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gravity and temperature



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13-11-2021 17:46
HarveyH55Profile picture★★★★★
(3804)
Perpetual motion science has lured many, with the prospect of immortal fame and fortune for centuries. There have been thousands of men, who devoted their lives in there pursuit. None have ever claimed the ultimate price for their dedication to the art, with a reproducible model. Many turn to fraud, since science is expensive, and often disappointing. Not to mention the goal was fame and riches. They could get both, until their secret is discovered. Most perpetual motion/free energy devices of the past century, have been scams from conception, and illusion to rob the rubes. Earlier attempts, were more honest, until they learned otherwise. Wasn't all a complete waste of time though, many things were learned. A few improvements in efficiency, and better tools and materials, useful for other machines.

I've always looked at perpetual motion/free energy machines as magic. Sort of an intellectual challenge to figure out how the illusion was pulled off. How the inventor managed to slight-of-hand, add energy to the device, to pull off the appearance of running off energy it created.
13-11-2021 18:16
James___
★★★★★
(5342)
Into the Night wrote:

Perpetual motion is not possible.



I think everybody knows that and Thank You Captain Obvious.

p.s., the parrot killer parroted both Wikipedia and Google. OMG!!!
Edited on 13-11-2021 19:06
13-11-2021 19:07
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(807)
Into the Night wrote:

Perpetual motion is not possible.


The Earth, Sun, Moon, Stars, Planets, etc. are moving perpetually.


13-11-2021 19:23
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(807)
Windmills get energy from gravity, because gravity causes wind. Uneven heating may offer some explanation for wind, but not all.


13-11-2021 19:37
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(10383)
Spongy Iris wrote:Windmills get energy from gravity,

Let's not invent imaginary physics. Windmills get no energy from gravity. Gravity has no energy to give. Gravity is a force, i.e. it accelerates mass. Gravity is not energy.

Spongy Iris wrote:...because gravity causes wind.

Gravity does not cause wind.

Have you ever been outdoors on a day without any wind? Was there nonetheless gravity?

Correct. Gravity does not cause wind.

The next time you look at the sun, remember that it is the sole source of wind. Nothing else is the cause of wind. The work required to generate wind is performed exclusively by the sun.

Let me know if you have any other questions. Don't be afraid to come to me with the hard stuff.

.





Uneven heating may offer some explanation for wind, but not all.[/quote]


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
13-11-2021 19:42
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(807)
HarveyH55 wrote:
Perpetual motion science has lured many, with the prospect of immortal fame and fortune for centuries. There have been thousands of men, who devoted their lives in there pursuit. None have ever claimed the ultimate price for their dedication to the art, with a reproducible model. Many turn to fraud, since science is expensive, and often disappointing. Not to mention the goal was fame and riches. They could get both, until their secret is discovered. Most perpetual motion/free energy devices of the past century, have been scams from conception, and illusion to rob the rubes. Earlier attempts, were more honest, until they learned otherwise. Wasn't all a complete waste of time though, many things were learned. A few improvements in efficiency, and better tools and materials, useful for other machines.

I've always looked at perpetual motion/free energy machines as magic. Sort of an intellectual challenge to figure out how the illusion was pulled off. How the inventor managed to slight-of-hand, add energy to the device, to pull off the appearance of running off energy it created.


I have shared this video below here before. Seems like a pretty simple example of a small wheel built to spin perpetually using the repelling force from pushing 2 like magnets towards each other

https://youtu.be/zqG-TL0WnjE

The trickiest part looks like how they had to constantly move the magnets closer and further apart, in an ebb and flow, to keep the wheel spinning.

So looks with every rotation a stick smacks a big magnetic bar further away to reset the spin cycle. I imagine if you built one of these on a large scale, the stick smacking the magnetic bar would be quite noisy.


13-11-2021 19:51
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(807)
IBdaMann wrote:


Have you ever been outdoors on a day without any wind? Was there nonetheless gravity?


There is never zero wind outdoors. Particles are never absolutely still.


13-11-2021 19:53
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(10383)
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:Perpetual motion is not possible.
The Earth, Sun, Moon, Stars, Planets, etc. are moving perpetually.

