Maximizing Carbon Sequestration in Terrestrial Agroecosystems

James_ wrote:

Swan wrote:

You fear the truth, this is the life that you chose, and you will live with it regardless of me.

First you want me to be Alan and now Lite Song, so you are a desperate trolling fool, you cannot fool me, so now you ban me.

The truth will remain

And Alan Bauldree told me he sodomizes little boys. Should I believe what he says?

Swan wrote:

James_ wrote:

Swan wrote:

You fear the truth, this is the life that you chose, and you will live with it regardless of me.

First you want me to be Alan and now Lite Song, so you are a desperate trolling fool, you cannot fool me, so now you ban me.

The truth will remain

And Alan Bauldree told me he sodomizes little boys. Should I believe what he says?

What you should do is speak to law enforcement, I would. Here is the FBI tip line number, so please do the right thing.

The FBI is engaged in a nationwide effort to build public awareness of hate crimes and encourage reporting to law enforcement.

If you believe you are a victim or a witness of a hate crime, we encourage you to report it to the FBI by calling 1-800-CALL-FBI or submit a tip at tips.fbi.gov.

Into the Night wrote:

Im a BM wrote:

James_ wrote:
a hypothesis

It is clear from previous posts that you are aware CH2O is formaldehyde.

However, a laymen's mistake might be to use CH2O for carbohydrates.

In this oversimplification, photosynthesis is CO2 + H2O = CH2O + O2

Nearly all carbohydrates have the general formula Cn(H2O)n

C6H12O6 = glucose, fructose, galactose, etc.

C12H24O12 = sucrose, lactose, etc.

But CH2O is formaldehyde, not carbohydrate.

The post says, "since it's known that CH2O can be generated.." (???)

Even more puzzling is how this could possibly relate to the Chapman Cycle.

Formaldehyde is a carbohydrate.
It has nothing to do with the Chapman cycle.

Im a BM wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

Im a BM wrote:

James_ wrote:
a hypothesis

It is clear from previous posts that you are aware CH2O is formaldehyde.

However, a laymen's mistake might be to use CH2O for carbohydrates.

In this oversimplification, photosynthesis is CO2 + H2O = CH2O + O2

Nearly all carbohydrates have the general formula Cn(H2O)n

C6H12O6 = glucose, fructose, galactose, etc.

C12H24O12 = sucrose, lactose, etc.

But CH2O is formaldehyde, not carbohydrate.

The post says, "since it's known that CH2O can be generated.." (???)

Even more puzzling is how this could possibly relate to the Chapman Cycle.

Formaldehyde is a carbohydrate.
It has nothing to do with the Chapman cycle.

With lignin, there was no way to say that at least it is hydrated carbon with the general formula Cm(H2O)n.

But formaldehyde, CH2O is not carbohydrate either.

It has only one carbon, which is double bonded to the only oxygen as a carbonyl group (-C=O).

Formaldehyde contains ZERO carbon atoms with hydroxyl groups (-C-O-H), where the carbon is single bonded to an oxygen of a hydroxyl group (-OH). A carbohydrate must have at least TWO such carbon atoms single bonded to hydroxyl groups, as well as a carbonyl carbon double bonded to an oxygen atom. With just one carbon atom, formaldehyde doesn't have enough of the right parts to be a carbohydrate.

Swan wrote:

James_ wrote:

Swan wrote:

You fear the truth, this is the life that you chose, and you will live with it regardless of me.

First you want me to be Alan and now Lite Song, so you are a desperate trolling fool, you cannot fool me, so now you ban me.

The truth will remain

And Alan Bauldree told me he sodomizes little boys. Should I believe what he says?

What you should do is speak to law enforcement, I would. Here is the FBI tip line number, so please do the right thing.

The FBI is engaged in a nationwide effort to build public awareness of hate crimes and encourage reporting to law enforcement.

If you believe you are a victim or a witness of a hate crime, we encourage you to report it to the FBI by calling 1-800-CALL-FBI or submit a tip at tips.fbi.gov.

Im a BM wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

Im a BM wrote:

James_ wrote:
a hypothesis

It is clear from previous posts that you are aware CH2O is formaldehyde.

However, a laymen's mistake might be to use CH2O for carbohydrates.

In this oversimplification, photosynthesis is CO2 + H2O = CH2O + O2

Nearly all carbohydrates have the general formula Cn(H2O)n

C6H12O6 = glucose, fructose, galactose, etc.

C12H24O12 = sucrose, lactose, etc.

But CH2O is formaldehyde, not carbohydrate.

The post says, "since it's known that CH2O can be generated.." (???)

Even more puzzling is how this could possibly relate to the Chapman Cycle.

Formaldehyde is a carbohydrate.
It has nothing to do with the Chapman cycle.

With lignin, there was no way to say that at least it is hydrated carbon with the general formula Cm(H2O)n.

But formaldehyde, CH2O is not carbohydrate either.

It has only one carbon, which is double bonded to the only oxygen as a carbonyl group (-C=O).

Formaldehyde contains ZERO carbon atoms with hydroxyl groups (-C-O-H), where the carbon is single bonded to an oxygen of a hydroxyl group (-OH). A carbohydrate must have at least TWO such carbon atoms single bonded to hydroxyl groups, as well as a carbonyl carbon double bonded to an oxygen atom. With just one carbon atom, formaldehyde doesn't have enough of the right parts to be a carbohydrate.

HarveyH55 wrote:

Swan wrote:

James_ wrote:

Swan wrote:

You fear the truth, this is the life that you chose, and you will live with it regardless of me.

