Maximizing Carbon Sequestration in Terrestrial Agroecosystems

sealover wrote:
[quote]sealover wrote:
[quote]Im a BM wrote:
Soil science is a major underlying theme in discussion of carbon sequestration.

My first significant paper about these things was published in 1995.


(Yours truly et al). 1995. Intraspecific variation of conifer phenolic concentration on a marine terrace soil acidity gradient; A new interpretation. Plant and Soil. Volume 171, pages 255-262.


These coastal terraces on have soils ranging from pH 5 on the youngest and most fertile terrace to pH 3 on the oldest and least fertile terrace.

The pygmy forest grows on ancient soils (ranging from 300000 to 500000 years of soil development) that are EXTREMELY infertile and strongly acidic.

It was an ideal opportunity to investigate the mechanisms that enable oligotrophic ecosystems to sustain productivity over geologic time, recycling a tiny pool of nutrients under conditions of high potential leaching loss.

It turns out that the same mechanisms that prevent nutrient loss also prevent loss of soil organic carbon.

The "gibber babble" will be meaningless to scientifically illiterate trolls.

Sooner or later, someone will join the discussion who understands actual science and the "gibber babble" used to communicate it.

It may be of historic interest to have a reference for what was literally the first paper published on this particular topic - chemical adaptations to extreme soil conditions.

The trolls may continue to insist that I don't even know what science is. That's okay. Other scientists take my work pretty seriously.

Maybe the next post should get into some of the papers that CITED this one, coming out after 1995, because they continue right up to this year.

And since a fundamental requirement of the scientific method is that the results must be "reproducible", it is an important reality test after a discovery is published to see if other scientists can confirm it.

In fact, obvious proof that a "discovery" was NOT valid is if nobody ever bothers to cite it because it wasn't reproducible. Of if the only citations are to refute it.

It's okay if I get nothing but insults down here in the rabbit hole. I get plenty of praise from real scientists in the real world

sealover wrote:
[quote]sealover wrote:
Nutrient cycling dynamics of natural ecosystems can be mimicked in cropping systems to maximize carbon sequestration into soil organic matter, and minimize emissions of nitrous oxide. Tannin (aka polyphenol) chemical ecology provides insights into biogeochemical mechanisms that regulate carbon and nitrogen cycling.

The convergent evolution of tannin-rich plant communities has occurred on highly-infertile soils throughout the world. To acquire and conserve nitrogen, these plants allocate much of their organic carbon below ground to support symbiotic mycorrhizal fungi associated with their roots. Tannins in plant litter form recalcitrant complexes with protein, immobilizing this organic form of nitrogen and preventing mineralization. Mycorrhizal fungi produce enzymes that mobilize nitrogen from protein-tannin complexes, which is transferred directly to the root in organic nitrogen form. This short circuiting of the mineralization step in the nitrogen cycle prevents emission of nitrous oxide to the atmosphere, and prevents export of nitrate to groundwater or surface water. Allocation of photosynthate below ground to support mycorrhizal fungi also enhances sequestration of carbon into soil organic matter.

Tannins inhibit the oxidation of ammonium in soil to nitrate by nitrifying bacteria. This minimizes nitrous oxide emission as a by product of microbial nitrate reduction. Nitrogen release from tannin-rich litter is predominantly in the form of dissolved organic nitrogen rather than ammonium or nitrate. Dissolved organic nitrogen adsorbs to soil organic matter, minimizing leaching loss of nitrogen and retaining it in slow release form.

Tannins inhibit the decomposition of organic matter to substantially increase its mean residence in or above the soil. In the most extreme cases, equatorial rainforests form massive litter layers over acid white sand soils that are virtually devoid of nutrients or roots. One- or two-meters thick layers of litter in various stages of decomposition can accumulate above the mineral soil surface. This is despite warm, wet, well drained conditions that favor rapid decomposition. Exceptionally high tannin content in the vegetation of these forests enables them to create an enduring layer of organic matter above the soil surface, where virtually all the root growth and nutrient cycling occurs with high efficiency, and negligible losses.

Tannins themselves are the dominant substrate that transforms into soil humic acids. Humic acids enhance soil fertility in many ways, and their mean residence time in soil can be many centuries long. Tannins can comprise more than half the dry weight in foliage of tannin-rich species, and much of this represents sequestered carbon that will remain for a long time as stable soil organic matter.

We may not want to create thick litter layers above the topsoil in all our croplands. But polyphenol biogeochemistry can still be applied to increase carbon sequestration and decrease nitrous oxide emission. For example, tannin-rich organic matter can be combined with more rapidly decomposable crop residues or manure to slow decomposition and immobilize nitrogen into slowly mineralized organic form, as compost. Crop-mycorrhizal associations could be facilitated to sequester carbon and access recalcitrant soil nitrogen.

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This is the first post from page 1, as a reminder of what the thread topic is.

Pages 16 and 17 include a compilation of most relevant posts from pages 1-16.

Someone who is genuinely interested in the thread topic might want to see them.

Local trolls who have no interest in carbon cycling, perhaps refuse to believe that organic carbon even exists, are not being denied their right to free speech.

I hope that they are also aware that they have the right to remain silent.

James_ wrote:

sealover wrote:
[quote]sealover wrote:
Nutrient cycling dynamics of natural ecosystems can be mimicked in cropping systems to maximize carbon sequestration into soil organic matter, and minimize emissions of nitrous oxide. Tannin (aka polyphenol) chemical ecology provides insights into biogeochemical mechanisms that regulate carbon and nitrogen cycling.

The convergent evolution of tannin-rich plant communities has occurred on highly-infertile soils throughout the world. To acquire and conserve nitrogen, these plants allocate much of their organic carbon below ground to support symbiotic mycorrhizal fungi associated with their roots. Tannins in plant litter form recalcitrant complexes with protein, immobilizing this organic form of nitrogen and preventing mineralization. Mycorrhizal fungi produce enzymes that mobilize nitrogen from protein-tannin complexes, which is transferred directly to the root in organic nitrogen form. This short circuiting of the mineralization step in the nitrogen cycle prevents emission of nitrous oxide to the atmosphere, and prevents export of nitrate to groundwater or surface water. Allocation of photosynthate below ground to support mycorrhizal fungi also enhances sequestration of carbon into soil organic matter.