If you wish to play word games then I will clarify what Into the Night means by "Perpetual Motion" (and he can correct me if I misrepresent his position).

"Perpetual Motion" is the more convenient term for the concept of entropy not increasing while work is being performed. The earth, sun, moon, stars, planets, etc... are not performing any work via their motion, ... therefore the concept of entropy does not apply ... therefore none are maintaining or decreasing entropy.

Ergo, while moving perpetually, none are in "perpetual motion" per the meaning of the term.

Don't be afraid to come to me with the hard stuff.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
13-11-2021 19:57
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(10383)
Spongy Iris wrote:There is never zero wind outdoors. Particles are never absolutely still.

So it is your position that gravity therefore causes particle movement, not thermal energy?

This is going to be fun ... for me.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
13-11-2021 19:59
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(10383)
James___ wrote:
Into the Night wrote:Perpetual motion is not possible.
I think everybody knows that and Thank You Captain Obvious.

Spongy Iris does not know this. He would probably appreciate you explaining this to him.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
13-11-2021 20:28
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(807)
IBdaMann wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:There is never zero wind outdoors. Particles are never absolutely still.


So it is your position that gravity therefore causes particle movement?

.


Yes


13-11-2021 20:34
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(807)
IBdaMann wrote:

"Perpetual Motion" is the more convenient term for the concept of entropy not increasing while work is being performed.
.


Thanks for clarifying.

I was talking about a wheel that could spin using magnetic force. Free energy could probably be used as a marketing slogan for a wheel propelled like this, because you don't have to perpetually fill it up with gas.


13-11-2021 21:07
James___
★★★★★
(5342)
IBdaMann wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:Perpetual motion is not possible.
The Earth, Sun, Moon, Stars, Planets, etc. are moving perpetually.

If you wish to play word games then I will clarify what Into the Night means by "Perpetual Motion" (and he can correct me if I misrepresent his position).

"Perpetual Motion" is the more convenient term for the concept of entropy not increasing while work is being performed. The earth, sun, moon, stars, planets, etc... are not performing any work via their motion, ... therefore the concept of entropy does not apply ... therefore none are maintaining or decreasing entropy.

Ergo, while moving perpetually, none are in "perpetual motion" per the meaning of the term.

Don't be afraid to come to me with the hard stuff.

.



Can you explain why the Sun is gaining mass? With everything that it is radiating, it is not suffering entropy.
13-11-2021 21:12
James___
★★★★★
(5342)
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:

Perpetual motion is not possible.


The Earth, Sun, Moon, Stars, Planets, etc. are moving perpetually.



The general usage of perpetual motion implies that something will move on its own accord. And example is a steel bar next to a bar magnet will rotate on its own accord.
Basically NASA has built a perpetual motion rotor assembly. What people actually mean when they use that term is to conserve gravity as mechanical movement. Conservation of energy is not perpetual because gravity is an outside source of energy. And now we're back to the 1st law of thermodynamics.
13-11-2021 21:16
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(10383)
HarveyH55 wrote:Perpetual motion science has lured many, with the prospect of immortal fame and fortune for centuries.

Harvey, yes, fame and fortune have lured many over the centuries, but any scam will work for scam artists, whether it be Safemoon or perpetual motion or essential oils or Global Warming or whatever.

Perpetual motion is pursued by all physics students, as homework assignments, research projects and all sorts of in-class thought experiments in order to teach thermodynamics and virtually all other topics as well. Some concepts just need to be thought through and the best way to approach many of them is to simply try think of a way to use the new principle to reduce entropy. Nothing drives home a lesson better than trying to figure a way around the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

So when a physicist claims to have created perpetual motion, you can bet that he knows that it is impossible and is simply lying in his pursuit of the aforementioned immortal fame and fortune.

HarveyH55 wrote:I've always looked at perpetual motion/free energy machines as magic. Sort of an intellectual challenge to figure out how the illusion was pulled off.

Harvey, you have just described Global Warming, Climate Change and Greenhouse Effect (and ATE as well). Every time the topic turns to one of those, the conversation becomes a "find the error" puzzle.