First you want me to be Alan and now Lite Song, so you are a desperate trolling fool, you cannot fool me, so now you ban me.

The truth will remain

And Alan Bauldree told me he sodomizes little boys. Should I believe what he says?

What you should do is speak to law enforcement, I would. Here is the FBI tip line number, so please do the right thing.

The FBI is engaged in a nationwide effort to build public awareness of hate crimes and encourage reporting to law enforcement.

If you believe you are a victim or a witness of a hate crime, we encourage you to report it to the FBI by calling 1-800-CALL-FBI or submit a tip at tips.fbi.gov.

Wonder if the FBI could take care of you. Clearly you hate intelligent discussion, and anyone attempting to have one.

Im a BM wrote:
A couple of more papers came out that cite the research of yours truly.


M. Stanek et al. 2023. Effect of simulated litterfall and sapling growth of invasive Quercus rubra and native Q. robur on soil in a pot experiment. Forest Ecology and Management. Volume 551 pages (?-?)


and

L. Zhang et al. 2023. Tannin complexation with metal ions and its implication on human health, environment, and industry: An overview. International Journal of Biological Macromolecules. Volume 253, part 7 pages (?-?)



The first paper reminds me of some of the first forestry research ever published, a century and a half ago. The Germans were the pioneers in this field of science. Some of what the new paper describes the invasive oak species doing is in line with what the old German foresters called "soil degraders".

The second paper is from a journal I never heard of before. There are literally tens of thousands of different peer-reviewed scientific journals. Quality varies significantly.

What I like about this one is that the title says "Tannin complexation with metals..."

Tannins, also known as polyphenols, are phenol carboxylic acids capable of forming strong complexes with metals.

Someone who never studied chemistry might imagine that "metal complexing organic acid" is some kind of fake buzzword.

Metal complexation by organic acids is of major significance in biogeochemistry.

This will probably get covered up with troll manure in a matter of minutes.

To the viewer who might want to have a rational discussion about science...

HarveyH55 wrote:Everyone who took high school biology knows that formaldehyde is amphibian. We all endured the stench, while dissecting frogs.

sealover wrote:
Nutrient cycling dynamics of natural ecosystems can be mimicked in cropping systems to maximize carbon sequestration into soil organic matter, and minimize emissions of nitrous oxide. Tannin (aka polyphenol) chemical ecology provides insights into biogeochemical mechanisms that regulate carbon and nitrogen cycling.

The convergent evolution of tannin-rich plant communities has occurred on highly-infertile soils throughout the world. To acquire and conserve nitrogen, these plants allocate much of their organic carbon below ground to support symbiotic mycorrhizal fungi associated with their roots. Tannins in plant litter form recalcitrant complexes with protein, immobilizing this organic form of nitrogen and preventing mineralization. Mycorrhizal fungi produce enzymes that mobilize nitrogen from protein-tannin complexes, which is transferred directly to the root in organic nitrogen form. This short circuiting of the mineralization step in the nitrogen cycle prevents emission of nitrous oxide to the atmosphere, and prevents export of nitrate to groundwater or surface water. Allocation of photosynthate below ground to support mycorrhizal fungi also enhances sequestration of carbon into soil organic matter.

Tannins inhibit the oxidation of ammonium in soil to nitrate by nitrifying bacteria. This minimizes nitrous oxide emission as a by product of microbial nitrate reduction. Nitrogen release from tannin-rich litter is predominantly in the form of dissolved organic nitrogen rather than ammonium or nitrate. Dissolved organic nitrogen adsorbs to soil organic matter, minimizing leaching loss of nitrogen and retaining it in slow release form.

Tannins inhibit the decomposition of organic matter to substantially increase its mean residence in or above the soil. In the most extreme cases, equatorial rainforests form massive litter layers over acid white sand soils that are virtually devoid of nutrients or roots. One- or two-meters thick layers of litter in various stages of decomposition can accumulate above the mineral soil surface. This is despite warm, wet, well drained conditions that favor rapid decomposition. Exceptionally high tannin content in the vegetation of these forests enables them to create an enduring layer of organic matter above the soil surface, where virtually all the root growth and nutrient cycling occurs with high efficiency, and negligible losses.

Tannins themselves are the dominant substrate that transforms into soil humic acids. Humic acids enhance soil fertility in many ways, and their mean residence time in soil can be many centuries long. Tannins can comprise more than half the dry weight in foliage of tannin-rich species, and much of this represents sequestered carbon that will remain for a long time as stable soil organic matter.

We may not want to create thick litter layers above the topsoil in all our croplands. But polyphenol biogeochemistry can still be applied to increase carbon sequestration and decrease nitrous oxide emission. For example, tannin-rich organic matter can be combined with more rapidly decomposable crop residues or manure to slow decomposition and immobilize nitrogen into slowly mineralized organic form, as compost. Crop-mycorrhizal associations could be facilitated to sequester carbon and access recalcitrant soil nitrogen.

Into the Night wrote:

Im a BM wrote:
A couple of more papers came out that cite the research of yours truly.


M. Stanek et al. 2023. Effect of simulated litterfall and sapling growth of invasive Quercus rubra and native Q. robur on soil in a pot experiment. Forest Ecology and Management. Volume 551 pages (?-?)


and

L. Zhang et al. 2023. Tannin complexation with metal ions and its implication on human health, environment, and industry: An overview. International Journal of Biological Macromolecules. Volume 253, part 7 pages (?-?)



The first paper reminds me of some of the first forestry research ever published, a century and a half ago. The Germans were the pioneers in this field of science. Some of what the new paper describes the invasive oak species doing is in line with what the old German foresters called "soil degraders".