Tannins inhibit the oxidation of ammonium in soil to nitrate by nitrifying bacteria. This minimizes nitrous oxide emission as a by product of microbial nitrate reduction. Nitrogen release from tannin-rich litter is predominantly in the form of dissolved organic nitrogen rather than ammonium or nitrate. Dissolved organic nitrogen adsorbs to soil organic matter, minimizing leaching loss of nitrogen and retaining it in slow release form.

Tannins inhibit the decomposition of organic matter to substantially increase its mean residence in or above the soil. In the most extreme cases, equatorial rainforests form massive litter layers over acid white sand soils that are virtually devoid of nutrients or roots. One- or two-meters thick layers of litter in various stages of decomposition can accumulate above the mineral soil surface. This is despite warm, wet, well drained conditions that favor rapid decomposition. Exceptionally high tannin content in the vegetation of these forests enables them to create an enduring layer of organic matter above the soil surface, where virtually all the root growth and nutrient cycling occurs with high efficiency, and negligible losses.

Tannins themselves are the dominant substrate that transforms into soil humic acids. Humic acids enhance soil fertility in many ways, and their mean residence time in soil can be many centuries long. Tannins can comprise more than half the dry weight in foliage of tannin-rich species, and much of this represents sequestered carbon that will remain for a long time as stable soil organic matter.

We may not want to create thick litter layers above the topsoil in all our croplands. But polyphenol biogeochemistry can still be applied to increase carbon sequestration and decrease nitrous oxide emission. For example, tannin-rich organic matter can be combined with more rapidly decomposable crop residues or manure to slow decomposition and immobilize nitrogen into slowly mineralized organic form, as compost. Crop-mycorrhizal associations could be facilitated to sequester carbon and access recalcitrant soil nitrogen.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the first post from page 1, as a reminder of what the thread topic is.

Pages 16 and 17 include a compilation of most relevant posts from pages 1-16.

Someone who is genuinely interested in the thread topic might want to see them.

Local trolls who have no interest in carbon cycling, perhaps refuse to believe that organic carbon even exists, are not being denied their right to free speech.

I hope that they are also aware that they have the right to remain silent.

And tannins come from steel wool being placed in vinegar. What chemical process in soil allows for this. I know I'm being a complete a$$hole but just wanted to make someone's day miserable and this is the forum for that.
I mean the next thing I know ITN will be saying that the Straight of Juan de Fuca and the Puget Sound are the Salish Sea. Just not sure what map he's looking at.

Swan wrote:Nope, tannins come from the mating dance of amphibian alligators.

IBdaMann wrote:

Swan wrote:Nope, tannins come from the mating dance of amphibian alligators.

... which would be all of them. Tannin' is what you do to the gator hide to get those awesome amphibian boots.

.

sealover wrote:
This paper came out 12 years ago in the highly prestigious journal SCIENCE.
[quote]sealover wrote:
Of course, it cites the author of this thread for relevant work regarding lignin in decomposing plant litter.

DC Eastwood, et al. 2011. The plant cell wall-decomposing machinery underlies the functional diversity of forest fungi. Science. Volume 333 issue 6043 pp 762-765.


The carbohydrates cellulose and hemicellulose are found along with the phenolic polymer lignin as structural components in the cell walls of plants.

sealover wrote:
The chemical differences between carbohydrates and phenolics require entirely different "machinery" in forest soil fungi to degrade them.

sealover wrote:
The carbohydrates (cellulose and hemicellulose) can be degraded by "brown rot" fungi as a source of metabolic energy. Free living fungi (not in symbiosis with plant roots) can make a living from carbohydrate respiration.

sealover wrote:
The phenolic polymer (lignin) is much more difficult to degrade. "White rot" fungi can do this, but they don't get metabolic energy from lignin respiration.

sealover wrote:
They need an outside energy source (a symbiotic plant or a carbohydrate meal elsewhere) in order to tear apart the lignin. This makes the nitrogen tied up in ligno-protein complexes available for uptake.

Into the Night wrote:
...repairing quoting damage... maybe someday you'll figure out how to quote a post...

sealover wrote:
This paper came out 12 years ago in the highly prestigious journal SCIENCE.
[quote]sealover wrote:
Of course, it cites the author of this thread for relevant work regarding lignin in decomposing plant litter.

DC Eastwood, et al. 2011. The plant cell wall-decomposing machinery underlies the functional diversity of forest fungi. Science. Volume 333 issue 6043 pp 762-765.


The carbohydrates cellulose and hemicellulose are found along with the phenolic polymer lignin as structural components in the cell walls of plants.

Lignin is a carbohydrate.

sealover wrote:
The chemical differences between carbohydrates and phenolics require entirely different "machinery" in forest soil fungi to degrade them.

Lignin is a carbohydrate.

sealover wrote:
The carbohydrates (cellulose and hemicellulose) can be degraded by "brown rot" fungi as a source of metabolic energy. Free living fungi (not in symbiosis with plant roots) can make a living from carbohydrate respiration.

There is no such thing as 'carbohydrate respiration'.

sealover wrote:
The phenolic polymer (lignin) is much more difficult to degrade. "White rot" fungi can do this, but they don't get metabolic energy from lignin respiration.

There is no such thing as 'lignin respiration'.

sealover wrote:
They need an outside energy source (a symbiotic plant or a carbohydrate meal elsewhere) in order to tear apart the lignin. This makes the nitrogen tied up in ligno-protein complexes available for uptake.

Lignin is a carbohydrate.

Swan wrote:I know exactly what chucky Darwin babbled

My dear Hooker,

... It is often said that all the conditions for the first production of a living organism are now present, which could ever have been present.

But if (and oh what a big if) we could conceive in some warm little pond with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, - light, heat, electricity &c. present, that a protein compound was chemically formed, ready to undergo still more complex changes, at the present day such matter wd be instantly devoured, or absorbed, which would not have been the case before living creatures were formed.

