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22-09-2019 01:46
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1875)
keepit wrote:
Gas,
Are you one of these guys that buys a new driver every year because the manufacturer says their driver hits the ball 10 yards further. If that was true, today's drivers would hit the ball 200 yards longer than the drivers of 20 years ago.
This is an example of us buying too much crap.


I purchased one new driver in my life. TaylorMade R11. Used it one year. It pissed me off so bad I tried to chuck it in the pond but it hit a golf cart before it got there. My buddy picked it up and gave it to his brother. Still hitting my 15+ year old Titleist 983K.


All the time the base and surface are at equal temperature as the equilibrium graduates to establish the temperature development--Pete Rogers
Edited on 22-09-2019 01:47
22-09-2019 02:02
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
Gas,
I don't know what those drivers are but i know they cost a lot of money and they sell a lot of them.
The marketeers are good at what they do.
IPhones are another good example. I remember when my youngest son and his friends first went into an apple store to look at a new apple product. You would think the kids had just discovered the Holy Grail. Good grief.
22-09-2019 02:12
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7570)
keepit wrote:Gas,
Noone would lose their jobs. They would just work half as much.

I have to ask ... what would be the penalty/fine for someone who continues to work the same amount and earn the same amount?

How much jail time would be appropriate for someone who gets caught taking on a second job ... and works 40 hours per week? Maybe even some ... gasp ... overtime? Could you see maybe a death penalty in there if the productivity is sufficiently egregious?


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
22-09-2019 02:14
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1875)
IBdaMann wrote:
keepit wrote:Gas,
Noone would lose their jobs. They would just work half as much.

I have to ask ... what would be the penalty/fine for someone who continues to work the same amount and earn the same amount?

How much jail time would be appropriate for someone who gets caught taking on a second job ... and works 40 hours per week? Maybe even some ... gasp ... overtime? Could you see maybe a death penalty in there if the productivity is sufficiently egregious?


.

Haha! laughing my ass off! Great post! I do believe the two words you're looking for are obscene profits. There must be jail time for that?


All the time the base and surface are at equal temperature as the equilibrium graduates to establish the temperature development--Pete Rogers
22-09-2019 02:22
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
Jail time would be too severe. Maybe they should be medicated. Just kidding!!!
22-09-2019 18:34
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2706)
The obvious problem with 'Half', is it only works for people settled into retirement homes, or living with their parents (still). Young people, just starting out on their own, need lots of stuff. When they get married, and have kids, they need a lot more stuff, probably a larger home as well, larger car, or even a second car. What about a man who wishes to start his own business? Costs money, beyond what 'half' a job will provide, since he will still have the same obligations, that only 'half' would provide for. Nothing lasts for ever. Eventually, there is maintenance, repairs, replacements needed. If you are only giving us half an income, because we don't need more stuff, how do we afford the stuff we need?

Suppose your sister's husband dies, and she was a stay at home mother, since they had 5 kids. She'll need some financial help, least for the first few months. How are you going to help, if you only have enough income to provide for your own family?

Extra income, doesn't mean everybody spends it on stuff they don't actually need, like an Iphone. I have a lot of hobbies and interests, I creative. I actually need a few things, to pursue these interest. Might not matter to most people, but my mind needs to keep busy, so I need to buy more stuff. Half an income, would be basically survival income. It would provide for incidental expenses, nor future plans and needs. It's just getting by, paycheck-to-paycheck. People need goals, and the opportunity to achieve those goals. Most people don't want to lay around in a retirement home, or satisfied with less of a life. Personally, I hope to die, before I get incarcerated in a retirement/nursing home. For me, it would be torture, so would be limited to half a job, and half an income. Working isn't just about earning enough to get by, it's to provide stability in your life, so you can afford to pursue your goals and interests. Half an income is living half a life...
22-09-2019 19:46
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
Harvey,
The thing is, stuff would cost less.
The other thing is, the climate crisis IS a crisis so we need to stop spending so much so we don't produce so much CO2.
There's a little something wrong about complaining about someone driving around a jet plane and then complaining about not being able to buy enough CO2 producing stuff.
I know, i know, the scale is different. I acknowledge that but i'm just making a point.
By the way, regarding currency and expenditures. There are more 100 dollar bills residing outside the US than there are inside the US. I don't know if there are more electronic dollars outside or inside. I think there are about the same number of treasuries outside the US as inside. How did this happen?
I know there are laws about how much money we can print so as to limit the ability to just print dollars to pay off foreign owned treasuries. I'm not sure how tight that law is?
22-09-2019 20:35
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2706)
How do you figure everything will cost less? You already proposed people work half as much, buy half as much, so business produce half as much, to reduce CO2. Supply and demand, set the price of what anything costs. Reduce the supply on most things, drives up the price. Half production, is half the supply. You still have the same number of people wanting to buy. For your economic vision, you would have to slaughter at least HALF the population. You are one sick individual, obsessed with kill a lot of people. You can't see, and just don't care. It'll never make any sense to you, because you don't value human lives. No sane person will ever buy the crap your selling, nor will they ever convince that mass killing is wrong.

