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20-09-2019 23:30
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10253)
keepit wrote:
Productivity is a measure of efficiency, not total production.


No, productivity is a measure of wealth creation. Total production is the wealth so created.

By destroying the dollar, productivity will cease until a new currency is agreed upon by the people.


The Parrot Killer
20-09-2019 23:31
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10253)
keepit wrote:
Gas,
My pie in the sky plan doesn't change the total number of dollars, ti just changes who controls the dollars. Many dollars would go to foreigners and the world economy is growing so much that the world economy could absorb them with out causing as much inflation out there as one would think (i think?).


Printing dollars is changing the total number of dollars, dumbass.

Printing dollars with no associated increase in wealth devalues the dollar.

The massive printing you are suggesting would destroy the dollar as a currency.


The Parrot Killer
20-09-2019 23:43
keepit
★★★☆☆
(783)
There would be some printing, yes!
It would result in a redistribution of money, yes!
Debt transferred form the individual to the govt wouldn't be an increase in debt. It would be that the debt would be more evenly distributed.
20-09-2019 23:47
keepit
★★★☆☆
(783)
Transferring debt from the individual to the govt doesn't increase total debt. It just redistributes it.
Printing money to pay off treasuries doesn't increase total dollars, it just stops the interest payments on the treasuries.

Treasuries and dollars have a sort of equivalency.
Edited on 20-09-2019 23:48
20-09-2019 23:54
keepit
★★★☆☆
(783)
ITN,
If you don't believe me, look up productivity on wiki.
I'm not your personal educator. You're not paying me enough.
21-09-2019 01:11
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10253)
keepit wrote:
Gas,
That's the thing, work half as much, produce half as much, and therefore produce half as much CO2.
I'm sure producing half as much CO2 doesn't bother you.

You would likely increase CO2 production a LOT. People couldn't buy much energy anymore, so they would be heating their homes with wood fires or coal.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 21-09-2019 01:11
21-09-2019 01:17
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10253)
keepit wrote:
Landlord rents are subject to market forces just like anything else. If one landlords mortgage interest goes away he can lower the rent to compete for tenants etc.

Oh! You want to forgive the debts of only SOME landlords? Who are the special ones, hmmmmm?

What happens to the banks those mortgages are owed to? Guess they disappear, eh? Bank failures galore! So much for any money YOU might have in them!
keepit wrote:
Economics is not YOUR strong suit IBDM.

Childish. It is YOU that demonstrating you don't even have any idea what money is or what gives it value.
keepit wrote:
King dollar is not the same as Venezuelan dollars or Zimbabwe dollars. That makes your analogies silly.

No. Your scheme would turn it into the equivalent of Zimbabwe dollars. Worthless.


The Parrot Killer
21-09-2019 01:21
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1529)
I suspect Mr. takeit has some rental property he'd like for us to pay for?
21-09-2019 01:21
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10253)
keepit wrote:
Printing dollars by the fed and treasury is not the same as "we the people" paying the debt.

Correct. It is destroying the dollar as a currency instead.
keepit wrote:
Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. It just changes who controls those dollars.

Printing dollars to pay debt increases the number of dollars when there is no increase in wealth.
keepit wrote:
My wife used to freak out every time i refinanced something to reduce the interest expense.

Refinancing is not printing.
keepit wrote:
I don't think she ever truly realized that refinancing isn't the same as increasing debt

Refinancing is not printing.


The Parrot Killer
21-09-2019 01:23
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10253)
keepit wrote:
IBDM,
You make so many false assumptions...

For example, suppose we print dollars to pay off treasuries. That doesn't increase the amount of dollars out there, at least if you count treasuries as dollars. What it would do is it would decrease the amount of interest expense.

No, what you would do is destroy the dollar.


The Parrot Killer
21-09-2019 01:24
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10253)
keepit wrote:
Harvey,
I didn't say that. Borrowing at a lower interest rate can decrease your interest expense.

Printing is not borrowing.


The Parrot Killer
21-09-2019 01:25
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10253)
keepit wrote:
Zimbabwe and Venezuela aren't the same as the usa. Neither is their currency. We can do things with dollars that V. and Z. can't do.


