The USA electricity system - Hourly billing.?

Jakob wrote:
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Jakob wrote:
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Here the consumers can see the raw hourly electricity prices in Denmark:
https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/Market-data1/Dayahead/Area-Prices/DK/Hourly/?view=table

DK1 is West-Denmark.
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Tonight the price is negative.

I love windmills and the open free market for electricity with hourly billing system.



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Jakob wrote:
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Jakob wrote:
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Here the consumers can see the raw hourly electricity prices in Denmark:
https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/Market-data1/Dayahead/Area-Prices/DK/Hourly/?view=table

DK1 is West-Denmark.
­­

Tonight the price is negative.

I love windmills and the open free market for electricity with hourly billing system.



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Why do you think your electricity is free?

Hint: NOTHING is free. Who do you suppose is paying for it?

You may have free choice but your system in NOT free markets.

Yep, this definitely penalizes the working class. It's during their dinner time that electricity is most expensive. More affluent people do not eat dinner between 5 and 5 but will go out to eat.

Jakob wrote:
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GasGuzzler

Why do you think your electricity is free?

Hint: NOTHING is free. Who do you suppose is paying for it?

To make it simple for you, you can compare it to the greengrocer who has too many apples in stock at harvest time, and they rot for him at the same time that there is a large supply of fresh cheap apples on the market. Who will pay for the half rotten apples.?

You may have free choice but your system in NOT free markets.

Actually this far it is more the opposite.
The market is free so any electricity producing company can sell power on equal terms if it can compete[b][/b
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GasGuzzler wrote:

Jakob wrote:
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GasGuzzler

Why do you think your electricity is free?

Hint: NOTHING is free. Who do you suppose is paying for it?

To make it simple for you, you can compare it to the greengrocer who has too many apples in stock at harvest time, and they rot for him at the same time that there is a large supply of fresh cheap apples on the market. Who will pay for the half rotten apples.?

You may have free choice but your system in NOT free markets.

Actually this far it is more the opposite.
The market is free so any electricity producing company can sell power on equal terms if it can compete[b][/b
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Not so fast there, Sparky. You are not comparing rotten apples to rotten apples.

Wind energy is not competing on equal terms with natural gas and coal electric production.

Very rarely does Denmark produce 100% of electrical needs from wind, and those turbines are not cheap to purchase, install and maintain.

Wind energy must receive huge amounts of money that is taken by your government through taxation, which is theft, from the company's producing reliable and cheap electricity using natural gas or coal. Keyword is "subsidy".

You may get a " free " night now and then, but in the end you pay an assload for electricity... And your shorelines are ugly.

Public financial flows to fossil fuels in G20 countries reached a record USD 1.4 trillion in 2022

Jakob wrote:
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GasGuzzler

Valid documentation for production prices and an overview of today's current raw electricity hourly prices for the electricity market in Western Europe should give you something good to think about.
But it is probably unfortunately a waste of time in a world where people would rather create fiction than understand reality. Or spreading individual attitudes to a beautiful view than saving lives, spare nature and help the next generations.

The price of electricity in Denmark is admittedly higher than the raw prices that I have linked to.
A large part goes to the network that is expanded, just as you expand railways and roads when needed. It's called infrastructure, and any banana republic that wants to develop a civilization has to pay for it.

In addition, there is a large tax which has two purposes, on the one hand, to give the state money for things on which it deems it sensible to spend money. It can be schools, hospitals, pensioners and even tax relief. In addition, this tax aims to lower energy consumption by increasing the incentive to save, choose energy-saving products and build smaller and better insulated houses, etc.
All this is politics that might be wise but has nothing to do with the core of the free electricity market that I in this context am trying to focus on and make you understand.


However while we're at it, how do you avoid paying for this (enjoy the view):

https://www.energypolicytracker.org/G20-fossil-fuel-support/

Public financial flows to fossil fuels in G20 countries reached a record USD 1.4 trillion in 2022

James

Maybe in the event of a hurricane, but in general windmills won't be idled to save wear and tear on them, but sometimes to prevent them from having to pay too much to get rid of the energy.