The second paper is from a journal I never heard of before. There are literally tens of thousands of different peer-reviewed scientific journals. Quality varies significantly.

What I like about this one is that the title says "Tannin complexation with metals..."

Tannins, also known as polyphenols, are phenol carboxylic acids capable of forming strong complexes with metals.

Someone who never studied chemistry might imagine that "metal complexing organic acid" is some kind of fake buzzword.

Metal complexation by organic acids is of major significance in biogeochemistry.

This will probably get covered up with troll manure in a matter of minutes.

To the viewer who might want to have a rational discussion about science...

Science is not a paper, book, journal, magazine, pamphlet, or website.
There is no such thing in science as 'biogeochemistry'.
'Metal complexation' is a buzzword.

You are not discussing science.

Swan wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

Im a BM wrote:
A couple of more papers came out that cite the research of yours truly.


M. Stanek et al. 2023. Effect of simulated litterfall and sapling growth of invasive Quercus rubra and native Q. robur on soil in a pot experiment. Forest Ecology and Management. Volume 551 pages (?-?)


and

L. Zhang et al. 2023. Tannin complexation with metal ions and its implication on human health, environment, and industry: An overview. International Journal of Biological Macromolecules. Volume 253, part 7 pages (?-?)



The first paper reminds me of some of the first forestry research ever published, a century and a half ago. The Germans were the pioneers in this field of science. Some of what the new paper describes the invasive oak species doing is in line with what the old German foresters called "soil degraders".

The second paper is from a journal I never heard of before. There are literally tens of thousands of different peer-reviewed scientific journals. Quality varies significantly.

What I like about this one is that the title says "Tannin complexation with metals..."

Tannins, also known as polyphenols, are phenol carboxylic acids capable of forming strong complexes with metals.

Someone who never studied chemistry might imagine that "metal complexing organic acid" is some kind of fake buzzword.

Metal complexation by organic acids is of major significance in biogeochemistry.

This will probably get covered up with troll manure in a matter of minutes.

To the viewer who might want to have a rational discussion about science...

Science is not a paper, book, journal, magazine, pamphlet, or website.
There is no such thing in science as 'biogeochemistry'.
'Metal complexation' is a buzzword.

You are not discussing science.

Well then little boy, how about you tell us for once what science is, instead of what it isn't for once.

Will wait with popcorn

James_ wrote:

Swan wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

Im a BM wrote:
A couple of more papers came out that cite the research of yours truly.


M. Stanek et al. 2023. Effect of simulated litterfall and sapling growth of invasive Quercus rubra and native Q. robur on soil in a pot experiment. Forest Ecology and Management. Volume 551 pages (?-?)


and

L. Zhang et al. 2023. Tannin complexation with metal ions and its implication on human health, environment, and industry: An overview. International Journal of Biological Macromolecules. Volume 253, part 7 pages (?-?)



The first paper reminds me of some of the first forestry research ever published, a century and a half ago. The Germans were the pioneers in this field of science. Some of what the new paper describes the invasive oak species doing is in line with what the old German foresters called "soil degraders".

The second paper is from a journal I never heard of before. There are literally tens of thousands of different peer-reviewed scientific journals. Quality varies significantly.

What I like about this one is that the title says "Tannin complexation with metals..."

Tannins, also known as polyphenols, are phenol carboxylic acids capable of forming strong complexes with metals.

Someone who never studied chemistry might imagine that "metal complexing organic acid" is some kind of fake buzzword.

Metal complexation by organic acids is of major significance in biogeochemistry.

This will probably get covered up with troll manure in a matter of minutes.

To the viewer who might want to have a rational discussion about science...

Science is not a paper, book, journal, magazine, pamphlet, or website.
There is no such thing in science as 'biogeochemistry'.
'Metal complexation' is a buzzword.

You are not discussing science.

Well then little boy, how about you tell us for once what science is, instead of what it isn't for once.

Will wait with popcorn

Gosh Alan, I thought science was the way you're attracted to me, you know, opposites attract. You said you loved me. Remember your messages on Facebook and Instagram.

Swan wrote:

Well then little boy, how about you tell us for once what science is, instead of what it isn't for once.

Will wait with popcorn

And can you please explain again how the bill of rights and the US constitution are two separate documents? That insight was glorious

James_ wrote:

Swan wrote:

Well then little boy, how about you tell us for once what science is, instead of what it isn't for once.

Will wait with popcorn

And can you please explain again how the bill of rights and the US constitution are two separate documents? That insight was glorious

Remember when you said that when I agree with you it means I've taken my meds because I understand that you are right? Please don't ask me to turn against you when I want to be for you. I'm here for you. ❤️
Ooop, I used the wrong emoji.

Unfortunately Alan I'm heterosexual and am not overweight while you are a homosexual and overweight as well. Yet because we are both guys we repel each other just as 2 north poles or 2 south poles on magnets repel each other.
I think it's funny that you said that you're going to stalk me until I become your lover. After all, you want me to suffer as you do. I don't need that in my life. Bye!

Swan wrote:

James_ wrote:

Swan wrote:

Well then little boy, how about you tell us for once what science is, instead of what it isn't for once.

Will wait with popcorn

And can you please explain again how the bill of rights and the US constitution are two separate documents? That insight was glorious

Remember when you said that when I agree with you it means I've taken my meds because I understand that you are right? Please don't ask me to turn against you when I want to be for you. I'm here for you. ❤️
Ooop, I used the wrong emoji.

