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immunity and organ damage



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immunity and organ damage13-07-2020 17:36
keepit
★★★★☆
(1765)
2 things are most important to the future of covid19.
1 - How long does immunity last? We don't know. It hasn't been around that long. If corona virus 19 is like the corona virus that gives us the cold - well, we all know how long that immunity lasts. I've heard speculation about covid19 being 3 months to 1 year but who knows really. Wait a few months and see how many reinfections occur. We've already heard of a few.
2 - How much organ damage occurs to both symptomatic and asymptomatic patients. There have been reports of kidney damage, neurologic damage, blood vessel damage and others, not to mention lung damage. We need more info on that. Patients that survive don't generally get an autopsy. Noone is doing brain biopsies and kidney biopsies to any great extent.

Fear mongering. Stop fear mongering about fear mongering. These have been legitimate questions about health concerns.
Edited on 13-07-2020 17:38
13-07-2020 18:03
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1331)
keepit wrote:
2 things are most important to the future of covid19.
1 - How long does immunity last? We don't know. It hasn't been around that long. If corona virus 19 is like the corona virus that gives us the cold - well, we all know how long that immunity lasts. I've heard speculation about covid19 being 3 months to 1 year but who knows really. Wait a few months and see how many reinfections occur. We've already heard of a few.
2 - How much organ damage occurs to both symptomatic and asymptomatic patients. There have been reports of kidney damage, neurologic damage, blood vessel damage and others, not to mention lung damage. We need more info on that. Patients that survive don't generally get an autopsy. Noone is doing brain biopsies and kidney biopsies to any great extent.

Fear mongering. Stop fear mongering about fear mongering. These have been legitimate questions about health concerns.

There is no "the coronavirus" that gives us what we refer to as the "common cold". We've already been through the organ damage fear mongering...
13-07-2020 18:03
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7581)
keepit, you ask a load of stupid questions.

keepit wrote:2 things are most important to the future of covid19.

I think people care about their own futures, not the future of the coronoaflu.

keepit wrote:1 - How long does immunity last?

It's not immunity. It's greatly heightened resistance to a particular (set of) strain(s).

keepit wrote: We don't know. It hasn't been around that long.

It doesn't matter how long it has been around. A person's resistance to a strain depends on the person, not on how long the strain has been around.

keepit wrote: I've heard speculation about covid19 being 3 months to 1 year but who knows really.

It's speculation that you heard. It must be true.

keepit wrote: Wait a few months and see how many reinfections occur.

I see, our omniscience will tell us this. Great plan.

keepit wrote: We've already heard of a few.

Nope. We haven't had any.

keepit wrote: 2 - How much organ damage occurs to both symptomatic and asymptomatic patients.

Right now we are operating on "zero" organ damage.

keepit wrote: There have been reports of kidney damage, neurologic damage, blood vessel damage and others, not to mention lung damage.

I imagine that all of these things are what actually killed the people who died from those things while simultaneously claiming to have flu symptoms.

keepit wrote: We need more info on that.

We can never get enough of that good ol' time hyped-up misinformation.

keepit wrote: Patients that survive don't generally get an autopsy.

I feel sorry for those who do. How many people survive the autopsy?


keepit wrote:Fear mongering. Stop fear mongering about fear mongering.

How about you just stop fear-mongering? Do you really think anyone enjoys listening to your self-centered whining?


keepit wrote: These have been legitimate questions about health concerns.

Nope. You unwillingness to listen to rational answers is what makes your whole schtick illegitimate.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
13-07-2020 22:11
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1331)
Since keepit is taking his own sweet time with Step 3...


keepit: gfm/IBD,

Is semantics all that you guys have?
14-07-2020 00:07
keepit
★★★★☆
(1765)
IBD, gfm, ITN,
Here's a challenge for you.
Can you point out a single statement in a single post that i have posted since i've been on this site that is not a true fact?
14-07-2020 02:31
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7581)
keepit wrote:
IBD, gfm, ITN,
Here's a challenge for you.
Can you point out a single statement in a single post that i have posted since i've been on this site that is not a true fact?


Can you point to a single instance of your correct usage of the word "fact"?