Your scheme would put is in the same state as Zimbabwe. You would destroy the dollar, just like they destroyed their own currency by printing like that.


The Parrot Killer
21-09-2019 01:27
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10253)
keepit wrote:
Gas,
For example, we can use dollars to buy things on the international market at good prices. Buying things with zimbzb or venz money doesn't work so well. We can borrow money from other countries because the dollar has a history of stability which V. and Z. don't.
These facts are a tremendous advantage.
That advantage could go away in time if the world starts using the yuan instead of the dollar.


You would bring that about. The dollar would no longer be used in world trade.


The Parrot Killer
21-09-2019 01:28
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10253)
keepit wrote:
Gas,
Dollars and treasuries are pretty much equivalent.

WRONG. Dollars are currenty. The treasure is an account.
keepit wrote:
If you print dollars to pay off treasuries you aren't increasing the number of total dollars if you consider dollars and treasuries equivalent.

They are not equivalent. No one has to pay off the treasury.


The Parrot Killer
21-09-2019 01:31
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10253)
keepit wrote:
Do you actually think i don't calculate into the equation the closing costs when i refinance?
Come on!!!


I know you don't.


The Parrot Killer
21-09-2019 01:33
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10253)
keepit wrote:
I'm not discounting what you say here.

Yes you are, liar.
keepit wrote:
Covert gradualism to some degree may be going on and we don't know it.

We do know it. That's what is happening now.
keepit wrote:
We could be in for trouble but i'm trying to be prepared.

You will not be prepared. Not with that attitude.


The Parrot Killer
21-09-2019 01:33
keepit
★★★☆☆
(783)
You're way too much work.
21-09-2019 01:36
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10253)
keepit wrote:
There would be some printing, yes!
It would result in a redistribution of money, yes!
Debt transferred form the individual to the govt wouldn't be an increase in debt. It would be that the debt would be more evenly distributed.


The government doesn't have enough money.

You can't print that kind of money without destroying the dollar.
You can't borrow that kind of money without increasing the government debt.
You can't tax that kind of money without a revolt.


The Parrot Killer
21-09-2019 01:36
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10253)
keepit wrote:
ITN,
If you don't believe me, look up productivity on wiki.
I'm not your personal educator. You're not paying me enough.


Wikipedia is not a valid reference. Rejected.


The Parrot Killer
21-09-2019 01:39
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10253)
keepit wrote:
You're way too much work.


Running out of counterarguments, eh?


The Parrot Killer
21-09-2019 01:42
keepit
★★★☆☆
(783)
Not running out of counterarguments. You misinterpret so much that it wold take way too much effort and you probably would just misinterpret.

I think there are currency problems and global warming problems. My suggestion (shrink the economy) would deal with both problems, hopefully.
21-09-2019 02:41
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10253)
keepit wrote:
Not running out of counterarguments.

Since you haven't presented one for quite awhile, I would say you have.
keepit wrote:
You misinterpret so much that it wold take way too much effort and you probably would just misinterpret.

Void argument fallacy.
keepit wrote:
I think there are currency problems

So do I.
keepit wrote:
and global warming problems.

Define ' global warming'.
keepit wrote:
My suggestion (shrink the economy) would deal with both problems, hopefully.

No, it would destroy the currency. A meaningless buzzword is not a problem. Define 'global warming'.


The Parrot Killer
21-09-2019 15:55
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1513)
keepit wrote:
Not running out of counterarguments. You misinterpret so much that it wold take way too much effort and you probably would just misinterpret.

I think there are currency problems and global warming problems. My suggestion (shrink the economy) would deal with both problems, hopefully.


The debate game is aggravating and frustrating, not entirely factual, intentionally deceptive. I try to stay out of the game...