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James_ wrote:
There's the cost of extending the grid and then how much of the power supply can rely on green energy?

Jakob wrote:
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James_ wrote:
There's the cost of extending the grid and then how much of the power supply can rely on green energy?

There is a limit to how flexible the consumers can be, so if we go all the way with windmills and solar panels it will in the end be up to the "Power To X" project.
That will store the renewable energy so it can be saved for later use, and it is supposed to ensure the price never will be negative, and windmills never has to be stopped again, and fossil fuel will only be needed for a beholder we put in a museum.


An open market is supposed to be transparent, so here you can see something about the actual mixture:
https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/power/chart.htm?l=de&c=DK&stacking=stacked_absolute_area

And the raw electricity prices again:
https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/Market-data1/Dayahead/Area-Prices/DK/Hourly/?view=table
(In my opinion normally too dull and stable these days. We need much more variety to train the small consumers to be flexible.)

And if you scroll down a bit on this page you can see something about grid import and export:
https://en.energinet.dk/

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Jakob wrote: There is a limit to how flexible the consumers can be,

Jakob wrote: ... so if we go all the way with windmills and solar panels it will in the end be up to the "Power To X" project.

Jakob wrote: That will store the renewable energy

Jakob wrote: ... so it can be saved for later use,

Jakob wrote: ... and fossil fuel will only be needed for a beholder we put in a museum.

Jakob wrote:


Tonight the price is negative.

I love windmills and the open free market for electricity with hourly billing system.
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GasGuzzler wrote:

Jakob wrote:


Tonight the price is negative.

I love windmills and the open free market for electricity with hourly billing system.
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Since you refuse to comment on this, I'm going to hit it one more time.

College sports is a perfect analogy. Let's look at men's basketball. A lot of people are willing to pay to see men play basketball. The level at which they perform is fantastic. It's a great value for the money paid.

Now I'm going to really step in the shit. Women's basketball does not enjoy the same attendance that men do. Without paying customers in high numbers, the cost to run the women's program is unsustainable without the revenue. However, women still play the game with comparable schedules to the men.

The women's basketball program is most often FUNDED by the men. This is EXACTLY how your wind and solar are funded. Natural gas and coal are funding the high cost of Denmark's poor investment and transition to underperforming wind and solar.

What is happening in Denmark is not free markets. I'm guessing you know this but you don't want anyone losing faith in your religion. Tell me I'm wrong.

James_ wrote:
I'll post in the other thread.

Jakob wrote:
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GasGuzzler

I don't expect you to trust me about the free electricity market with hourly billing.

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Jakob wrote:
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James_ wrote:
I'll post in the other thread.

Good, and then please remember to keep it there.


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Jakob wrote:
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James_ wrote:
I'll post in the other thread.

Good, and then please remember to keep it there.


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GasGuzzler wrote:
Say the going rate for candy bars is $2. You are stupid and you buy a candy bar from me on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday for $8 each day. On Friday I give you a "free" candy bar. If you think free candy bar Friday is a good deal, then by all means, let's do business. You like Snickers?

Public financial flows to fossil fuels in G20 countries reached a record USD 1.4 trillion in 2022

Spongy Iris wrote:
The hourly billing system is a way for people with enough time on their hands to try and game the system by using energy when nobody else is, and not using energy when everybody else is.

Spongy Iris wrote:

Jakob wrote:
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James_ wrote:
I'll post in the other thread.

Good, and then please remember to keep it there.

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Says the conversation Nazi.

Jakob wrote:


https://www.energypolicytracker.org/G20-fossil-fuel-support/
[quote]
Public financial flows to fossil fuels in G20 countries reached a record USD 1.4 trillion in 2022

You didn't know about this, did you.?



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Jakob wrote:
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Spongy Iris wrote:

Jakob wrote:
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James_ wrote:
I'll post in the other thread.