[hint: your usage here is incorrect as well]

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
14-07-2020 02:46
James___
★★★★★
(3451)
keepit wrote:
IBD, gfm, ITN,
Here's a challenge for you.
Can you point out a single statement in a single post that i have posted since i've been on this site that is not a true fact?



I won't bother going into facts. Butt ITN said that his "she said " caught on fire and that IBDM said that it was his "sheep shed". So if IBDM had his "shed" catch on fire and ITN put out his "she said" fire with IBNM banging away at it from the blindside. What really was on fire?
I mean what was "on fire" and "whose fire" was it? You have me confused. I can understand if ITN and IBDM don't want to talk about their personal relationship butt is this the right place to talk about it?
Matthew 7:1
"Judge not, that ye be not judged."

I think that they are blessed by our Lord Jesus for having found love.
And Matthew 6:13. Why I am not envious by wanting either one;
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.'

FYI, they found love. And when they did, I am not tempted. As a sinner, I desire and pursue a different love. The Bible allows for this.
Edited on 14-07-2020 02:53
14-07-2020 04:46
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2727)
keepit wrote:
2 things are most important to the future of covid19.
1 - How long does immunity last? We don't know. It hasn't been around that long. If corona virus 19 is like the corona virus that gives us the cold - well, we all know how long that immunity lasts. I've heard speculation about covid19 being 3 months to 1 year but who knows really. Wait a few months and see how many reinfections occur. We've already heard of a few.
2 - How much organ damage occurs to both symptomatic and asymptomatic patients. There have been reports of kidney damage, neurologic damage, blood vessel damage and others, not to mention lung damage. We need more info on that. Patients that survive don't generally get an autopsy. Noone is doing brain biopsies and kidney biopsies to any great extent.

Fear mongering. Stop fear mongering about fear mongering. These have been legitimate questions about health concerns.


Why the panic? You only have to hide in your basement for another 6 or 7 months, and there should be a vaccine. You're old, high-risk, should be high on the list. Unfortunately, there will only be 100 million doses, if all goes well, and some other country doesn't offer more money. Sometimes 'spending less', isn't a good thing. Of course, with over 350 million people in America, 100 million doses will run out fast. The rich, famous, influential, political will get top priority, as will their family and friends, people they work with... A decrepit old man on Social Security, and nothing to offer, only has a slight chance of getting in on that first batch. You can have my dose, as I'm not the lab-rat type, and that first batch is going to be highly experimental. It's the same vaccine, they are giving the test subjects, in the current studies for approval. It's the first rush-job vaccine ever, so no telling how that will go. Fortunately, I don't see any medical reason why I can't just get my immunity, naturally. It's just a cold virus...

We are 6 months into a pandemic. The virus is new, and no way of knowing the long term effects, if any. Those studies literally take years, and a lot of work. We haven't had the time, or resources to do any in depth studies, the focus is on control and treatment. Labs are all dedicated to basically useless testing. Old people accumulate a long list of organ and tissue damage. It's just part of living, and growing old. Most of the Covid-19 fatalities were already F.B.R., and didn't need much to finish the job. A simple respiratory infection, and having a tube shoved down their throat, was a little more than they could survive.

The test kits they are running, aren't perfect to begin with, and the sheer volume, introduces errors. Not all the 'positive' results, are going to be accurate, they will error on the side of caution everytime something goes wrong, or the test results inconclusive. It's better to presume positive, and let the individual self-quarantine, or get to a doctor, if symptoms or extreme. A false positive, might also be what's being labeled asymptomatic.

All medical conditions, other viruses, didn't just stop, because we have a pandemic going on. People still having the usual strokes, heart attacks, cancers, and everything else. It's common to have several medical problems in many people. It's also not unusual to be infected by more than on virus, or bacteria, at the same time. It's a complex world, most people only focus on one issue at a time, specially, if they spend much of their time, hiding in the basement, worrying about spending less.
14-07-2020 09:49
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13867)
keepit wrote:
IBD, gfm, ITN,
Here's a challenge for you.
Can you point out a single statement in a single post that i have posted since i've been on this site that is not a true fact?