Paper is simply paper. A dollar is a promise, that it's worth a dollar in goods or services. Your 'Half' economics, cuts that value in half. It becomes worth even less, if you just print more dollars, without adding more goods and services, to back up the value. If you own a stadium, and sell tickets, guaranteeing the barer is entitled to one seat. You can't print and sell more tickets, than you actually have seats for. Your stadium would also only support so many people just, who would be fine just standing. What do you tell all those people, who bought seats, and you have't enough space to accommodate them? Do you just thank them for their money, and suggest they show up earlier next time?
23-09-2019 00:25
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
keepit wrote:
Harvey,
I just meant that everyone would work half as many hours, produce half as much GDP and half as much CO2.
We don't need half the crap we buy anyway.
I'm just speaking in general terms here.


Who are YOU to decide what crap I want to buy? You are not the king.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
23-09-2019 00:26
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
keepit wrote:
Gas,
We don't need half the crap we buy. If we don't buy it there will be less man hours of work necessary but that doesn't mean lost jobs, just that people would work half as much.
So much of our paychecks goes to crap, we don't need that much paycheck if we don't buy the crap.


YOU don't get to decide how much crap people want to buy. You are no the king.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
23-09-2019 00:29
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
keepit wrote:
ITN,
"Destroying the economy" is only in your mind.

No. Printing money without a corresponding increase in wealth in an economy destroys that currency. It is history. It has happened in the past and will happen every time you do it.
keepit wrote:
"Treasuries" being the same as Treasury is incorrect.

I assume you mean bonds then.

You can't just sell bonds to raise money indiscriminately. That's government debt. The more bonds on the market, the higher the interest rate to the government to service that debt. Only so many people want to buy bonds.
keepit wrote:
"Mass is energy" is close enough for govt work.

No. Not even for government work.
keepit wrote:
Taxes being "theft" is only in your mind.

Confiscatory taxes is theft. There is no other word for it.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
23-09-2019 00:31
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
keepit wrote:
Gas,
I want you to be able to fish and golf.
I want the treasury and fed to pay off mortgage debt and interest debt so we don't have to. That will leave more money for golf clubs, etc.
The fed and treasury can pay off mortgage interest and other interest with fancy financing. I can't say exactly how but one way would be to exchange the treasuries that foreigners own for cash the we would print. Those dollars would go to foreign soil. That would cut the interest on debt that we have to pay by a lot. The world economy is growing so much that the dollars could be easily absorbed.
Also, we don't need to spend so much on national defense i think, because we already spend as much as the rest of the world according to what i heard.
Also , we don't need all the jet planes and fancy cars and mcmansions. I know you've complained about those before. I complain as well.


YOU don't get to decide what people need or want. You are not the king.

Economy is building, maintaining, and using all those fancy cars, jets, mansions, or anything else people want to buy.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
23-09-2019 00:35
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
keepit wrote:
Gas,
Noone would lose their jobs. They would just work half as much.

That's losing jobs, dumbass. Many people are paid hourly.
keepit wrote:
There are a lot of details that would need to be worked out.

Fascism and socialism don't work out. They bring misery until they collapse. YOU don't get to dictate what people want to buy. YOU don't get to dictate what businesses want to sell or how much of it they can sell. YOU don't get to dictate to people how long they are allowed to work.