Babbles because not even one gene could form from nothing and literally everyone now knows this, but Darwin never saw a gene, he thought life was goo

IBdaMann wrote:

Swan wrote:I know exactly what chucky Darwin babbled

My dear Hooker,

... It is often said that all the conditions for the first production of a living organism are now present, which could ever have been present.

But if (and oh what a big if) we could conceive in some warm little pond with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, - light, heat, electricity &c. present, that a protein compound was chemically formed, ready to undergo still more complex changes, at the present day such matter wd be instantly devoured, or absorbed, which would not have been the case before living creatures were formed.

Babbles because not even one gene could form from nothing and literally everyone now knows this, but Darwin never saw a gene, he thought life was goo

So it's a simple matter of you having zero reading comprehension. Charles Darwin is expressing your very concern. He did not believe in abiogenesis. You and he agree completely. If only you had learned to read you might not need me to teach you this.

Into the Night wrote:Lignin is a carbohydrate.

What Is Lignin?

Lignin is a carbohydrate and an irregular, phenolic compound that provides structure and support for plant life. Lignin in plants is found in and between the cell walls of plants, serving to bind cells and lend durability to plant matter. It is a vital, major biological component of all manner of plants, from woody trees to plants with freestanding stems to crunchy vegetables. In fact, it is the second-most-common biological material on the planet (the first being cellulose, which makes up the cell walls that lignin supports). Lignin is a huge source of sequestered carbon, accounting for 30% of all biological carbon, and up to 20% of the dry weight of all woody plants. This also makes it one of the most abundant sources of renewable carbon on Earth.

Lignin is the main component of the fiber in a person's diet. There is lignin in the wood in that person's house. The word "lignin" is a combination of the Latin lignum," which means "wood," and the scientific suffix -in," which denotes a neutral substance. Lignin in wood is probably the most obvious, abundant illustration of the definition of lignin and what that compound does.

Lignin Structure

Is lignin a carbohydrate? Yes, as it's composed of carbon, oxygen and hydrogen. It's also a polymer, creating, huge, irregular branches within the structure of a plant. There are three broad classes of lignins found in different types of plants:

Guaiacyl lignin: soft woods
Gaiacyl-syringyl lignin: hard woods
Graminaceous lignin: grasses and annual plants

IBdaMann wrote:

Into the Night wrote:Lignin is a carbohydrate.

Isn't a carbohydrate organic matter of the form C[H2O]? Isn't lignin always of the form C[H2O]? It appears that lignin is indeed a carbohydrate. I then looked up the biogeochemist primer on lignin and this is what it reads:

What Is Lignin?

Lignin is a carbohydrate and an irregular, phenolic compound that provides structure and support for plant life. Lignin in plants is found in and between the cell walls of plants, serving to bind cells and lend durability to plant matter. It is a vital, major biological component of all manner of plants, from woody trees to plants with freestanding stems to crunchy vegetables. In fact, it is the second-most-common biological material on the planet (the first being cellulose, which makes up the cell walls that lignin supports). Lignin is a huge source of sequestered carbon, accounting for 30% of all biological carbon, and up to 20% of the dry weight of all woody plants. This also makes it one of the most abundant sources of renewable carbon on Earth.

Lignin is the main component of the fiber in a person's diet. There is lignin in the wood in that person's house. The word "lignin" is a combination of the Latin lignum," which means "wood," and the scientific suffix -in," which denotes a neutral substance. Lignin in wood is probably the most obvious, abundant illustration of the definition of lignin and what that compound does.

Lignin Structure

Is lignin a carbohydrate? Yes, as it's composed of carbon, oxygen and hydrogen. It's also a polymer, creating, huge, irregular branches within the structure of a plant. There are three broad classes of lignins found in different types of plants:

Guaiacyl lignin: soft woods
Gaiacyl-syringyl lignin: hard woods
Graminaceous lignin: grasses and annual plants

So lignin is a carbohydrate that sequesters carbon. That certainly sounds like a biogeochemist take if I've ever heard one. "I'm going to eat some carrots and get my daily dose of sequestered carbon."

.

Swan wrote:Says the idiot who claims that the last ice age never happened because I was not there to see it?

IBdaMann wrote:

Swan wrote:Says the idiot who claims that the last ice age never happened because I was not there to see it?

Says the idiot who doesn't know the difference between a question and a declarative statement.

.

IBdaMann wrote:

Into the Night wrote:Lignin is a carbohydrate.

Isn't a carbohydrate organic matter of the form C[H2O]? Isn't lignin always of the form C[H2O]? It appears that lignin is indeed a carbohydrate. I then looked up the biogeochemist primer on lignin and this is what it reads:

What Is Lignin?

Lignin is a carbohydrate and an irregular, phenolic compound that provides structure and support for plant life. Lignin in plants is found in and between the cell walls of plants, serving to bind cells and lend durability to plant matter. It is a vital, major biological component of all manner of plants, from woody trees to plants with freestanding stems to crunchy vegetables. In fact, it is the second-most-common biological material on the planet (the first being cellulose, which makes up the cell walls that lignin supports). Lignin is a huge source of sequestered carbon, accounting for 30% of all biological carbon, and up to 20% of the dry weight of all woody plants. This also makes it one of the most abundant sources of renewable carbon on Earth.

Lignin is the main component of the fiber in a person's diet. There is lignin in the wood in that person's house. The word "lignin" is a combination of the Latin lignum," which means "wood," and the scientific suffix -in," which denotes a neutral substance. Lignin in wood is probably the most obvious, abundant illustration of the definition of lignin and what that compound does.

Lignin Structure

Is lignin a carbohydrate? Yes, as it's composed of carbon, oxygen and hydrogen. It's also a polymer, creating, huge, irregular branches within the structure of a plant. There are three broad classes of lignins found in different types of plants:

Guaiacyl lignin: soft woods
Gaiacyl-syringyl lignin: hard woods
Graminaceous lignin: grasses and annual plants

So lignin is a carbohydrate that sequesters carbon. That certainly sounds like a biogeochemist take if I've ever heard one. "I'm going to eat some carrots and get my daily dose of sequestered carbon."

