been run by Democrats for Decades.

Now you have to answer one more question. Why do you hate people?


Radiation will not penetrate a perfect insulator, thus as I said space is not a perfect insulator.- Swan
17-01-2024 18:41
Jakob
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(218)
Β­



GasGuzzler wrote:
Jakob wrote:

If the US has already done it with the electricity meters, or if we agree that it must be done quickly, then I have reached my goal with this topic.
Β­


The US has already done this for decades. You are missing the big picture.

Ask yourself why the price must go up during peak usage hours. It is because supply cannot meet demand.

Now ask yourself why isn't there enough supply. We have everything needed to build the generating stations, except for one tiny little problem. Gullible fear mongering liberal religious freaks from the Church of Global Warming continue to stand in the way. You have to know that elderly people die when they don't have air conditioning. Because of the shortages of electricity, there are brown outs and blackouts every summer. It's particularly bad in California, which has been run by Democrats for Decades.

Now you have to answer one more question. Why do you hate people?



I don't.
Do you think I do because you are an ignorant Banana Republican.?

It is silly of you to claim the supply cannot meet demand.
If it couldn't your light would go out.
Funny how easy it is to see with electricity.

The price often goes up in prime time because the power plant has to put on more coal to meet the demand during that time. But they can't do that very quickly. It takes time to increase performance and turn up for the turbines. And the same when they have to turn them down again. Therefor a lot of electricity can be pure waste because the demand is missing during the night and at other times beside prime time.
So therefore if you can make people move the consumption to other times there will be less waste and in the big picture electricity will be cheaper.

When you write you all have had intelligent electricity meters in the US for decades I don't know if you are right. It is a contradiction to the info I got from James and Into the night.
However if we just all agree it has to be like that today I am satisfied.




Β­
17-01-2024 19:14
Jakob
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(218)
Β­


Here the consumers can see the raw hourly electricity prices in Denmark:
https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/Market-data1/Dayahead/Area-Prices/DK/Hourly/?view=table

DK1 is West-Denmark.

You can do the same for Norway, Sweden, Germany and so on.


Can you show me similar pages for the states in America.?



Β­Β­
17-01-2024 20:36
Into the NightProfile pictureβ˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…
(21547)
Jakob wrote:
Β­
Into the Night


Most ever electric company I know charges monthly for how many joules you used that month, measured as kWh.


Thank you.

In Denmark we had the same primitive communist billing system but with the new electricity meters we now have the option for hourly billing.

Communism isn't a billing system.
Jakob wrote:
I believe I heard about a place in Texas where the consumers are not supposed to use the electric water heater during prime-time.
I wonder how they control that with monthly billing.?

Maybe it is a job for the police sometimes to visit peoples houses to check, and if it is on, the owner has to be handcuffed and go to jail.?

In Denmark the hourly price just increases during that time.

Hallucinating doesn't help you.
Jakob wrote:

By the way, I'm glad to see that after messing around a lot, you ended up agreeing with me about how the unit of energy can be measured at the elementary school level in physics, and in your own house. If it was accidental and you don't quite understand it yet, perhaps because your knowledge of physics comes from half-forgotten rote learning, I can try to explain it to you more thoroughly if you want me to.


Β­

You deny physics. You have already denied and discarded the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics. Don't try to tell me you can educate ANYONE about physics!


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
17-01-2024 20:37
Into the NightProfile pictureβ˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…
(21547)
Jakob wrote:
Β­
And yet you just wanted to know hourly billing and what a joule is. No interest in problem solving or making things better?



One step at a time.

As soon as we all agree about that the USA billing system for electricity belongs in a communist country or an underdeveloped banana republic, then I expect you by all means want to change it in a hurry.

Am I right.?


Have we reached that point now, or is further explanation needed to understand the context.?
Β­Β­

Communism is not a country nor a billing system.
Bananas are not a republic.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
17-01-2024 20:39
Into the NightProfile pictureβ˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…
(21547)
Jakob wrote:
Β­


I am not agitating for the US to copy the Danish electricity system in full. Keep me safe please. lol

This chapter is only about intelligent electricity meters that the electricity companies can automatically read on an hourly basis.