There is no True or False to a fact. I can't recall any of your posts where you did not try to distort science, mathematics, logic, history, or what the conversation happened to be about.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Edited on 14-07-2020 09:49
14-07-2020 17:20
keepit
★★★★☆
(1765)
I do remember an arithmetic error that i made where i either added or deleted a zero. That's the only misinformation i can remember.

ITN,
Could you be specific about the claim you just mad about my veracity and give evidence?
14-07-2020 18:26
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1331)
keepit wrote:
IBD, gfm, ITN,
Here's a challenge for you.
Can you point out a single statement in a single post that i have posted since i've been on this site that is not a true fact?

Mantras 10c, 29...
14-07-2020 18:36
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1331)
James___ wrote:
Matthew 7:1
"Judge not, that ye be not judged."

In my walk as a Christian, this has got to be one of the most (if not the most) misquoted/misapplied scriptures in the Bible...

James___ wrote:
I think that they are blessed by our Lord Jesus for having found love.
And Matthew 6:13. Why I am not envious by wanting either one;
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.'

FYI, they found love. And when they did, I am not tempted. As a sinner, I desire and pursue a different love. The Bible allows for this.

No idea what you're trying to say here.
14-07-2020 18:38
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1331)
keepit wrote:
I do remember an arithmetic error that i made where i either added or deleted a zero. That's the only misinformation i can remember.

ITN,
Could you be specific about the claim you just mad about my veracity and give evidence?

This has already been done.
14-07-2020 21:31
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13867)
keepit wrote:
I do remember an arithmetic error that i made where i either added or deleted a zero. That's the only misinformation i can remember.

ITN,
Could you be specific about the claim you just mad about my veracity and give evidence?


RQAA.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
14-07-2020 21:41
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7581)
keepit wrote: IBD, gfm, ITN, Here's a challenge for you.
Can you point out a single statement in a single post that i have posted since i've been on this site that is not a true fact?

Can I take the opportunity to point out one of my favorite keepitisms? I put it in my signature. You claim that printing dollars doesn't increase the number of dollars! Too funny! That is classic. Few can match that level of comedy.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
14-07-2020 22:23
keepit
★★★★☆
(1765)
IBD,
As i remember that post, i said, "printing dollars to replace treasuries doesn't increase the number of dollars out there," or some such quote.
If you read a book on economics i think you'll have a better understanding of what i said.
Think of it as refinancing. Or a rollover.
Edited on 14-07-2020 22:41
14-07-2020 22:59
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13867)
keepit wrote:
IBD,
As i remember that post, i said, "printing dollars to replace treasuries doesn't increase the number of dollars out there," or some such quote.
If you read a book on economics i think you'll have a better understanding of what i said.
Think of it as refinancing. Or a rollover.


You deny economics.

Printing dollars (raising M1) increases the number of dollars in circulation.
Treasuries are not dollars. Paying them with dollars that are worth less than when the bond was taken out is a rip off.

Paying a bond is not a rollover.

You obviously have no clue what money is, what a bond is, or who controls the economy. Neither do you understand what capitalism is and what socialism is.

You don't understand any of it, though it has been explained to you several times.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Edited on 14-07-2020 23:07
14-07-2020 23:15
keepit
★★★★☆
(1765)
ITN,
Focusing on M1 is giving you an overly narrow view of refinancing and rollover.
Not paying a bond is much more of a ripoff than printing dollars to be sent out to an global economy that is (was) expanding and can (could) easily absorb the dollars without much inflation (by the way, there has been very little inflation for a long time). A 2% inflation rate is the goal from the fed's point of view.
We definitely don't want to default on our debt obligations which is something that the fed and treasury is guarding against (and doing a good job of it).
The word rollover is a figure of speech here. You are taking it too literally.

Your fear mongering about inflation is ridiculous. Look at a chart of dollar inflation over the last 10 years. Get real.
Edited on 14-07-2020 23:35
15-07-2020 01:26
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2727)
gfm7175 wrote:
James___ wrote:
Matthew 7:1
"Judge not, that ye be not judged."

In my walk as a Christian, this has got to be one of the most (if not the most) misquoted/misapplied scriptures in the Bible...

