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12V DC motor question


12V DC motor question06-02-2024 01:50
GasGuzzler
★★★★★
(3011)
I am on a mission to build the ultimate fishing kayak. It will be a semi hillbilly build, and if it performs like I want it to, I will put the money into a high quality vessel next year. I've got a lot of logistics to hammer out. Here's my question for the board....

If I put a 60 amp 12v DC motor speed controller on the 12v trolling motor, will it draw less amps at lower speed than higher speeds, or will it effectively act like a 120v dimmer switch which is essentially a power dump.

I have an older trolling motor on my Lund fishing boat, but the controls are all jacked up. The motor is strong, and I would like to cut the shaft down to customize to the kayak and wire it to a reversing speed controller with an output monitor.

I will only be packing one lithium 100 amp/hr battery. I'm seeing guys get 30-50 miles out of a charge if the speed is kept low around 2-3 mph. I'm not expecting that with the older inefficient motor, but I'd like to get across the lake and back.

Any "input" would be appreciated. Thanks!


Radiation will not penetrate a perfect insulator, thus as I said space is not a perfect insulator.- Swan
06-02-2024 02:11
James_
★★★★★
(2273)
GasGuzzler wrote:
I am on a mission to build the ultimate fishing kayak. It will be a semi hillbilly build, and if it performs like I want it to, I will put the money into a high quality vessel next year. I've got a lot of logistics to hammer out. Here's my question for the board....

If I put a 60 amp 12v DC motor speed controller on the 12v trolling motor, will it draw less amps at lower speed than higher speeds, or will it effectively act like a 120v dimmer switch which is essentially a power dump.

I have an older trolling motor on my Lund fishing boat, but the controls are all jacked up. The motor is strong, and I would like to cut the shaft down to customize to the kayak and wire it to a reversing speed controller with an output monitor.

I will only be packing one lithium 100 amp/hr battery. I'm seeing guys get 30-50 miles out of a charge if the speed is kept low around 2-3 mph. I'm not expecting that with the older inefficient motor, but I'd like to get across the lake and back.

Any "input" would be appreciated. Thanks!



This could be garbage. Any chance you could hook up fuses before your motor controller? Then each position of your motor controller would be fed by the appropriate number of fuses. I know with ballast type resistors that if they have a short in them, might be how excess energy can be dumped.
4 - 15 amp or 3 - 20 amp fuses (or lower rating) would give you the power you need. I'd also check the contacts on the motor controller and the motor. If you have something like a Fluke meter then you could see the line current feeding each device. If you have something robbing you of electricity then you might be able to find it.
06-02-2024 02:25
GasGuzzler
★★★★★
(3011)
James_ wrote:
This could be garbage. Any chance you could hook up fuses before your motor controller?


I don't currently own a speed controller, but I was thinking something like this. If it craps out in a year, no big deal it was $25.

Other option is spending more on a newer trolling motor and breaking down those controls to put in some type of panel, but I really don't want to spend that kind of money on a hillbilly build. This is a prototype boat to work out the bugs. If I like it, I'll drop the $ next year on new and efficient quality stuff.


Radiation will not penetrate a perfect insulator, thus as I said space is not a perfect insulator.- Swan
Attached image:

06-02-2024 10:54
James_
★★★★★
(2273)
GasGuzzler wrote:
James_ wrote:
This could be garbage. Any chance you could hook up fuses before your motor controller?


I don't currently own a speed controller, but I was thinking something like this. If it craps out in a year, no big deal it was $25.

Other option is spending more on a newer trolling motor and breaking down those controls to put in some type of panel, but I really don't want to spend that kind of money on a hillbilly build. This is a prototype boat to work out the bugs. If I like it, I'll drop the $ next year on new and efficient quality stuff.



There's this conversation you might find interesting. https://robotics.stackexchange.com/questions/8475/how-can-i-reduce-a-motors-maximum-current-draw

For a prototype, attaching fuses to a board is allowed. As was discussed in the link, 60 amp would be the maximum load. When operating above normal load the current drained from your battery (batteries) might lose a lot of energy because of how hot the motor controller can get.
This aspect usually refers to thermodynamics and entropy. The more current you run through your controller allows for more entropy or energy to be wasted. If you operated your motor at different rpm then with a voltage meter you can check the current to your controller (that shouldn't change. And then you can check the current going to your engine.
Why this matters is then you can consider your battery. How long does a charge last? Older batteries will lose their charge more quickly or not be able to store 12v.
And depending on the load you place on your battery, how does this change the drain on it? When pulling more amps from it, does the life of the charge decrease at a faster rate? An example is when a pulling 10 amp load and a 20 amp load, the life of the battery should last twice as long as 10 amps.
I've read when it comes to converting energy using a fuel cell membrane that a lot of energy is wasted by the hot lead going to the motor.
https://robotics.stackexchange.com/questions/8475/how-can-i-reduce-a-motors-maximum-current-draw

