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24-09-2019 04:02
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
keepit wrote:
Harvey,
Your answer is understandable.
I was trying to show that there is an equivalency to them since they can be traded for dollars.
If someone cashes in a mature one to the treasury, the treasury prints dollars to take the place of the treasury bill and destroys the matured one - therefore no change in the total number of dollars (treasury dollars and "printed" dollars. If someone sells a treasury bill on the open market they get a hundred dollars and the buyer gets a 100 dollar treasury bill - therefore no change in the total number of dollars (treasury dollars plus "printed" dollars).

By the way, for those worried about dollars becoming worthless and inflation going crazy, don't forget that the dollar index is high and inflation is low. Rest easy (but anything can happen in this crazy world).


Getting paid in worthless dollars is theft. Printing dollars without a corresponding increase in wealth is theft.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
24-09-2019 04:55
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
keepit wrote:
Harvey,
Earlier in this thread i used the word "print" with exclamation marks to point out that print can mean electronic dollars which is what is usually done. I guess i should have used exclamation marks all the way through to avoid confusion.
Anyway, when you turn in a treasury bill to the treasury you get electronic dollars. The treasury doesn't keep very many dollars. When they need dollars they print treasuries to raise money. Money is fungible meaning any dollar is exchangeable for another dollar. The whole thing is not understandable except by the experts. It's kind of what they say about quantum mechanics. "So you think you understand quantum theory huh ...well, you don't.
When all you get for treasuries is electronic dollars it is difficult to know what was the source of that electronic dollar.
I've red books on the fed and the treasury and still don't really know how they work.
This morning on CNBC they were talking about overnight repo's.
What is that?
What is the "carry trade"?

Here's how it worked before the Fed:

People used gold and silver for money. At that time, a dollar was a unit of weight. It was 1/20th oz of fine gold. Silver was used for day to day transactions, with gold used for major purchases.

If a nation ran short of gold, the economy would slow. Production and exports would have to increase. This activity would cause gold to flow back into the nation. The system self balanced, no central bank or organization was necessary, and it all just worked by itself.

Then WW1 broke out. The cost was ruinous to governments. They fought and fought, but no national boundaries changed. They finally gave up and went home. It did not end in victory for any side. It ended in armistice. The disasterous Treaty of Versailles was drawn up and signed. Since Germany was blamed for starting the war, they were directed by this treaty to pay everyone else for the costs. Germany didn't have the gold. No one had enough gold.

Forcing Germany into bankruptcy like this brought about the conditions for the rise of Hitler and WW2. But Britain was financially ruined. So was France. So were a lot of nations.

Rather than turning productivity into peaceful solutions to recover the losses, they debased their currency (just printed more of it for the same value of gold). In the United States, FDR simply stated that a dollar was worth 1/34th an oz rather than 1/20th of an oz. Naturally, people started hoarding gold. Money velocity dropped through the floor. The economy stalled.

Life after the Fed:

The Fed is a central bank, but with a major exception to most banks. Any time the government wants to write a rubber check (the kind that YOU get penalized for writing!) the Fed will cash it and make it good. In return for this service, the Fed was given authority to become an oligarchy over every other bank in the nation.

With the stroke of a pen, FDR created one of the most destructive oligarchies the United States has ever seen. Fascism had arrived in the United States in the form of the Fed.

* It can and does dictate what a bank will pay for interest rates.
* It can and does dictate what a bank may charge for interest rates.
* It can and does dictate how much a bank can loan out.
* It can and does dictate who a bank can lend to.
* It can and does dictate how much a dollar is worth, commodity value (such as how much gold or other commodity it can buy).

Before, banks were private companies like any other. They kept gold in their vaults from depositors and made loans to others. They issued certificates of deposits for that gold that looked a lot like the printed dollars today, but each bank issued it's own certificates.

Because the certificates represented gold, people would transact using the certificates rather than the gold itself. They were bearer certificates, you see.

Banks would occasionally get in trouble making loans that would blow up in their face. That gold was lost. The depositors, wanting their gold, still got it, until too many of them wanted their gold. The bank didn't have it. This kind of failure meant those who didn't get their gold in time lost everything they deposited.