James___ wrote:
I think that they are blessed by our Lord Jesus for having found love.
And Matthew 6:13. Why I am not envious by wanting either one;
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.'

FYI, they found love. And when they did, I am not tempted. As a sinner, I desire and pursue a different love. The Bible allows for this.

No idea what you're trying to say here.


Half bottle of Wild Turkey will help you 'translate'...
15-07-2020 01:52
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2727)
What evidence is there, that everyone who is infected with Covid-19, suffers the same organ and tissue damage? Pretty sure no one that survived the ICU, submitted to tissue samples. Have to be pretty much mentally defective, to have mild to no symptoms, and agree to invasive surgery, during a 'deadly plague' out of the Book of Revelations, for research samples.

The tissue samples came from people died in the ICU, 90+% of which were a medical mess, before getting infected. Do you see the problem claiming what is Covid-19 related damage, treatment related damage, and what's been wrong with the deceased, for likely decades? It's only been 6 months, they can speculate on some frequent observations, but there is no way they are going to isolate them for years. Just too many variables, and alternate reasons for the findings. Of course, science no longer matters, and no reason to do the work anymore. We have computer simulations, and besides, it was likely Covid-19 that put them in the ICU, so they can simply use that as the cause of death, and anything else they want.

A trip through the ICU is a rough course of treatment, for any reason. They use the most extreme treatments to save your life, regardless of the side effects. They'll do anything and everything possible, even experimental stuff, to save your life. They do nothing, and you will likely die anyway.
15-07-2020 02:11
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7581)
keepit wrote:
IBD,
As i remember that post, i said, "printing dollars to replace treasuries doesn't increase the number of dollars out there," or some such quote.
If you read a book on economics i think you'll have a better understanding of what i said.
Think of it as refinancing. Or a rollover.


I have already explained this to you twice. If you print a dollar, you have one more dollar, i.e. the number of dollars has increased by one. It does not matter that the dollar is used to pay a debt; now the debtholder has that dollar. The dollar still exists.

Think of dollars as money that you can spend. When you spend them, they don't vanish from existence;; someone else has them.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
15-07-2020 02:56
keepit
★★★★☆
(1765)
IBD,
Did you forget that if you print one more dollar to pay a treasury bill or bond, or note, you have one more dollar in existence but you have one less dollar of debt that the treasury will have to pay back..
Edited on 15-07-2020 02:57
15-07-2020 08:51
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7581)
keepit wrote: IBD, Did you forget that if you print one more dollar to pay a treasury bill or bond, or note, you have one more dollar in existence but you have one less dollar of debt that the treasury will have to pay back..

keepit, did you forget that the amount of debt does not affect the amount of dollars? Only the creation and destruction of dollars determines the number of dollars that exist.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
15-07-2020 09:48
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13867)
keepit wrote:
ITN,
Focusing on M1 is giving you an overly narrow view of refinancing and rollover.

I'm not focusing on M1. YOU are. Inversion fallacy.
keepit wrote:
Not paying a bond is much more of a ripoff than printing dollars to be sent out to an global economy that is (was) expanding and can (could) easily absorb the dollars without much inflation (by the way, there has been very little inflation for a long time). A 2% inflation rate is the goal from the fed's point of view.

Paying with dollars that are worth less is a ripoff. Inflation is a ripoff.
keepit wrote:
We definitely don't want to default on our debt obligations which is something that the fed and treasury is guarding against (and doing a good job of it).

They are not defaulting. No one said they were. They are paying bonds with dollars that are worth less than when the bond was issued.
keepit wrote:
The word rollover is a figure of speech here.

No, it has a definite meaning. Semantics fallacy.
keepit wrote:
You are taking it too literally.

Semantics fallacy. You don't get to undefine 'rollover'.
keepit wrote:
Your fear mongering about inflation is ridiculous.

I'm not fear mongering. YOU are. Inversion fallacy.
keepit wrote:
Look at a chart of dollar inflation over the last 10 years. Get real.

Define 'real'. Why is the a point in time 10 years ago significant? Why is any other point in time NOT significant?