.

Im a BM wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

Into the Night wrote:Lignin is a carbohydrate.

Isn't a carbohydrate organic matter of the form C[H2O]? Isn't lignin always of the form C[H2O]? It appears that lignin is indeed a carbohydrate. I then looked up the biogeochemist primer on lignin and this is what it reads:

What Is Lignin?

Lignin is a carbohydrate and an irregular, phenolic compound that provides structure and support for plant life. Lignin in plants is found in and between the cell walls of plants, serving to bind cells and lend durability to plant matter. It is a vital, major biological component of all manner of plants, from woody trees to plants with freestanding stems to crunchy vegetables. In fact, it is the second-most-common biological material on the planet (the first being cellulose, which makes up the cell walls that lignin supports). Lignin is a huge source of sequestered carbon, accounting for 30% of all biological carbon, and up to 20% of the dry weight of all woody plants. This also makes it one of the most abundant sources of renewable carbon on Earth.

Lignin is the main component of the fiber in a person's diet. There is lignin in the wood in that person's house. The word "lignin" is a combination of the Latin lignum," which means "wood," and the scientific suffix -in," which denotes a neutral substance. Lignin in wood is probably the most obvious, abundant illustration of the definition of lignin and what that compound does.

Lignin Structure

Is lignin a carbohydrate? Yes, as it's composed of carbon, oxygen and hydrogen. It's also a polymer, creating, huge, irregular branches within the structure of a plant. There are three broad classes of lignins found in different types of plants:

Guaiacyl lignin: soft woods
Gaiacyl-syringyl lignin: hard woods
Graminaceous lignin: grasses and annual plants

So lignin is a carbohydrate that sequesters carbon. That certainly sounds like a biogeochemist take if I've ever heard one. "I'm going to eat some carrots and get my daily dose of sequestered carbon."

.

Lignin chemical formula C3H3O or C3H3O2 not even close to carbohydrate

But at least you figured out that it is found in the cell wall.

Im a BM wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

Into the Night wrote:Lignin is a carbohydrate.

Isn't a carbohydrate organic matter of the form C[H2O]? Isn't lignin always of the form C[H2O]? It appears that lignin is indeed a carbohydrate. I then looked up the biogeochemist primer on lignin and this is what it reads:

What Is Lignin?

Lignin is a carbohydrate and an irregular, phenolic compound that provides structure and support for plant life. Lignin in plants is found in and between the cell walls of plants, serving to bind cells and lend durability to plant matter. It is a vital, major biological component of all manner of plants, from woody trees to plants with freestanding stems to crunchy vegetables. In fact, it is the second-most-common biological material on the planet (the first being cellulose, which makes up the cell walls that lignin supports). Lignin is a huge source of sequestered carbon, accounting for 30% of all biological carbon, and up to 20% of the dry weight of all woody plants. This also makes it one of the most abundant sources of renewable carbon on Earth.

Lignin is the main component of the fiber in a person's diet. There is lignin in the wood in that person's house. The word "lignin" is a combination of the Latin lignum," which means "wood," and the scientific suffix -in," which denotes a neutral substance. Lignin in wood is probably the most obvious, abundant illustration of the definition of lignin and what that compound does.

Lignin Structure

Is lignin a carbohydrate? Yes, as it's composed of carbon, oxygen and hydrogen. It's also a polymer, creating, huge, irregular branches within the structure of a plant. There are three broad classes of lignins found in different types of plants:

Guaiacyl lignin: soft woods
Gaiacyl-syringyl lignin: hard woods
Graminaceous lignin: grasses and annual plants

So lignin is a carbohydrate that sequesters carbon. That certainly sounds like a biogeochemist take if I've ever heard one. "I'm going to eat some carrots and get my daily dose of sequestered carbon."

.

Lignin chemical formula C3H3O or C3H3O2 not even close to carbohydrate

But at least you figured out that it is found in the cell wall.

Swan wrote:

Im a BM wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

Into the Night wrote:Lignin is a carbohydrate.

Isn't a carbohydrate organic matter of the form C[H2O]? Isn't lignin always of the form C[H2O]? It appears that lignin is indeed a carbohydrate. I then looked up the biogeochemist primer on lignin and this is what it reads:

What Is Lignin?

Lignin is a carbohydrate and an irregular, phenolic compound that provides structure and support for plant life. Lignin in plants is found in and between the cell walls of plants, serving to bind cells and lend durability to plant matter. It is a vital, major biological component of all manner of plants, from woody trees to plants with freestanding stems to crunchy vegetables. In fact, it is the second-most-common biological material on the planet (the first being cellulose, which makes up the cell walls that lignin supports). Lignin is a huge source of sequestered carbon, accounting for 30% of all biological carbon, and up to 20% of the dry weight of all woody plants. This also makes it one of the most abundant sources of renewable carbon on Earth.

Lignin is the main component of the fiber in a person's diet. There is lignin in the wood in that person's house. The word "lignin" is a combination of the Latin lignum," which means "wood," and the scientific suffix -in," which denotes a neutral substance. Lignin in wood is probably the most obvious, abundant illustration of the definition of lignin and what that compound does.

Lignin Structure

Is lignin a carbohydrate? Yes, as it's composed of carbon, oxygen and hydrogen. It's also a polymer, creating, huge, irregular branches within the structure of a plant. There are three broad classes of lignins found in different types of plants:

Guaiacyl lignin: soft woods
Gaiacyl-syringyl lignin: hard woods
Graminaceous lignin: grasses and annual plants

So lignin is a carbohydrate that sequesters carbon. That certainly sounds like a biogeochemist take if I've ever heard one. "I'm going to eat some carrots and get my daily dose of sequestered carbon."

.

Lignin chemical formula C3H3O or C3H3O2 not even close to carbohydrate

But at least you figured out that it is found in the cell wall.

What is the reason for this discussion? I mean wouldn't a discussion of creating element 115 by bombarding plutonium with atomized cranberry juice be more informative?