With Global Warming and Greenhouse Effect, the four-step process for pin-pointing the error is as follows:

1. Establish that an increase in temperature is being claimed.
2. Establish that the energy needed for #1 is created out of nothing by greenhouse gas, violating the first law of thermodynamics.
3. When the argument then pivots to greenhouse gas increasing earth's temperature through a corresponding decrease in earth's radiance, note that the argument now violates Stefan-Boltzmann.
4. When the argument then pivots to focusing on gibberbabble concerning infrared reradiation in the atmosphere and thermal forcings and other confusing non-science, etc ... loop back to #2 and repeat.


HarveyH55 wrote: How the inventor managed to slight-of-hand, add energy to the device, to pull off the appearance of running off energy it created.

Can we talk openly and honestly about Bessler's little hustle?

Bessler's sleight of hand was in controlling access to the room. His wheels could rotate for a long time without slowing down noticeably so Bessler invited audiences to witness him crank them up/get them started ... and they were amazed at the wheel seemingly continuing to run for an hour without slowing perceptibly. Then Bessler kicked everyone out and locked up the room. The wheel of course, eventually slowed and stopped. No one was there to observe it. Bessler then insisted that they not return for a couple of months. Before allowing the same observers back in several weeks later, he snuck back in to get the wheel spinning once again ... and then he snuck out ... and let the original observers watch him undo the locks on the room and voila! ... the wheel was apparently still spinning after months!

Bessler never allowed anyone to test the wheel independently, claiming that the engineering design would be stolen. Like any good magician, he didn't want the secret to be revealed.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
13-11-2021 21:19
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(10383)
James___ wrote:Can you explain why the Sun is gaining mass?

The sun is losing mass. With everything that it is radiating, you can use E=mc^2 to calculate the rate of loss.

Don't be afraid to come to me with the hard stuff.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
13-11-2021 21:25
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(10383)
James___ wrote:What people actually mean when they use that term is to conserve gravity as mechanical movement.

Gravity is not energy. Gravity is not conserved. Gravity is not kinetic energy.

James___ wrote: Conservation of energy is not perpetual /quote]
The 1st law of thermodynamics is perpetual. It always applies, everywhere. It is always in effect.

[quote]James___ wrote:because gravity is an outside source of energy.

Gravity is not a source of energy.

James___ wrote:And now we're back to the 1st law of thermodynamics.

... which is perpetual, it keeps the country clean.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
13-11-2021 21:39
James___
★★★★★
(5342)
IBdaMann wrote:
James___ wrote:Can you explain why the Sun is gaining mass?

The sun is losing mass. With everything that it is radiating, you can use E=mc^2 to calculate the rate of loss.

Don't be afraid to come to me with the hard stuff.


.



I guess that's why one day the Sun will be occupying all of the space inside of the Earth's orbit. Oops, I forgot, you and ITN don't take an interest in science because you (plural) have B(ull) S(hit) degrees in political science.
13-11-2021 21:40
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(10383)
Spongy Iris wrote:I was talking about a wheel that could spin using magnetic force.

Please explain how you imagine this being possible.

Motors use magnetic force to make wheels spin ... as long as electrical energy is supplied. I presume you specifically mean that no energy is supplied, yes?

It won't work.

Spongy Iris wrote: Free energy could probably be used as a marketing slogan for a wheel propelled like this, because you don't have to perpetually fill it up with gas.

It won't sell very well because it won't be spinning.


Spongy Iris, have you ever used a magnetic compass? Did you happen to notice that the needle, which is "powered" by magnetic force, does not rotate, it does not spin, it does not go-'round-and-'round. In fact, it remains pointed in the exact same direction unless moved by an outside force.

Would you like to hazard a guess as to why?


Don't be afraid to come to me with the hard stuff.

.











.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
13-11-2021 21:55
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(10383)
James___ wrote:I guess that's why one day the Sun will be occupying all of the space inside of the Earth's orbit.

James__, does the sun not already occupy all of the space inside of the earth's orbit?

What does the word "heliosphere" mean?

Where is the "outer edge" of the sun, if I might ask?

James___ wrote:Oops, I forgot, you and ITN don't take an interest in science because you (plural) have B(ull) S(hit) degrees in political science.