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
15-07-2020 09:49
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13867)
keepit wrote:
IBD,
Did you forget that if you print one more dollar to pay a treasury bill or bond, or note, you have one more dollar in existence but you have one less dollar of debt that the treasury will have to pay back..


The treasury will have to pay back the entire principle of the bond, plus it's accumulated interest. It will have to pay back every single dollar, and then some.

Printing a dollar does not change that.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
15-07-2020 18:45
keepit
★★★★☆
(1765)
Last i checked treasuries are dollars.
You're the one that brought up M1 ITN.
The american economic system is run with a goal of 2% inflation. We all live with it.
Like many words, the word rollover has several definite meanings. I get to choose the particular meaning of the words i'm using at the time..
I'm not undefining rollover, i'm using it as a figure of speech. Something that throws you off almost every time.
I'm not fear mongering about inflation ITN. You are. I like a little inflation.
In order to pay back a treasury either money has to be printed or a new treasury has to be printed. I'd rather print a dollar and be done with it.
15-07-2020 20:20
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2727)
You can print as many dollars as you want. The number doesn't really matter, since it will always come down to what value each bill holds. Goods and services, are worth, only how many bills a person is willing to part with, to obtain. The number of bills are usually limited, because at some point, people figure that it a better value, to skip buying a roll of toilet paper, and just use the dollars directly. Sort of spending less, and getting similar value...
15-07-2020 23:06
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13867)
keepit wrote:
Last i checked treasuries are dollars.

Nope. Treasuries are not cash. Their units are in dollars, but they are not actual dollars.
keepit wrote:
You're the one that brought up M1 ITN.

Lie. YOU did. YOU are the one talking about 'printing money'. That is raising M1.
keepit wrote:
The american economic system is run with a goal of 2% inflation. We all live with it.

'american' is a proper noun. It is capitalized. You have already been corrected on this.
Inflation is a ripoff.
keepit wrote:
Like many words, the word rollover has several definite meanings. I get to choose the particular meaning of the words i'm using at the time..

You don't get to use it as a buzzword.
keepit wrote:
I'm not undefining rollover, i'm using it as a figure of speech.

Paradox. Which is it, dude?
keepit wrote:
Something that throws you off almost every time.

Which is it, dude?
keepit wrote:
I'm not fear mongering about inflation ITN. You are.

Lie.
keepit wrote:
I like a little inflation.
[/quote]
You're an idiot. Why don't you just use Monopoly money to begin with and be done with it?
keepit wrote:
In order to pay back a treasury either money has to be printed or a new treasury has to be printed. I'd rather print a dollar and be done with it.

WRONG. No money needs to be 'printed' (which is raising M1) to pay off a treasury note. No treasury note needs to be issued to pay off a treasury note. Indeed, that's a BAD idea. Printing money (raising M1) to pay off a treasury note is also a BAD idea.

There are three ways for the federal government to raise money (other governments, such as State governments, have only two).

It can issue a bond (a treasury note), and try to sell it to anyone willing to invest in that government. They expect to be paid for their investment, so every bond carries an interest rate, which varies with that market at issuance. This is borrowing the money.

Like living on a credit card, there is only so much a government can borrow without being able to pay it back. Failure to pay a debt results in a debt crash.

It can tax for the money. This has limits, of course, as the populace will eventually reach a point of tax revolt, possibly becoming violent. One tax often not considered a tax is the Fed's M2 value (discount interest rate), which the Fed uses to try to 'control' the economy (it doesn't). Taxes that are too high can cause a tax crash.

It can 'print' the money (only the federal government can do this, and it does this by raising M1). This means more dollars are floating around. There are more dollars. There is a limit to this too, which is nonzero, since wealth is being created through the process of capitalism.

If more money is printed than the wealth being created, you have inflation. If less money is printed than wealth being created, you have deflation. Neither inflation nor deflation are related to depressions, markets themselves, recessions, etc. Right now, more money is being 'printed' than wealth being generated...inflation. If inflation gets too high or goes on long enough, you get a cash crash.

In the case of bonds, you have the same number of bonds, but now you have more dollars, and they are generally worth less than when the bond was issued. This means the wealth that went into investing the bond is now less. A ripoff. This is why living on tick in this way for the federal government is hurting the economy. See the national debt clock for details. It is no different than private debt owed by individuals and corporations.