So people naturally didn't trust banks much further than coordinating transactions in a region or city. Most people kept the bulk of their wealth out of the banks and in real estate or personal safes.

The coming of the Fed did a couple of things:
* It provides the FDIC (and later the FLSIC). This protects depositors when a bank fails. The government would eat the failure, putting THEIR gold in to replace what was lost.

But they only had so much gold. The FDIC and the FSLIC are both underfunded in the event of a massive string of failures. The same thing will happen.

Before the Fed, interest rates were open market. It was literally the price of money itself. It is the price of borrowing it. When people were spending, rates were naturally high, since they weren't saving it. This was a good indication to businesses to ramp up production and provide the things people wanted to buy.

When interest rates were low, people were saving. There was more money available to loan than people wanting to borrow. This was a good indication to a company to ramp down production, borrow cheap money, and upgrade their facilities.

Back and forth the market went.

The Fed institutes price controls on money itself. Price controls never work. They always cause shortages. In this case, money itself.

Since the creation of the Fed, they have adopted what is known as Keynesian economics. This disastrous policy pushes interest rates low to stimulate the economy and raises the rates to slow down an 'overheated economy' (there is really no such thing).

Now businesses have no true indication of market conditions. Rates are low when they would naturally be high. They are high when naturally they should be low. Like any oligarchy, their 'control' is nothing more than trying to catch up. It is closing the barn doors after the horse has gone. It's too late.

Easy money for too long causes not just borrowing to improve business facilities (quite possibly at a time when it's the WRONG thing to do!), it also causes borrowing for speculative purposes. People start gambling with the cheap money.

The boom.bust crash of 2000? Speculation in stocks, particularly high tech stocks.

The housing crash of 2007? Speculation in real estate. Buying houses one can't afford to try to flip them. Sooner or later, the pyramid scheme dies, and those left holding the bag (the banks in the last crash) get hurt the worst. For the everyday man, the 'good times' are really just a set up for the next crash. These 'good times' are in the form of one speculation or another, and it eventually must end. When the crash itself happens, the blame is not the banks, not the speculators, not the .bust companies, it is and always has been the Fed.

Now money printing has taken on scary proportions, thanks to Obama's multi-trillion dollar 'bailout' (slush fund). Trump has managed to stop it's effects quite well, delaying what must be. If he is successful, he might even be able to improve wealth creation in this nation to absorb the empty trillions that Obama printed. This is indeed his goal. He's a businessman. He understands what Obama has done. He knows that he must try to get capitalism going again to create the necessary wealth to get America back on its financial feet. There is a long way to go, but Trump has done an AMAZING job.

But the Fed is still there. The inevitable is still going to happen. The crash is already setting up (speculation this time on real estate and student loan investment packages). It's not yet reached the level of absolute stupidity just before a crash, but the stars are aligning for it.

If Trump gets another four years, I am convinced he can hold it off that long. Real wealth is being created. This is a healthy recovery, not one based on speculation, but the speculators are out there. The set up for the next crash is occurring even now.

Until then, good times are here. Make use of it. Learn skills. Equip yourself with the tools of your chosen trade. Improve your productivity. That is the BEST position to be in when the crash comes.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Edited on 24-09-2019 05:33
24-09-2019 05:14
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
I didn't write all that stuff below the first paragraph. For some reason it got coupled with stuff that wrote (or someone).
Edited on 24-09-2019 05:37
24-09-2019 05:27
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
keepit wrote:
Harvey,
By the way. Some treasuries are worth the face value and then interest gets tacked on as time goes by.
Some aren't worth face value until the time of expiration.

It's kind of like in quantum mechanics they say, "Reality isn't what you think it is".
IMHO, money isn't what we think it is.


Reality isn't defined by quantum mechanics. This particular little saying is really about the inability to define a definitive location or speed of a particle.

'Real' and 'reality' are defined by philosophy, using a branch of philosophy called phenomenology. This area of philosophy discusses what 'real' even means. It is about observations, how they are affected by how we perceive the world in our own minds, and about any data, since data is the result of an observation.

Essentially, there is no absolute 'real' or absolute 'reality'. What you perceive as 'reality' is really just your own personal 'reality', defined by you, and you alone. This is true for each and every one of us.

How we perceive the world is as unique as a fingerprint. And each 'reality' is just as unique.