Scroll down to docw009. The math he mentions is often overlooked. The size and length of the line because of resistance. What you might need to do is a couple of tests with a voltage meter. Then you'd know what's draing your battery. This should help you to know what to expect as long as your battery holding a charge goes. Then if you know how fast the current your fishing in moves increases the distance that you're traveling in.
Edited on 06-02-2024 10:57
06-02-2024 17:29
James_
★★★★★
(2273)
After I get home I'll design something on SketchUp so you'll see how 3 or 4 fuses can support running in series. https://lithiumhub.com/series-vs-parallel/

And then you can use a bolt on top of the contacts for the fuse's discharge. Then the bolt becomes hot. Then that can feed your controller or whatever you use to change your Motor's speed. In the link, think of your electric motor as the battery. You know that fuses will blow if too much current tires to pass through it.
06-02-2024 17:48
James_
★★★★★
(2273)
After I get home I'll design something on SketchUp so you'll see how 3 or 4 fuses can support running in series. https://lithiumhub.com/series-vs-parallel/

And then you can use a bolt on top of the contacts for the fuse's discharge. Then the bolt becomes hot. Then that can feed your controller or whatever you use to change your Motor's speed. In the link, think of your electric motor as the battery. You know that fuses will blow if too much current tries to pass through it.
Edited on 06-02-2024 17:49
06-02-2024 17:49
GasGuzzler
★★★★★
(3011)
James_ wrote:
After I get home I'll design something on SketchUp so you'll see how 3 or 4 fuses can support running in series. https://lithiumhub.com/series-vs-parallel/

And then you can use a bolt on top of the contacts for the fuse's discharge. Then the bolt becomes hot. Then that can feed your controller or whatever you use to change your Motor's speed. In the link, think of your electric motor as the battery. You know that fuses will blow if too much current tires to pass through it.


James, you are overthinking things again. It's a 12v motor-not rated for 24 so wiring in series is out of the question.

If all the other logistics work well, next year I will get a newer 24v motor and add another battery.

Right now I just want to know if a speed controller like the one pictured above will drain a battery just as fast on low speed as it does on high speed.

New lithium 100amp/hr batteries have a Bluetooth app so you can see your current draw in real time. So again, is a cheap controller fine or are they just a power dump that will leave me paddling upstream?

There seems to be a huge price difference in controllers claiming to do the exact same thing.... anywhere from $12 to $400. What's the difference?


Radiation will not penetrate a perfect insulator, thus as I said space is not a perfect insulator.- Swan
07-02-2024 01:52
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22228)
GasGuzzler wrote:
I am on a mission to build the ultimate fishing kayak. It will be a semi hillbilly build, and if it performs like I want it to, I will put the money into a high quality vessel next year. I've got a lot of logistics to hammer out. Here's my question for the board....

An interesting project! You'll have to keep us informed how it turns out!
GasGuzzler wrote:
If I put a 60 amp 12v DC motor speed controller on the 12v trolling motor, will it draw less amps at lower speed than higher speeds, or will it effectively act like a 120v dimmer switch which is essentially a power dump.

Most speed controllers use a duty cycle to drive a motor. That means the motor receives pulses of power, with the pulses getting wider and wider until they merge into continuous power. Each pulse provides full current to the motor. It does not act like a dimmer switch (which is basically just a rheostat (in other words, a variable resistor).
GasGuzzler wrote:
I have an older trolling motor on my Lund fishing boat, but the controls are all jacked up. The motor is strong, and I would like to cut the shaft down to customize to the kayak and wire it to a reversing speed controller with an output monitor.

If you use a duty cycle speed controller (most of them are), it should work just fine. Just make sure the motor itself doesn't draw more current than the speed controller can handle.
GasGuzzler wrote:
I will only be packing one lithium 100 amp/hr battery. I'm seeing guys get 30-50 miles out of a charge if the speed is kept low around 2-3 mph. I'm not expecting that with the older inefficient motor, but I'd like to get across the lake and back.

Assuming your lake isn't 30 miles wide, you should have no problem! Of course, testing the range of the system should be done in a way to make it to shore in the event range isn't what you projected (such as cruising along a shore for that distance before taking it out in the middle of the lake).
GasGuzzler wrote:
Any "input" would be appreciated. Thanks!

Hope I helped a little. Again, keep us informed of the progress of your project. Sounds like fun!


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
07-02-2024 01:54
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22228)
GasGuzzler wrote:
James_ wrote:
This could be garbage. Any chance you could hook up fuses before your motor controller?


I don't currently own a speed controller, but I was thinking something like this. If it craps out in a year, no big deal it was $25.

Other option is spending more on a newer trolling motor and breaking down those controls to put in some type of panel, but I really don't want to spend that kind of money on a hillbilly build. This is a prototype boat to work out the bugs. If I like it, I'll drop the $ next year on new and efficient quality stuff.

