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11-05-2020 21:52
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2550)
IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote: Stupid fools run out to confront someone breaking into their shed, gun in hand. Leave it for the police.

You are a gun-craven moron who hates humanity. You pretend to dictate how others must live ... and that includes just how defenseless they must remain before violent crime just to ensure the convenience of the government to be able to arrest and/or murder political prisoners and to reign in tyranny.

tmiddles wrote:But again, pay attention GG, I've never said that guns should be illegal. Short range, single shot small arms, confined to the home are sensible.

All firearms are sensible, regardless of where they are, your gun craven panic notwithstanding.

tmiddles wrote: No one should be out there acting like George Zimmerman. We have real police for that.

Everyone should be able to defend himself like George Zimmerman. The one thing we do not want is a world in which violent criminals like Treyvon Martin reign with impunity. George Zimmerman, in defending himself from the brutal attempt on his life, took one for the team and rid the world of a violent piece of shit. The police obviously were irrelevant and unhelpful ... except as I have indicated, to come in well after everything has already transpired to fill out the paperwork.

tmiddles wrote: Meanwhile you dodge the debate as usual IBD.

This is all you've got: 1) render We the People defenseless and 2) classify dissent as a "dodge." If only dishonesty were an olympic event then you would be a gold medal champ.

tmiddles wrote: The natural question for me then being do you think shotguns and Glocks would matter against an Abrams tank.

That's not really a natural question so much as it is a stupid question. Go ahead and start explaining the relevance.

tmiddles wrote: Yes and when an eye witness says you've been banging 12 year olds and making illegal weapons the cops can go to a judge, get a search warrant and execute it prepared to find contraband that would be hidden if time allowed, and armed to protect themselves.

Incorrect.

1) She claimed to be an eye witness. She likely was a disgruntled reject from the church who was paid by the FBI to help secure an unjust warrant. The FBI operates that way when convenient. The FBI lies when convenient. The FBI uses our taxpayer dollars to help pursue their corner-cutting convenience. The FBI does not exist to serve We the People; they exist to build cases against We the People at the pleasure of the DoJ.

2) She was the FBI's "witness." It was the ATF that sparked the shootout.

--------

The reason you are completely EVADING every substantive point of the debate is because you have no intention of ever debating any of these points. Your problem with firearms is their mere existence. You are a hoplophobe. You actively want an iron-fisted authoritarian government lording over We the People and you want We the People to be helpless to resist, even if (or especially if) that means rendering all law-abiding citizens totally defenseless before violent crime.

Until you stop EVADING these points, there really is nothing more to discuss.


.


George Zimmerman is a 'James'... He got his ass beat for being creepy, following teenage boys around in the dark. Even after being acquitted, he still was out, begging for beating, got few too... You have to remember, that Zimmerman was the only living witness, so his version of reality, was the only one, until proven otherwise. George is, Florida Man. A local loser. And 8 years later, he's still a loser.
11-05-2020 22:37
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13500)
tmiddles wrote:
James___ wrote:... their leader always appeared in court. Any time he was served with a summons to appear, he showed up in court. The FBI did things differently to give them a reason to engage that cult.
You think if they served him with a summons to bring a knocked up 12 year old and an illegal machine gun he would have cooperated? Police need warrants to search a property sometimes. It's part of our legal system. With eye witness testimony of the crimes being committed a judged granted a warrant.

Killing people is not serving a search warrant. All guns are legal.
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Shooting at people on the property is not a search. No court ordered the execution of those people by firing squad.
The only reason anyone got shot was because they were armed. Ironic? Maybe. But also totally predictable.

No, because federal agents shot them and firebombed them.
tmiddles wrote:
How do you commit suicide by cop? Roll up on one with a gun in your hand.

Irrelevant. Mantra 15.
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:I myself am an expert with staffs, swords, knives, guns, explosives, and quite a few other weapons you wouldn't even recognize as weapons.
oh dear...

You're exactly who I worry about waving a gun around ITN.

Too bad. I don't wave my gun around. If I draw my gun, it's to shoot something.
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:...if that other citizen is threatening me or my family with bodily harm..
and WHY would that happen? Serial killer? The chances are beyond remote that this would be an issue.

Trespassing is a real problem on many farms and ranches. So are pests. So are people that want to take your stuff. So are people that want to harm you. Crime is real. I suggest you see your local police and sherriff's records.
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:The United States enjoys a low murder rate (5.3). Not as good as Australia (0.8), but far better than El Salvador (61.8),
Ah hah!!! We finally have your logic on t his one ITN. You are comparing us to El Salvador.

A valid comparison. I also compared the United States to Australia, which has an even lower murder rate than ours. The murder rate in the United States is low, and getting lower.
tmiddles wrote:
Hey why restrict your self to geographically absurd comparisons.

I assume you mean 'cherry picked' comparisons. I didn't. Mantra 29. You did. Mantra 17.
tmiddles wrote:
Open up human history, see what Genghis Khan had going on and maybe you can claim we have a fantastically low murder rate.

Irrelevant. Mantra 15.
tmiddles wrote:
So is this your reason too GFM? You also comparing us to El Salvador when you say our murder rate is low?

It is low...and getting lower.
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:Turns out that gun laws do not reduce murder rate.
cherry picking anyone? I do like a good cherry.
By that logic speaking Spanish gets you murdered.

No, it means that gun laws do not reduce murder rate. Mantra 15.

tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote:..population ... disarmed...to fight against the government...
...parsing your question.?
I took it that you were saying that the process of an authoritarian state dominating it's population began with taking away their guns. I get that wrong?

RQAA. Mantra 29.
tmiddles wrote:
The natural question for me then being do you think shotguns and Glocks would matter against an Abrams tank.