So what IS money? What is it that gives money a value? Why do we use it in the first place?

First, money is a store of value. You can trade it for something else...something you value. You can convert a thing of value to money. Thus, money is simply a medium of exchange that acts as a store of value during the bartering process between people. We don't have to barter anymore, because money has value, long enough to complete the barter elsewhere with a different individual.

Second, money is a unit of account. This is to say that a unit of a money (such as the dollar) has the ability to be counted, and to represent a store of value relative to that count.

It doesn't matter if it's seashells, bits of gold, bits of silver, Bitcoin, dollars, yen, drachmas, dubloons, Tahlers (where the word 'dollar' comes from!), Euros, or dollars.

If people accept it as a store of value, and it can be a unit of account, it is money. It will ONLY be money if it satisfies these two things.

If one were to just print dollars in masse to pay off loans, that store of value is diminished, quite possibly to the point of losing trust. It takes a surprisingly small number of people to initiate a change to a new currency and abandon an old currency. One by one, each man's price is reached to decide to abandon the currency. Then it cascades quickly, as the new currency becomes more widely accepted and the old currency is rejected.

No nation can stop it. No bank can stop it. The Fed can't stop it. It is literally the power of the people, acting one by one adding their bit of influence, until it cascades rapidly (oftentimes seemingly overnight!). When the currency changes, it seems to happen all at once, but it instead has been happening for some time, just under the radar, so to speak.

Naturally, nations and banks will try to stop it, but in the end they are completely powerless.

Will it happen soon? Consider:

People are even now looking for alternatives to the dollar. Gold was in vogue for awhile, perhaps it will be again. Bitcoin went nuts, until it got hacked and became worthless. The improved Bitcoin (Bitcoin II) has not yet been hacked, but it has been grossly over speculated. People are still hurting from that one!

There is a World Bank (they just created it practically on a napkin) and it has a clean balance sheet. Will people invest in it? Their currency is the Special Drawing Right (SDR). The bank is designed to act as a clearinghouse for international trade. This is real wealth, and the SDR is indexed to a basket of trade activity and currencies. Somehow I doubt the populace will accept the SDR as anything legitimate.

Which leaves gold and silver again. Archaic? This is the usual complaint, but that is being made by nations that are using currencies based on how much they want to print that day. The U.S. isn't the only one. Practically every country in the world is doing the same thing. That's why the crashes are taking on a global level.

But gold and silver CAN work with modern banking systems, including ATMs, electronic transfers, and all the rest. It simply means those bits flying around have an actual meaning beyond how much some government wants to 'print' currency.

Time will tell.

Become productive. Invest in yourself. That is the BEST way to weather a downturn or a crash.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
24-09-2019 05:29
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
HarveyH55 wrote:
keepit wrote:
I don't think it would be hard to put a moratorium on cars, planes, and mcmansions. Then have grass roots movement to just stop spending.
There would be less man hours of work but people would just have to share job.
I realize that getting people to share has always been a problem.


Cars aren't going away. It's better than any other mode of transportation. That's why you don't see many horses on the roads anymore. Few holdouts in Pennsylvania. Planes and boats aren't all used for fun, many are used for businesses. You can take away people's source of income. Lots of boats used, to put food on the table, guess they all could get some extra food stamps...

But, in general, when you go back to the beginning of your silly circle. Yeah, you always start off the same, word-for-word, what sort of spend, do you see people doing less of? What kind of 'stuff' do you think people need less of, or should do without? You are still clueless about how an economy works, or maybe I just don't understand socialism. Socialism is not an option, so never studied it much.

If I remember right, the 'Occupy Wall Street' protesters claimed only 1% of the population is filthy rich. Even if they spent less, gave up their planes, boats, and mansions, it would make a huge difference on the environment. So, what exactly are the goods and services you think people don't need, or need less of? But most importantly, why do you think life would be more enjoyable, with just the minimal stuff people need to get by?


Gawd, the horse manure of so many people traveling to the cities was so bad...the coming of the car was a real Godsend.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
24-09-2019 05:32
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
keepit wrote:
Harvey,
A moratorium on cars, planes, and mcmansions doesn't mean they are taken off the road. It means you don't build any new ones for awhile. OK!