That's a duty cycle controller (PWM is duty cycle). Just the ticket.
Oh, and fusing is simple. It may already be built into the controller itself.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
07-02-2024 01:55
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22228)
GasGuzzler wrote:
James_ wrote:
After I get home I'll design something on SketchUp so you'll see how 3 or 4 fuses can support running in series. https://lithiumhub.com/series-vs-parallel/

And then you can use a bolt on top of the contacts for the fuse's discharge. Then the bolt becomes hot. Then that can feed your controller or whatever you use to change your Motor's speed. In the link, think of your electric motor as the battery. You know that fuses will blow if too much current tires to pass through it.


James, you are overthinking things again. It's a 12v motor-not rated for 24 so wiring in series is out of the question.

If all the other logistics work well, next year I will get a newer 24v motor and add another battery.

Right now I just want to know if a speed controller like the one pictured above will drain a battery just as fast on low speed as it does on high speed.

New lithium 100amp/hr batteries have a Bluetooth app so you can see your current draw in real time. So again, is a cheap controller fine or are they just a power dump that will leave me paddling upstream?

There seems to be a huge price difference in controllers claiming to do the exact same thing.... anywhere from $12 to $400. What's the difference?

No, it won't. When running at low speed, the pulse width is quite narrow, and the time the motor is receiving power is minimal, giving an average low current. The battery will last just fine.

The biggest difference in controllers is features, and some folks just charge too much for what the controller does. More expensive is not necessarily a better controller.

The best bet is to look 'em over, figure out what features you want, and get the cheapest controller to fulfill the job.

Like I said, they all to PWM. More expensive ones try to make a nice sine wave out of it (really unnecessary for a trolling motor!) which gives slightly better efficiency. It really comes down to what you need vs the fancy marketing bullshit you're willing to pay for.

(Doesn't it always!
)


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
Edited on 07-02-2024 02:00
07-02-2024 02:48
James_
★★★★★
(2273)
Into the Night wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
James_ wrote:
After I get home I'll design something on SketchUp so you'll see how 3 or 4 fuses can support running in series. https://lithiumhub.com/series-vs-parallel/

And then you can use a bolt on top of the contacts for the fuse's discharge. Then the bolt becomes hot. Then that can feed your controller or whatever you use to change your Motor's speed. In the link, think of your electric motor as the battery. You know that fuses will blow if too much current tires to pass through it.


James, you are overthinking things again. It's a 12v motor-not rated for 24 so wiring in series is out of the question.

If all the other logistics work well, next year I will get a newer 24v motor and add another battery.

Right now I just want to know if a speed controller like the one pictured above will drain a battery just as fast on low speed as it does on high speed.

New lithium 100amp/hr batteries have a Bluetooth app so you can see your current draw in real time. So again, is a cheap controller fine or are they just a power dump that will leave me paddling upstream?

There seems to be a huge price difference in controllers claiming to do the exact same thing.... anywhere from $12 to $400. What's the difference?

No, it won't. When running at low speed, the pulse width is quite narrow, and the time the motor is receiving power is minimal, giving an average low current. The battery will last just fine.

The biggest difference in controllers is features, and some folks just charge too much for what the controller does. More expensive is not necessarily a better controller.

The best bet is to look 'em over, figure out what features you want, and get the cheapest controller to fulfill the job.

Like I said, they all to PWM. More expensive ones try to make a nice sine wave out of it (really unnecessary for a trolling motor!) which gives slightly better efficiency. It really comes down to what you need vs the fancy marketing bullshit you're willing to pay for.

(Doesn't it always!
)



For what he wants to know he'll still need to check all electrical connections.
Worn brushes on an electric motor will rob the motor of power. And with most electrical connections, a wire brush will work.
Old batteries can't hold a full charge or will lose it quickly. And can he check the
battery acid levels? It's possible for the distance he wants to cover, he might need 2 batteries. If so then running them parallel will increase the amps to the motor without increasing voltage.
07-02-2024 03:42
GasGuzzler
★★★★★
(3011)
James_ wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
James_ wrote:
After I get home I'll design something on SketchUp so you'll see how 3 or 4 fuses can support running in series. https://lithiumhub.com/series-vs-parallel/

And then you can use a bolt on top of the contacts for the fuse's discharge. Then the bolt becomes hot. Then that can feed your controller or whatever you use to change your Motor's speed. In the link, think of your electric motor as the battery. You know that fuses will blow if too much current tires to pass through it.


James, you are overthinking things again. It's a 12v motor-not rated for 24 so wiring in series is out of the question.

If all the other logistics work well, next year I will get a newer 24v motor and add another battery.

Right now I just want to know if a speed controller like the one pictured above will drain a battery just as fast on low speed as it does on high speed.