Good, and then please remember to keep it there.

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It's a hacka$$ to start a conversation

Says the conversation Nazi.

If you think it's Nazism to try to keep a bit of order on the topics in a forum, so that not all threads are about the same thing, then you don't know what really characterizes Nazism.


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Jakob wrote:
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Spongy Iris wrote:
The hourly billing system is a way for people with enough time on their hands to try and game the system by using energy when nobody else is, and not using energy when everybody else is.

Unless you can automate it in a way that almost everyone can afford.
I am actually working on such a project.

And otherwise, I don't think you need to feel sorry for the fact that the unemployed can save a penny that the sandwich maid can't because she works. It might give the unemployed person the means to buy an extra piece, so that the sandwich maiden can get more pay and better afford to pay for her expenses.



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Spongy Iris wrote:

Jakob wrote:
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Spongy Iris wrote:
The hourly billing system is a way for people with enough time on their hands to try and game the system by using energy when nobody else is, and not using energy when everybody else is.

Unless you can automate it in a way that almost everyone can afford.
I am actually working on such a project.

And otherwise, I don't think you need to feel sorry for the fact that the unemployed can save a penny that the sandwich maid can't because she works. It might give the unemployed person the means to buy an extra piece, so that the sandwich maiden can get more pay and better afford to pay for her expenses.



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I don't know. My heaviest energy use is when it's cold at night, when the heat comes on, and gasoline to drive.

If I was unemployed, I don't imagine I would be able to live for very long.

James_ wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:

Jakob wrote:
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Spongy Iris wrote:
The hourly billing system is a way for people with enough time on their hands to try and game the system by using energy when nobody else is, and not using energy when everybody else is.

Unless you can automate it in a way that almost everyone can afford.
I am actually working on such a project.

And otherwise, I don't think you need to feel sorry for the fact that the unemployed can save a penny that the sandwich maid can't because she works. It might give the unemployed person the means to buy an extra piece, so that the sandwich maiden can get more pay and better afford to pay for her expenses.



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I don't know. My heaviest energy use is when it's cold at night, when the heat comes on, and gasoline to drive.

If I was unemployed, I don't imagine I would be able to live for very long.

What was it Jubat who is not ab hammer who is not Alan Bauldree tell me?
As long as I'm alive and he's alive, he'll be coming for me. Ruining my life is his reason for living. It lets him know that as a Christian he is better than me because Jesus died on the cross for HIM.

Spongy Iris wrote:

James_ wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:

Jakob wrote:
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Spongy Iris wrote:
The hourly billing system is a way for people with enough time on their hands to try and game the system by using energy when nobody else is, and not using energy when everybody else is.

Unless you can automate it in a way that almost everyone can afford.
I am actually working on such a project.

And otherwise, I don't think you need to feel sorry for the fact that the unemployed can save a penny that the sandwich maid can't because she works. It might give the unemployed person the means to buy an extra piece, so that the sandwich maiden can get more pay and better afford to pay for her expenses.



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I don't know. My heaviest energy use is when it's cold at night, when the heat comes on, and gasoline to drive.

If I was unemployed, I don't imagine I would be able to live for very long.

What was it Jubat who is not ab hammer who is not Alan Bauldree tell me?
As long as I'm alive and he's alive, he'll be coming for me. Ruining my life is his reason for living. It lets him know that as a Christian he is better than me because Jesus died on the cross for HIM.

Well you can't bring up dying on a cross and not expect to trigger me into responding with this urban dictionary link.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sexual%20crucifixion

Maybe it's like Swan said, microwaves cook food from the outside not the inside.

James_ wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:

James_ wrote:

Spongy Iris wrote:

Jakob wrote:
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Spongy Iris wrote:
The hourly billing system is a way for people with enough time on their hands to try and game the system by using energy when nobody else is, and not using energy when everybody else is.

Unless you can automate it in a way that almost everyone can afford.
I am actually working on such a project.