James_ wrote:

Swan wrote:

Im a BM wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

Into the Night wrote:Lignin is a carbohydrate.

Isn't a carbohydrate organic matter of the form C[H2O]? Isn't lignin always of the form C[H2O]? It appears that lignin is indeed a carbohydrate. I then looked up the biogeochemist primer on lignin and this is what it reads:

What Is Lignin?

Lignin is a carbohydrate and an irregular, phenolic compound that provides structure and support for plant life. Lignin in plants is found in and between the cell walls of plants, serving to bind cells and lend durability to plant matter. It is a vital, major biological component of all manner of plants, from woody trees to plants with freestanding stems to crunchy vegetables. In fact, it is the second-most-common biological material on the planet (the first being cellulose, which makes up the cell walls that lignin supports). Lignin is a huge source of sequestered carbon, accounting for 30% of all biological carbon, and up to 20% of the dry weight of all woody plants. This also makes it one of the most abundant sources of renewable carbon on Earth.

Lignin is the main component of the fiber in a person's diet. There is lignin in the wood in that person's house. The word "lignin" is a combination of the Latin lignum," which means "wood," and the scientific suffix -in," which denotes a neutral substance. Lignin in wood is probably the most obvious, abundant illustration of the definition of lignin and what that compound does.

Lignin Structure

Is lignin a carbohydrate? Yes, as it's composed of carbon, oxygen and hydrogen. It's also a polymer, creating, huge, irregular branches within the structure of a plant. There are three broad classes of lignins found in different types of plants:

Guaiacyl lignin: soft woods
Gaiacyl-syringyl lignin: hard woods
Graminaceous lignin: grasses and annual plants

So lignin is a carbohydrate that sequesters carbon. That certainly sounds like a biogeochemist take if I've ever heard one. "I'm going to eat some carrots and get my daily dose of sequestered carbon."

.

Lignin chemical formula C3H3O or C3H3O2 not even close to carbohydrate

But at least you figured out that it is found in the cell wall.

What is the reason for this discussion? I mean wouldn't a discussion of creating element 115 by bombarding plutonium with atomized cranberry juice be more informative?

It's to find out if you know basic science. I'm ignorant when it comes to chemistry and have to ask why an ionic bond when we can have a covalent bond. Does O really bond with O to form O2 because one is missing an electron?
And yet with a covalent bond they'd share the electron. With the ionic bond that'd get more into Coulomb's law, et al. This is second grade stuff, junior high school was so much more fun. They had a model rocketry club.

Im a BM wrote:Lignin chemical formula C3H3O or C3H3O2 not even close to carbohydrate.

IBdaMann wrote:

sealover wrote:Wetlands are very effective at sequestering carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and storing it as organic carbon

Presuming you have friends, do you ask them if they would like to join you to eat lunch ... or do you ask them if they'd like to sequester food with you and store it as organic matter?

I'm just curious. Does the phrase "sequester food" help you bring the lunch invitation down to your layman audience?

sealover wrote: preserved against decomposition by low oxygen conditions.

When you go to lunch, do you specify "conditions of sufficient oxygen"? Have you ever suffered a low-oxygen ordeal that left you unpreserved against decomposition?

sealover wrote:Rainforest fern thickets are very effective at sequestering carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and storing it as organic carbon, preserved against decomposition under aerobic conditions by high vegetation tannin content.

... so does my lawn.

sealover wrote:Fern thickets are specialists at taking over disturbed sites in rainforest.

... so are real estate developers.

sealover wrote: Where the canopy has been cleared and sunlight can reach the ground, a first wave of pioneer species moves in. Fast growing trees and brush exploit the available sunlight, and enhanced soil nutrient availability typically associated with site disturbance.

I'm glad that you are willing to discuss the upside to urban sprawl. Most people won't even go there.

sealover wrote:The pioneer species get off to a good start, but then the ferns start creeping in.

I typically hire an illegal immigrant to do weeding and to perform landscaping odd jobs. There, I said it. I confess. I hire illegal immigrants, and I don't even require them to speak English. What can I say? When I need some work done, it seems like illegal immigrants are the only ones who don't refuse because the fair market price that I am offering is too far below the artificially inflated union wage. "If you want an American to do the work who speaks English, you've got to pay through the nose ... and then cover health care."

So you think that ferns give you the right to mandate some artificial minimum wage?

sealover wrote:Their trick isn't to grow tall faster than anyone to get the sun. In fact, the ferns are relatively slow growers as they creep up like vines to cover the pioneer trees. The lower lying brush hasn't got a chance. The ferns just climb over and pile on top of it. The pioneer trees haven't got a chance. The ones that were tall enough to avoid being overtopped are now being poisoned by manganese toxicity.

Ferns ... bloody assassins they are.

sealover wrote:Within a decade, 2 meters thick accumulation of fern litter overlies the mineral soil surface. 2 meters tall ferns form a dense thicket on top of the litter.

If we should ever discuss Arctic ice accumulation, you'll be the first to whine and complain about my use of the word "accumulation" which happens to be exactly as you use it. You'll claim that I am totally distorting the meaning of the word. I can't wait.

sealover wrote:Pioneer trees are now dead trunks or sickly things with purple leaves displaying manganese toxicity.

I so totally get it. Mental imagery of dead old-growth forests. The sadness. The sorrow. The despondency I feel. Alas, to whom can I write a check?

... except that nobody seems to be having this problem. This is kind of an invented issue.

... but I still want to write a check.

sealover wrote:A huge amount of carbon dioxide got sequestered from the atmosphere and is now stored in a thick litter layer above the soil.

Surely you have to know that your absurd imagery only sparks concern in those uneducated few who somehow believe that CO2 is poison/pollution. I'm reading what you are writing and wondering "Is he ever going to get to some sort of point?"

sealover wrote:The fern has total phenolic content, from tannins, that are among the very highest among all plant species in the world.

Your lay audience will thank you for bringing the discussion down to their level.

sealover wrote:This makes it hard for microorganisms to degrade the fern litter.