New lithium 100amp/hr batteries have a Bluetooth app so you can see your current draw in real time. So again, is a cheap controller fine or are they just a power dump that will leave me paddling upstream?

There seems to be a huge price difference in controllers claiming to do the exact same thing.... anywhere from $12 to $400. What's the difference?

No, it won't. When running at low speed, the pulse width is quite narrow, and the time the motor is receiving power is minimal, giving an average low current. The battery will last just fine.

The biggest difference in controllers is features, and some folks just charge too much for what the controller does. More expensive is not necessarily a better controller.

The best bet is to look 'em over, figure out what features you want, and get the cheapest controller to fulfill the job.

Like I said, they all to PWM. More expensive ones try to make a nice sine wave out of it (really unnecessary for a trolling motor!) which gives slightly better efficiency. It really comes down to what you need vs the fancy marketing bullshit you're willing to pay for.

(Doesn't it always!
)



For what he wants to know he'll still need to check all electrical connections.
Worn brushes on an electric motor will rob the motor of power. And with most electrical connections, a wire brush will work.
Old batteries can't hold a full charge or will lose it quickly. And can he check the
battery acid levels? It's possible for the distance he wants to cover, he might need 2 batteries. If so then running them parallel will increase the amps to the motor without increasing voltage.


Not doing lead acid. Takes 2 batteries to do what one lithium can do, and it's 4 times the weight. I'm not a small dude, so I will be pushing the weight limit of the kayak as it is. If I need 2 lithiums, so be it. At $200-300 each for a hillbilly build, I'll see what one can do first. Just stay by the phone. I might need a ride.


Radiation will not penetrate a perfect insulator, thus as I said space is not a perfect insulator.- Swan
07-02-2024 04:30
GasGuzzler
★★★★★
(3011)
Into the Night wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
James_ wrote:
After I get home I'll design something on SketchUp so you'll see how 3 or 4 fuses can support running in series. https://lithiumhub.com/series-vs-parallel/

And then you can use a bolt on top of the contacts for the fuse's discharge. Then the bolt becomes hot. Then that can feed your controller or whatever you use to change your Motor's speed. In the link, think of your electric motor as the battery. You know that fuses will blow if too much current tires to pass through it.


James, you are overthinking things again. It's a 12v motor-not rated for 24 so wiring in series is out of the question.

If all the other logistics work well, next year I will get a newer 24v motor and add another battery.

Right now I just want to know if a speed controller like the one pictured above will drain a battery just as fast on low speed as it does on high speed.

New lithium 100amp/hr batteries have a Bluetooth app so you can see your current draw in real time. So again, is a cheap controller fine or are they just a power dump that will leave me paddling upstream?

There seems to be a huge price difference in controllers claiming to do the exact same thing.... anywhere from $12 to $400. What's the difference?

No, it won't. When running at low speed, the pulse width is quite narrow, and the time the motor is receiving power is minimal, giving an average low current. The battery will last just fine.

The biggest difference in controllers is features, and some folks just charge too much for what the controller does. More expensive is not necessarily a better controller.

The best bet is to look 'em over, figure out what features you want, and get the cheapest controller to fulfill the job.

Like I said, they all to PWM. More expensive ones try to make a nice sine wave out of it (really unnecessary for a trolling motor!) which gives slightly better efficiency. It really comes down to what you need vs the fancy marketing bullshit you're willing to pay for.

(Doesn't it always!
)


Thanks! This is the answer I was looking and hoping for.

Yes, it's going to be a fun project. I'm not a boat guy. I did inherit the Lund fishing boat. It's nice, with a 90 hp Mercury on it. Used it a few times but it's not my style. I live 5 minutes from a great fishing river. Lots of pike and walleye. I like to get home from work, grab a bite to eat, and be fishing in 10 minutes. There's some good lakes around too and I will fish those too, but mostly I use the small river close to home.

The boat just takes so much work getting in and out of the water, tough to navigate shallow waters (V bottom) and if I fish till dark in June, by the time I load up the boat and get everything put away it's after 11:00 when I finally sit to unwind for the night. If I'm lucky I'm sleeping by 1am and 6am rolls around too quickly for this old fart.

A kayak can simply be tossed in the truck in a fraction of the time.

A lot of challenges in this project. With a kayak, I am pretty much stuck in the seat. No hopping around to make adjustments or grab this or that. Everything must be done within the reach of my ass.

With a bow mounted motor I want to be able to

1) rotate the motor with electric joystick steering
2) rotate the motor 180 instantly for a dead stop and be able to push back upstream
3) control motor speed and mph precisely with a no step speed control.
4) be able to instantly rotate the prop to shallow depth when approaching rocks
5) Be able to rotate prop out of the water instantly for a nice sandy lading.

All this from hand controls on a vessel that was never designed to have a motor. Should be good fun.



Here's my river. Nothing crazy. It's just a peaceful place.