And otherwise, I don't think you need to feel sorry for the fact that the unemployed can save a penny that the sandwich maid can't because she works. It might give the unemployed person the means to buy an extra piece, so that the sandwich maiden can get more pay and better afford to pay for her expenses.



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I don't know. My heaviest energy use is when it's cold at night, when the heat comes on, and gasoline to drive.

If I was unemployed, I don't imagine I would be able to live for very long.

What was it Jubat who is not ab hammer who is not Alan Bauldree tell me?
As long as I'm alive and he's alive, he'll be coming for me. Ruining my life is his reason for living. It lets him know that as a Christian he is better than me because Jesus died on the cross for HIM.

Well you can't bring up dying on a cross and not expect to trigger me into responding with this urban dictionary link.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sexual%20crucifixion

Maybe it's like Swan said, microwaves cook food from the outside not the inside.

I have something better than that. If I do anything with perpetual motion or science, you'll have to be there. And you will need to approve of everything. If
I can handle it for 18 years then the world can handle it as well.
And when you approve of something, you'll need to tell everyone what to do. It'll
be your show just as in any forum. And best of all, you'll be representing Jesus and why he died on the cross for you.
And if you don't agree then I won't do anything. Your Jesus said on Earth as it is in Heaven. In today's terms, online as it is offline. Then if you deserve credit for teaching me, you'll receive it. But if you can't discuss things then that will mean the internet supports predators.

GasGuzzler wrote:
I did know this sad bit of news. The world shut down for COVID, and governments, including ours, paid people to sit on their assets and produce nothing, while collecting help for their utility bills. Total bullshit.

That was a big part of the 1.4 trillion . It was not to prop up a business that would otherwise fail. Wind and solar, on the other hand, need to be propped up or they will fail. For what they produce, they are way too expensive.

...but this is all pretty stupid to waste time on when you still have not described in your own words how CO2 warms the earth. Are you capable of that?

The 2022 energy price crisis, brought about by Russia's invasion of Ukraine, has catapulted public financial support for fossil fuels to new levels. G20 governments were quick to cushion the effects of peaking fossil fuel prices and bolster energy supplies, providing a staggering USD 1.4 trillion in the form of subsidies, investments by state-owned enterprises (SOEs), and lending from public financial institutions (PFIs). While much of this was support for consumers, around one third (USD 440 billion) was driving investment in new fossil fuel production.

(USD 440 billion) was driving investment in new fossil fuel production.

Jakob wrote:And otherwise, I don't think you need to feel sorry for the fact that the unemployed can save a penny that the sandwich maid can't because she works.

Jakob wrote:
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GasGuzzler wrote:
I did know this sad bit of news. The world shut down for COVID, and governments, including ours, paid people to sit on their assets and produce nothing, while collecting help for their utility bills. Total bullshit.

That was a big part of the 1.4 trillion . It was not to prop up a business that would otherwise fail. Wind and solar, on the other hand, need to be propped up or they will fail. For what they produce, they are way too expensive.

...but this is all pretty stupid to waste time on when you still have not described in your own words how CO2 warms the earth. Are you capable of that?

Why do you think it was COVID when they write that it was Russia's invasion of Ukraine.?

Jakob wrote:
­Was it just too much to ask you to red the first two lines of the documentation.?

Jakob wrote:
­https://www.energypolicytracker.org/G20-fossil-fuel-support/

The 2022 energy price crisis,

The price of fuel was directly caused by Biden's executive order. Nothing else.

[b]Jakob wrote:
­brought about by Russia's invasion of Ukraine,

It took place BEFORE Russia invaded Ukraine. Denying history isn't going to work, dude.

Jakob wrote:
­has catapulted public financial support for fossil fuels[/b] to new levels.

Fossils aren't used as fuel. Fossils don't burn.

Jakob wrote:
­G20 governments were quick to cushion the effects of peaking fossil fuel prices

There are no fossil fuel prices. Fossils aren't used as fuel.

Jakob wrote:
­and bolster energy supplies,

Biden's executive orders did exactly the opposite.