You are proposing fascism.

keepit wrote:
It would be some work to make things equitable.

No. It is misery.
keepit wrote:
I think there's trouble coming in the form of currencies and global warming.

Many currencies, yes. Baseless currencies are a problem.
You have to define 'global warming' to describe what kind of problem it can bring.
keepit wrote:
This might head them both off.

You can't head off a buzzword. Define 'global warming'.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
23-09-2019 00:36
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
keepit wrote:
Gas, you make a good point about other countries loaning us money in good faith.
What i'm talking about should be done at a measured pace so as not to disrupt things.
Not to be draconian but our financial system may be in trouble and maybe those other countries would be happy to get paid. It's better than us defaulting, which probably won't happen though?


No. Fascism is fascism. YOU don't get to dictate how much people want to buy, how much businesses want to sell, or how long people are allowed to work. You are not the king.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
23-09-2019 00:37
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
keepit wrote:
Gas,
Are you one of these guys that buys a new driver every year because the manufacturer says their driver hits the ball 10 yards further. If that was true, today's drivers would hit the ball 200 yards longer than the drivers of 20 years ago.
This is an example of us buying too much crap.


No, this is example of YOU deciding arbitrarily what is 'too much crap'. YOU don't get to decide. You are not the king.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
23-09-2019 00:40
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
ITN,
Don't forget to respect the right to dissent.
Your dissent doesn't bother me.
23-09-2019 00:45
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
Harvey,
Your rant about me wanting to slaughter people is way off.

If there was a moratorium for a while on the production of planes and cars and mcmansions people wouldn't buy them. That's where a lot of the spending goes.
There have been many moratoriums when necessary.
Edited on 23-09-2019 00:48
23-09-2019 00:47
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
keepit wrote:
Harvey,
The thing is, stuff would cost less.

No. Available is less. Price controls never work. Fascism never works.
keepit wrote:
The other thing is, the climate crisis IS a crisis

Define 'climate crisis'. Define 'climate change'. Define 'global warming'.
keepit wrote:
so we need to stop spending so much

You don't get to decide. You are not the king.
keepit wrote:
so we don't produce so much CO2.

Producing CO2 is not a problem. No gas or vapor is capable of warming the Earth.
keepit wrote:
There's a little something wrong about complaining about someone driving around a jet plane and then complaining about not being able to buy enough CO2 producing stuff.

Contextomy fallacy.
keepit wrote:
I know, i know, the scale is different. I acknowledge that but i'm just making a point.

No, you have lost the point. Contextomy fallacy.
keepit wrote:
By the way, regarding currency and expenditures. There are more 100 dollar bills residing outside the US than there are inside the US.

Argument from randU fallacy.
keepit wrote:
I don't know if there are more electronic dollars outside or inside.

Most dollars are electronic. The paper money you have in your wallet is just a small fraction of dollars.
keepit wrote:
I think there are about the same number of treasuries outside the US as inside.

You mean bonds. The United States government has only one treasury.
keepit wrote:
How did this happen?

Anyone can buy government bonds. Big deal.
keepit wrote:
I know there are laws about how much money we can print

None. Zip. Zero. Nada. The government can print all the money it wants! Of course, the value of those dollars go down when they do, but so what, right?
keepit wrote:
so as to limit the ability to just print dollars to pay off foreign owned treasuries.

The government has to pay off ALL bonds, no matter who owns them. Defaulting on bonds causes a massive debt crash and likely causes the collapse of that government.
keepit wrote:
I'm not sure how tight that law is?

None. Zip. Zero. Nada. There is no such law.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
23-09-2019 00:49
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
keepit wrote:
ITN,
Don't forget to respect the right to dissent.
Your dissent doesn't bother me.


Don't forget the Constitution of the United States.

I do NOT respect your right to dictate to others what they can and cannot buy.
I do NOT respect your right to dictate to others what they can sell.
I do NOT respect your right to dictate how long people are allowed to work.

I do NOT respect your proposed fascism.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
23-09-2019 00:52
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
ITN,
I don't respect fascism either. I hope that's not news to you.

These conversations are just a hobby.

You can look up the definition of treasuries on wiki. The Treasury isn't the same thing.
Edited on 23-09-2019 01:06
23-09-2019 01:35
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
keepit wrote:
ITN,
I don't respect fascism either. I hope that's not news to you.