The Federal government is broke. Their limits on issuing bonds is curtailed as trust in getting your invested wealth back wanes. Their ability to simply raise M1 is curtailed since worthless dollars will simply get rejected by the populace. The government can't stop that. Already people are looking for another currency. Popular investigations right now seem to be centering around gold (and silver), Bitcoin, or SDRs (currently falling in popularity of choice).

Already some places accept Bitcoin as payment. More people accept gold or silver as payment. There are a few smaller towns where gold and silver are the only accepted forms of payment. There is one nation on a gold standard right now, forced there by economic sanctions from the United States. Other nations are stockpiling gold, including China, Russia, and even Germany.

It still remains to be seen which currency might eventually win out. They days of fiat currency, however, are quite possibly coming to an end. This affects not only the United States, but also worldwide trade, since practically every nation is currently on fiat currency. Every one of them are in the same situation. They owe too much. They can't pay off their debts as easily as they used to. The temptation is simply printing more and more of it to cover government expenses that are not sustainable. That itself is not sustainable, as it will lead to rejection of a fiat currency. This time, however, it can easily go worldwide in a very short space of time.

It's a race to the bottom. Who will get there first?

Note that the world has never been here before. It is completely uncharted waters. Could it result in a WW3? That is unknown, but a definite possibility. It may result in a worldwide war of neighbor against neighbor as well, like a woldwide 'civil war'. It is completely unknown where this path will lead...but it isn't pretty.

When people choose a currency over another, there is NOTHING any government can do about it.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Edited on 15-07-2020 23:07
16-07-2020 00:00
keepit
★★★★☆
(1765)
Well ITN, You make a lot of interesting points and things are unpredictable i agree. The dollar is still king and the us hasn't defaulted yet though. It is the most widely accepted currency. I don't buy into the whole fiat fear mongering thing though.

For a guy that complains about fear mongering you sure do a lot of fear mongering.

I didn't quite follow you about your thought that printing dollars is worse than printing new treasuries. I hope you've now learned to understand the word "treasuries".
16-07-2020 00:17
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2727)
Do to massive Covid-19 lung and organ damage, currency will quickly be eliminated, and only touch-free transactions will be accepted. Many people 65+ will either die from Covid-19, or one of the experimental vaccines or treatments, in order to cut the cost of 'medicare for all', and Social Security payments. Not to mention, a whole lot of wealth is tied up in retirement plans, which the government is entitled to quite a share, when cashed in, as well as an inheritance taxes. The price of spending less, and saving more for Joe's socialist party.
16-07-2020 00:22
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1331)
keepit wrote:
Well ITN, You make a lot of interesting points and things are unpredictable i agree. The dollar is still king and the us hasn't defaulted yet though. It is the most widely accepted currency. I don't buy into the whole fiat fear mongering thing though.

What ITN is talking about is far from fear mongering. It is basic economics. Apparently you slept through that class in school??

keepit wrote:
For a guy that complains about fear mongering you sure do a lot of fear mongering.

He explained basic economics to you. Economics is not fear mongering.

keepit wrote:
I didn't quite follow you about your thought that printing dollars is worse than printing new treasuries. I hope you've now learned to understand the word "treasuries".

Inversion Fallacy.
RQAA.
16-07-2020 00:25
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13867)
keepit wrote:
Well ITN, You make a lot of interesting points and things are unpredictable i agree. The dollar is still king and the us hasn't defaulted yet though.

Not yet. Probably won't happen for another four years or so. But the U.S. is not immune.
keepit wrote:
It is the most widely accepted currency.

Not true. If you trade with Europe, you must pay in Euros. If you trade with China, you must pay in Yuan. True, some companies in these places will accept dollars, and perform the conversions themselves, for a fee, but those dollars come back home to the U.S.
keepit wrote:
I don't buy into the whole fiat fear mongering thing though.

I'm not fear mongering. I'm simply describing what is. If you don't want to prepare for it, fine. Don't prepare for it. This is your decision. You are free to make it. You are not free of the consequences of a decision though.
keepit wrote:
For a guy that complains about fear mongering you sure do a lot of fear mongering.