Unfortunately Alan I'm heterosexual and am not overweight while you are a homosexual and overweight as well. Yet because we are both guys we repel each other just as 2 north poles or 2 south poles on magnets repel each other.
I think it's funny that you said that you're going to stalk me until I become your lover. After all, you want me to suffer as you do. I don't need that in my life. Bye!

LOL you are merely trying to manipulate the conversation, and failing as badly as the Hindenburg did in landing at Lakehurst.

Well then little boy, how about you tell us for once what science is, instead of what it isn't for once.

Will wait with popcorn

sealover wrote:

Swan wrote:

James_ wrote:

Swan wrote:

Well then little boy, how about you tell us for once what science is, instead of what it isn't for once.

Will wait with popcorn

And can you please explain again how the bill of rights and the US constitution are two separate documents? That insight was glorious

Remember when you said that when I agree with you it means I've taken my meds because I understand that you are right? Please don't ask me to turn against you when I want to be for you. I'm here for you. ❤️
Ooop, I used the wrong emoji.

Unfortunately Alan I'm heterosexual and am not overweight while you are a homosexual and overweight as well. Yet because we are both guys we repel each other just as 2 north poles or 2 south poles on magnets repel each other.
I think it's funny that you said that you're going to stalk me until I become your lover. After all, you want me to suffer as you do. I don't need that in my life. Bye!

LOL you are merely trying to manipulate the conversation, and failing as badly as the Hindenburg did in landing at Lakehurst.

Well then little boy, how about you tell us for once what science is, instead of what it isn't for once.

Will wait with popcorn

The thread topic regarding carbon sequestration is real.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of troll manure to dig through in order to find it.

For example, this troll exchange doesn't pretend to have the slightest interest in a valid discussion of anything scientific or even vaguely related to climate.

Trolls can't control their sociopathic impulses.

And there are the half dozen others who just can't wait to gang rape the next tree hugger who naively expresses concern about climate change.

New members will continue to join and a few might even make a good faith effort to participate in the discussion.

As the search engine continues to operate in the false belief that this site gets well over a thousand visits a day (see "guests online" as it suddenly jumps to 160), people will continue to be directed here as if it were a valid discussion site.

One of them might get past enough of the troll manure to have questions about biogeochemistry related to carbon sequestration in agroecosystems.

Questions that would get an answer from a published biogeochemistry PhD whose research gets cited in a lot of the papers about carbon sequestration in agroecosystems.

James_ wrote:

Swan wrote:

Retard alert, the paper does not cite litter, which can be literally anything from rubber tires to arsenic, the paper quotes PLANT LITTER

The litter he mentioned discusses phenolics. I checked and this includes tannins.
https://www.englishwoodlandstimber.co.uk/talk-tannin-oak-chestnut-cladding-beam/

It's the chemical bonds it forms. The litter you mention in leaves also affect the trees that grew those leaves. A high tannin level in woodworking can be good. When you stain wood you like having a nice even stain, right?
And as the article on woodworking mentions, tannins (phenol) reacts to water. And when leaves "litter", their concentration of phenols is higher. This suggests that oxidation will occur. It might be like iron, water and air, iron oxide occurs. That's an electrolysis process. Different molecules create an electrical charge that affects the iron and other molecules it is interacting with.

If you look at soft woods, they have fewer phenols and need a pre-treatment that mimics phenols. Stains it seems adhere to phenols in the wood. It acts as a binding agent. Hardwoods have more phenols than soft woods do. So if you want to do woodworking you'll need to consider what will affect your finished product.
With that said, placing nails I think it's in rubbing alcohol will produce phenols. Steel wool also works. Then the solution will be richer in phenols so you can wet your wood with it before staining. And now I know why I prefer working with hardwoods.

p.s., With steel wool, I guess it needs to be 00 steal wool, that's as fine as it gets.
I just happened to remember I had this problem with trying to stain pine which is a softwood. And now you know why I use India ink which is black. The alternative is trying to figure out tannins.

sealover wrote: A clear example of why there is no point trying to discuss science on THIS website.

sealover wrote: That paper cites the research of the author of this thread.

sealover wrote: Someone with genuine interest in science might have wanted to ask the widely-cited researcher a question related to the research.

sealover wrote: Right here on this website, they could have asked a question ...

sealover wrote: ... and gotten an answer from a PhD biogeochemist ...

sealover wrote: ... whose research is widely cited in peer-reviewed papers about carbon sequestration.

sealover wrote: Both of these trolls, Swan and James, have excreted copious amounts of troll feces on this thread.

sealover wrote: Neither of these trolls has EVER asked a genuine question about biogeochemistry

sealover wrote:Their contribution simply assures that a new viewer will never be able to find anything useful unless they are willing to dig through tons of troll manure to find it.

sealover wrote: And this particular exchange at least comes close to science, as opposed to being a paranoid rant about homosexual predators or a snarky effort to belittle any attempt to discuss science.

sealover wrote: Why bother asking the published expert ...

sealover wrote: Trolls certainly have a lot to teach each other, don't they?

sealover wrote: It is difficult to read Branner's description of what this website is intended to accomplish without feeling disgusted by what he allowed it to become instead.

sealover wrote: He is unwilling to act as moderator. Ever.

sealover wrote: He is unwilling to allow anyone else to moderate the discussion.

sealover wrote:

James_ wrote:

Swan wrote:

Retard alert, the paper does not cite litter, which can be literally anything from rubber tires to arsenic, the paper quotes PLANT LITTER

The litter he mentioned discusses phenolics. I checked and this includes tannins.
https://www.englishwoodlandstimber.co.uk/talk-tannin-oak-chestnut-cladding-beam/

It's the chemical bonds it forms. The litter you mention in leaves also affect the trees that grew those leaves. A high tannin level in woodworking can be good. When you stain wood you like having a nice even stain, right?
And as the article on woodworking mentions, tannins (phenol) reacts to water. And when leaves "litter", their concentration of phenols is higher. This suggests that oxidation will occur. It might be like iron, water and air, iron oxide occurs. That's an electrolysis process. Different molecules create an electrical charge that affects the iron and other molecules it is interacting with.