So you are advocating that we keep driving older, inefficient cars that put out CO2 instead of building new and improved versions???
Planes and ships are no different. Newer planes are far more fuel efficient than the old stuff.
keepit wrote:
An awful lot of people spend a lot of money they don't need to.

YOU don't get to decide what people want to spend their money on or whether they 'need' it. You are not the king.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
24-09-2019 05:33
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
keepit wrote:
I didn't write all that stuff below the first paragraph. For some reason it got coupled with stuff that Harvey wrote (or someone). Maybe it was ITN who wrote it, not Harvey.


Corrected. A quoting problem I didn't notice.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Edited on 24-09-2019 05:34
24-09-2019 05:40
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
ITN,
Could you correct all the repeats of that bogus post that you've caused.
Thanks
24-09-2019 05:41
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
keepit wrote:
ITN,
Could you correct all the repeats of that bogus post that you've caused.
Thanks


What repeats?


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
24-09-2019 05:44
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
Well, you quoted the incorrect quote a few times. Just read up and down and you'll see it's still there.
I don't want to be associated with some of that stuff you post.
Thanks
Edited on 24-09-2019 05:45
24-09-2019 05:51
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
Let me clarify just a bit here.

I don't want the responsibility of deciding any thing for anyone.
I like the idea of being a consultant, that's all. No decisions, no bossing, no responsibility.
I'm retired and loving it.
24-09-2019 05:53
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
ITN,
Thanks for fixing up that quoting error.
24-09-2019 07:13
VernerHornungProfile picture★☆☆☆☆
(133)
keepit wrote:
The national debt would be largely eliminated by printing money to pay the treasuries owed to foreigners to help the the fed and treasury buy back debt...

Ah, and die Plattdeutschen, hymning their new, postwar anthem Deutschland über Alles, learnt what happens if you do that. In 1923. The hard way. They owed lots of reparations to France per Versailles, and printed money to pay it while stiffing on the coal cars demanded in the treaty.

For once IDbaMann deserves a nod for pointing this out, though private banks actually create most of the money in the US by writing loans, money which is destroyed when the loans are repaid. Economy is as difficult a topic as climate change is.

And the political quagmire you must traverse to change anything about McMansions? Just look at this thread, after one simple leaflet drop. I'll stick with extending tax credits for windmills and reinstating them for solar, along with plowing some dough into R&D on carbon-free energy for now.


Never try to solve an NP-complete problem on your own with pencil & paper.
Edited on 24-09-2019 07:16
24-09-2019 07:29
VernerHornungProfile picture★☆☆☆☆
(133)
Into the Night wrote:
With the stroke of a pen, FDR created one of the most destructive oligarchies the United States has ever seen. Fascism had arrived in the United States in the form of the Fed.


Fact check: The Federal Reserve was created in 1913 when Woodrow Wilson was president, twenty years before FDR.
~



Never try to solve an NP-complete problem on your own with pencil & paper.
24-09-2019 18:06
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7570)
VernerHornung wrote:Fact check: The Federal Reserve was created in 1913 when Woodrow Wilson was president, twenty years before FDR.
~

Fact Check: The Federal Reserve was not born an oligarchy in 1913 as VernerHornung strangely claims. The Federal Reserve's transformation into an oligarchy occurred on March 9, 133 when FDR signed the Emergency Banking Act of 1933 as Into the Night correctly stated.

It looks like VernerHornung needs some serious remedial history lessons. I wonder how much of the rest of his "education" came from the same source as his misunderstanding of history. Maybe that's where he supposedly learned geology with dirt and gravel.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
24-09-2019 18:13
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
Verner,
King dollar and the us economy is far different than Germany or whatever country you're talking about after WW2.
I know there are flaws in what i've been talking about. Just take it in moderation and improve on it so as to ameliorate CO2 emissions. And student debt. And medicare for all.
24-09-2019 18:16
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1875)
I'm hungry. Can you toss in free pizza?
24-09-2019 18:18
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
Pizza in moderation is also a good idea.
24-09-2019 18:20
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1875)
Prime rib? Lobster?

Or is pizza on the "needs" list?
24-09-2019 18:32
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7570)
GasGuzzler wrote: I'm hungry. Can you toss in free pizza?