The currency problem is due to manipulation of it's value, to control the economy (steal money from the working class), to better control their lives. Life is a normally a wild roller coaster ride, and people had to hold on tight, work hard at it. Manipulating the economy is a tool, to take the work out of living, least for a few people, in the upper classes, who want to see steady profits, and obedient under-class workers. Climate-change, is just a manipulation tool, the upper class uses to get others to obediently allow them to steal more money, and control more of their lives. All of the wealthy supporters of climate change, haven't changed their own lifestyles, or the way they do business, even though they have the financial resources to go 'green'. They still hop on their private jets, and fly relatively short distances, that wouldn't have cost as much, or been as carbon-frivolous, had they taking a more environmentally friendly mode of transportation. They have the resources to change there business to renewable, new constructions could be done with 'green' equipment, and resources, built to be renewable friendly as well. They still want to save money, over saving the planet. They want fast and easy, over doing the work, that would be what the say would save the planet. They've had decades of viable alternatives, which I guess are fine for the average folks. But if these alternatives are good, and better for the environment, how come the preachers still go with the cheap fossil fuels, over saving the planet?

Your economic suggest are just plain silly, a little annoying, since they never apply to your living situation, or ever will effect you personally. Most people work, because they want to own a home, raise a family, start a business. All of which costs a lot of money. More money than they have. It's not just about getting by, surviving. We want to improve our lives, and provide for our families, hopefully build something to leave our children. We aren't afraid to do the work, and aren't satisfied with charity rationed out. Life really is a lot better, with challenges, it's very gratifying, when we get past the rough spots, and succeed, makes us stronger. Unfortunately, the socialist types are weak, and want to use manipulations, to smooth out the rough spots, avoid the challenges. And, eventually, they won't be able to continue manipulating, and people will be too weak, to stand the challenges they face, no past experience to prepare them, just a dependency on others to solve all their problems. Those other people, will have big problems of their own, and no time or resources to help the people who need it most, the people who were manipulated into dependency on hand outs.
21-09-2019 17:22
keepit
★★★☆☆
(783)
Harvey,
My attempts to discuss economics aren't meant to be off topic. They're meant to be explanations of how halving the economy would halve halve CO2 production.
So --- dollars are convertible into treasuries and back into dollars just like mass is interconvertible into energy and back under the right circumstances.
Take student debt, i think i heard it is 1.2 trillion. It's owed by students mostly. If that debt is forgiven, the country as a whole owes the 1.2 trill. No real change in the amount of debt. Just redistribution.
It would be the same with medicare for all, etc.
Edited on 21-09-2019 17:36
21-09-2019 21:23
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5225)
keepit wrote: Harvey, My attempts to discuss economics aren't meant to be off topic. They're meant to be explanations of how halving the economy would halve halve CO2 production.

But you never explain why anyone would want to halve CO2 production.

There are people who hate humanity and wouldn't mind killing all life on planet earth. Such people realize that further reductions of the already trace levels of atmospheric CO2 could be catastrophic to life on earth.

Is that your reason for wishing this? Do you count yourself among such people? If not, would you mind sharing what reason you do have? Why should I or anyone want to reduce atmospheric CO2?

keepit wrote: Take student debt, i think i heard it is 1.2 trillion. It's owed by students mostly.

You think? Student debt is owed by students? How do you figure?

keepit wrote: If that debt is forgiven, ...

Great ... switch to the passive voice and totally derail your argument.

keepit wrote: No real change in the amount of debt. Just redistribution.

You say that like it's a good thing.

Hint: it's a very BAD thing.

keepit wrote: It would be the same with medicare for all, etc.


Hint: it's still a very BAD thing.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
21-09-2019 21:37
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1513)
All you are doing by cutting the economy in half, is through half down the toilet, meaning half the people are going to do without, not less, but with nothing at all. You would have to kill off half the people, or simply let them die. The only persons who would think your ideas on economics, are 'great', are like Bernie Sanders, who never actually had to work for a living. Maybe you never actually had to work at a real job. Maybe there was always a roof over your head, and food on the table, regardless of whether you worked or not. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people the live with mom and dad, most of their adult life. Wonder if any make it to retirement age, before the parents pass...

The economy must grow with the population, if you want people to be happy and well fed. A slow economy, is rough times, people have trouble with expenses. Not actually a bad thing, in short periods, reminds people that jobs and money have value, maybe be a little more responsible with their spending and credit. Unfortunately, the democrats rush to the rescue every-time, throw a lot of money around to stimulate the economy, artificially. Doesn't really fix the problem, just shifts it on to somebody else's watch.
21-09-2019 21:41
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10253)
keepit wrote:
Harvey,
My attempts to discuss economics aren't meant to be off topic. They're meant to be explanations of how halving the economy would halve halve CO2 production.

