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The Earth is already heated by the atmosphere


The Earth is already heated by the atmosphere14-09-2016 07:57
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
The Earth would be 255 K without the atmosphere's greenhouse effect, but it is on average somewhere near 288 K (and rising
). That's a difference of over 50 degrees Fahrenheit, so there's no way our measurements are that off. Explain how the cold air heats the warm Earth. Without greenhouse theory, it can't. But yet it does.
14-09-2016 11:41
Tim the plumber
★★★★☆
(1295)
The alternative hypothesis is that if you start the temperature model from the top of the atmosphere with the temperature of that at what would be expected for a pebble in space and work down you get to the temperatures we have.

That the pressure of the air results in increased temperatures much as the pressure of the rock under the surface results in increased temperatures.

I don't know which is correct.

Edited on 14-09-2016 11:42
14-09-2016 21:40
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9581)
There is an answer, and it's a simple one.

We have volcanoes, the Moon doesn't.
14-09-2016 23:28
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
Do you mean "a warm core," "active tectonics," or "active volcanoes"? The first and second make sense, the latter would only really affect temperature by releasing CO2 and dust. (And the latter tends to cool things down.)
15-09-2016 01:04
Tai Hai Chen
★★★★☆
(1069)
jwoodward48 wrote:
The Earth would be 255 K without the atmosphere's greenhouse effect, but it is on average somewhere near 288 K (and rising
). That's a difference of over 50 degrees Fahrenheit, so there's no way our measurements are that off. Explain how the cold air heats the warm Earth. Without greenhouse theory, it can't. But yet it does.


The air is most oxygen and nitrogen. These gases trap heat. Compare Earth to the moon, where the ground is blazing hot in the day and freezing cold at night, Earth is much more moderate, with the ground being much cooler in the day and much warmer at night.
15-09-2016 14:45
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4920)
Tai Hai Chen wrote: These gases trap heat.

I'm curious about your definition of "trap." I think it differs from mine.

If you were to "trap" several animals, would they be free to leave at their convenience?


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
15-09-2016 15:21
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
Energy escapes at a finite rate. Greenhouse gases reduce that rate.
15-09-2016 15:59
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4920)
jwoodward48 wrote: Energy escapes at a finite rate. Greenhouse gases reduce that rate.

Stefan-Boltzmann says it does not.

I have spelled it out for you.

You apply heavy, religious cognitive dissonance.

Your pretense to be "debating" your religion is absurd. You are preaching.

Too funny.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
15-09-2016 16:59
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
If I stick a metal plate in the atmosphere, your interpretation of SB would imply that it doesn't block any light.

Also, I see you in exactly the same way. But of course you must be right, for you are the nastier of us two.
15-09-2016 17:09
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4920)
jwoodward48 wrote:Also, I see you in exactly the same way. But of course you must be right, for you are the nastier of us two.

Please keep in mind that every one of your posts contains an insult.

Just keep it in mind.

jwoodward48 wrote: If I stick a metal plate in the atmosphere, your interpretation of SB would imply that it doesn't block any light.

If you stick a metal plate in the atmosphere it becomes part of the body.

What do you think you mean by "block"? Are you doing the standard warmizombie "semantics shuffle"? Are you trying to cloak a violation of physics in "layman's terminology" so you can wiggle between the correct meaning and your meaning as necessary?

Really, what do you mean by "block" in this case? Does it mean the same thing as in "the door blocked his exit"?


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
15-09-2016 19:14
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
Block, as in "prevent from continuing." Absorb or reflect.
15-09-2016 19:23
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4920)
jwoodward48 wrote: Block, as in "prevent from continuing." Absorb or reflect.

Does "block" involve "destroy"? ...as in when you destroy something do you refer to having "blocked" it? Was the house "blocked" in the terrible fire?

Do you refer to how mirrors work as "by blocking the image"?

I'm just asking.



.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
15-09-2016 20:42
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
When I put a mirror in front of my face, it blocks light from reaching my eyes. The energy is reflected away. When I put a lead sheet in front of my face, it blocks light from reaching my eyes. The energy is converted to heat, and dissipates via conduction or radiation.

No energy is ever destroyed, just redirected from its original destination.
15-09-2016 21:02
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9581)
jwoodward48 wrote:
Do you mean "a warm core," "active tectonics," or "active volcanoes"? The first and second make sense, the latter would only really affect temperature by releasing CO2 and dust. (And the latter tends to cool things down.)


All three.

Volcanoes themselves release all kinds of stuff. Dust being a big one.

Dust does not actually cool things down. It only cools the surface under it down. It's like any cloud of stuff in the air (even clouds of water).

The dust is warmed instead of the surface. That's all.

Molten lava and hot gases do heat the area around it, and do contribute to the overall temperature of the Earth.

But you don't need the volcano. It is mostly a symptom of the real power underneath us. That power cannot be ignored.

Another source of the problem with S-B is that you cannot apply it uniformly across all bands and get some idea of a real temperature. Using S-B in this way is using the equation backwards and ignoring out of band energy.

One such case is the effect of UV on oxygen, not taken into account by using S-B this way.
S-B produces an infrared temperature of the Earth (close to the ball park). UV is ignored. It is not infrared. It is not anywhere close to infrared.

This radiation causes ionization and chemical reactions. It does not cause heating directly. It does store energy in the chemical reaction, and that energy can be released as heat. This is what the ozone layer does. It is why temperatures increase as you rise through the stratosphere.

Like I said, using S-B this way doesn't work. It can tell you what color light is predominant at a particular temperature of a substance, but it really doesn't go the other way so well.

Using albedo as a fudge factor for the calculation is the biggest problem with using it this way.


The Parrot Killer
15-09-2016 23:48
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
But that's the point. Substances of a particular temperature produce a colour of light predominantly, but observing the light does not imply that the body has to be that temperature. Things can interfere with the radiation.
16-09-2016 00:09
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4920)
jwoodward48 wrote:When I put a mirror in front of my face, it blocks light from reaching my eyes.

That's not what I asked.

When you look in the mirror, do you refer to the light of your image as being "blocked"? It's certainly reflected.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
16-09-2016 00:11
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
Radiation is blocked from going to space. If it is not in space, it must be on Earth. It doesn't matter whether it is reflected, absorbed, refracted.
16-09-2016 00:22
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4920)
jwoodward48 wrote:
Radiation is blocked from going to space. If it is not in space, it must be on Earth. It doesn't matter whether it is reflected, absorbed, refracted.

You again weaseled out of my question. I'll drop it.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
16-09-2016 00:40
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
Fine. Here's the answer.

I refer to light as being reflected from a mirror. This because I am concerned with the path of the light.

But if I am only concerned with the eventual location of the light, the mirror does indeed block light. It depends on context. Would you say that a mirror could block a laser-path?
16-09-2016 06:20
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
It's not weaseling, it's that you're asking me a question, and you know what my answer will be, and you're going to somehow misconstrue me. And I don't like when I play into the hands of people who think that clever wordplay is a good substitute for science. I said block. You asked me if I meant destroy. I said "block," and defined it further. You said that I was not using proper terms. Not in the sense of "no layman's terms in my science," in the sense of "your scientific use of a layman's term does not fit the layman's rules of use of layman's terms." No, I don't say that mirrors block the image. Why the hell does that matter? "A magick mirror would block radiation from escaping to space." That layman's term is as good as any layman's term can be in science. Petty semantics don't matter. This is SCIENCE.




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