Irrelevant. Mantra 15.
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:...The answer is that the Constitution clearly specifies what powers the government has ...
Yes and when an eye witness says you've been banging 12 year olds and making illegal weapons the cops can go to a judge, get a search warrant and execute it prepared to find contraband that would be hidden if time allowed, and armed to protect themselves.

All weapons are legal. Killing people is not delivering a search warrant. Mantras 15...10...30...29...
tmiddles wrote:
Why don't you actually specify what they did wrong?

Loaded question. Mantras 38b...29.
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:...while ignoring the entirety of the event that followed...
I am not.

Lie. You are doing exactly that.
tmiddles wrote:
What followed was absolutely criminal on the part of the FBI. I just watched the miniseries and could not believe it was the same HRT commander that was at Ruby Ridge. I had to look it up as I was sure they'd made that up for dramatic effect.

Murder is a crime.
tmiddles wrote:
You know what else? No one would have died if they had not brandished guns.

The children that died at Waco were not brandishing guns and were not even armed. The wife of Randy Weaver was not even armed. The dog that was shot by federal agents at Ruby Ridge did not brandish any gun. No one brandished any gun except by federal agents at both Waco and Ruby Ridge. Federal agents brandished first and shot first. Mantras 9b...17...21...38b...
tmiddles wrote:
Just the reality, right or wrong.

Mantra 10d...

No argument presented. RQAA. Justification of tyranny.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
11-05-2020 22:49
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13500)
James___ wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles is a gun craven who can't sleep at night because his hoplophobia consumes him. Every minute of every day he flies into a debilitating panic because someone, somewhere ... has a firearm.

Worse yet, that someone, somewhere.....could be an armed conservative infected with CORONA!!!!!

Sweet dreams, tmiddles.



Your irrationality and the need to strike out at others is a concern. 25% of homicides in the US in 2011 were by family members and involved a firearm. I see how you lash out in this forum. Do you hit your wife or kids if they disagree with you?

Are you suggesting that GasGuzzler and tmiddles are related???


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
11-05-2020 23:12
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13500)
GasGuzzler wrote:
You know, last time I "simply called the police" for a potentially deadly issue in my area, I was asked by the dispatch if I could "please continue to follow the vehicle in question. I just don't have a deputy anywhere near that location." I tailed the vehicle for 17 minutes before a deputy intercepted and made an arrest.


Rather a common occurrence. The last time I tailed a vehicle that long (the driver was drunk), he wrecked before any deputy or police were able to stop him. Fortunately, he didn't take anybody with him. He simply missed the road and hit a telephone poll, knocking himself out and knocking out power and communications service to a community of about 150 houses around him.

There are no police at the airport I am based at. The mechanics have formed a voluntary security, and they all carry guns. The police that serve that area are glad we're there. They can allocate their limited resources elsewhere in town. We have to stop people from killing others by stealing or damaging aircraft, you see. The local heroin treatment clinic and homeless population is not helping matters.

We've even had to stop Pokemon Go players from wandering around on the tarmac. They are unaware of the lethal dangers of aircraft moving around them.

Many truckers are armed to protect themselves and their trucks from riffraff they find on the road. Some of those trucks carry explosives, flammable material, oxidizers, and dangerous chemicals. They all carry licenses with endorsements to handle these materials safely. Police do not know the dangers of these cargo. The trucker does.

I am armed when protecting an explosives magazine, which I do from time to time. I have had to stop police from accessing it, since they did not realize the danger to themselves. I am also armed to keep people from stealing or damaging aircraft, which would possibly kill or injure someone innocent. No police can show up rapidly enough to stop this, and wouldn't know the dangers they face if they attempted to do so. We are there at the airport already on site, and we know the dangers of aircraft.

There are some places where police are not even allowed to go without special authorizations from some other on site authority (such as the trucker or the munitions officer in charge).


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
11-05-2020 23:14
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13500)
James___ wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
tmiddles wrote: I would argue you're more likely to get hurt confronting someone trying to take your property with a gun in your hand than if you simply called the police.


....and I would argue that you need to take a drive outside your city limits once in a while. There is this thing out there called America. It's a beautiful place.

You know, last time I "simply called the police" for a potentially deadly issue in my area, I was asked by the dispatch if I could "please continue to follow the vehicle in question. I just don't have a deputy anywhere near that location." I tailed the vehicle for 17 minutes before a deputy intercepted and made an arrest.

So tmiddles, I'm thinking if we were defenseless, someone could easily kill me and my entire family AND clean up the crime scene, AND be a good distance down the road in 17 minutes.

Your thoughts?



The police wouldn't ask you to follow someone.

They do and have asked exactly that of me.
James___ wrote:
If you could do that, you could give them the license plate number. Then they'd know where to find them.

No, they don't. Surveillance from behind the car is the best way.
James___ wrote:
Much simpler. Yet you couldn't get that information for them or a description of the car?

The license plate is a definitive description of the car.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
11-05-2020 23:42
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13500)
tmiddles wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
Haven't been really following the thread I see GG
:
I just want to know why you figure me and my family are safer without guns, but the police and military are safer with guns. That's all. Seems pretty heartless.
I don't consider the job of the police and military to be "safe" at all.

Nobody said it was. They generally do, however, try to be as safe as possible, even in chaotic situations.
tmiddles wrote:
Fortunately people like IBD cannot pass the psych test for these important jobs

I am licensed in the manufacture and transportation, and use of explosives by the BATF, dumbass. I am a licensed pilot, dumbass. I carry a concealed weapons permit good in 27 States, dumbass. Mantra 13...psychoquackery...
tmiddles wrote:
and these outstanding professionals have both the necessary respect for weaponry and the appropriate fear of it.

Police do not have any clue of the dangers of explosives or how they are handled. They do not know how to fly or maintain an aircraft. They require the expertise of pilots and mechanics and munitions officers to negotiate those dangers safely.