By destroying the economy???

keepit wrote:
So --- dollars are convertible into treasuries and back into dollars

No. The treasury is not a currency. I believe you are trying to discuss government bonds?
keepit wrote:
just like mass is interconvertible into energy and back under the right circumstances.

No. It is not convertible at all. Mass IS energy.
keepit wrote:
Take student debt, i think i heard it is 1.2 trillion. It's owed by students mostly. If that debt is forgiven, the country as a whole owes the 1.2 trill. No real change in the amount of debt. Just redistribution.

No, theft. I don't want to make the loan.

Further, since you talking about canceling all debt, why does transferring the debt to someone else erase it?


The Parrot Killer
22-09-2019 00:13
keepit
★★★☆☆
(783)
Harvey,
I just meant that everyone would work half as many hours, produce half as much GDP and half as much CO2.
We don't need half the crap we buy anyway.
I'm just speaking in general terms here.
22-09-2019 00:17
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1529)
keepit wrote:
Harvey,
I just meant that everyone would work half as many hours, produce half as much GDP and half as much CO2.
We don't need half the crap we buy anyway.
I'm just speaking in general terms here.


You start by cutting your food in half. See how that goes.

Do you not understand that people buying crap they don't need equals jobs?

Jobs equals people feeding themselves and their families.


spot-
Into the Night is also has delusions of comptance
Edited on 22-09-2019 00:17
22-09-2019 00:23
keepit
★★★☆☆
(783)
Gas,
We don't need half the crap we buy. If we don't buy it there will be less man hours of work necessary but that doesn't mean lost jobs, just that people would work half as much.
So much of our paychecks goes to crap, we don't need that much paycheck if we don't buy the crap.
Edited on 22-09-2019 00:31
22-09-2019 00:33
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1529)
keepit wrote:
Gas,
We don't need half the crap we buy. If we don't buy it there will be less man hours of work necessary but that doesn't mean lost jobs, just that people would work half as much.
So much of our paychecks goes to crap, we don't that much paycheck if we don't buy the crap.


I don't need a fishing pole.
I don't need a set of golf clubs.
I do enjoy fishing and golf very much.

It was YOU that suggested if we 1/2 everything, we'll have more times for these things. Now you won't let me have crap I don't need?

I'm so confused!!!


spot-
Into the Night is also has delusions of comptance
22-09-2019 00:36
keepit
★★★☆☆
(783)
ITN,
"Destroying the economy" is only in your mind.
"Treasuries" being the same as Treasury is incorrect.
"Mass is energy" is close enough for govt work.
Taxes being "theft" is only in your mind.
22-09-2019 00:42
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1529)
takeit wrote:
ITN,...Taxes being "theft" is only in your mind.


Fine. Try larcency. It may work better for you. Yes, we pay our taxes voluntarily.....but if you don't pay them, larceny will occur.

Larceny is the trespassory taking and carrying away of personal goods from the possession of another with the intention to steal. For larceny to occur, three conditions must be met: (1) the goods must be removed from the possession of another without the owner's consent; (2) the goods must not only be taken but also "carried away," a requirement that is highly formalistic and is satisfied by any movement of the entire object, however slight; and (3) there must be an intention to steal, which is ordinarily defined as an intention to deprive the owner permanently of his property.


spot-
Into the Night is also has delusions of comptance
Edited on 22-09-2019 00:43
22-09-2019 00:44
keepit
★★★☆☆
(783)
Gas,
I want you to be able to fish and golf.
I want the treasury and fed to pay off mortgage debt and interest debt so we don't have to. That will leave more money for golf clubs, etc.
The fed and treasury can pay off mortgage interest and other interest with fancy financing. I can't say exactly how but one way would be to exchange the treasuries that foreigners own for cash the we would print. Those dollars would go to foreign soil. That would cut the interest on debt that we have to pay by a lot. The world economy is growing so much that the dollars could be easily absorbed.
Also, we don't need to spend so much on national defense i think, because we already spend as much as the rest of the world according to what i heard.
Also , we don't need all the jet planes and fancy cars and mcmansions. I know you've complained about those before. I complain as well.
22-09-2019 00:47
keepit
★★★☆☆
(783)
Gas,
Taxes aren't theft. The legislators negotiate the amounts to be taxed to fund the services we receive.
I remember when, if we didn't like something, we would move to canada.