If you look at soft woods, they have fewer phenols and need a pre-treatment that mimics phenols. Stains it seems adhere to phenols in the wood. It acts as a binding agent. Hardwoods have more phenols than soft woods do. So if you want to do woodworking you'll need to consider what will affect your finished product.
With that said, placing nails I think it's in rubbing alcohol will produce phenols. Steel wool also works. Then the solution will be richer in phenols so you can wet your wood with it before staining. And now I know why I prefer working with hardwoods.

p.s., With steel wool, I guess it needs to be 00 steal wool, that's as fine as it gets.
I just happened to remember I had this problem with trying to stain pine which is a softwood. And now you know why I use India ink which is black. The alternative is trying to figure out tannins.

-------------------------------------------------

A clear example of why there is no point trying to discuss science on THIS website.

Originally a paper was cited which contained the term "litter" in the title.

That paper cites the research of the author of this thread.

Someone with genuine interest in science might have wanted to ask the widely-cited researcher a question related to the research.

Right here on this website, they could have asked a question about science and gotten an answer from a PhD biogeochemist whose research is widely cited in peer-reviewed papers about carbon sequestration.

Instead, you get two trolls using it as an opportunity for an insult fest.

"Retard alert. The paper does not cite litter, which can be literally anything..."

"The litter he mentioned discusses phenolics. I checked and this includes tannins."

Both of these trolls, Swan and James, have excreted copious amounts of troll feces on this thread.

One might imagine this means they have some intellectual curiosity about carbon sequestration, etc. One would be wrong.

Neither of these trolls has EVER asked a genuine question about biogeochemistry of the published and widely cited biogeochemist who is the thread author.

Their contribution simply assures that a new viewer will never be able to find anything useful unless they are willing to dig through tons of troll manure to find it. And this particular exchange at least comes close to science, as opposed to being a paranoid rant about homosexual predators or a snarky effort to belittle any attempt to discuss science.

But wait... "The litter he mentioned discusses phenolics. I checked and this includes tannins."

Why bother asking the published expert about phenolics when all you have to do is "check" to find out that this includes tannins?

Trolls certainly have a lot to teach each other, don't they?

So, even if the absentee slumlord were to come in and evict the worst of the squatters (the ones with between 14000 and 24000 posts each), the thread would still be dominated by pointless insult fests of lesser trolls.

It is difficult to read Branner's description of what this website is intended to accomplish without feeling disgusted by what he allowed it to become instead.

He is unwilling to act as moderator. Ever.

He is unwilling to allow anyone else to moderate the discussion.

Perhaps Jeppe should be honored as the patron saint of trolls.

There is no point trying to discuss science on THIS website.

sealover wrote:
[quote]sealover wrote:
Nutrient cycling dynamics of natural ecosystems can be mimicked in cropping systems to maximize carbon sequestration into soil organic matter, and minimize emissions of nitrous oxide. Tannin (aka polyphenol) chemical ecology provides insights into biogeochemical mechanisms that regulate carbon and nitrogen cycling.

The convergent evolution of tannin-rich plant communities has occurred on highly-infertile soils throughout the world. To acquire and conserve nitrogen, these plants allocate much of their organic carbon below ground to support symbiotic mycorrhizal fungi associated with their roots. Tannins in plant litter form recalcitrant complexes with protein, immobilizing this organic form of nitrogen and preventing mineralization. Mycorrhizal fungi produce enzymes that mobilize nitrogen from protein-tannin complexes, which is transferred directly to the root in organic nitrogen form. This short circuiting of the mineralization step in the nitrogen cycle prevents emission of nitrous oxide to the atmosphere, and prevents export of nitrate to groundwater or surface water. Allocation of photosynthate below ground to support mycorrhizal fungi also enhances sequestration of carbon into soil organic matter.

Tannins inhibit the oxidation of ammonium in soil to nitrate by nitrifying bacteria. This minimizes nitrous oxide emission as a by product of microbial nitrate reduction. Nitrogen release from tannin-rich litter is predominantly in the form of dissolved organic nitrogen rather than ammonium or nitrate. Dissolved organic nitrogen adsorbs to soil organic matter, minimizing leaching loss of nitrogen and retaining it in slow release form.

Tannins inhibit the decomposition of organic matter to substantially increase its mean residence in or above the soil. In the most extreme cases, equatorial rainforests form massive litter layers over acid white sand soils that are virtually devoid of nutrients or roots. One- or two-meters thick layers of litter in various stages of decomposition can accumulate above the mineral soil surface. This is despite warm, wet, well drained conditions that favor rapid decomposition. Exceptionally high tannin content in the vegetation of these forests enables them to create an enduring layer of organic matter above the soil surface, where virtually all the root growth and nutrient cycling occurs with high efficiency, and negligible losses.

Tannins themselves are the dominant substrate that transforms into soil humic acids. Humic acids enhance soil fertility in many ways, and their mean residence time in soil can be many centuries long. Tannins can comprise more than half the dry weight in foliage of tannin-rich species, and much of this represents sequestered carbon that will remain for a long time as stable soil organic matter.