Great point.

The bottom line is that where the economy is strongest, the environment thrives. Where the economy is a disaster, the environment is a disaster.

It's an absolute farce for people of San Francisco to be banning plastic straws when virtually all of the plastic being washed out to sea is coming from impoverished countries.

It's an absolute farce for eco-terrorists to be protesting controlled logging in the US when all the deforestation and rampant burning of trees for fuel is occurring in impoverished countries in Eastern Europe and Africa, in Brazil, Indonesia, Thailand, the Democratic Republic of Congo and others.

Protesters in the US have zero credibility. Zero. Protesters complaining about the US deserve to be mocked ... and ridiculed ... and then mocked again.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
24-09-2019 18:49
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
We're in this finance, currency, economic quandary and i don't think breakfast table economics is going to get us out.

IBDM,
I'm from the US protest generation of the 60's. We wrote the book.
Edited on 24-09-2019 18:50
24-09-2019 18:55
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1875)
keepit wrote:
We're in this finance, currency, economic quandary and i don't think breakfast table economics is going to get us out..


Absolutely right.

Intuition, perspiration, earnings and GROWTH.

That's the way out.


All the time the base and surface are at equal temperature as the equilibrium graduates to establish the temperature development--Pete Rogers
Edited on 24-09-2019 18:56
24-09-2019 19:00
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1875)
IBdaMann wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote: I'm hungry. Can you toss in free pizza?

Great point.

The bottom line is that where the economy is strongest, the environment thrives. Where the economy is a disaster, the environment is a disaster.


It's an absolute farce for eco-terrorists to be protesting controlled logging in the US when all the deforestation and rampant burning of trees for fuel is occurring in impoverished countries in Eastern Europe and Africa, in Brazil, Indonesia, Thailand, the Democratic Republic of Congo and others.
.


Excellent point....

And what is the structure of gov in these impoverished countries? (hanging curvball
)


All the time the base and surface are at equal temperature as the equilibrium graduates to establish the temperature development--Pete Rogers
24-09-2019 19:23
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
The trouble with economic growth is that it produces CO2.
I know, i know.

I'm not so sure we could grow our way out.
Edited on 24-09-2019 19:25
24-09-2019 19:24
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7570)
GasGuzzler wrote:Excellent point....

And what is the structure of gov in these impoverished countries? (hanging curvball
)

Good question. Let me think about this for a moment.

I don't know but for some reason the Democrat candidate "debates" keep popping into my mind, ... and images of Mussolini ... and of Pol Pot ... I don't know.

Let me get back to you on this one.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
24-09-2019 19:27
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
Bill DeBlasio would have been a great candidate but when he said, "Tax the hell out of the rich" he lost his funding.
24-09-2019 19:28
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
keepit wrote:
Well, you quoted the incorrect quote a few times. Just read up and down and you'll see it's still there.
I don't want to be associated with some of that stuff you post.
Thanks


Void argument fallacy. What quote?

I already know I am The Great Satan when it comes to your religion. I'm happy to serve!

But you can't banish me. I am in your midst, spreading discontent in your religion. You may try to run and hide in locked rooms and forums, but I am still here. You may cover yourself under the bedsheets, but I am still here.

I am the Parrot Killer.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Edited on 24-09-2019 19:30
24-09-2019 19:32
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
VernerHornung wrote:
keepit wrote:
The national debt would be largely eliminated by printing money to pay the treasuries owed to foreigners to help the the fed and treasury buy back debt...

Ah, and die Plattdeutschen, hymning their new, postwar anthem Deutschland über Alles, learnt what happens if you do that. In 1923. The hard way. They owed lots of reparations to France per Versailles, and printed money to pay it while stiffing on the coal cars demanded in the treaty.

For once IDbaMann deserves a nod for pointing this out, though private banks actually create most of the money in the US by writing loans, money which is destroyed when the loans are repaid. Economy is as difficult a topic as climate change is.

And the political quagmire you must traverse to change anything about McMansions? Just look at this thread, after one simple leaflet drop. I'll stick with extending tax credits for windmills and reinstating them for solar, along with plowing some dough into R&D on carbon-free energy for now.