In the town where my airport is has a population of some 20,000; and some 5000 outlying ranches and farms, there are 12 police officers. They can't be everywhere at once, and they are not allowed on the airport operating area without airport security authority (someone like me), and they are not allowed in the magazine or in the use area of explosives without the munitions officer (someone like me). Someone like me is armed and performs that specialized security for them (and for the public at large).

tmiddles wrote:
Any one in our civilization who is deciding if they are going to take the life of another person should be a highly trained professional.

I am a highly trained professional. Taking the life of a trespasser or criminal with intent to harm life or property is legal. See your own laws about this.
tmiddles wrote:
Stupid fools run out to confront someone breaking into their shed, gun in hand.

They have the right to do so. You don't get to dictate what they can and cannot protect on their own land. You are not the king.
tmiddles wrote:
Leave it for the police.

The police are too far away.
tmiddles wrote:
But again, pay attention GG, I've never said that guns should be illegal.

Lie.
tmiddles wrote:
Short range, single shot small arms, confined to the home are sensible.

You don't get to dictate to others what weapons they can and cannot use. You are not the king.
tmiddles wrote:
No one should be out there acting like George Zimmerman. We have real police for that.

Irrelevant. Bigotry. Mantra 15...9b...
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
Oh, pick me! ...tmiddles is a gun craven ...
Meanwhile you dodge the debate as usual IBD.
...deleted Mantras 29...38b...justification for tyranny...4f...9b...29...

No, he correctly pointed out that your hoplophobia is your own problem. That is not dodging anything. It is YOU that does not debate. You only dictate. That is not debate. Mantra 17.


No argument presented. RQAA. Justification of tyranny.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
12-05-2020 23:29
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3377)
IBdaMann wrote:
Everyone should be able to defend himself like George Zimmerman. The one thing we do not want is a world in which violent criminals like Treyvon Martin reign with impunity. George Zimmerman, in defending himself from the brutal attempt on his life, took one for the team and rid the world of a violent piece of shit.
What was Mr. Martin's crime for which he deserved to be shot?
Treyvon Martin was 17 years old when 28 yo Zimmerman fatally shot him. Zimmerman was pursuing Martin down the street against the instructions of a 911 operator. Martin was unarmed.



Think Zimmerman should still get to have a gun? The very next year:
In 2013, Zimmerman's estranged wife called 911 to report that Zimmerman had assaulted her father and was threatening her with a gun.
Or maybe that's "fake news".
In November of that same year, Zimmerman was charged with felony aggravated assault after he allegedly pointed a shotgun at his girlfriend during a domestic violence incident.
In January 2015, Zimmerman was again charged with domestic assault after allegedly throwing a wine bottle at a different girlfriend.
On September 9, 2014, Zimmerman was named by police in a road rage incident in which another driver, later named by police as Matthew Apperson, claimed that Zimmerman followed and threatened him
and on and on.
I think Zimmerman is a piece of shit. It is disturbing you see things as you do IBD.

IBdaMann wrote:The police obviously were irrelevant and unhelpful ...
Zimmerman got them on the phone without delay and they told him to back off.

Interesting how the FBI were in a hurry in Waco but Zimmerman shouldn't have backed off in your view.

Your habit of denigrating the police is shameful. They do great work and deserve our respect.

IBdaMann wrote: classify dissent as a "dodge." If only dishonesty were an olympic event then you would be a gold medal champ.


Uh you ARE dodging. You still haven't answer:
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote:..population ... disarmed...to fight against the government...
...parsing your question.?
I took it that you were saying that the process of an authoritarian state dominating it's population began with taking away their guns. I get that wrong? The natural question for me then being do you think shotguns and Glocks would matter against an Abrams tank.
No answer.

tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:...The answer is that the Constitution clearly specifies what powers the government has ...
Yes and when an eye witness says you've been banging 12 year olds and making illegal weapons the cops can go to a judge, get a search warrant and execute it prepared to find contraband that would be hidden if time allowed, and armed to protect themselves.

Why don't you actually specify what they did wrong?
No answer

The constant ad hominem attacks are fine (boring but whatever) but you use them to skip out on actually responding. No argument and no rebuttal. You dodge the debate when you are losing.

IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote: The natural question for me then being do you think shotguns and Glocks would matter against an Abrams tank.

That's not really a natural question so much as it is a stupid question. Go ahead and start explaining the relevance.
The issue of the people being able to defeat their own government in combat. Isn't that something you keep dancing around? You haven't answered it above and I suspect you won't answer it now. IS AN IMPORTANT ASPECT OF THE 2ND AMENDMENT, IN YOUR VIEW, THE ABILITY OF THE PEOPLE TO DEFEAT THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT IN COMBAT?

IBdaMann wrote:1) She claimed to be an eye witness.
Um..... yeah that's how it works IBD. Like, every time.

IBdaMann wrote:She likely was a disgruntled reject from the church
I would hope any decent person would be disgruntled when their boss knocks up a 12yo girl.

IBdaMann wrote:...The FBI operates that way when convenient.
So do you think our legal system of warrants approved by a Judge should just be set aside? What are you advocating?

IBdaMann wrote:The reason you are completely EVADING every substantive point of the debate ...
Excuse me? I don't play RQAA. Name one, actually name them all and I'll be sure to respond. I have responded to every point to my knowledge.

IBdaMann wrote:Your problem with firearms is their mere existence.
You and GG keep pretending I want all guns to be illegal. I don't. I think a house having a shotgun on hand isn't ridiculous at all.

IBdaMann wrote: You actively want an iron-fisted authoritarian government ...
Try quoting me and making a real argument.

GasGuzzler wrote:
I'm taking fire from an intruder.
Take a wild guess why they are shooting at you? (hint: it's because you have a gun)

Ironic I know!
Edited on 12-05-2020 23:31
13-05-2020 02:00
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13500)
tmiddles wrote:
What was Mr. Martin's crime for which he deserved to be shot?