Radiation will not penetrate a perfect insulator, thus as I said space is not a perfect insulator.- Swan
Attached image:

07-02-2024 06:31
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(14718)
GasGuzzler wrote: I am on a mission to build the ultimate fishing kayak.

... full of bacon?

GasGuzzler wrote: It will be a semi hillbilly build, and if it performs like I want it to, I will put the money into a high quality vessel next year.

Make sure it's a hybrid, i.e. runs on both solar and wind power.

GasGuzzler wrote: Here's my question for the board....

If I put a 60 amp 12v DC motor speed controller on the 12v trolling motor, will it draw less amps at lower speed than higher speeds,

Does it look like attaching a speed controller will have any effect on a trolling motor?



GasGuzzler wrote: Any "input" would be appreciated.

I know. You're welcome.
07-02-2024 06:39
James_
★★★★★
(2273)
I said parallel. You'd have the amps added together and not their voltage. I should've said nothing and apologize for interfering in your project.

p.s., I also never said what type of battery.
Edited on 07-02-2024 07:20
07-02-2024 16:47
GasGuzzler
★★★★★
(3011)
IBdaMann wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote: I am on a mission to build the ultimate fishing kayak.

... full of bacon?

Climate change has displaced several thousand head if hogs around here, so a boatful of bacon is difficult to achieve. No clue where the swine climate refugees are hanging out. Probably somewhere enjoying peanut butter toast with Frank and Sven. However, this is a fishing thread. Please stay on topic.
IBdaMann wrote:
Make sure it's a hybrid, i.e. runs on both solar and wind power.

I'm terrified of the solar panel idea. Pike and walleye are cold water fish. Where will the excess waste heat go? Straight into the water, effectively shutting down the feeding frenzy. Wind power is even worse. It will generate so much free juice it'll just blow all my fuses. However, this is a swine thread. Try to stay on topic.



Now we're getting somewhere. This gets into direct fuel injection, and that is certainly one big ass injector. I like it. I could show the world how methane has been overlooked. However, this is a fossil fuel thread. Please try to stay on topic.


Radiation will not penetrate a perfect insulator, thus as I said space is not a perfect insulator.- Swan
07-02-2024 16:59
GasGuzzler
★★★★★
(3011)
James_ wrote:
p.s., I also never said what type of battery.

James_ wrote:
And can he check the
battery acid levels?

I was unaware that you can check the acid levels in a lithium battery.


Radiation will not penetrate a perfect insulator, thus as I said space is not a perfect insulator.- Swan
08-02-2024 00:48
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22228)
James_ wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
James_ wrote:
After I get home I'll design something on SketchUp so you'll see how 3 or 4 fuses can support running in series. https://lithiumhub.com/series-vs-parallel/

And then you can use a bolt on top of the contacts for the fuse's discharge. Then the bolt becomes hot. Then that can feed your controller or whatever you use to change your Motor's speed. In the link, think of your electric motor as the battery. You know that fuses will blow if too much current tires to pass through it.


James, you are overthinking things again. It's a 12v motor-not rated for 24 so wiring in series is out of the question.

If all the other logistics work well, next year I will get a newer 24v motor and add another battery.

Right now I just want to know if a speed controller like the one pictured above will drain a battery just as fast on low speed as it does on high speed.

New lithium 100amp/hr batteries have a Bluetooth app so you can see your current draw in real time. So again, is a cheap controller fine or are they just a power dump that will leave me paddling upstream?

There seems to be a huge price difference in controllers claiming to do the exact same thing.... anywhere from $12 to $400. What's the difference?

No, it won't. When running at low speed, the pulse width is quite narrow, and the time the motor is receiving power is minimal, giving an average low current. The battery will last just fine.

The biggest difference in controllers is features, and some folks just charge too much for what the controller does. More expensive is not necessarily a better controller.

The best bet is to look 'em over, figure out what features you want, and get the cheapest controller to fulfill the job.

Like I said, they all to PWM. More expensive ones try to make a nice sine wave out of it (really unnecessary for a trolling motor!) which gives slightly better efficiency. It really comes down to what you need vs the fancy marketing bullshit you're willing to pay for.

(Doesn't it always!
)



For what he wants to know he'll still need to check all electrical connections.

He's building it, dummy. There aren't any electrical connections yet.
James_ wrote:
Worn brushes on an electric motor will rob the motor of power.

Assuming the motor has brushes. Why would they be worn?
James_ wrote:
And with most electrical connections, a wire brush will work.

You can't clean motor brushes with a wire brush. It will will destroy the motor brush. You can't 'unwear' them using any kind of brush either.
James_ wrote:
Old batteries can't hold a full charge or will lose it quickly.

What 'old battery'?
James_ wrote:
And can he check the battery acid levels?

He's not using an acid battery.
James_ wrote:
It's possible for the distance he wants to cover, he might need 2 batteries.