Not selling anything. Not even fear.
keepit wrote:
I didn't quite follow you about your thought that printing dollars is worse than printing new treasuries.

It isn't. Never said it was.
keepit wrote:
I hope you've now learned to understand the word "treasuries".

Far better than you do.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
16-07-2020 00:32
keepit
★★★★☆
(1765)
ITN,
There are so many errors in your last 2 posts that i just can't address them.
16-07-2020 00:56
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1331)
keepit wrote:
ITN,
There are so many errors in your last 2 posts that i just can't address them.

Cop out.
16-07-2020 01:16
keepit
★★★★☆
(1765)
gfm,
I suppose you could say that. Laziness has always bee a problem.
16-07-2020 01:38
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(331)
Money is simply a piece of paper that has no inherent value. Natural resources like oil, coal etc on the other hand are valuable and without those the situation would get out of hands very quickly. Also, the poorest of the poor in America are quit rich compared to people in Estonia. Our average wage is about 1500 dollars( brutto) which is a very good salary here. Most people earn much less.
16-07-2020 01:43
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13867)
gfm7175 wrote:
keepit wrote:
Well ITN, You make a lot of interesting points and things are unpredictable i agree. The dollar is still king and the us hasn't defaulted yet though. It is the most widely accepted currency. I don't buy into the whole fiat fear mongering thing though.

What ITN is talking about is far from fear mongering. It is basic economics. Apparently you slept through that class in school??

keepit wrote:
For a guy that complains about fear mongering you sure do a lot of fear mongering.

He explained basic economics to you. Economics is not fear mongering.

keepit wrote:
I didn't quite follow you about your thought that printing dollars is worse than printing new treasuries. I hope you've now learned to understand the word "treasuries".

Inversion Fallacy.
RQAA.


Quite right. Like anything, even such drastic changes in currencies need not stoke fear. You can prepare for it.

Those who do not prepare for any future are most surprised by it and will suffer the most, particularly those dependent on government handouts. Those could disappear without notice very quickly.

The basis of any economic system is wealth. Money is not wealth. It's value is solely determined by its ability to trade wealth for wealth (essentially just a medium of barter), and it's ability to act as a unit of account (you can set a price on something).

So...what is wealth?

It is simply those things that help you survive and lead the life you choose. It is the computer on the desk. It is the property you live in. It is the food you buy. It is the car or truck you drive. It is the TV set. It can even be dirt, if the dirt is useful in some way (such as washed gravel for driveways). It is the steel, iron, copper, plastics, aluminum, lithium, and all other ores we mine and smelt.

The difference between the amount of iron ore and carbon, the steel you make from it, the additives to make that stainless steel, and the forming of that steel into fine sewing needles carries a vast difference in price. What's the difference? It's the same materials. The difference is the labor and equipment.

Labor can be considered a form of wealth. You have to pay for all of that wealth though, so it's a wash.

Equipment can be invented, used, and used again. It can be repaired and maintained for a very long time, and it will still function as intended. That is wealth creation, when you create such a piece of equipment.

So wealth can be created literally out of nothing but innovation and the drive to create it. You can create it by growing a crop, creating a piece of equipment, or even crushing, washing, and sorting rocks by size and type.

Building a road is creating wealth. Building a house is creating wealth. Building a truck is creating wealth. Raising a crop is creating wealth. Raising cattle, chickens, pigs, goats, sheep, or anything else that is useful is creating wealth. Making clothing is creating wealth.

Gold and silver and also wealth, because they are useful materials in industry. They can be more, however. They can be used as money...a representation of wealth beyond the value of the gold or silver in industry. Gold in particular is useful as money because the purity and weight of gold is easily checked using simple means, available to anyone. But that is not wealth...only the representation of wealth at that point.

Money can be anything. Gold, clam shells, pretty rocks, pieces of paper, bits in a computer, anything. It's only purpose is to represent wealth (giving it value as a currency), and to establish a unit of account (you can set a price with it). It is simply a medium of barter. It's easier than trading chickens for a computer.