Lie. You are promoting it.
keepit wrote:
These conversations are just a hobby.

I also consider this a lie.
keepit wrote:
You can look up the definition of treasuries on wiki.

Wikipedia ignored on sight. False authority fallacy.
keepit wrote:
The Treasury isn't the same thing.

I understand already that you mean 'government bonds' when you are using the word 'treasuries'.

Frankly, you should use English. It works better.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
23-09-2019 19:10
Harry CProfile picture★☆☆☆☆
(143)
keepit wrote:
I hope this doesn't sound like a beatles song and this doesn't concern global warming deniers.
Spending halved and therefore GDP halved and therefore anthropogenic CO2 emissions halved. Imagine all your expenses being halved. The national debt eliminated. Interest on national debt eliminated. Your mortgage interest eliminated. Rental payments halved. Your fuel expenses halved. Food expenses halved. Student debt eliminated. Work week halved. Time spend golfing, fishing, and with family doubled. Plenty of jobs because no one could work more than half of what they do now.
The Fed and the Treasury could do this if they didn't have to listen to the politicians.
Anyone who isn't concerned with global warming and CO2 emissions needn't worry about CO2 being halved do they?

I need to get a life!


You don't need to get a life. You need to get real! I do not know the physics of green house gasses, but I know economics and finance very well. Your fairy tale proposition is totally unbalanced. Short of a great deal of inequity and misery, there is no way to get there from where we are without a revolt.


You learn something new every day if you are lucky!
23-09-2019 19:34
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
Harry,
I sounds like you know economics and finance better than me. OK.
Do you see the connection between GDP and CO2 emissions and do you have any economic solutions to GHG emissions?
23-09-2019 20:39
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7570)
keepit wrote:... and do you have any economic solutions to GHG emissions?

I take it that you intend to keep us all in the dark as to what GHG emissions are and why some sort of solution is needed.

Don't you need a problem first?


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
23-09-2019 22:41
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
Not sure i understand your question IBDM. Are you asking me to name GHG's or asking for the quantity. If you're asking for the quantity, the answer would be
A LOT!
If you asking me to name them, the answer would be mainly CO2, CH4, and water vapor.
If you're asking what the problem is, just ask the people in Bangladesh, in some of the Pacific Islands, and some of the people that have been the victims of wild weather in recent years, the victims of more severe hurricanes and typhoons, to name a few.

By the way, "printing" dollars to pay off treasuries doesn't increase the number of dollar. Treasuries are negotiable for cash.
The treasury is always "printing" dollars to pay off treasuries. Then they print more treasuries.
Edited on 23-09-2019 22:46
23-09-2019 23:19
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7570)
keepit wrote: Not sure i understand your question IBDM.

What defines a GHG?

1. What definition allows me to take two unknown gas samples, one being a GHG and the other not, and be able to tell which one is the GHG and which one is not?

2. Why should I care about this distinction?


keepit wrote: If you're asking what the problem is, just ask the people in Bangladesh,

Nope. I'm asking you.

What is this "problem" of which you speak?

The follow on question will be "How does your definition above link to the "problem" you are describing here?"


keepit wrote: By the way, "printing" dollars to pay off treasuries doesn't increase the number of dollar.

Yes it does. If you print one dollar to pay off one dollar of T-bills then you have one more dollar than you previously had. The person to whom you paid that dollar now has the dollar. All the other dollars still exist.

Hint: in your example, the government is printing (creating) new dollars to repay the loan rather than repaying the loan with the dollars that were borrowed in the first place. The number of dollars is increased and the overall value of each dollar is decreased.

Oh, and the correct term is "Treasury Bills" or "T-bills." There is only one Treasury. The term "treasuries" is slang for "treasury bills" which are simply loans to the government.

Yes, all financial instruments are traded for a cash value. Your home mortgage was probably "sold" for some immediate cash value.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
23-09-2019 23:30
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
IBDM,
When the treasury "prints" dollars to pay off treasuries, those treasuries are retired, they don't exist any more - less treasuries, more dollars. The thing is, when that happens we don't have to pay any more interest on the treasuries in question.