We may not want to create thick litter layers above the topsoil in all our croplands. But polyphenol biogeochemistry can still be applied to increase carbon sequestration and decrease nitrous oxide emission. For example, tannin-rich organic matter can be combined with more rapidly decomposable crop residues or manure to slow decomposition and immobilize nitrogen into slowly mineralized organic form, as compost. Crop-mycorrhizal associations could be facilitated to sequester carbon and access recalcitrant soil nitrogen.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the first post from page 1, as a reminder of what the thread topic is.

Pages 16 and 17 include a compilation of most relevant posts from pages 1-16.

Someone who is genuinely interested in the thread topic might want to see them.

Local trolls who have no interest in carbon cycling, perhaps refuse to believe that organic carbon even exists, are not being denied their right to free speech.

I hope that they are also aware that they have the right to remain silent.

James_ wrote: What carbon sequestration would be good for is industry that requires a large volume of CO2.

Im a BM wrote: James has cluttered up this thread with a whole bunch of... I don't even know what to call it. It isn't science.

Im a BM wrote: If James wants to learn about how tannins influence carbon sequestration, there are plenty of actual references to peer reviewed scientific articles listed here.

Im a BM wrote:The author of this thread is widely cited for his research into tannins.

Im a BM wrote: Why can't the effing trolls leave even just ONE thread available for discussion of actual science?

sealover wrote:
Nutrient cycling dynamics of natural ecosystems can be mimicked in cropping systems to maximize carbon sequestration into soil organic matter, and minimize emissions of nitrous oxide. Tannin (aka polyphenol) chemical ecology provides insights into biogeochemical mechanisms that regulate carbon and nitrogen cycling.

The convergent evolution of tannin-rich plant communities has occurred on highly-infertile soils throughout the world. To acquire and conserve nitrogen, these plants allocate much of their organic carbon below ground to support symbiotic mycorrhizal fungi associated with their roots. Tannins in plant litter form recalcitrant complexes with protein, immobilizing this organic form of nitrogen and preventing mineralization. Mycorrhizal fungi produce enzymes that mobilize nitrogen from protein-tannin complexes, which is transferred directly to the root in organic nitrogen form. This short circuiting of the mineralization step in the nitrogen cycle prevents emission of nitrous oxide to the atmosphere, and prevents export of nitrate to groundwater or surface water. Allocation of photosynthate below ground to support mycorrhizal fungi also enhances sequestration of carbon into soil organic matter.

Tannins inhibit the oxidation of ammonium in soil to nitrate by nitrifying bacteria. This minimizes nitrous oxide emission as a by product of microbial nitrate reduction. Nitrogen release from tannin-rich litter is predominantly in the form of dissolved organic nitrogen rather than ammonium or nitrate. Dissolved organic nitrogen adsorbs to soil organic matter, minimizing leaching loss of nitrogen and retaining it in slow release form.

Tannins inhibit the decomposition of organic matter to substantially increase its mean residence in or above the soil. In the most extreme cases, equatorial rainforests form massive litter layers over acid white sand soils that are virtually devoid of nutrients or roots. One- or two-meters thick layers of litter in various stages of decomposition can accumulate above the mineral soil surface. This is despite warm, wet, well drained conditions that favor rapid decomposition. Exceptionally high tannin content in the vegetation of these forests enables them to create an enduring layer of organic matter above the soil surface, where virtually all the root growth and nutrient cycling occurs with high efficiency, and negligible losses.

Tannins themselves are the dominant substrate that transforms into soil humic acids. Humic acids enhance soil fertility in many ways, and their mean residence time in soil can be many centuries long. Tannins can comprise more than half the dry weight in foliage of tannin-rich species, and much of this represents sequestered carbon that will remain for a long time as stable soil organic matter.

We may not want to create thick litter layers above the topsoil in all our croplands. But polyphenol biogeochemistry can still be applied to increase carbon sequestration and decrease nitrous oxide emission. For example, tannin-rich organic matter can be combined with more rapidly decomposable crop residues or manure to slow decomposition and immobilize nitrogen into slowly mineralized organic form, as compost. Crop-mycorrhizal associations could be facilitated to sequester carbon and access recalcitrant soil nitrogen.

sealover wrote: Tannins and climate change: Are tannins able to stabilize carbon in the soil?

IBdaMann wrote:

sealover wrote: Tannins and climate change: Are tannins able to stabilize carbon in the soil?

Color me surprised ... there's no definition of Climate Change.

The article could have been titled "Tannins and Zyxtherlivit" without any meaning being lost.

Scientific illiteracy at work.

sealover wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

sealover wrote: Tannins and climate change: Are tannins able to stabilize carbon in the soil?

Color me surprised ... there's no definition of Climate Change.

The article could have been titled "Tannins and Zyxtherlivit" without any meaning being lost.

Scientific illiteracy at work.

The title of the paper does not provide a definition for the term "soil".

sealover wrote: People who are trained in science know how to look up the definition of terms.

sealover wrote: "Climate change" is a pretty basic concept that is easy to grasp.

Im a BM wrote:
James has cluttered up this thread with a whole bunch of... I don't even know what to call it. It isn't science.

Im a BM wrote:
If James wants to learn about how tannins influence carbon sequestration, there are plenty of actual references to peer reviewed scientific articles listed here.

Im a BM wrote:
But finding them isn't easy, since you have to scroll past a bunch of absurd rants by James and others.

Im a BM wrote:
The author of this thread is widely cited for his research into tannins.

Im a BM wrote:
Actual published research in journals such as Nature and Biogeochemistry.