Assault. This was also the determination by the jury in Zimmerman's court case.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
13-05-2020 02:44
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2550)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
Everyone should be able to defend himself like George Zimmerman. The one thing we do not want is a world in which violent criminals like Treyvon Martin reign with impunity. George Zimmerman, in defending himself from the brutal attempt on his life, took one for the team and rid the world of a violent piece of shit.
What was Mr. Martin's crime for which he deserved to be shot?
Treyvon Martin was 17 years old when 28 yo Zimmerman fatally shot him. Zimmerman was pursuing Martin down the street against the instructions of a 911 operator. Martin was unarmed.



Think Zimmerman should still get to have a gun? The very next year:
In 2013, Zimmerman's estranged wife called 911 to report that Zimmerman had assaulted her father and was threatening her with a gun.
Or maybe that's "fake news".
In November of that same year, Zimmerman was charged with felony aggravated assault after he allegedly pointed a shotgun at his girlfriend during a domestic violence incident.
In January 2015, Zimmerman was again charged with domestic assault after allegedly throwing a wine bottle at a different girlfriend.
On September 9, 2014, Zimmerman was named by police in a road rage incident in which another driver, later named by police as Matthew Apperson, claimed that Zimmerman followed and threatened him
and on and on.
I think Zimmerman is a piece of shit. It is disturbing you see things as you do IBD.

IBdaMann wrote:The police obviously were irrelevant and unhelpful ...
Zimmerman got them on the phone without delay and they told him to back off.

Interesting how the FBI were in a hurry in Waco but Zimmerman shouldn't have backed off in your view.

Your habit of denigrating the police is shameful. They do great work and deserve our respect.

IBdaMann wrote: classify dissent as a "dodge." If only dishonesty were an olympic event then you would be a gold medal champ.


Uh you ARE dodging. You still haven't answer:
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote:..population ... disarmed...to fight against the government...
...parsing your question.?
I took it that you were saying that the process of an authoritarian state dominating it's population began with taking away their guns. I get that wrong? The natural question for me then being do you think shotguns and Glocks would matter against an Abrams tank.
No answer.

tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:...The answer is that the Constitution clearly specifies what powers the government has ...
Yes and when an eye witness says you've been banging 12 year olds and making illegal weapons the cops can go to a judge, get a search warrant and execute it prepared to find contraband that would be hidden if time allowed, and armed to protect themselves.

Why don't you actually specify what they did wrong?
No answer

The constant ad hominem attacks are fine (boring but whatever) but you use them to skip out on actually responding. No argument and no rebuttal. You dodge the debate when you are losing.

IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote: The natural question for me then being do you think shotguns and Glocks would matter against an Abrams tank.

That's not really a natural question so much as it is a stupid question. Go ahead and start explaining the relevance.
The issue of the people being able to defeat their own government in combat. Isn't that something you keep dancing around? You haven't answered it above and I suspect you won't answer it now. IS AN IMPORTANT ASPECT OF THE 2ND AMENDMENT, IN YOUR VIEW, THE ABILITY OF THE PEOPLE TO DEFEAT THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT IN COMBAT?

IBdaMann wrote:1) She claimed to be an eye witness.
Um..... yeah that's how it works IBD. Like, every time.

IBdaMann wrote:She likely was a disgruntled reject from the church
I would hope any decent person would be disgruntled when their boss knocks up a 12yo girl.

IBdaMann wrote:...The FBI operates that way when convenient.
So do you think our legal system of warrants approved by a Judge should just be set aside? What are you advocating?

IBdaMann wrote:The reason you are completely EVADING every substantive point of the debate ...
Excuse me? I don't play RQAA. Name one, actually name them all and I'll be sure to respond. I have responded to every point to my knowledge.

IBdaMann wrote:Your problem with firearms is their mere existence.
You and GG keep pretending I want all guns to be illegal. I don't. I think a house having a shotgun on hand isn't ridiculous at all.

IBdaMann wrote: You actively want an iron-fisted authoritarian government ...
Try quoting me and making a real argument.

GasGuzzler wrote:
I'm taking fire from an intruder.
Take a wild guess why they are shooting at you? (hint: it's because you have a gun)

Ironic I know!


Been a few years, but I'm pretty sure that isn't Trayvon laying on the ground, in your dead body, crime scene photo... Hy was wearing those baggy shorts, and a hoodie.
13-05-2020 03:13
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2550)
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
What was Mr. Martin's crime for which he deserved to be shot?


Assault. This was also the determination by the jury in Zimmerman's court case.


There were no witness, or evidence to dispute Zimmerman's account of what happened. It was pretty clear from Zimmerman's past, and his testimony, that he never does anything wrong, it's everybody else. He called the police constantly, about everything he perceived as wrong. Over 100 calls, in under 2 years.

Zimmerman was following Travon for a while, slowly, in his truck (not very discreetly), and later on foot. It was creepy, like a predator stalking prey. Someone one my property, I usually walk up and ask them if I can help them with anything. My tone, is usually less than friendly. It was a gated community, feeling a need to arm himself, before leaving hi truck, means he knew there was a potential for violence. Until the butt-kicking confrontation, there was no evidence of any crime being committed. Even Zimmerman, didn't witness any crime, until the altercation. No one can know, who started the confrontation, how it got start, only how it turned out, and Zimmerman's version, that didn't really make sense. No evidence to prove otherwise. He still considers what he did was a community-service, and doesn't understand why people think he did something wrong, needlessly killing an unarmed teen.
13-05-2020 05:35
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3377)
HarveyH55 wrote:...I'm pretty sure that isn't Trayvon laying on the ground, ...
It's identified that way on dozens of sites:
https://newsball.com/trayvondeadbody/

Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
What was Mr. Martin's crime for which he deserved to be shot?
Assault. This was also the determination by the jury in Zimmerman's court case.
Now I know you and IBD believe the Mr. Martin deserved to die as we discussed this long ago.