The definition of a greenhouse gas refers to the size of the molecule relative to the wavelength of infrared radiation.
23-09-2019 23:45
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
keepit wrote:
IBDM,
When the treasury "prints" dollars to pay off treasuries, those treasuries are retired, they don't exist any more - less treasuries, more dollars.

So the guy that owned the T-bill is getting paid with worthless paper? What's wrong with this picture?
keepit wrote:
The thing is, when that happens we don't have to pay any more interest on the treasuries in question.

Never mind the theft.
keepit wrote:
The definition of a greenhouse gas refers to the size of the molecule relative to the wavelength of infrared radiation.


A molecule is not a gas. Molecules do not even have to be in the form of a gas.

You have now effectively enlarged the set. The question now legitimately becomes:

1. What definition allows me to take two unknown solid, liquid, or gas samples, one being a GH material and the other not, and be able to tell which one is the GH material and which one is not?

Question 2 stays the same.

To that I add a third:
3. Is CO2 ice (dry ice) a Global Warming solid?

The wavelength of infrared light extends from 700nm to 1mm.

I am unaware of any molecule a millimeter in size, or even 700nm in size. A CO2 molecule is about 3 angstroms in length, or approx 0.3 nm, not 700nm or 1000000nm.

Care to try again?


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Edited on 23-09-2019 23:50
23-09-2019 23:49
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
IBDM,
I think i got it right so no, i don't feel the need to try again.
I don't understand your point when you say a molecule is not a gas. It's like saying a single molecule of H2O is not wet.

Think of a seagull sitting on the ocean and a big swell comes through. The seagull is not affected, he just rides with it.
If a small set of waves come through the seagull can be disrupted. That's how it is with certain molecules and infrared.
Edited on 23-09-2019 23:59
24-09-2019 00:10
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
keepit wrote:
IBDM,
I think i got it right so no, i don't feel the need to try again.

I am not IBDM. His response, if any, is still forthcoming.

I have shown you why you can't be right. Want to try again?
keepit wrote:
I don't understand your point when you say a molecule is not a gas.

Matter can exist as a solid, liquid, or gas. A molecule is not a gas. It's a molecule. It's the same molecule whether it's incorporated into a solid, liquid, or gas. Answer question 3 please.
keepit wrote:
It's like saying a single molecule of H2O is not wet.

It isn't. It's a molecule. Not even water can wet a molecule of water.
keepit wrote:
Think of a seagull sitting on the ocean and a big swell comes through. The seagull is not affected, he just rides with it.

Seagulls generally don't go out sitting on the open ocean. They stay near shorelines. However, let's just say a seagull got lost and is now starving out on the open ocean in this way.
keepit wrote:
If a small set of waves come through the seagull can be disrupted. That's how it is with certain molecules and infrared.

Why would small waves disrupt a seagull? Have you EVER been to sea? Swells are covered with small waves!

The wavelength of infrared light extends from 700nm to 1mm.

I am unaware of any molecule a millimeter in size, or even 700nm in size. A CO2 molecule is about 3 angstroms in length, or approx 0.3 nm, not 700nm or 1000000nm.

Care to try again?


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
24-09-2019 00:28
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
Let me put it this way -- which would you rather have, a 100 dollar bill or 100 dollar treasury bill?
24-09-2019 00:54
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2706)
keepit wrote:
Let me put it this way -- which would you rather have, a 100 dollar bill or 100 dollar treasury bill?


The $100 bill, of course. The T-bill isn't worth $100, until it's mature. By then, $100 doesn't by as much, as it does today. Now, on could hold on to that T-bill, after it matures, and it still earns interest.
24-09-2019 01:03
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
Harvey,
Your answer is understandable.
I was trying to show that there is an equivalency to them since they can be traded for dollars.
If someone cashes in a mature one to the treasury, the treasury prints dollars to take the place of the treasury bill and destroys the matured one - therefore no change in the total number of dollars (treasury dollars and "printed" dollars. If someone sells a treasury bill on the open market they get a hundred dollars and the buyer gets a 100 dollar treasury bill - therefore no change in the total number of dollars (treasury dollars plus "printed" dollars).