This will ensure that the electricity consumers who are reckless and do not want to save electricity during prime time will pay the real higher price for it.
Conversely, consumers who save electricity during prime time will be rewarded with a lower price.
If you do not bill on hourly basis, then the financial incentive to buy the electricity disappears when it is cheap to produce, and the reasonable consumers end up paying for electricity to the unreasonable ones, and in general electricity becomes more expensive for everyone. That is the unfortunate thing about a communist or banana republican power system, and that is what I want agreement to eradicate in the United States.
It's infrastructure that costs investment, like when you build roads and train connections, but it has to be done if you want to develop civilization with a well-functioning market, and it pays off in the long run.

If the US has already done it with the electricity meters, or if we agree that it must be done quickly, then I have reached my goal with this topic.



Β­

Pivot fallacy. Denmark rates are MUCH higher than anywhere in the U.S.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
17-01-2024 20:45
Into the NightProfile pictureβ˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…
(21547)
Jakob wrote:
Β­
GasGuzzler wrote:
Jakob wrote:

If the US has already done it with the electricity meters, or if we agree that it must be done quickly, then I have reached my goal with this topic.
Β­


The US has already done this for decades. You are missing the big picture.

Ask yourself why the price must go up during peak usage hours. It is because supply cannot meet demand.

Now ask yourself why isn't there enough supply. We have everything needed to build the generating stations, except for one tiny little problem. Gullible fear mongering liberal religious freaks from the Church of Global Warming continue to stand in the way. You have to know that elderly people die when they don't have air conditioning. Because of the shortages of electricity, there are brown outs and blackouts every summer. It's particularly bad in California, which has been run by Democrats for Decades.

Now you have to answer one more question. Why do you hate people?

I don't.

Yes you do. Examples are right here in this post.
Jakob wrote:
Β­Do you think I do because you are an ignorant Banana Republican.?

Hateful speech. Bananas are not republics nor Republicans.
Jakob wrote:
Β­It is silly of you to claim the supply cannot meet demand.
If it couldn't your light would go out.

And it does go out. Rolling blackouts are common in California.
Jakob wrote:
Β­Funny how easy it is to see with electricity.

Not funny when the power goes out due to insufficient generating capacity.
Jakob wrote:
Β­The price often goes up in prime time because the power plant has to put on more coal to meet the demand during that time. But they can't do that very quickly. It takes time to increase performance and turn up for the turbines. And the same when they have to turn them down again. Therefor a lot of electricity can be pure waste because the demand is missing during the night and at other times beside prime time.

Apparently you've never heard of governor and synchronization circuitry. Coal is a stable source of power. That's what the grid operator wants and needs. Neither solar nor wind are stable sources of power.
Jakob wrote:
Β­So therefore if you can make people move the consumption to other times there will be less waste and in the big picture electricity will be cheaper.

Electric rates in Denmark are very high. It is NOT cheaper.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
17-01-2024 22:52
Jakob
β˜…β˜…β˜†β˜†β˜†
(218)
Β­


Into the Night wrote:
Jakob wrote:
Β­It is silly of you to claim the supply cannot meet demand.
If it couldn't your light would go out.


And it does go out. Rolling blackouts are common in California.


The issue was why the price is higher in prime time.
I hope you understood my explanation.

If you have daily blackouts in prime time so much more do you need intelligent electricity meters.

Β­Can you agree with that.?


Β­
17-01-2024 23:00
GasGuzzler
β˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…
(2932)
Jakob wrote:
Β­


Into the Night wrote:
Jakob wrote:
Β­It is silly of you to claim the supply cannot meet demand.
If it couldn't your light would go out.


And it does go out. Rolling blackouts are common in California.


The issue was why the price is higher in prime time.
I hope you understood my explanation.

If you have daily blackouts in prime time so much more do you need intelligent electricity meters.

Β­Can you agree with that.?


The issue is not the meters. The issue is idiots like you standing in the way of additional electricity production. CO2 is a life essential compound and has no capability to warm the Earth. Stop being such a gullible tool.