I don't have any degrees. I am an eight-year-old with no credentials.

Just chill with your favorite ice cold beverage and meditate to THIS RELAXING and SOOTHING deep thinking music.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
13-11-2021 22:11
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(16460)
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:

Perpetual motion is not possible.


The Earth, Sun, Moon, Stars, Planets, etc. are moving perpetually.

No, they aren't.

All of these come and go.

Our own Moon, for example, is gaining altitude. It's orbit is getting larger and slower. Eventually, it would reach a stable point and never move in the sky again.

That is, it WOULD if the Sun didn't run out of fuel first, causing it to expand and destroy the inner planets (including Earth).


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
13-11-2021 22:13
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(16460)
Spongy Iris wrote:
Windmills get energy from gravity, because gravity causes wind. Uneven heating may offer some explanation for wind, but not all.


Wind is not caused by gravity.

ALL of it is caused by uneven heating of the Earth.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
13-11-2021 22:16
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(16460)
Spongy Iris wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:


Have you ever been outdoors on a day without any wind? Was there nonetheless gravity?


There is never zero wind outdoors. Particles are never absolutely still.


Perhaps you can explain the meaning of 'calm' used by the National Weather Service in their reports then.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
13-11-2021 22:20
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(16460)
IBdaMann wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:Perpetual motion is not possible.
The Earth, Sun, Moon, Stars, Planets, etc. are moving perpetually.

If you wish to play word games then I will clarify what Into the Night means by "Perpetual Motion" (and he can correct me if I misrepresent his position).

"Perpetual Motion" is the more convenient term for the concept of entropy not increasing while work is being performed. The earth, sun, moon, stars, planets, etc... are not performing any work via their motion, ... therefore the concept of entropy does not apply ... therefore none are maintaining or decreasing entropy.

Ergo, while moving perpetually, none are in "perpetual motion" per the meaning of the term.

Don't be afraid to come to me with the hard stuff.

.

There are two types of perpetual motion machine. Machines of the 1st order and machines of the 2nd order. Each ignore the thermodynamic law corresponding to that order.

Perpetual motion machines of the 1st order are described quite well here by you. Machines of the 2nd order attempt to extract work by reducing entropy.

An example of this, as it pertains to this forum, is the magick ability of a gas to decrease entropy by heating the surface and cooling the upper atmosphere.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
13-11-2021 22:24
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(16460)
Spongy Iris wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:There is never zero wind outdoors. Particles are never absolutely still.


So it is your position that gravity therefore causes particle movement?

.


Yes


Gravity is not thermal energy.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
13-11-2021 22:25
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(16460)
Spongy Iris wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:

"Perpetual Motion" is the more convenient term for the concept of entropy not increasing while work is being performed.
.


Thanks for clarifying.

I was talking about a wheel that could spin using magnetic force. Free energy could probably be used as a marketing slogan for a wheel propelled like this, because you don't have to perpetually fill it up with gas.


You don't have to fill a vacuum up with gas either.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
13-11-2021 22:26
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(16460)
James___ wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:Perpetual motion is not possible.
The Earth, Sun, Moon, Stars, Planets, etc. are moving perpetually.

If you wish to play word games then I will clarify what Into the Night means by "Perpetual Motion" (and he can correct me if I misrepresent his position).

"Perpetual Motion" is the more convenient term for the concept of entropy not increasing while work is being performed. The earth, sun, moon, stars, planets, etc... are not performing any work via their motion, ... therefore the concept of entropy does not apply ... therefore none are maintaining or decreasing entropy.

Ergo, while moving perpetually, none are in "perpetual motion" per the meaning of the term.

Don't be afraid to come to me with the hard stuff.

.



Can you explain why the Sun is gaining mass? With everything that it is radiating, it is not suffering entropy.


The Sun is losing mass. Perhaps someone should explain fusion to you.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
Edited on 13-11-2021 22:27
13-11-2021 22:34
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(16460)
James___ wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:

Perpetual motion is not possible.


The Earth, Sun, Moon, Stars, Planets, etc. are moving perpetually.