Unfortunately, those private banks are lorded over by the Fed. They can't make a single loan, or borrow a single dollar, or even accept any depositor, without a blessing from the Fed.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
24-09-2019 19:33
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
VernerHornung wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
With the stroke of a pen, FDR created one of the most destructive oligarchies the United States has ever seen. Fascism had arrived in the United States in the form of the Fed.


Fact check: The Federal Reserve was created in 1913 when Woodrow Wilson was president, twenty years before FDR.
~


Yup. Wilson created the Fed. FDR was Wilson on steroids. It was FDR that revalued the gold, and eventually BANNED owning it! That's when Fort Knox was built, you see. The Treasury building couldn't house all that gold anymore!

Nixon removed gold as a base for the value of the dollar completely. There is no commodity base for the dollar today, or for pretty much any currency of any nation of economic consequence in the world.

They just print it.

That's okay, as long as the number of dollars printed correspond with the wealth created in a nation, but it is not okay to just print them indiscriminately.

The temptation is there, though. Sooner or later, it happens. Then like an addiction, it happens more and more.

They're practically dropping Yen from helicopters right now, but no one is bothering to pick them up. Prime interest rates on the Yen are negative! (Take it...PLEASE take it! We'll PAY you to take it!)

Yen is still local currency largely only because the Japanese tend to be so group oriented. More and more of them are looking for another currency, even as we speak.

It can happen to the dollar too. It can happen to any currency. Remember when it happened to the Peso? That thing dropped to less than one mil in US dollars, practically overnight. Mexico had to issue a NEW Peso, worth 1000 old Pesos!


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Edited on 24-09-2019 19:45
24-09-2019 19:46
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7570)
keepit wrote: The trouble with economic growth is that it produces CO2. I know, i know.

By "trouble" I presume you mean "added benefit"?

keepit wrote: We're in this finance, currency, economic quandary and i don't think breakfast table economics is going to get us out.

Controlling Congressional spending is the only thing that will work.

keepit wrote:IBDM, I'm from the US protest generation of the 60's. We wrote the book.

Have you checked your credibility level lately? What's the reading?

keepit wrote:I know there are flaws in what i've been talking about. Just take it in moderation and improve on it so as to ameliorate CO2 emissions. And student debt. And medicare for all.

keepit, one sure-fire way to eliminate student debt is for students to pay off their debt. I don't see you writing much about this option.

I am also still waiting for some clarification as to why we're even talking about CO2 emissions. I have asked you multiple times and you apparently want to keep that a secret.

I have good news, though. You're going to want to celebrate. Perhaps you didn't get the memo but we've had Medicare for all since 1966, probably because you were distracted, you know, writing your book on protesting.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
24-09-2019 19:46
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
IBdaMann wrote:
VernerHornung wrote:Fact check: The Federal Reserve was created in 1913 when Woodrow Wilson was president, twenty years before FDR.
~

Fact Check: The Federal Reserve was not born an oligarchy in 1913 as VernerHornung strangely claims. The Federal Reserve's transformation into an oligarchy occurred on March 9, 133 when FDR signed the Emergency Banking Act of 1933 as Into the Night correctly stated.

It looks like VernerHornung needs some serious remedial history lessons. I wonder how much of the rest of his "education" came from the same source as his misunderstanding of history. Maybe that's where he supposedly learned geology with dirt and gravel.


.


Bingo.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
24-09-2019 19:48
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
keepit wrote:
Verner,
King dollar and the us economy is far different than Germany or whatever country you're talking about after WW2.
I know there are flaws in what i've been talking about. Just take it in moderation and improve on it so as to ameliorate CO2 emissions. And student debt. And medicare for all.


'Moderate' fascism is still fascism. No thanks. There is nothing moderate about what you propose.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
24-09-2019 19:49
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13780)
keepit wrote:
We're in this finance, currency, economic quandary and i don't think breakfast table economics is going to get us out.

IBDM,
I'm from the US protest generation of the 60's. We wrote the book.


Har.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
24-09-2019 19:53
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
IBDM,
I don't think controlling congressional spending can pay off the national debt. The debt is too big. Besides it would shrink the economy.
I know, i know,that would reduce the CO2 emissions.
24-09-2019 20:06
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2708)
But still... What products and services do you believe we need to buy less of?