Jakob wrote:
­providing a staggering USD 1.4 trillion in the form of subsidies,

There are no subsidies for fossils as fuel. There are no subsidies for oil or natural gas either.

Jakob wrote:
­investments by state-owned enterprises (SOEs), and lending from public financial institutions (PFIs).

Communism doesn't work, dude.

Jakob wrote:
­While much of this was support for consumers, around one third (USD 440 billion) was driving investment in new fossil fuel production.

There is NO money going for fossils as fuel. Fossils don't burn.

(USD 440 billion) was driving investment in new fossil fuel production.

You could have bought a lot of windmills for that amount of money.
And the price on wind is pretty stable.

Jakob wrote:
­I see you also forgot to think about this documentation:
https://www.climate-debate.com/forum/the-usa-electricity-system-hourly-billing--d9-e4787-s40.php#post_101554

Jakob wrote:
­I could tell you about CO2 but it is not the subject,

Jakob wrote:
­and I would like you to realize that changing the billing system and switching to renewable energy makes very good sense even without the CO2 problem.
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Jakob wrote:
­I guess I have to refraze the question a bit.

If the company that sells you the electricity shall be able to change the price from hour to hour they will have to be able to read how much you use in each specific hour.
Can they do that.?

They finally can in Denmark now after we all got new electricity meters.
It is important to promote free market forces and avoid too much planned economy.
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Jakob wrote:
­One step at a time.

As soon as we all agree about that the USA billing system for electricity belongs in a communist country or an underdeveloped banana republic, then I expect you by all means want to change it in a hurry.

Am I right.?

Jakob wrote:
­Have we reached that point now, or is further explanation needed to understand the context.?
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Jakob wrote:
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Jakob wrote:
­As soon as we all agree about that the USA billing system for electricity belongs in a communist country or an underdeveloped banana republic, then I expect you by all means want to change it in a hurry.

Am I right.?

Have we reached that point now, or is further explanation needed to understand the context.?

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So girls and guys, what do you say.?

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GasGuzzler wrote:

Jakob wrote:
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And yet you just wanted to know hourly billing and what a joule is. No interest in problem solving or making things better?

One step at a time.

As soon as we all agree about that the USA billing system for electricity belongs in a communist country or an underdeveloped banana republic, then I expect you by all means want to change it in a hurry.

Am I right.?

Have we reached that point now, or is further explanation needed to understand the context.?

The billing system in the US versus Denmark is very similar. You pay a bit more during peak hours in late afternoon and evening than you do in the other ~18 hours of the day. It is a bit different in that you have some choice of provider. What I find deceiving is the "renewable source" companies are also the lower cost per kw/h. I wonder how much they are subsidized by the hydrocarbon companies.

The glaring difference is the cost. Your rates are insanely high for a couple reasons. First, Denmark has invested heavily in wind and solar. The return on investment for the power it produces is pathetic. The consumer pays for it.

Secondly, The taxes on electric usage are insane. I believe it's well over 50% of your electric usage payment goes to fund welfare programs.

So if you would, please articulate for me the reason why I should want anything close the shit show Denmark has made of electricity. Denmark is among the highest cost per kilowatt hour IN THE ENTIRE WORLD. No thanks.

Jakob wrote:
­I am not agitating for the US to copy the Danish electricity system in full.

Jakob wrote:
­Keep me safe please. lol

Jakob wrote:
­This chapter is only about intelligent electricity meters that the electricity companies can automatically read on an hourly basis.

Jakob wrote:
­This will ensure that the electricity consumers who are reckless and do not want to save electricity during prime time will pay the real higher price for it.

Jakob wrote:
­Conversely, consumers who save electricity during prime time will be rewarded with a lower price.

Jakob wrote:
­If you do not bill on hourly basis, then the financial incentive to buy the electricity disappears when it is cheap to produce,

Jakob wrote:
­and the reasonable consumers end up paying for electricity to the unreasonable ones,

Jakob wrote:
­and in general electricity becomes more expensive for everyone.