The general usage of perpetual motion implies that something will move on its own accord. And example is a steel bar next to a bar magnet will rotate on its own accord.

Actually, it won't. The magnet does impart a force upon the steel bar though. That's electrostatic force. It is no different than the force an apple or the Moon has acting upon it due to gravity.

A force is not energy.
James___ wrote:
Basically NASA has built a perpetual motion rotor assembly.

Not possible.
James___ wrote:
What people actually mean when they use that term is to conserve gravity as mechanical movement.

Electrostatic force is not gravitational force. Neither is mechanical movement.
James___ wrote:
Conservation of energy is not perpetual because gravity is an outside source of energy.

Gravity is not energy. It is also not conserved.
James___ wrote:
And now we're back to the 1st law of thermodynamics.

Nah. You are back to not understanding basic physics.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
13-11-2021 22:38
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(16460)
James___ wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
James___ wrote:Can you explain why the Sun is gaining mass?

The sun is losing mass. With everything that it is radiating, you can use E=mc^2 to calculate the rate of loss.

Don't be afraid to come to me with the hard stuff.


.



I guess that's why one day the Sun will be occupying all of the space inside of the Earth's orbit. Oops, I forgot, you and ITN don't take an interest in science because you (plural) have B(ull) S(hit) degrees in political science.


There is no branch of science called 'political'. Science is a set of falsifiable theories. It is not a degree, license, certification, or any other form of sanctification.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
14-11-2021 01:39
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(10383)
IBdaMann wrote:That reminds me, I have one more on the way. It will be my favorite.

As promised, attached is the remaining set.

Notice that it has no numerical value listed ... because it is non-denominational!

.
Attached image:

14-11-2021 02:04
James___
★★★★★
(5342)
Into the Night wrote:
James___ wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
James___ wrote:Can you explain why the Sun is gaining mass?

The sun is losing mass. With everything that it is radiating, you can use E=mc^2 to calculate the rate of loss.

Don't be afraid to come to me with the hard stuff.


.



I guess that's why one day the Sun will be occupying all of the space inside of the Earth's orbit. Oops, I forgot, you and ITN don't take an interest in science because you (plural) have B(ull) S(hit) degrees in political science.


There is no branch of science called 'political'. Science is a set of falsifiable theories. It is not a degree, license, certification, or any other form of sanctification.



Denial is the first sign of guilt. It's okay ITN, thou art (singular where you are is plural) putting your (possessive, singular) B.S. degree to good use. It's nice to see someone making good with their education.
14-11-2021 06:27
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(807)
James___ wrote:

Can you explain why the Sun is gaining mass? With everything that it is radiating, it is not suffering entropy.


Maybe the Sun gains mass which it takes from the Earth.


14-11-2021 07:37
James___
★★★★★
(5342)
Spongy Iris wrote:
James___ wrote:

Can you explain why the Sun is gaining mass? With everything that it is radiating, it is not suffering entropy.


Maybe the Sun gains mass which it takes from the Earth.



A possible explanation is that it's because of whatever gives gravity energy.
14-11-2021 12:53
duncan61
★★★★☆
(1441)
I agree with ITN that the variations in the surface heating creates wind.We are in the peaceful spring time where the temperature variations are less than the rest of the year and it is calm.In summer the Easterlies howl as the Ocean is warmer than the inland areas so the warmer air rises and draws the cold air to the coast.I face due west at my local beach.around lunch time the wind will stop for a while then howl from the South or South west as the land has now heated and draws the cold air from the South.We call it the Fremantle doctor as it relieves the sweltering heat we used to get 20 years ago.The weather where I live is much milder than it was and this year we have had a long mild winter so we will probably have a cooler summer cos thats what happens in the randomness of weather
14-11-2021 15:05
HarveyH55Profile picture★★★★★
(3804)
James___ wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
James___ wrote:

Can you explain why the Sun is gaining mass? With everything that it is radiating, it is not suffering entropy.


Maybe the Sun gains mass which it takes from the Earth.



A possible explanation is that it's because of whatever gives gravity energy.