The money we spend, part of which goes toward the income of other people, who work for money to spend. Part of the money they spend, becomes part of my income. That's why it's always best to do your spending in your own community, as much as possible. Spending money in China, doesn't help our economy, or help pay American wages.

The real source of phantom currency in America, is the credit industry. Use to be loans, debt, where bad things, only as a last resort, and to be paid off quickly, because it's a horrible thing to be in debt. It wasn't easy to get a loan, or credit, the lender made very sure you were stable, and able, to repay your obligation in full. Somewhere a long the line, it became easy to get credit and loans, didn't really seem like the banks were overly concerned about getting repaid. Maybe a government guarantee, or they usually got their investment back in interest, before most people default, they only lost profit. Sometimes they could squeeze out a little more profit in collections, or just sell the debt. The also placed a lot of importance on credit scores. You get a very low score, for not using credit. If you live responsibly these days, it's harder to get a loan, if you are debt free, than someone with credit cards, and some debt. You only get a high score, by frequently using credit. Sort of like a drug deal giving out free samples, since he knows some people are predisposed toward addictive behavior, and will become frequent, and profitable customers. Now, if you are careful, and smart about credit, you can game their little system, long as nothing goes wrong in your life. But you always have that temptation dangling within reach, of over spending, and getting caught up in debt.

When I paid off my house, and everything else, I never used credit again, not even a credit card. I don't know my credit score, probably take a look someday, but probably doesn't get much worse. Figure it's not real attractive to identity thieves, to hard to get a loan, or even a simple credit card. Even my own bank wouldn't give me a credit card, and been with the same bank for almost 30 years. They have the most complete record of my income and spending available, and they offered it, pre-approved. Thought a no annual fee card would be okay, as a backup plan, if my debit card didn't work.
24-09-2019 20:13
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7570)
Into the Night wrote:It can happen to the dollar too. It can happen to any currency. Remember when it happened to the Peso?

You have to specify which peso because many countries call their currency the "peso."

I initially thought you were referring to Colombia whose peso currently trades at 3500 to the dollar. Back when I was going there more frequently (~15 years ago) I chuckled at its 2300 to 1 dollar exchange rate. Sadly, it's a constant erosion of value.

[side topic]
If you ever travel to Honduras, you might be tempted to exchange one dollar for 25 lempiras, all in "nickels" ... so about 500 of them ... which are moderately larger coins ... to use as chips on poker night.


[/side topic]


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
24-09-2019 20:15
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
Harvey,
Just off the top of my head, 50-100 K weddings could be moderated. I know you like your fishing but it is very expensive CO2 wise. The more things i mention the more aggravated someone is going to get. Noone is going to get enthused about spending less unless they fear climate change for their grandchildren.
If they do fear it, they might get motivated to spend less.

I'm not advocating that poorly funded people spend less.
24-09-2019 20:24
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7570)
keepit wrote:Noone is going to get enthused about spending less unless they fear climate change for their grandchildren.

My family does not fear "Climate Change." I take it that we are therefore rightly justified in opposing lowered spending?

keepit wrote:I'm not advocating that poorly funded people spend less.

This is exactly who you should be recommending spend less.

I considered putting this quote of yours in my signature.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
24-09-2019 20:32
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2708)
How does a wedding ring increase CO2? It's not regular spending, maybe 3 or 4 times, in a lifetime, if you are really bad at it, but determined to get it right. Besides, if it's a lab created diamond, that's fair chunk of coal, that will never get burned... Carbon sequestered.

What about more common spending, stuff we buy often, pretty much, every month or year? Not many people make those big spending purchases, or all that often, even when they can afford them. If your little scheme is to reduce CO2, then you need a list of common things, average people spend money on often.
24-09-2019 20:40
keepit
★★★★☆
(1747)
The thing with big expenditures, whether they are for fossil fuel expenditures or not, the money that is spent is received by someone and then it is respent. I've heard that respending any dollar can occur 7 times on average. A lot of that money goes to fossil fuel expenditures. For example, it is hard to think of much that you have that didn't require fossil fuel expenditures to become shipped to you.
The rich people are spending a LOT of money. I don't advocate the less well funded people spend less. It would be a hardship.
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