By the way, for those worried about dollars becoming worthless and inflation going crazy, don't forget that the dollar index is high and inflation is low. Rest easy (but anything can happen in this crazy world).
Edited on 24-09-2019 01:07
24-09-2019 02:03
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2706)
No, they don't print dollars to pay off debt, they use existing dollars. They print new dollars to replace damaged and worn bills, they print, based on the economy. Paper isn't passed around as much these days, a lot of it is electronic anymore. Basically, they only need enough paper, so people have what they need to do business. You can't have people going to the bank for a cash withdraw, only to get told they can't get what they want. If you wanted $1,000, in $20s, would want the bank to be all out of $10s and $20s, you'd have to get your $1,000 in other denominations? You make a purchase at a store, and they are fresh out of $1s, $5, so you get a pocket full of quarters?
24-09-2019 02:31
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
Harvey,
Earlier in this thread i used the word "print" with exclamation marks to point out that print can mean electronic dollars which is what is usually done. I guess i should have used exclamation marks all the way through to avoid confusion.
Anyway, when you turn in a treasury bill to the treasury you get electronic dollars. The treasury doesn't keep very many dollars. When they need dollars they print treasuries to raise money. Money is fungible meaning any dollar is exchangeable for another dollar. The whole thing is not understandable except by the experts. It's kind of what they say about quantum mechanics. "So you think you understand quantum theory huh ...well, you don't.
When all you get for treasuries is electronic dollars it is difficult to know what was the source of that electronic dollar.
I've red books on the fed and the treasury and still don't really know how they work.
This morning on CNBC they were talking about overnight repo's.
What is that?
What is the "carry trade"?
Etc.
Edited on 24-09-2019 02:33
24-09-2019 02:35
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
Harvey,
By the way. Some treasuries are worth the face value and then interest gets tacked on as time goes by.
Some aren't worth face value until the time of expiration.

It's kind of like in quantum mechanics they say, "Reality isn't what you think it is".
IMHO, money isn't what we think it is.
Edited on 24-09-2019 02:47
24-09-2019 02:57
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
I don't think it would be hard to put a moratorium on cars, planes, and mcmansions. Then have grass roots movement to just stop spending.
There would be less man hours of work but people would just have to share job.
I realize that getting people to share has always been a problem.
24-09-2019 03:39
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2706)
keepit wrote:
I don't think it would be hard to put a moratorium on cars, planes, and mcmansions. Then have grass roots movement to just stop spending.
There would be less man hours of work but people would just have to share job.
I realize that getting people to share has always been a problem.


Cars aren't going away. It's better than any other mode of transportation. That's why you don't see many horses on the roads anymore. Few holdouts in Pennsylvania. Planes and boats aren't all used for fun, many are used for businesses. You can take away people's source of income. Lots of boats used, to put food on the table, guess they all could get some extra food stamps...

But, in general, when you go back to the beginning of your silly circle. Yeah, you always start off the same, word-for-word, what sort of spend, do you see people doing less of? What kind of 'stuff' do you think people need less of, or should do without? You are still clueless about how an economy works, or maybe I just don't understand socialism. Socialism is not an option, so never studied it much.

If I remember right, the 'Occupy Wall Street' protesters claimed only 1% of the population is filthy rich. Even if they spent less, gave up their planes, boats, and mansions, it would make a huge difference on the environment. So, what exactly are the goods and services you think people don't need, or need less of? But most importantly, why do you think life would be more enjoyable, with just the minimal stuff people need to get by?
24-09-2019 03:58
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
Harvey,
A moratorium on cars, planes, and mcmansions doesn't mean they are taken off the road. It means you don't build any new ones for awhile. OK!

An awful lot of people spend a lot of money they don't need to. Not every one is on the brink of poverty. My sympathy to anyone who is!!! Those folks wouldn't be obligated to spend less, now would they!!!

Don't forget, the fed and treasury would be taking care of your interest expense, student loans, and medical expenses. I'm not sure how but those folks are tricky.
That's why they are there and we aren't.

Don't forget, the dollar index is high and inflation is low.
This might be the time to implement.

Etc.
Edited on 24-09-2019 04:09
24-09-2019 04:01
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
keepit wrote:
Let me put it this way -- which would you rather have, a 100 dollar bill or 100 dollar treasury bill?

$100 in gold or silver.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
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