The context I'm trying to bring here is with Waco:
In Waco you had real cops with a search warrant get fired on and killed. The travesty which ensued was because they were too impatient to wait out the Davidians and stormed the compound, after 51 days.

I agree they should have waited as long as it took. Well worth it.

Zimmerman was told by the 911 operator that he did not need to be following Martin at all.

So why is it OK that Zimmerman killed someone who was unarmed in a public street but you find some issue with the initial stage of the Waco massacre?

Follow up question within the context of this thread: Should Martin have been armed. Had Martin been armed and shot Zimmerman dead, being the only eye witness to claiming Zimmerman pulled a gun on him, would Martin be in the right?

HarveyH55 wrote:...He still considers what he did was a community-service, and doesn't understand why people think he did something wrong, needlessly killing an unarmed teen.
I didn't know that there was such a long lead up.

It's just incredible that he still owns guns today. My money is on him killing again.

He tried to auction off the gun he used to kill Mr. Martin.

Also worth pointing out that Mr. Martin was there with his father who was visiting his fiancee who was a resident of the community. I guess if you're visiting your parents you shouldn't go outside in the gated community they live in?

I guess some guys think it's manly to shoot someone instead of fighting fair. Maybe George should have taken some boxing lessons.
13-05-2020 06:06
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13500)
tmiddles wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:...I'm pretty sure that isn't Trayvon laying on the ground, ...
It's identified that way on dozens of sites:
https://newsball.com/trayvondeadbody/

So you believe the fake news. No surprise there. That is not Trayvon. It's a file photo from somewhere.
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
What was Mr. Martin's crime for which he deserved to be shot?
Assault. This was also the determination by the jury in Zimmerman's court case.
Now I know you and IBD believe the Mr. Martin deserved to die as we discussed this long ago.

Yes he did.
tmiddles wrote:
The context I'm trying to bring here is with Waco:
In Waco you had real cops with a search warrant get fired on and killed.

Killing people is not serving a search warrant.
tmiddles wrote:
The travesty which ensued was because they were too impatient to wait out the Davidians and stormed the compound, after 51 days.

Irrelevant. Killing people is not serving a search warrant.
tmiddles wrote:
I agree they should have waited as long as it took. Well worth it.

So you the federal agents firing first the way they did is wrong? What paradox are you trying to build now?
tmiddles wrote:
Zimmerman was told by the 911 operator that he did not need to be following Martin at all.

So why is it OK that Zimmerman killed someone who was unarmed in a public street

Unarmed assault is still assault. You can get shot for that. Mantra 29.
tmiddles wrote:
but you find some issue with the initial stage of the Waco massacre?

Uh...the massacre? Mantra 29.
tmiddles wrote:
Follow up question within the context of this thread: Should Martin have been armed. Had Martin been armed and shot Zimmerman dead, being the only eye witness to claiming Zimmerman pulled a gun on him, would Martin be in the right?

Irrelevant.
tmiddles wrote:
[quote]HarveyH55 wrote:...He still considers what he did was a community-service,

It was.
tmiddles wrote:
and doesn't understand why people think he did something wrong,

He was unaware of the hatred that is the news media.
tmiddles wrote:
needlessly killing an unarmed teen.

It wasn't needless. Assault is a crime. You can get shot for that. If someone shoots you because you assaulted him whether you were armed or not, the shooting is justified.
tmiddles wrote:
I didn't know that there was such a long lead up.
It's just incredible that he still owns guns today.

He is a citizen of the United States. It is legal for him to own guns.
tmiddles wrote:
My money is on him killing again.

Too bad Las Vegas is closed. Speculating will just make you lose your money.
tmiddles wrote:
He tried to auction off the gun he used to kill Mr. Martin.

Irrelevant.
tmiddles wrote:
Also worth pointing out that Mr. Martin was there with his father who was visiting his fiancee who was a resident of the community. I guess if you're visiting your parents you shouldn't go outside in the gated community they live in?

No, you shouldn't assault people. They might shoot you.
tmiddles wrote:
I guess some guys think it's manly to shoot someone instead of fighting fair.

There is no 'fair'. Assault is a crime.
tmiddles wrote:
Maybe George should have taken some boxing lessons.

Irrelevant.


No argument presented. Bigotry. Hoplophobia. RQAA.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Edited on 13-05-2020 06:06
13-05-2020 06:36
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3377)
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
So why is it OK that Zimmerman killed someone who was unarmed in a public street
Unarmed assault is still assault.
Why do you believe that Mr. Martin assaulted Mr. Zimmerman?

Why do you believe that the FBI/ATF fired first at the Davidians?

The Davidians even shot at the helicopters.

If you were an officer and someone pointed a gun at you would you wait to find out if they were going to shoot?
13-05-2020 08:57
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7516)
tmiddles wrote:What was Mr. Martin's crime for which he deserved to be shot?

Violent crime, which you believe should be allowed to occur with impunity.

Martin was on top of Zimmerman doing a ground-n-pound without a referee to stop it. Martin was going to kill Zimmerman ... except fortunately Zimmerman was not defenseless as you wish he were. He managed to work his hand to his gun and give a piece of shit the big flush. We all benefit by the removal of another violent thug from the streets.

Of course, you champion all violent criminals who perform their civic duty and prey on law-abiding citizens, who you expect to remain completely defenseless. I disagree with your dark desires for humanity.

To George Zimmerman from We the People: Thank You.

To the Founding Fathers for the 2nd Amendment: Thank You.

tmiddles wrote: Treyvon Martin was 17 years old when 28 yo Zimmerman fatally shot him.

Please notice the complete irrelevance of the information you provide.