Cry me a river.

sealover wrote:Monospecific fern thickets can impede forest succession for decades. But they sure can sequester that carbon!

... But the forest will eventually grow back in and shade the ferns out.

Meanwhile, the fern thickets protected the soil and water supply, and built up a whole lot of soil organic matter for the next community.

Everybody loves a happy ending. Next time just jump to it.

IBdaMann wrote:

Im a BM wrote:Lignin chemical formula C3H3O or C3H3O2 not even close to carbohydrate.

It meets the definition of carbohydrate, and you don't seem to have any explanation for how it does not.

Both C3H3O or C3H3O2 appear to be of the form C[H2O].

I take it that we are done. Have a great day.

Im a BM wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

Into the Night wrote:Lignin is a carbohydrate.

Isn't a carbohydrate organic matter of the form C[H2O]? Isn't lignin always of the form C[H2O]? It appears that lignin is indeed a carbohydrate. I then looked up the biogeochemist primer on lignin and this is what it reads:

What Is Lignin?

Lignin is a carbohydrate and an irregular, phenolic compound that provides structure and support for plant life. Lignin in plants is found in and between the cell walls of plants, serving to bind cells and lend durability to plant matter. It is a vital, major biological component of all manner of plants, from woody trees to plants with freestanding stems to crunchy vegetables. In fact, it is the second-most-common biological material on the planet (the first being cellulose, which makes up the cell walls that lignin supports). Lignin is a huge source of sequestered carbon, accounting for 30% of all biological carbon, and up to 20% of the dry weight of all woody plants. This also makes it one of the most abundant sources of renewable carbon on Earth.

Lignin is the main component of the fiber in a person's diet. There is lignin in the wood in that person's house. The word "lignin" is a combination of the Latin lignum," which means "wood," and the scientific suffix -in," which denotes a neutral substance. Lignin in wood is probably the most obvious, abundant illustration of the definition of lignin and what that compound does.

Lignin Structure

Is lignin a carbohydrate? Yes, as it's composed of carbon, oxygen and hydrogen. It's also a polymer, creating, huge, irregular branches within the structure of a plant. There are three broad classes of lignins found in different types of plants:

Guaiacyl lignin: soft woods
Gaiacyl-syringyl lignin: hard woods
Graminaceous lignin: grasses and annual plants

So lignin is a carbohydrate that sequesters carbon. That certainly sounds like a biogeochemist take if I've ever heard one. "I'm going to eat some carrots and get my daily dose of sequestered carbon."

.

Lignin chemical formula C3H3O or C3H3O2 not even close to carbohydrate

But at least you figured out that it is found in the cell wall.

Swan wrote:You were done when the doctor congratulated your mother on being the proud mother of a baby boy donkey

Im a BM wrote:
This new paper came out seven days ago.


Y.A. Chung et al. 2023. Mechanistic approach to investigate soil microbe-mediated plant competition. Journal of Ecology (I'll get complete citation later)



This is a review article covering multiple investigations into ways to elucidate the "black box" of soil microorganisms in investigations of nutrient cycling or plant ecology.

It proposes "..extending resource ratio theory to plant-microbe interactions."

Resource ratio theory is focused on how plant compete for resources such as sunlight or soil nitrogen.

My own research was cited in this new paper because it included plant mycorrhizal interactions as a mechanism for monopolizing the nitrogen supply, with significant implications for plant competition and community structure.

I highlight the fact that this very recent paper cited my published research in the hope that sooner or later this will be seen by someone who cares.

Hopefully, this distinguishes me from someone whose only goal is to be a troll.

On the contrary, host-specific decomposers that accelerate loss of nutrients that more limits its competitor's growth should promote exclusion. In an example that promotes exclusion and leads to monodominance, some pines and poplars thrive in N-poor environments where their litter chemistry and decomposer associations continue to promote N losses. This maintains
a favourable environment for these taxa, who are better competitors
for N in such systems (Fierer et al., 2001; Northup et al., 1995).

IBdaMann wrote:

Im a BM wrote:
This new paper came out seven days ago.


Y.A. Chung et al. 2023. Mechanistic approach to investigate soil microbe-mediated plant competition. Journal of Ecology (I'll get complete citation later)



This is a review article covering multiple investigations into ways to elucidate the "black box" of soil microorganisms in investigations of nutrient cycling or plant ecology.

It proposes "..extending resource ratio theory to plant-microbe interactions."

Resource ratio theory is focused on how plant compete for resources such as sunlight or soil nitrogen.

My own research was cited in this new paper because it included plant mycorrhizal interactions as a mechanism for monopolizing the nitrogen supply, with significant implications for plant competition and community structure.

I highlight the fact that this very recent paper cited my published research in the hope that sooner or later this will be seen by someone who cares.

Hopefully, this distinguishes me from someone whose only goal is to be a troll.

I have attached the paper. You and Fierer and unnamed others are cited regarding the monodominance of poplars that thrive in N-poor environments that accelerate nutrient loss in competitors' growth, fostering exclusion:

On the contrary, host-specific decomposers that accelerate loss of nutrients that more limits its competitor's growth should promote exclusion. In an example that promotes exclusion and leads to monodominance, some pines and poplars thrive in N-poor environments where their litter chemistry and decomposer associations continue to promote N losses. This maintains
a favourable environment for these taxa, who are better competitors
for N in such systems (Fierer et al., 2001; Northup et al., 1995).

Into the Night wrote:

Swan wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

Swan wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

Swan wrote:
[quote]Into the Night wrote:
A brief introduction to some of the better known radio services and their propagation path.

Actually Amplitude modulation AM waves and Frequency modulation FM and Very Low Frequency VLF waves all propagate on different paths.
AM is a type of modulation, not a frequency. FM is a type of modulation not a frequency. VLF frequencies follow the land, even going underwater a fair bit. This make them useful for signaling submarines, though the bandwidth is necessarily very limited. Voice can't be used. It's not good enough for audio.

Swan wrote:

CIAO Charlie

Now can we get to secure quantum entangled wireless computational links already, this obsolete stuff is boring the hey out of me. SQEL for short.