Two batteries is still called a battery.
James_ wrote:
If so then running them parallel will increase the amps to the motor without increasing voltage.

It will not increase the amps to the motor. That's determined by the motor and ONLY the motor.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
08-02-2024 00:49
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22228)
GasGuzzler wrote:
James_ wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
James_ wrote:
After I get home I'll design something on SketchUp so you'll see how 3 or 4 fuses can support running in series. https://lithiumhub.com/series-vs-parallel/

And then you can use a bolt on top of the contacts for the fuse's discharge. Then the bolt becomes hot. Then that can feed your controller or whatever you use to change your Motor's speed. In the link, think of your electric motor as the battery. You know that fuses will blow if too much current tires to pass through it.


James, you are overthinking things again. It's a 12v motor-not rated for 24 so wiring in series is out of the question.

If all the other logistics work well, next year I will get a newer 24v motor and add another battery.

Right now I just want to know if a speed controller like the one pictured above will drain a battery just as fast on low speed as it does on high speed.

New lithium 100amp/hr batteries have a Bluetooth app so you can see your current draw in real time. So again, is a cheap controller fine or are they just a power dump that will leave me paddling upstream?

There seems to be a huge price difference in controllers claiming to do the exact same thing.... anywhere from $12 to $400. What's the difference?

No, it won't. When running at low speed, the pulse width is quite narrow, and the time the motor is receiving power is minimal, giving an average low current. The battery will last just fine.

The biggest difference in controllers is features, and some folks just charge too much for what the controller does. More expensive is not necessarily a better controller.

The best bet is to look 'em over, figure out what features you want, and get the cheapest controller to fulfill the job.

Like I said, they all to PWM. More expensive ones try to make a nice sine wave out of it (really unnecessary for a trolling motor!) which gives slightly better efficiency. It really comes down to what you need vs the fancy marketing bullshit you're willing to pay for.

(Doesn't it always!
)



For what he wants to know he'll still need to check all electrical connections.
Worn brushes on an electric motor will rob the motor of power. And with most electrical connections, a wire brush will work.
Old batteries can't hold a full charge or will lose it quickly. And can he check the
battery acid levels? It's possible for the distance he wants to cover, he might need 2 batteries. If so then running them parallel will increase the amps to the motor without increasing voltage.


Not doing lead acid. Takes 2 batteries to do what one lithium can do, and it's 4 times the weight. I'm not a small dude, so I will be pushing the weight limit of the kayak as it is. If I need 2 lithiums, so be it. At $200-300 each for a hillbilly build, I'll see what one can do first. Just stay by the phone. I might need a ride.
Just pack a paddle with you. Always a good idea in any boat.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
08-02-2024 01:01
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(22228)
GasGuzzler wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
(Doesn't it always!
)


Thanks! This is the answer I was looking and hoping for.

Glad I was of some help!
GasGuzzler wrote:
Yes, it's going to be a fun project.

Enjoy it!
GasGuzzler wrote:
I'm not a boat guy.

Heh. You really are, you just don't want to admit it!

The key for any boat is maintaining center of gravity, particularly on a small boat like a kayak.
Too much weight in the bow or the stern and the thing will never behave properly. Spread the weight of the battery/motor combination around the craft. Don't forget your OWN weight of course! It's fortunately nicely centered in the craft.

The same equations for doing weight and balance for aircraft applies to boats as well. Basically, you can just take the weight of significant components and add them up to get a total weight (including your own!). Each weight has a moment away from the center of the craft. You just add these up as well and divide by the number of items you are using. This will give you a combined weight and moment, showing where the center of gravity is going to wind up. You want it somewhere near your seat. If it's there, and the weight is not enough to sink your craft outright, it will behave well in the water.

There are internet sites showing you how to calculate weight and balance (It doesn't matter if it's for aircraft!). It's the same equation. Some aircraft manufacturers like Cessna publish a chart instead...useless for you. Find a site where you actually calculate it.

In general, the motor and the battery are the significant loads. Since you want a bow mounted motor, use an aft mounted battery. That should help keep your center somewhere near your seat.


GasGuzzler wrote:
I did inherit the Lund fishing boat. It's nice, with a 90 hp Mercury on it. Used it a few times but it's not my style. I live 5 minutes from a great fishing river. Lots of pike and walleye. I like to get home from work, grab a bite to eat, and be fishing in 10 minutes. There's some good lakes around too and I will fish those too, but mostly I use the small river close to home.

The boat just takes so much work getting in and out of the water, tough to navigate shallow waters (V bottom) and if I fish till dark in June, by the time I load up the boat and get everything put away it's after 11:00 when I finally sit to unwind for the night. If I'm lucky I'm sleeping by 1am and 6am rolls around too quickly for this old fart.

Yeah. The boat ramp is always a hassle.
GasGuzzler wrote:
A kayak can simply be tossed in the truck in a fraction of the time.