6-foot 2-inches Treyvon Martin jumped a 5-foot 7-inch George Zimmerman because Treyvon Martin was a violent racist bully who got his kicks beating up smaller and weaker white people. Treyvon didn't bother to flag down a cop or security anywhere; no, he was just going to beat Zimmerman to death and enjoy some Skittles and Arizona Tea.

You have to be one sick mohter-fukcer to defend such a racist violent bully piece of shiit.

tmiddles wrote: Zimmerman was pursuing Martin down the street

There's no violence in that and it's certainly not illegal.

tmiddles wrote:... against the instructions of a 911 operator.

Keep repeating that until it adds up to a hill of beans.

tmiddles wrote:Think Zimmerman should still get to have a gun?

Absolutely. Next question?

tmiddles wrote: I think Zimmerman is a piece of shit.

Why? Do you know him personally? I bet you don't. But then again, you'll malign anyone for no reason, mischaracterize positions and generally be dishonest 100% of the time. That makes you a piece of shiit, I hate to tell you.

You hold violent racist thugs who prey on smaller, weaker people in high esteem. Well, it's certainly consistent with your desire for law abiding citizens to just fukc off and die while violent crime takes over.

tmiddles wrote: Your habit of denigrating the police is shameful.

This can count as your mischaracterization of my position for today ... but you still need to make up for yesterday.
Attached image:


Edited on 13-05-2020 09:00
13-05-2020 09:10
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7516)
tmiddles wrote: Why do you believe that Mr. Martin assaulted Mr. Zimmerman?

Because that was the eye witness testimony. I take it you didn't follow the trial very closely.

tmiddles wrote: Why do you believe that the FBI/ATF fired first at the Davidians?

The FBI was not involved in the initial shootout. It was the ATF.

Yes, the Branch Davidians were first to fire warning shots, and none of the shootout would have happened if the government hadn't been tyrannical that day. If only the government could have taken that day off from being tyrranical then everybody's life would have gone on.

But the ATF just had to start a shootout that day by threatening to storm in and confiscate legal firearms. Not the FBI ... the ATF. They decided to confiscate some guns ... because they had nothing better to do that day and there's nothing like a good ol' firefight with We the People to give them an adrenaline rush that will last for a week.

tmiddles wrote: The Davidians even shot at the helicopters.

Yep. The government wanted to see just how unfair they could make the situation with We the People over not surrendering their legal firearms.

tmiddles wrote: If you were an officer and someone pointed a gun at you would you wait to find out if they were going to shoot?

If I were an officer being told to violate the Constitution by seizing legal firearms just because somebody in my department wanted to make some arrests, I would report it to Internal Affairs. I would nip the shootout with We the People and the deaths that would ensue ... in the bud.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
13-05-2020 09:15
Ory_Dan
☆☆☆☆☆
(5)
There is no answer to a itchy trigger with this default culture.
13-05-2020 10:06
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7516)
Ory_Dan wrote: There is no answer to a itchy trigger with this default culture.

Once you've abandoned the tyrannical governments of Europe and tasted freedom, there's no way in hell anyone would want to go back.

In fact, I say we let them tax the chit out of themselves while we watch ... and see how that works out for them.
.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
13-05-2020 11:00
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2550)
Sanford, is maybe an hour drive from where I live. Zimmerman was/is local news. We got every detail, daily. Not sure how much, or what went national. I'm sure there was some point into it, where I got bored with the repetition, and didn't pay close attention anymore.

The self-defense laws protect you, whe, you, or someone is at risk. It doesn't allow you to provoke a fight, decide you don't like getting your ass kicked, and shooting someone you provoked into fighting.
13-05-2020 12:41
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13500)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
So why is it OK that Zimmerman killed someone who was unarmed in a public street
Unarmed assault is still assault.
Why do you believe that Mr. Martin assaulted Mr. Zimmerman?
Unknown. Irrelevant.
tmiddles wrote:
Why do you believe that the FBI/ATF fired first at the Davidians?
The ATF did fire first.
tmiddles wrote:
The Davidians even shot at the helicopters.
In self defense. I don't blame them.
tmiddles wrote:
If you were an officer and someone pointed a gun at you would you wait to find out if they were going to shoot?

No one was pointing a gun at any FBI or ATF agent until the ATF agents opened fire.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Edited on 13-05-2020 12:42
14-05-2020 15:02
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3377)
IBdaMann wrote:
Martin was on top of Zimmerman ...was going to kill Zimmerman ...
you are so confident in those "facts"?
What would you say Mr. Martin's motive was for this crime? How do you imagine the two came to be close enough to fight?

IBdaMann wrote:.... We all benefit by the removal of another violent thug from the streets.
You are simply advocating for extrajudicial execution on a public street. Yet? The feds were out of line in Waco? Hmmm
IBdaMann wrote:
They decided to confiscate some guns ... because they had nothing better to do....
you do like pretending child rape wasn't in the warrant. But again you haven't said how our system should be changed. No more courts? Might makes right?

IBdaMann wrote:
[quote]tmiddles wrote: Why do you believe that Mr. Martin assaulted Mr. Zimmerman?

Because that was the eye witness testimony. I take it you didn't follow the trial very closely./quote]

Oh you mean these:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-eyewitnesses-in-the-z/

Again try quoting a source if you have a point to make. There are no eye witness accounts of Mr. Martin being the initiator of the conflict,

IBdaMann wrote:..Of course, you champion all violent criminals ...
buying Skittles is not a violent crime. Shooting someone is.

IBdaMann wrote: Treyvon Martin was a violent racist bully who got his kicks beating up smaller and weaker white people. Treyvon didn't bother to flag down a cop or security anywhere; ..
So it was Mr. Martins responsibility to seek police assistance? Surely you don't mean after he'd been shot.

And why were the Davidians not expected to appeal to the proper authotities.