Buzzword fallacy.

LOL the fool that is still living in the past does not understand quantum entangled networking, calls cubits a buzzword which makes you qualified to run investigations for the FBI.

130 well verified

Random phrases. No apparent coherency. Attempted insult(?). No argument presented.

LOL you can't even begin to initiate a quantum entangled photon networking conversation so your brain declares entanglement bogus. This is how schizzo minds work

Random phrases. Random buzzwords. No apparent coherency. No argument presented.

sealover wrote:
[quote]sealover wrote:
[quote]Im a BM wrote:
My first publication that is directly relevant to this thread was in 1990.

I hadn't yet finished a master's degree at UC Berkeley.


John G. McColl et. al. 1990. Organics and metal solubility in California forest soils. P. 178-195. IN Gessel, SP, et al. (eds). Sustained Productivity of Forest Soils. Proc. 7th N. American Forest Soils Conference.

In this case, I was merely "allowed" to be on the list of authors.

Note that the term "organics" is in the title.

The paper does not bother to give a definition for this commonly used term.

Scientists don't do that.

The book title "Sustained Productivity of Forest Soils" suggests why a rational adult might agree that it is a subject worthy of pursuit.

It is very gratifying to see all the research that followed, which has enabled farmers to improve soil fertility and foresters to improve productivity.

This particular paper included the NSF-funded research into how acid rain impacted forest soils.

In particular, the low pH of acid rain reduced the solubility of phenol carboxylic acids leaching from the forest floor.

Because the protonation of these organic acids by acid rain reduced the availability of soluble organic anions, it reduced the amount of iron, aluminum, and manganese leaching from the upper mineral soil.

Instead, calcium and magnesium were being mobilized as sulfates or nitrates, which then leached out of the soil. Without acid rain, calcium and magnesium were retained against leaching by the soil's cation exchange capacity (CEC).

Sooner or later, someone who is genuinely interested in this thread topic might take interest.

sealover wrote:
[quote]sealover wrote:
[quote]Im a BM wrote:
My first publication that is directly relevant to this thread was in 1990.

I hadn't yet finished a master's degree at UC Berkeley.


John G. McColl et. al. 1990. Organics and metal solubility in California forest soils. P. 178-195. IN Gessel, SP, et al. (eds). Sustained Productivity of Forest Soils. Proc. 7th N. American Forest Soils Conference.

In this case, I was merely "allowed" to be on the list of authors.

Note that the term "organics" is in the title.

The paper does not bother to give a definition for this commonly used term.

Scientists don't do that.

The book title "Sustained Productivity of Forest Soils" suggests why a rational adult might agree that it is a subject worthy of pursuit.

It is very gratifying to see all the research that followed, which has enabled farmers to improve soil fertility and foresters to improve productivity.

This particular paper included the NSF-funded research into how acid rain impacted forest soils.

In particular, the low pH of acid rain reduced the solubility of phenol carboxylic acids leaching from the forest floor.

Because the protonation of these organic acids by acid rain reduced the availability of soluble organic anions, it reduced the amount of iron, aluminum, and manganese leaching from the upper mineral soil.

Instead, calcium and magnesium were being mobilized as sulfates or nitrates, which then leached out of the soil. Without acid rain, calcium and magnesium were retained against leaching by the soil's cation exchange capacity (CEC).

Sooner or later, someone who is genuinely interested in this thread topic might take interest.

Swan wrote:

sealover wrote:

Swan wrote:

sealover wrote:

sealover wrote:

Im a BM wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:
[quote]Im a BM wrote:This paper, which refers to "organic carbon" in the title, came out earlier this year.

Meisam Nazari et al. 2023. Keeping thinning-derived deadwood logs on forest floor improves soil organic carbon, microbial biomass, and enzyme activity in a temperate spruce forest. European Journal of Forest Research. Volume 142. Pages 287-300.

Does it have the same effect in other-than-spruce forests, or forests that are not temperate?

Im a BM wrote:
[quote](Northup et al. 1998;Thomas and Hargrove 1984).
Northup RR, Dahlgren RA, McColl JG (1998) Polyphenols as regulators of plantlitter-soil interactions in northern California's
pygmy forest: a positive feedback? Biogeochemistry 42:189–220.

Yeah, they cited me.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The effect is consistent with what is seen throughout the world on podzol soils.

In this case, what is growing on the podzol happens to be spruce.

Podzols can be found from the equator to Siberia. Indeed, the term "podzol" is from the early Russian soil scientists.

Podzols form under humid conditions when the soil parent material is of very high silica content. Metal complexing organic acids leaching out of the forest floor strip away what little aluminum, iron, and manganese was present in the uppermost part of the mineral soil. This leaves behind an acidified white sand layer of nearly pure quartz. Roots don't even try to get nutrients from this layer.

Podzols are very vulnerable to poor management. For example, when subjected to slash and burn agriculture, they rapidly diminish in productivity, as they rapidly lose the organic carbon from the soil. It is difficult to restore productivity after the soil nutrients, which were scarce in the first place, are lost along with the organic carbon.

By leaving the slash from tree thinning operations on the soil surface, they dramatically improved retention of organic carbon and associated nutrients in the underlying soil.

On what planet does this happen? What is a metal organic acid, aside from the Fantastic planet meaning that is.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The term "metal organic acid" is new to me. I don't believe they exist.

A metal COMPLEXING organic acid is another story.

Metal complexing organic acids, often called "chelating agents", play a very important role in human physiology as well as in the biogeochemistry of soils.

When the organic acid is deprotonated (dissociated into hydrogen ion and organic anion), it can form an ionic or covalent bond with a metal cation.

Without metal complexing organic acids to chelate iron, the concentration of bioavailable iron in sea water would be too low to support much photosynthesis.

Without metal complexing organic acids, such as vitamin C (ascorbic acid), to chelate iron, our bodies could not absorb any iron from the food we eat.

Without metal complexing organic acids, such as the phenol carboxylic acids in polyphenols, the iron, aluminum, and manganese in Podzol (Spodosol) soils would not be transported downward into deeper soil layers as it is stripped away from the uppermost layer, leaving behind acidified white sand.