It will be heavier with the motor and battery in it, but you should be able to manage it a lot better than that boat ramp! Sometimes a lightweight cart that you weld together for it can help.
GasGuzzler wrote:
A lot of challenges in this project. With a kayak, I am pretty much stuck in the seat. No hopping around to make adjustments or grab this or that. Everything must be done within the reach of my ass.

Heh. This is where you get creative with your control system. I have faith in you! You device a workable system!
GasGuzzler wrote:
With a bow mounted motor I want to be able to

1) rotate the motor with electric joystick steering
2) rotate the motor 180 instantly for a dead stop and be able to push back upstream
3) control motor speed and mph precisely with a no step speed control.
4) be able to instantly rotate the prop to shallow depth when approaching rocks
5) Be able to rotate prop out of the water instantly for a nice sandy lading.

Sounds like neat design. You've obviously though this through on what you want! That's the biggest hurdle right there! Grab a pencil and paper and sketch it out so you don't forget anything while you are building. That way you won't lose the big picture (easy to do while you are building!).
GasGuzzler wrote:
All this from hand controls on a vessel that was never designed to have a motor. Should be good fun.

I've seen kayaks with small motors on them. Properly designed and balanced, there should be no problem.
GasGuzzler wrote:
Here's my river. Nothing crazy. It's just a peaceful place.
Very nice. That motor won't make much noise to disturb the peace of that place either! Not with the way you intend to run it!


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
Edited on 08-02-2024 01:09
08-02-2024 04:09
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(14718)
Into the Night wrote:Too much weight in the bow or the stern and the thing will never behave properly. Spread the weight of the battery/motor combination around the craft. Don't forget your OWN weight of course! It's fortunately nicely centered in the craft.

The same equations for doing weight and balance for aircraft applies to boats as well. Basically, you can just take the weight of significant components and add them up to get a total weight (including your own!). Each weight has a moment away from the center of the craft. You just add these up as well and divide by the number of items you are using. This will give you a combined weight and moment, showing where the center of gravity is going to wind up. You want it somewhere near your seat. If it's there, and the weight is not enough to sink your craft outright, it will behave well in the water.

What is GasGuzzler to do with the bacon? I'm guessing that he'll just have to lose a little weight, or spread himself around a bit better.



I have some name recommendations:
Bacon Baiter
Pork Punt
Trichinosis Trawler
Cured Cruiser
Cutter Coronary


.
11-02-2024 01:49
HarveyH55Profile picture★★★★★
(5197)
GasGuzzler wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
James_ wrote:
After I get home I'll design something on SketchUp so you'll see how 3 or 4 fuses can support running in series. https://lithiumhub.com/series-vs-parallel/

And then you can use a bolt on top of the contacts for the fuse's discharge. Then the bolt becomes hot. Then that can feed your controller or whatever you use to change your Motor's speed. In the link, think of your electric motor as the battery. You know that fuses will blow if too much current tires to pass through it.


James, you are overthinking things again. It's a 12v motor-not rated for 24 so wiring in series is out of the question.

If all the other logistics work well, next year I will get a newer 24v motor and add another battery.

Right now I just want to know if a speed controller like the one pictured above will drain a battery just as fast on low speed as it does on high speed.

New lithium 100amp/hr batteries have a Bluetooth app so you can see your current draw in real time. So again, is a cheap controller fine or are they just a power dump that will leave me paddling upstream?

There seems to be a huge price difference in controllers claiming to do the exact same thing.... anywhere from $12 to $400. What's the difference?

No, it won't. When running at low speed, the pulse width is quite narrow, and the time the motor is receiving power is minimal, giving an average low current. The battery will last just fine.

The biggest difference in controllers is features, and some folks just charge too much for what the controller does. More expensive is not necessarily a better controller.

The best bet is to look 'em over, figure out what features you want, and get the cheapest controller to fulfill the job.

Like I said, they all to PWM. More expensive ones try to make a nice sine wave out of it (really unnecessary for a trolling motor!) which gives slightly better efficiency. It really comes down to what you need vs the fancy marketing bullshit you're willing to pay for.

(Doesn't it always!
)


Thanks! This is the answer I was looking and hoping for.

Yes, it's going to be a fun project. I'm not a boat guy. I did inherit the Lund fishing boat. It's nice, with a 90 hp Mercury on it. Used it a few times but it's not my style. I live 5 minutes from a great fishing river. Lots of pike and walleye. I like to get home from work, grab a bite to eat, and be fishing in 10 minutes. There's some good lakes around too and I will fish those too, but mostly I use the small river close to home.

The boat just takes so much work getting in and out of the water, tough to navigate shallow waters (V bottom) and if I fish till dark in June, by the time I load up the boat and get everything put away it's after 11:00 when I finally sit to unwind for the night. If I'm lucky I'm sleeping by 1am and 6am rolls around too quickly for this old fart.