Radiation will not penetrate a perfect insulator, thus as I said space is not a perfect insulator.- Swan
17-01-2024 23:44
Jakob
β˜…β˜…β˜†β˜†β˜†
(218)
Β­


GasGuzzler wrote:

The issue is not the meters.



No obviously not for you since you have had intelligent electricity meters for decades like you wrote.

So why don't you just show me the page where I can see the hourly prices you have to pay today.?

The price in Denmark changes. Actually that is the point in hourly billing. Sometimes we can even earn money using electricity, because the price is negative.



Β­
17-01-2024 23:50
GasGuzzler
β˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…
(2932)
Jakob wrote:
Β­


GasGuzzler wrote:

The issue is not the meters.



No obviously not for you since you have had intelligent electricity meters for decades like you wrote.

So why don't you just show me the page where I can see the hourly prices you have to pay today.?

The price in Denmark changes. Actually that is the point in hourly billing. Sometimes we can even earn money using electricity, because the price is negative.



Β­


You just don't want to talk about lack of electricity production. I wouldn't either if I were you. This is my REC prices. Dirt cheap compared to communist Denmark.

, the on-peak energy is billed at a rate of $0.16/kilowatt-hour (KWH); the first 750 KWHs of the off-peak energy is billed at $0.08/KWH and any off-peak usage over 750 KWH is billed at $0.0649/kWh


Radiation will not penetrate a perfect insulator, thus as I said space is not a perfect insulator.- Swan
18-01-2024 08:52
Into the NightProfile pictureβ˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…
(21547)
Jakob wrote:
Β­


Into the Night wrote:
Jakob wrote:
Β­It is silly of you to claim the supply cannot meet demand.
If it couldn't your light would go out.


And it does go out. Rolling blackouts are common in California.


The issue was why the price is higher in prime time.
I hope you understood my explanation.

If you have daily blackouts in prime time so much more do you need intelligent electricity meters.

Β­Can you agree with that.?


Β­

Meters do not create energy.

What is needed is more generating capacity.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
18-01-2024 08:54
Into the NightProfile pictureβ˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…
(21547)
Jakob wrote:
Β­


GasGuzzler wrote:

The issue is not the meters.



No obviously not for you since you have had intelligent electricity meters for decades like you wrote.

So why don't you just show me the page where I can see the hourly prices you have to pay today.?

The price in Denmark changes. Actually that is the point in hourly billing. Sometimes we can even earn money using electricity, because the price is negative.
Β­

The cost of generating electricity is never negative.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
18-01-2024 11:52
Jakob
β˜…β˜…β˜†β˜†β˜†
(218)
Β­



GasGuzzler wrote:
You just don't want to talk about lack of electricity production. I wouldn't either if I were you. This is my REC prices. Dirt cheap compared to communist Denmark.

, the on-peak energy is billed at a rate of $0.16/kilowatt-hour (KWH); the first 750 KWHs of the off-peak energy is billed at $0.08/KWH and any off-peak usage over 750 KWH is billed at $0.0649/kWh



There will be days when those prices are not right so it still looks like a half concrete communist billing system to me.
How do they know how much electricity you use during prime time.?
The electricity meter or the company has to be pretty stupid if they can't provide you with the page I asked for.
Is it just a camera on an old meter.?


I can see your price in prime time is actually higher than it normally is in Denmark.
But you can just buy some more power plants for coal if you want it to go up even further the next 30 years, and you can send your fellow citizens deeper and deeper into the coal mines to find the last expensive peace of fossil fuel.
There is no way that I can stand in your way.
I just feel so sorry for America and the next generation if the infrastructure for electricity is going to be maintained or rebuilt by under educated Banana Republicans who think they can make America great again by preventing development into a much better future.


Into the Night wrote:

The cost of generating electricity is never negative.



The price can be, and in Denmark it sometimes is.
Nuclear plants and plants for coal are not very flexible, so if you buy more of those turbines to satisfy more reckless consumers in prime time you will also see the price beside prime time go down further, and sometimes they have to pay just to get rid of the energy to keep the system in balance and prevent the turbines from melting down.
A modern windmill can normally be stopped and started a lot faster, so it is a lot more flexible.