We do have a professional class of law enforcement and a court system.

I would argue that you version of 2nd amendment rights in which search warrants are optional, shooting cops is legit and extrajudicial vigilante execution is celebrated, is mutually exclusive with our othet rights like due process.

IBdaMann wrote: [Mr. Martin was] a racist violent bully piece of shiit.
but when I impune Mr. Zimmerman you say:
IBdaMann wrote: Why? Do you know him personally? I bet you don't. But then again, you'll malign anyone for no reason, ..


Into the Night wrote:
No one was pointing a gun at any FBI or ATF agent until the ATF agents opened fire.
you are making things up. Prove it.
Edited on 14-05-2020 15:14
14-05-2020 18:53
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13500)
tmiddles wrote:...deleted Mantras 29...16b...29...29...29...29...29...4a...4b...15...15...16b...16c...15...29...29...4f...15...29...lie...30...29...30...31...34...35d...23...lie..30...36e...29...


No argument presented. RQAA. Denial of the Constitution of the United States, the Constitution of the State of Florida and the Constitution of the State of Texas.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
14-05-2020 22:56
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3377)
Into the Night wrote:
...Denial of the Constitution...
Search Warrants are unconstitutional?
15-05-2020 00:11
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13500)
tmiddles wrote:...deleted Mantras 16b...15...


No argument presented. Bogus question.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Edited on 15-05-2020 00:12
15-05-2020 02:50
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7516)
HarveyH55 wrote: We got every detail, daily. Not sure how much, or what went national.

Mixed into the "detail" was blatant misinformation, especially earlier on.

I followed the case from the get-go, but unlike the rest of the country, I paid attention during Zimmerman's trial. You are aware he was acquitted, yes? The reason was that he was defending himself and his life from a viscious bully who jumped him. Any other imagery that you received that you thought was "detail" was unfortunately just intentional misinformation from the media, I'm sorry.

HarveyH55 wrote: The self-defense laws protect you, whe, you, or someone is at risk. It doesn't allow you to provoke a fight, decide you don't like getting your ass kicked, and shooting someone you provoked into fighting.

Zimmerman didn't provoke any fight. I'm sorry that you were led to believe that.

Zimmerman was following Martin. Following him. Tiny little 5-foot-seven-inches-short Zimmerman was following 6-foot-two-inches Trevon Martin so that he could point his whereabouts to the police. That is perfectly legal.

Nonetheless, Treyvon Martin eluded Zimmerman; George had lost sight of him. Now Treyvon Martin could have just run away. In fact, he could have just walked away because Zimmerman no longer knew where he was. But Treyvon had made up his mind to double back around behind a building and jump Zimmerman by surprise because Martin was an violent criminal who liked to just beat the sh't out of people, especially crackers.

So that's what he did, and he jumped Zimmerman, took him to the ground, got in the full mount and started a full-on UFC ground-and-pound on a victim that was about four weight classes below his own. Zimmerman was not a mixed-martial artist (unlike Treyvon who had been training such) and had no idea what to do. Martin was bashing in Zimmerman's head while Zimmerman was completely helpless.

How do we know this level of detail of the ground-n-pound? From the eye witness who at first shouted at them to stop, but who wasn't about to fukc with Trevon so he ran back to his house nearby and dialed 9-1-1. He saw everything and testified in court.

Zimmerman's account, which was given to the police right away, was completely consistent with all the subsequent evidence and testimony collected, despite intentional misinformation from the media. What the eye-witness described in his deposition completely matched Zimmerman's account.

The only possible verdict was to acquit. Martin got what he deserved and we're all better off for it.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
15-05-2020 03:09
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7516)
tmiddles wrote: You are so confident in those "facts"?

Learn what a fact is. I followed the case.

tmiddles wrote: What would you say Mr. Martin's motive was for this crime?

He was a racist thug, an absolutely horrible excuse for a human, who enjoyed dispensing violent crime.

tmiddles wrote: How do you imagine the two came to be close enough to fight?

He doubled back and jumped Zimmerman.

IBdaMann wrote: You are simply advocating for extrajudicial execution on a public street.

Nope. I am advocating for everyone to enjoy the 2nd Amendment right of being able to defend one's life in the face of violent crime. I am merely expressing my appreciation for there being one fewer pieces of shit in this world who wouldn't think twice about attacking either me or my family members just because he was bored and in between burglary attempts.


tmiddles wrote: you do like pretending child rape wasn't in the warrant.

You do enjoy pretending that the government has the authority to justify its own overreach.

tmiddles wrote: But again you haven't said how our system should be changed.

I would make it illegal for any law enforcement agency to use a violation of the Constitution as a basis for a warrant. I would make it illegal for the police to raid someone's house (or compound) without substantial evidence of a crime. As it stands, judges will grant warrants without any evidence whatsoever, but solely on the basis that a law enforcement officer has produced someone who will say whatever the officer wants him to say.

I can just imagine the ATF agent, with a freshly signed warrant in hand, smiling and handing the disgruntled Branch Davidian a $20 for the "sworn statement."

... and off to the shootout they went, which never would have happened if the judge had demanded something a little more substantial. Sure, the ATF wouldn't have gotten their adrenaline rush but on the positive side, the deaths wouldn't have occurred.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
15-05-2020 03:11
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7516)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
...Denial of the Constitution...
Search Warrants are unconstitutional?

No, search warrants are not. Would you care to guess again?

[hint: firearms are still legal]

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
15-05-2020 03:48
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3377)
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:...you do like pretending child rape wasn't in the warrant. But again you haven't said how our system should be changed. No more courts? Might makes right?...I would argue that you version of 2nd amendment rights in which search warrants are optional, shooting cops is legit and extrajudicial vigilante execution is celebrated, is mutually exclusive with our othet rights like due process.
...Denial of the Constitution...
Search Warrants are unconstitutional?
No argument presented. Bogus question.
What were you saying was a "Denial of the Constitution"? The ATF came to the Davidians with a search warrant and it was not accepted. You have, again, intentionally made a statement with no clarity as to what you are directing it to.