A kayak can simply be tossed in the truck in a fraction of the time.

A lot of challenges in this project. With a kayak, I am pretty much stuck in the seat. No hopping around to make adjustments or grab this or that. Everything must be done within the reach of my ass.

With a bow mounted motor I want to be able to

1) rotate the motor with electric joystick steering
2) rotate the motor 180 instantly for a dead stop and be able to push back upstream
3) control motor speed and mph precisely with a no step speed control.
4) be able to instantly rotate the prop to shallow depth when approaching rocks
5) Be able to rotate prop out of the water instantly for a nice sandy lading.

All this from hand controls on a vessel that was never designed to have a motor. Should be good fun.



Here's my river. Nothing crazy. It's just a peaceful place.


You'll need to waterproof the electronics...

You already have reverse on the controller. Should be instantaneous.

Steering, and depth, cable controls probably the cheapest, quickest, and most reliable, over electronic actuators. Add less weight, on no additional draw on your battery.

Haven't been able to get a handle on James's use of fuses to control (speed, or anything else). Fuses are for protection. Usually the wiring, so the insulation doesn't melt off, or start a fire. You should use some fuses though, and make sure your wires can handle the load. Shorts are possible, as well as the motor stalling. You'll briefly draw more current when reversing the motor, or just starting up. The controller should handle that for you though.
17-02-2024 06:56
GasGuzzler
★★★★★
(3011)
[quote]HarveyH55 wrote:
You'll need to waterproof the electronics...

Yes, that is something I've been pondering. I don't think I can, especially the speed governor, and does it need ventilation? Will it get too hot if it's sealed tight?

What about the Lithium batteries? (LifePO4 100ah x2) Do they need ventilation?

HarveyH55 wrote:
You already have reverse on the controller. Should be instantaneous.

True, but running the motor forward to push the boat backwards is best as the motor casing and lower fin offer some protection to the prop from logs and large stones.

HarveyH55 wrote:
Haven't been able to get a handle on James's use of fuses to control (speed, or anything else). Fuses are for protection. Usually the wiring, so the insulation doesn't melt off, or start a fire. You should use some fuses though, and make sure your wires can handle the load.


I can't make heads or tales of his rambling either. Yes, everything will be fused to the proper amperage and spares will be on board. Changing out a fuse is so much easier than paddling or calling a pissed off wife for a ride.


Radiation will not penetrate a perfect insulator, thus as I said space is not a perfect insulator.- Swan
17-02-2024 07:18
GasGuzzler
★★★★★
(3011)
IBdaMann wrote:
Into the Night wrote:Too much weight in the bow or the stern and the thing will never behave properly. Spread the weight of the battery/motor combination around the craft. Don't forget your OWN weight of course! It's fortunately nicely centered in the craft.

The same equations for doing weight and balance for aircraft applies to boats as well. Basically, you can just take the weight of significant components and add them up to get a total weight (including your own!). Each weight has a moment away from the center of the craft. You just add these up as well and divide by the number of items you are using. This will give you a combined weight and moment, showing where the center of gravity is going to wind up. You want it somewhere near your seat. If it's there, and the weight is not enough to sink your craft outright, it will behave well in the water.

What is GasGuzzler to do with the bacon? I'm guessing that he'll just have to lose a little weight, or spread himself around a bit better.



I have some name recommendations:
Bacon Baiter
Pork Punt
Trichinosis Trawler
Cured Cruiser
Cutter Coronary


.


I never gave it a thought, but as always, you're right. This ship needs a name!

Trichinosis Trawler is really good. Also like the Coronary Cutter. I thought about maybe calling it the Defib Dinghy...fully equipped with a solar powered defibrillator. However, with all the insight I'm getting for this site, I felt it should be named something climate related...

Climate Goddess
Climate Reuse
Climate Relief

or maybe just plain
Climate

Then I imagined myself unfortunately seeing another person on the river. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. My little speed demon kayak will surely draw attention. As curiosity draws an unwanted crowd, I am also drawn into an unwanted conversation. They ask me why I named her
"Climate Sins Forgiven"

As I am granted one wish in this imaginary situation, I think of the perfect name for my ship. I will name her,

ESCAPE VELOCITY

PS. Don't you EVER AGAIN suggest I might need to lose a little weight. Unoriginal and just plain baloney.


Radiation will not penetrate a perfect insulator, thus as I said space is not a perfect insulator.- Swan
Edited on 17-02-2024 07:26
18-02-2024 23:24
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(14718)
GasGuzzler wrote: As I am granted one wish in this imaginary situation, I think of the perfect name for my ship. I will name her,

ESCAPE VELOCITY

Perfect. You can name the next one Climate Justice!

GasGuzzler wrote: PS. Don't you EVER AGAIN suggest I might need to lose a little weight. Unoriginal and just plain baloney.

I just thought that if you had less baloney, you could allow for the Van Allen belt.




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