Gravity is a force, not energy. You can't change gravity to other forms if energy. The only thing that comes close, is a water wheel on a stream or river. The buckets fill with water at the top, gravity pulls them down, the water spills out at the bottom. The wheel rotates a shaft. The rotational energy is used to perform work. Doesn't work without a river or stream though. Never enough energy to pump the water back to the top, perpetual motion style. Never stopped people from trying though. Your isn't the only gravity wheel idea. Gravity is called a force, because we can't control or change it. But, that's another entertaining pseudo-science, also pursued like perpetual motion. Magnetism is another force, but we do have quite a bit of control over it, and it's used in a lot of stuff. But, magnets don't have energy either. There are many perpetual motion machines, and free-energy devices, that try to exploit 'magnetic-energy', that of course, always fail as well...
14-11-2021 15:27
HarveyH55Profile picture★★★★★
(3804)
duncan61 wrote:
I agree with ITN that the variations in the surface heating creates wind.We are in the peaceful spring time where the temperature variations are less than the rest of the year and it is calm.In summer the Easterlies howl as the Ocean is warmer than the inland areas so the warmer air rises and draws the cold air to the coast.I face due west at my local beach.around lunch time the wind will stop for a while then howl from the South or South west as the land has now heated and draws the cold air from the South.We call it the Fremantle doctor as it relieves the sweltering heat we used to get 20 years ago.The weather where I live is much milder than it was and this year we have had a long mild winter so we will probably have a cooler summer cos thats what happens in the randomness of weather


There are a lot things on the earth's surface that don't absorb heat evenly. Saltwater and fresh water warm/cool at different rates. Lot of dry land features are similar. We also have mountains, that cast some huge shadows. The sun is only shining on one half the planet, warming, while the dark side is cooling. Hot air rises, cooler air is sucked into the 'void', air moves... I also believe there are a few other things involved, nature has many subtle secrets, often dismissed as insignificant. Humans like to reduce everything to the simplest, easiest, so it can be controlled. It's a huge planet, with a lot of things going on, all at the same time. We can't really turn any of those things on and off at will, we simply try to ignore them, as we focus on the one thing we want most. We set up laboratory experiments, that attempt to isolate, or simulate, and believe the results must be the complete answer. Sort of why a jar full of CO2, under a heat lamp warms, so CO2 must be killing the planet...
14-11-2021 18:46
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(807)
IBdaMann wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:I was talking about a wheel that could spin using magnetic force.

Please explain how you imagine this being possible.

It won't work.



I shared below 4 minute clip earlier. Did you miss it?

https://youtu.be/H5xKS4lTzGY

Basically, it looks like the force used to spin the wheel is pushing like magnets towards each other so they repel.



Edited on 14-11-2021 18:47
14-11-2021 18:49
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(807)
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:There is never zero wind outdoors. Particles are never absolutely still.


So it is your position that gravity therefore causes particle movement?

.


Yes


Gravity is not thermal energy.


It is a force, no? A force can move particles.


14-11-2021 18:51
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(807)
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Into the Night wrote:

Perpetual motion is not possible.


The Earth, Sun, Moon, Stars, Planets, etc. are moving perpetually.

No, they aren't.

All of these come and go.

Our own Moon, for example, is gaining altitude. It's orbit is getting larger and slower. Eventually, it would reach a stable point and never move in the sky again.

That is, it WOULD if the Sun didn't run out of fuel first, causing it to expand and destroy the inner planets (including Earth).


Interesting theory. Please explain why any reasonable adult should believe you.


14-11-2021 19:06
Spongy Iris
★★★☆☆
(807)
Into the Night wrote:
Spongy Iris wrote:
Windmills get energy from gravity, because gravity causes wind. Uneven heating may offer some explanation for wind, but not all.


Wind is not caused by gravity.

ALL of it is caused by uneven heating of the Earth.


The wind blowing up (thermals), which offers paragliders "free flight," is probably the best example of uneven heating causing air particles to move from hot to cold.

But the prevailing wind pattern basically moves from west to east in most of the world, except the tropical latitudes, where it moves east to west.

There is not going to be much temperature variation moving eastward or westward, especially if it's over a long stretch of ocean or flat land.

That should cause you uncertainty as to whether ALL wind is caused by uneven heating.


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