If you have dyslexia, as I do, I can empathize with the error of thinking that you read "metal organic acid" when the text said "metal complexing organic acid."

Is this jr high school chemistry? Why are you not more concerned with the mathematical impossibility of the existence of the universe without 85% more mass and energy? Or could sulfur consuming microbes be related to methane consuming life on Titan or Europa for example. Or more important yet how did life which is a molecular computer program begin, and did it begin on the Earth, and how would Earth life adapt to Mars? Or do you just believe what Darwin who never saw DNA babbled because you were told to believe or fail? See I have no such restrictions and yes sir no sir ass-holes like you are just jealous

PS. What is the most perfect example of a full mental retard?

Answer, a person with a 150 plus IQ who chooses to sit on top of millions of tons of TNT and blast off.

sealover wrote:
[quote]Im a BM wrote:
There is a tiny chance that someone other than an Internet troll will read this.

Carbon sequestration and nitrogen cycling are very important regarding climate change.

Polyphenols and lignin are very important regarding carbon sequestration and nitrogen cycling.

My most famous scientific paper was published in the journal Nature, in 1995.

It has been cited in 765 different peer-reviewed scientific papers and textbooks.

It includes lignin research and proves that lignin is NOT the most important regulator of nitrogen cycling.

The paper: Polyphenol control of nitrogen release from pine litter.
1995. Nature. Volume 377. Pages 227-229.

Quoting from Figure 2 - "...and lignin was measured by the acid detergent method (reference #30). Regressions of these parameters versus the ratio of DON:mineral nitrogen were as follows: Condensed tannins (r2 = 0.99, p = <0.001), total phenolics (r2 = 0.90, p = <0.001), C:N ratio (r2 = 0.76, p = <0.001), and lignin (not significant)."


In the pine litter samples studied, lignin ranged from 20-40%. But release of mineral nitrogen was not significantly correlated to lignin. However, it was highly significantly correlated to condensed tannin and total phenolic content.

Scientists in the real world who know what lignin is and study it took this very seriously.

It has been known for more than a century that lignin can form strong complexes with protein. These ligno protein complexes are very difficult for microorganisms to degrade. Release of mineral nitrogen from them is slow.

Lignin can also form strong complexes with carbohydrates. These lignin-carbohydrate complexes are a common component of cell walls, where all the lignin is found.

The acid detergent method separates all carbohydrates from lignin-carbohydrate complexes, dissolving the saccharide and leaving behind the lignin as insoluble residue.

Note: for a one-word unambiguous definition of carbohydrate, use "saccharide".

All carbohydrates are saccharides, and all saccharides are carbohydrates.

Mono saccharides include glucose and fructose.

Di saccharides include sucrose (glucose + fructose) and lactose (glucose + galactose).

Oligosaccharides include starch and cellulose, as well as hemi celluloses.

All saccharides dissolve in acid detergent. Lignin is not a carbohydrate.

For decades ecologists had debated whether or not carbon:nitrogen ratio or lignin was a better predictor for nitrogen release from decomposing organic matter.

My 1995 paper in Nature blew it wide open.

It is still possible someone that will join the website who wants to discuss this kind of real world science as it applies to climate change.

Im a BM wrote:Yes, I envy you. You are everything that I wish I could have been.

Im a BM wrote:

sealover wrote:
[quote]Im a BM wrote:
There is a tiny chance that someone other than an Internet troll will read this.

Carbon sequestration and nitrogen cycling are very important regarding climate change.

Polyphenols and lignin are very important regarding carbon sequestration and nitrogen cycling.

My most famous scientific paper was published in the journal Nature, in 1995.

It has been cited in 765 different peer-reviewed scientific papers and textbooks.

It includes lignin research and proves that lignin is NOT the most important regulator of nitrogen cycling.

The paper: Polyphenol control of nitrogen release from pine litter.
1995. Nature. Volume 377. Pages 227-229.

Quoting from Figure 2 - "...and lignin was measured by the acid detergent method (reference #30). Regressions of these parameters versus the ratio of DON:mineral nitrogen were as follows: Condensed tannins (r2 = 0.99, p = <0.001), total phenolics (r2 = 0.90, p = <0.001), C:N ratio (r2 = 0.76, p = <0.001), and lignin (not significant)."


In the pine litter samples studied, lignin ranged from 20-40%. But release of mineral nitrogen was not significantly correlated to lignin. However, it was highly significantly correlated to condensed tannin and total phenolic content.

Scientists in the real world who know what lignin is and study it took this very seriously.

It has been known for more than a century that lignin can form strong complexes with protein. These ligno protein complexes are very difficult for microorganisms to degrade. Release of mineral nitrogen from them is slow.

Lignin can also form strong complexes with carbohydrates. These lignin-carbohydrate complexes are a common component of cell walls, where all the lignin is found.

The acid detergent method separates all carbohydrates from lignin-carbohydrate complexes, dissolving the saccharide and leaving behind the lignin as insoluble residue.

Note: for a one-word unambiguous definition of carbohydrate, use "saccharide".

All carbohydrates are saccharides, and all saccharides are carbohydrates.

Mono saccharides include glucose and fructose.

Di saccharides include sucrose (glucose + fructose) and lactose (glucose + galactose).

Oligosaccharides include starch and cellulose, as well as hemi celluloses.

All saccharides dissolve in acid detergent. Lignin is not a carbohydrate.

For decades ecologists had debated whether or not carbon:nitrogen ratio or lignin was a better predictor for nitrogen release from decomposing organic matter.

My 1995 paper in Nature blew it wide open.

It is still possible someone that will join the website who wants to discuss this kind of real world science as it applies to climate change.

It is ironic that those who didn't have what it takes to even complete an undergraduate degree in science think they know how to criticize the accomplishments of actual scientists.

Let's pretend that this was my ONLY famous paper. It does account for nearly half of my citations.

But let's say it was just a one hit wonder, taking credit for the work of others.

There is much more to be proud of as a scientific has been than a scientific nobody who never was and never will be.