Im a BM wrote:
Why can't the effing trolls leave even just ONE thread available for discussion of actual science?

sealover wrote:
newest paper on thread topic. Came out 10 days ago.

sealover wrote:

B. Adamczyk. 2024. Tannins and climate change: Are tannins able to stabilize carbon in the soil? Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry. DOI: 10.1021/acs.jafc.4c00703

[b]sealover wrote:
[/b]
Of course, this new paper cites the author of this thread.

Available for discussion with PhD biogeochemist who is a recognized authority on how tannins (aka polyphenols) influence carbon cycling.
There is no such thing as biogeochemistry.
[quote]sealover wrote:
Nutrient cycling dynamics of natural ecosystems can be mimicked in cropping systems to maximize carbon sequestration into soil organic matter, and minimize emissions of nitrous oxide. Tannin (aka polyphenol) chemical ecology provides insights into biogeochemical mechanisms that regulate carbon and nitrogen cycling.

sealover wrote:
The convergent evolution of tannin-rich plant communities has occurred on highly-infertile soils throughout the world. To acquire and conserve nitrogen, these plants allocate much of their organic carbon

sealover wrote:
below ground to support symbiotic mycorrhizal fungi associated with their roots. Tannins in plant litter form recalcitrant complexes with protein, immobilizing this organic form of nitrogen and preventing mineralization. Mycorrhizal fungi produce enzymes that mobilize nitrogen from protein-tannin complexes, which is transferred directly to the root in organic nitrogen form. This short circuiting of the mineralization step in the nitrogen cycle prevents emission of nitrous oxide to the atmosphere, and prevents export of nitrate to groundwater or surface water. Allocation of photosynthate below ground to support mycorrhizal fungi also enhances sequestration of carbon into soil organic matter.
Tannin has no nitrogen. It's a carbohydrate. Why do you want to 'sequester' carbon? Carbon is a fuel.
[quote]sealover wrote:
Tannins inhibit the oxidation of ammonium in soil to nitrate by nitrifying bacteria.

sealover wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

sealover wrote: Tannins and climate change: Are tannins able to stabilize carbon in the soil?

Color me surprised ... there's no definition of Climate Change.

The article could have been titled "Tannins and Zyxtherlivit" without any meaning being lost.

Scientific illiteracy at work.

The title of the paper does not provide a definition for the term "soil".

Could have been titled "...stabilize carbon in the Onoilse", but a lot of meaning would have been lost.

People who are trained in science know how to look up the definition of terms.

"Climate change" is a pretty basic concept that is easy to grasp.

sealover wrote:
This is still the newest paper on thread's topic. It came out 14 days ago.


B. Adamczyk. 2024. Tannins and climate change: Are tannins able to stabilize carbon in the soil? Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry. DOI: 10.1021/acs.jafc.4c00703


The author and I are quite familiar with each other's research.

It was 35 years ago when I first became fully immersed in tannin (also known as polyphenol) research as a grad student at UC Berkeley.

At that time, anti herbivore defense was presumed to be the sole adaptive value for plants to make tannins, despite little evidence that they are effective.

Convoluted theories were created to explain why plant communities on highly infertile, acidic soils produced so much more tannin than plants on better soil, as somehow consistent with anti herbivore defense.

At that time, nobody considered how tannin production could benefit the plants that produce them through their impact on carbon and nitrogen cycling.

Tannins slow the decomposition of plant or soil organic matter they come into contact with. Tannins themselves are the substrate from which most soil humic acids are formed, having centuries long mean residence time in soil.

It is highly gratifying to see this finally reach the point where the application to address climate change is being so explicitly identified in the title of a new paper.

The following is not the abstract from the new paper. It is the first post of this thread.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

sealover wrote:
Nutrient cycling dynamics of natural ecosystems can be mimicked in cropping systems to maximize carbon sequestration into soil organic matter, and minimize emissions of nitrous oxide. Tannin (aka polyphenol) chemical ecology provides insights into biogeochemical mechanisms that regulate carbon and nitrogen cycling.

The convergent evolution of tannin-rich plant communities has occurred on highly-infertile soils throughout the world. To acquire and conserve nitrogen, these plants allocate much of their organic carbon below ground to support symbiotic mycorrhizal fungi associated with their roots. Tannins in plant litter form recalcitrant complexes with protein, immobilizing this organic form of nitrogen and preventing mineralization. Mycorrhizal fungi produce enzymes that mobilize nitrogen from protein-tannin complexes, which is transferred directly to the root in organic nitrogen form. This short circuiting of the mineralization step in the nitrogen cycle prevents emission of nitrous oxide to the atmosphere, and prevents export of nitrate to groundwater or surface water. Allocation of photosynthate below ground to support mycorrhizal fungi also enhances sequestration of carbon into soil organic matter.

Tannins inhibit the oxidation of ammonium in soil to nitrate by nitrifying bacteria. This minimizes nitrous oxide emission as a by product of microbial nitrate reduction. Nitrogen release from tannin-rich litter is predominantly in the form of dissolved organic nitrogen rather than ammonium or nitrate. Dissolved organic nitrogen adsorbs to soil organic matter, minimizing leaching loss of nitrogen and retaining it in slow release form.

Tannins inhibit the decomposition of organic matter to substantially increase its mean residence in or above the soil. In the most extreme cases, equatorial rainforests form massive litter layers over acid white sand soils that are virtually devoid of nutrients or roots. One- or two-meters thick layers of litter in various stages of decomposition can accumulate above the mineral soil surface. This is despite warm, wet, well drained conditions that favor rapid decomposition. Exceptionally high tannin content in the vegetation of these forests enables them to create an enduring layer of organic matter above the soil surface, where virtually all the root growth and nutrient cycling occurs with high efficiency, and negligible losses.