Β­
19-01-2024 00:05
Into the NightProfile pictureβ˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…
(21547)
Jakob wrote:
Β­There will be days when those prices are not right so it still looks like a half concrete communist billing system to me.

Communism is not a billing system nor concrete.
Jakob wrote:
Β­How do they know how much electricity you use during prime time.?
The electricity meter or the company has to be pretty stupid if they can't provide you with the page I asked for.
Is it just a camera on an old meter.?

Define 'prime time'. What do you consider 'prime time'?
Jakob wrote:
Β­
I can see your price in prime time is actually higher than it normally is in Denmark.

Void argument fallacy.
Jakob wrote:
Β­But you can just buy some more power plants for coal if you want it to go up even further the next 30 years,

Coal is cheap.
Jakob wrote:
Β­and you can send your fellow citizens deeper and deeper into the coal mines to find the last expensive peace of fossil fuel.

Coal is not a fossil. Fossils aren't used as fuel. Coal, oil, and natural gas are used as fuels.
Most power plants in the United States are natural gas, a renewable fuel.
Jakob wrote:
Β­There is no way that I can stand in your way.

But you sure want to, don't ya?
Jakob wrote:
Β­I just feel so sorry for America

Your avarice is showing.
Jakob wrote:
Β­and the next generation if the infrastructure for electricity is going to be maintained or rebuilt by under educated Banana Republicans who think they can make America great again by preventing development into a much better future.

Buzzword fallacies.

Power plants are built and maintained by various private corporations. Grid operators simply buy the cheapest stable power sources and wholesale it to power companies. Power companies maintain their own distribution lines and sell power to homes and businesses.

All of this equipment is continually updated and maintained, Luddite.

Jakob wrote:
Β­[quote]Into the Night wrote:

The cost of generating electricity is never negative.



The price can be, and in Denmark it sometimes is.
The cost of generating electricity is never negative.
Jakob wrote:
Β­Nuclear plants and plants for coal are not very flexible,

They are completely flexible. Again, you have no concept of power regulators and synchronization circuitry. What grid operators want is cheap, stable power sources, such as coal, hydro, natural gas, or nuclear power. Neither wind nor solar are stable power sources nor cheap.
Jakob wrote:
Β­so if you buy more of those turbines to satisfy more reckless consumers in prime time you will also see the price beside prime time go down further, and sometimes they have to pay just to get rid of the energy to keep the system in balance and prevent the turbines from melting down.

You do not have to pay to get rid of any energy.
Jakob wrote:
Β­A modern windmill can normally be stopped and started a lot faster, so it is a lot more flexible.

WRONG!!!

Windmills are the 2nd most expensive method of generating electricity, watt for watt. They can only produce power in a narrow range of wind speed. Too fast or too slow they must feather the blades. They cannot operate in icing conditions. They produce piddle power, and consume large tracts of land to generate the little power they do.

Here in Washington, there are a LOT of these windmills. A single coal plant can generate more power than the entire State of windmills combined.

Power here is generated by coal, nuclear, natural gas, and hydroelectric. The windmills contribute very little. Solar around here is a joke.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
Edited on 19-01-2024 00:07
19-01-2024 00:47
Jakob
β˜…β˜…β˜†β˜†β˜†
(218)
Β­


Into the Night wrote:
Jakob wrote:
Β­There is no way that I can stand in your way.

But you sure want to, don't ya?


No, but USA is Denmark's closest allied, so it is on my mind that you make the right choices for a good and sustainable future.



Β­
19-01-2024 03:26
IBdaMannProfile pictureβ˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…β˜…
(14350)
Jakob wrote:No, but USA is Denmark's closest allied, so it is on my mind that you make the right choices for a good and sustainable future.Β­

Then you should support drilling for petroleum and natural gas, earth's best renewable energy sources.
24-01-2024 02:06
Jakob
β˜…β˜…β˜†β˜†β˜†
(218)
Β­


Jakob wrote:
Β­
Here the consumers can see the raw hourly electricity prices in Denmark:
https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/Market-data1/Dayahead/Area-Prices/DK/Hourly/?view=table

DK1 is West-Denmark.
Β­Β­


Tonight the price is negative.


I love windmills and the open free market for electricity with hourly billing system.



Β­
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