Jakob wrote:
­That is the unfortunate thing about a communist or banana republican power system,

Jakob wrote:
­and that is what I want agreement to eradicate in the United States.

Jakob wrote:
­It's infrastructure that costs investment, like when you build roads and train connections, but it has to be done if you want to develop civilization with a well-functioning market, and it pays off in the long run.

Jakob wrote:
­If the US has already done it with the electricity meters,

Jakob wrote:
­or if we agree that it must be done quickly,

Jakob wrote:
­then I have reached my goal with this topic.

Jakob wrote:
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GasGuzzler wrote:

Jakob wrote:

If the US has already done it with the electricity meters, or if we agree that it must be done quickly, then I have reached my goal with this topic.
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The US has already done this for decades. You are missing the big picture.

Ask yourself why the price must go up during peak usage hours. It is because supply cannot meet demand.

Now ask yourself why isn't there enough supply. We have everything needed to build the generating stations, except for one tiny little problem. Gullible fear mongering liberal religious freaks from the Church of Global Warming continue to stand in the way. You have to know that elderly people die when they don't have air conditioning. Because of the shortages of electricity, there are brown outs and blackouts every summer. It's particularly bad in California, which has been run by Democrats for Decades.

Now you have to answer one more question. Why do you hate people?

I don't.

Jakob wrote:
­Do you think I do because you are an ignorant Banana Republican.?

Jakob wrote:
­It is silly of you to claim the supply cannot meet demand.

Jakob wrote:
­If it couldn't your light would go out.

Jakob wrote:
­Funny how easy it is to see with electricity.

Jakob wrote:
­The price often goes up in prime time

Jakob wrote:

The price of generating electricity is the same, watt for watt, regardless of the time of day or night.
­because the power plant has to put on more coal to meet the demand during that time.

Jakob wrote:
­But they can't do that very quickly.

Jakob wrote:
­It takes time to increase performance and turn up for the turbines.

Jakob wrote:
­And the same when they have to turn them down again.

Jakob wrote:
­Therefor a lot of electricity can be pure waste

Jakob wrote:
­because the demand is missing during the night

Jakob wrote:
­and at other times beside prime time.

Jakob wrote:
­So therefore if you can make people move the consumption to other times there will be less waste and in the big picture electricity will be cheaper.

Jakob wrote:
­When you write you all have had intelligent electricity meters in the US for decades I don't know if you are right. It is a contradiction to the info I got from James and Into the night.

Jakob wrote:
­However if we just all agree it has to be like that today I am satisfied.

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Jakob wrote:
­


Here the consumers can see the raw hourly electricity prices in Denmark:
https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/Market-data1/Dayahead/Area-Prices/DK/Hourly/?view=table

DK1 is West-Denmark.

You can do the same for Norway, Sweden, Germany and so on.


Can you show me similar pages for the states in America.?

Jakob wrote:
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Into the Night wrote:

Jakob wrote:
­It is silly of you to claim the supply cannot meet demand.
If it couldn't your light would go out.

And it does go out. Rolling blackouts are common in California.

The issue was why the price is higher in prime time.

Jakob wrote:
­I hope you understood my explanation.

Jakob wrote:
­If you have daily blackouts in prime time so much more do you need intelligent electricity meters.

Jakob wrote:
­­Can you agree with that.?
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GasGuzzler wrote:

Jakob wrote:
­

Into the Night wrote:

Jakob wrote:
­It is silly of you to claim the supply cannot meet demand.
If it couldn't your light would go out.

And it does go out. Rolling blackouts are common in California.

The issue was why the price is higher in prime time.
I hope you understood my explanation.

If you have daily blackouts in prime time so much more do you need intelligent electricity meters.

­Can you agree with that.?

The issue is not the meters. The issue is idiots like you standing in the way of additional electricity production. CO2 is a life essential compound and has no capability to warm the Earth. Stop being such a gullible tool.