Regardless of what is used for money, modern banking systems are not affected by it. Any currency can work with modern banking systems, including lines of credit, batch and one time loans, stock and commodity markets, derivatives, interest rates, and any function of markets and marketing.

in the United States, the Constitutions specifies the use of gold and silver as money. As it was in Germany, with the use of tahlers, a dollar is a unit of weight...in this case the weight of a fixed amount of gold, 9/10ths pure (approx 22 karat gold). The word 'dollar' stems from 'tahler'.

In 1934, FDR confiscated (stole) all the gold held by private interests and forced the introduction of fiat money. In return, the central bank could essentially issue a check to the federal government for any amount it wanted at any time. Essentially making money out of thin air.

Other nations followed suit, as each was in danger of going bankrupt due to WW1 expenses.
Because of these debts, and the ongoing failure to extract this wealth from Germany (accused of starting the war, which ended in armistice, not victory), and the disaster of the Treaty of Versailles, WW2 became inevitable. This war did result in winners and losers, but at a terrible cost, and a waste of resources and wealth.

Gold was still somewhat tied to the dollar until the 1960's, when Nixon removed that connection due to the Brenton Wood crisis. Since then, the dollar has had no commodity value attached to it at all, and floats completely freely, just as other world currencies do. There is absolutely nothing backing them but pure faith. The paper and bits used to represent them have no inherent value of their own.

It is, of course, only a matter of time before the next crisis hits concerning world trade and currencies. How it will form, where it will strike first, how far it will spread, are all questions.

But you can prepare for it.

Gather wealth, not money. Buy property. Learn a valuable skill. Buy gold, silver, diamonds, fine art, anything that holds value as wealth. Establish the means to raise crops, if you can. Store what food, fuel, and other supplies you may need if you can. Prepare for disruptions in supplies (Covid has been good practice for that!). Disruptions can change an shift rather quickly in these conditions. Just be prepared for them. You need not fear at all.

Those dependent on government handouts will suffer the worst. They often lack marketable skills, depend on government whim and programs that the government can simply no longer afford, or changes in laws that make them ineligible almost overnight.

Now a bit of prophecy:

I don't see these kinds of changes coming within the next four years or so. Pressures are building, however. This is in all nations, not just the United States.

Currently, in the United States, the average taxpayer in this country owes some $215,000 in government debt obligations. That means, to pay off the debt, would require that amount from each taxpayer, collected equally. Got $215,000 sitting around to do this? How would you feel if the federal government decided to levy a tax of $213,000? Would you pay it, or would it be time for torches and pitchforks?

Since the ability to collect this from the population is not practical, they just keep kicking this can down the road, by printing money (until $213,000 doesn't seem so bad !!!), or paying off this debt by incurring more debt (!!!).

During this time, a $100,000 house can easily reach a value of several million dollars. The wealth is preserved, even though the dollar has fallen.

If we return to gold as the currency, with the amount of available gold right now, that would result in gold rising to as high as $31,000 an ounce almost overnight! The dollar used to be $20 an ounce. That's how far the dollar has already fallen.

There is no way any government can print their way out of this.
They can't borrow that much either, by issuing treasury notes. There are not enough investors.
They can't tax for it either, for reasons I've just explained.

The federal government is already effectively broke. Ewwwww.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
16-07-2020 01:50
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13867)
keepit wrote:
ITN,
There are so many errors in your last 2 posts that (i) just can't address them.

Argument of the stone fallacy. Void argument fallacy. The use of 'I' is capitalized.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Edited on 16-07-2020 01:52
16-07-2020 01:53
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13867)
Xadoman wrote:
Money is simply a piece of paper that has no inherent value. Natural resources like oil, coal etc on the other hand are valuable and without those the situation would get out of hands very quickly. Also, the poorest of the poor in America are quit rich compared to people in Estonia. Our average wage is about 1500 dollars( brutto) which is a very good salary here. Most people earn much less.


Quite right. It's about wealth, not money.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
16-07-2020 02:02
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(331)
What about bitcoin? I have a feeling that the thing is like a snowball that grows bigger and bigger and eventually it requires unreal amount of computing power and memory disks to simply maintain itself and therefore its collapse is inevitable.
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