How about this? If someone moves to canada, should they be allowed to skip out on their share of the national debt?
Edited on 22-09-2019 01:00
22-09-2019 01:11
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1529)
Takeit wrote:
Gas,
I want you to be able to fish and golf.

Good. Who will make the unnecessary golf carts, clubs, balls, tees, bags, and beer? 1/2 those guys just lost their jobs.

Who will make the unnecessary poles, reels, line, hooks, lures, tackle boxes, minnow buckets, and beer? 1/2 those guys just lost their jobs.

Takeit wrote:I want the treasury and fed to pay off mortgage debt and interest debt so we don't have to.

Even if they could, what kind of spoiled brat society would that make us? We've all seen the brat at the grocery store. I'd like to help them earn their right to cry.

Takeit wrote:That will leave more money for golf clubs, etc.

No spoiled brats on my golf course please.

Takeit wrote:The fed and treasury can pay off mortgage interest and other interest with fancy financing. I can't say exactly how but one way would be to exchange the treasuries that foreigners own for cash the we would print.

How do you not see how this instantaneously make the dollar worthless. It would also very much piss off the nations that loaned us the money in good faith.

What if you loaned someone $20 and they repaid you with a nickel?

Takeit wrote:Those dollars would go to foreign soil. That would cut the interest on debt that we have to pay by a lot.

Wait a minute...why is there debt? I thought we just printed more dollars to eliminate debt.

Takeit wrote:The world economy is growing so much that the dollars could be easily absorbed.

Yup, absorbed in landfills. Printing that much money would make them worthless.

Takeit wrote:Also, we don't need to spend so much on national defense i think, because we already spend as much as the rest of the world

Notice we haven't been attacked in a while?

Takeit wrote:according to what i heard.

...as long as you heard it somewhere....


Takeit wrote:Also ,we don't need all the jet planes and fancy cars and mcmansions.

Sure, and I don't need my golf clubs or fishing pole

Takeit wrote:I know you've complained about those before.

I have not....maybe Al Gore's jet...makes him a huge hypocrite. However, he has every right to his money, his jet and his free time how he sees fit.

Takeit wrote:I complain as well.

Your choice. You also have every right to your opinions, beliefs, and religion. You live how ever you see fit to suit yourself. Just don't send me the bill for it.


spot-
Into the Night is also has delusions of comptance
22-09-2019 01:17
keepit
★★★☆☆
(783)
Gas,
Noone would lose their jobs. They would just work half as much.
There are a lot of details that would need to be worked out.
It would be some work to make things equitable.
I think there's trouble coming in the form of currencies and global warming. This might head them both off.
22-09-2019 01:31
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1529)
takeit wrote:
Gas,
Noone would lose their jobs. They would just work half as much.

Oh, my bad. Now there is double the free time available and double the demand for golf clubs and fishing poles....but only 1/2 the production.
Supply and demand...what happens now? I'll give you a hint. Only 1/2 the population can afford to golf and fish anymore.

takeit wrote:There are a lot of details that would need to be worked out.

Uh huh.


spot-
Into the Night is also has delusions of comptance
Edited on 22-09-2019 01:41
22-09-2019 01:39
keepit
★★★☆☆
(783)
Gas, you make a good point about other countries loaning us money in good faith.
What i'm talking about should be done at a measured pace so as not to disrupt things.
Not to be draconian but our financial system may be in trouble and maybe those other countries would be happy to get paid. It's better than us defaulting, which probably won't happen though?
22-09-2019 01:41
keepit
★★★☆☆
(783)
Gas,
Are you one of these guys that buys a new driver every year because the manufacturer says their driver hits the ball 10 yards further. If that was true, today's drivers would hit the ball 200 yards longer than the drivers of 20 years ago.
This is an example of us buying too much crap.
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