Tannins themselves are the dominant substrate that transforms into soil humic acids. Humic acids enhance soil fertility in many ways, and their mean residence time in soil can be many centuries long. Tannins can comprise more than half the dry weight in foliage of tannin-rich species, and much of this represents sequestered carbon that will remain for a long time as stable soil organic matter.

We may not want to create thick litter layers above the topsoil in all our croplands. But polyphenol biogeochemistry can still be applied to increase carbon sequestration and decrease nitrous oxide emission. For example, tannin-rich organic matter can be combined with more rapidly decomposable crop residues or manure to slow decomposition and immobilize nitrogen into slowly mineralized organic form, as compost. Crop-mycorrhizal associations could be facilitated to sequester carbon and access recalcitrant soil nitrogen.

sealover wrote:
[quote]sealover wrote:
This is still the newest paper on thread's topic. It came out 14 days ago.
...deleted spam...

Into the Night wrote:

sealover wrote:
[quote]sealover wrote:
This is still the newest paper on thread's topic. It came out 14 days ago.
...deleted spam...

Repetition of your spam accomplishes nothing, dude.

squeal over furniture wrote: Someone who can't figure out what people are talking about when they use the term "climate change" might want to spare themselves the embarrassment of admitting they just don't understand basic terms in science

squeal over furniture wrote: I'm making some headway with the coastal biogeochemists to apply the work I did from 2005-2012 in coastal wetland groundwater biogeochemistry.

sealover wrote:

sealover wrote:
This is still the newest paper on thread's topic. It came out 14 days ago.


B. Adamczyk. 2024. Tannins and climate change: Are tannins able to stabilize carbon in the soil? Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry. DOI: 10.1021/acs.jafc.4c00703


The author and I are quite familiar with each other's research.

It was 35 years ago when I first became fully immersed in tannin (also known as polyphenol) research as a grad student at UC Berkeley.

At that time, anti herbivore defense was presumed to be the sole adaptive value for plants to make tannins, despite little evidence that they are effective.

Convoluted theories were created to explain why plant communities on highly infertile, acidic soils produced so much more tannin than plants on better soil, as somehow consistent with anti herbivore defense.

At that time, nobody considered how tannin production could benefit the plants that produce them through their impact on carbon and nitrogen cycling.

Tannins slow the decomposition of plant or soil organic matter they come into contact with. Tannins themselves are the substrate from which most soil humic acids are formed, having centuries long mean residence time in soil.

It is highly gratifying to see this finally reach the point where the application to address climate change is being so explicitly identified in the title of a new paper.

The following is not the abstract from the new paper. It is the first post of this thread.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

sealover wrote:
Nutrient cycling dynamics of natural ecosystems can be mimicked in cropping systems to maximize carbon sequestration into soil organic matter, and minimize emissions of nitrous oxide. Tannin (aka polyphenol) chemical ecology provides insights into biogeochemical mechanisms that regulate carbon and nitrogen cycling.

The convergent evolution of tannin-rich plant communities has occurred on highly-infertile soils throughout the world. To acquire and conserve nitrogen, these plants allocate much of their organic carbon below ground to support symbiotic mycorrhizal fungi associated with their roots. Tannins in plant litter form recalcitrant complexes with protein, immobilizing this organic form of nitrogen and preventing mineralization. Mycorrhizal fungi produce enzymes that mobilize nitrogen from protein-tannin complexes, which is transferred directly to the root in organic nitrogen form. This short circuiting of the mineralization step in the nitrogen cycle prevents emission of nitrous oxide to the atmosphere, and prevents export of nitrate to groundwater or surface water. Allocation of photosynthate below ground to support mycorrhizal fungi also enhances sequestration of carbon into soil organic matter.

Tannins inhibit the oxidation of ammonium in soil to nitrate by nitrifying bacteria. This minimizes nitrous oxide emission as a by product of microbial nitrate reduction. Nitrogen release from tannin-rich litter is predominantly in the form of dissolved organic nitrogen rather than ammonium or nitrate. Dissolved organic nitrogen adsorbs to soil organic matter, minimizing leaching loss of nitrogen and retaining it in slow release form.

Tannins inhibit the decomposition of organic matter to substantially increase its mean residence in or above the soil. In the most extreme cases, equatorial rainforests form massive litter layers over acid white sand soils that are virtually devoid of nutrients or roots. One- or two-meters thick layers of litter in various stages of decomposition can accumulate above the mineral soil surface. This is despite warm, wet, well drained conditions that favor rapid decomposition. Exceptionally high tannin content in the vegetation of these forests enables them to create an enduring layer of organic matter above the soil surface, where virtually all the root growth and nutrient cycling occurs with high efficiency, and negligible losses.

Tannins themselves are the dominant substrate that transforms into soil humic acids. Humic acids enhance soil fertility in many ways, and their mean residence time in soil can be many centuries long. Tannins can comprise more than half the dry weight in foliage of tannin-rich species, and much of this represents sequestered carbon that will remain for a long time as stable soil organic matter.

We may not want to create thick litter layers above the topsoil in all our croplands. But polyphenol biogeochemistry can still be applied to increase carbon sequestration and decrease nitrous oxide emission. For example, tannin-rich organic matter can be combined with more rapidly decomposable crop residues or manure to slow decomposition and immobilize nitrogen into slowly mineralized organic form, as compost. Crop-mycorrhizal associations could be facilitated to sequester carbon and access recalcitrant soil nitrogen.