What is a "Denial of the Constitution" in my post?

IBdaMann wrote:...Martin was bashing in Zimmerman's head while Zimmerman was completely helpless....
Why don't you link to the video IBD? Or whatever that supremely confident account is based on.

IBdaMann wrote:....[Martin] who enjoyed dispensing violent crime.....he was bored and in between burglary attempts.
Oh now see there you go. Link to his convictions and then we'll really have something. What crimes was Mr. Martin convicted of? Or failing that what was he arrested for at least?

Note you said "Crime" so I'm sure that is based on a conviction or evidence that would allow for one prior to the Zimmerman incident.

I'm curious who would keep attacking someone with a gun? Doesn't it seem crazy, like beyond the scope of how crazy Skittles can make you, that Mr. Martin would continue fighting Zimmerman after he saw that he was going to be shot with a real gun?

Did you know? : Trayvon's body was immediately subjected to a drug and alcohol test, but Zimmerman was not.

Mr. Martin surely tested positive for Skittles. Zimmerman? Who knows he wasn't tested.

IBdaMann wrote:You do enjoy pretending that the government has the authority to justify its own overreach..
You keep dodging this, probably because you have nothing:
What mistake/s were made leading up to the Davidians being served with a warrant? Did the Judge screw up in granting it? Should warrants be illegal? What are you saying?

IBdaMann wrote:...a violation of the Constitution as a basis for a warrant. ..
I don't remember ""Life, Liberty, sex with 12 year olds and the pursuit of Happiness". Are you saying that for the government to enforce gun laws of any kind is not constitutional?

IBdaMann wrote:...substantial evidence of a crime...
They had an eye witness and a Judge agreed. So?

You seem to simply wish you'd be the judge.

Your pretense that firearms cannot be regulated is simply false. You need permits and you must follow applicable laws.

If you don't like it you might try to talk to your local politician.

The same goes for underage sex and polygamy. Take it up with your congressman.

This is a democracy you know.

We can even change the constitution is we choose to.
Edited on 15-05-2020 04:36
15-05-2020 04:57
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13500)
tmiddles wrote:
...deleted Mantras 29...4e...29...15...29...16b...29...16b...15...29...15...16c...29...39n...30...
Your pretense that firearms cannot be regulated is simply false. You need permits and you must follow applicable laws.

All guns are legal.
tmiddles wrote:
If you don't like it you might try to talk to your local politician.

He can't change the Constitution.
tmiddles wrote:
The same goes for underage sex and polygamy. Take it up with your congressman.

Irrelevant. The Constitution of the United States does not address this. Strawman fallacy.
tmiddles wrote:
This is a democracy you know.

WRONG. There are no democracies currently in the world today. The United States is organized as a federated republic. It has constitutions.
tmiddles wrote:
We can even change the constitution is we choose to.

You cannot change the Constitution of the United States. Only the States can do that.

No argument presented. Justification of tyranny. RQAA.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
15-05-2020 05:15
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7516)
tmiddles wrote: Why don't you link to the video IBD?

Is it important to you?

tmiddles wrote: Oh now see there you go.

Now here you go.

When you get whatever information is important to you, you'll have all the answers you need.

tmiddles wrote: Note you said "Crime" so I'm sure that is based on a conviction or evidence that would allow for one prior to the Zimmerman incident.

No. It is based on his jumping Zimmerman and bashing his head in when he could have walked away. THAT tells me all I need to know. It takes a special kind of sick and twisted mind to persist in presuming that Martin was somehow the victim because of his leaving Zimmerman with only one way to remain alive.

So the eye witness testified he saw this:



The Washington Post reported this:

Trayvon Martin documents reveal new details in case
By Sari Horwitz and Stephanie McCrummen
May 17, 2012

Neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin from a very close range, according to documents a Florida prosecutor released Thursday that indicate a hand-to-hand struggle occurred before the teenager was killed.

A lab report, based on an examination of the two sweatshirts Martin was wearing, found holes and gunshot residue consistent with a "contact shot," meaning the gun was pressed against Martin's chest. An autopsy report said that the gunshot wound indicated he was shot from an "intermediate range," which experts say is between one and 18 inches away.

The information includes laboratory reports that show Martin's blood had traces of THC, a chemical that is found in marijuana. Toxicology reports also found blood under Martin's fingernails, Zimmerman's blood on Martin's sweatshirt and Martin's blood on Zimmerman's red jacket.

...

A photo of Zimmerman shows he had a bloody nose on the night of the clash; a paramedic reported that he had a one-inch laceration on his head and a forehead abrasion. The injuries, said the paramedic, produced "minor bleeding."


tmiddles wrote: I'm curious who would keep attacking someone with a gun?

You're omniscient, right? Did Martin ever know that Zimmerman had a gun until there was a cap up his chest?

Go play back all of the testimony of the trial and then we can discuss without me having to recount all of the testimony of the trial.

tmiddles wrote: Doesn't it seem crazy, like beyond the scope of how crazy Skittles can make you, that Mr. Martin would continue fighting Zimmerman after he saw that he was going to be shot with a real gun?

Doesn't it seem crazy, like beyond the scope of how crazy Skittles can make you, that Mr. Martin was somehow not omniscient like you? I mean, you'd think he'd flip the omniscience switch and just "know" that Zimmerman was packing concealed heat in the mostly dark. He must have been one truly stupid violent criminal to forget the rule that you ALWAYS clairvoy before you jump someone, without exception. What a moron.

I know that wouldn't happen to you. If you were ever to jump someone because you just felt like you needed to beat the shit out of someone, I know you'd remember to just "know" whether your victim is carrying or not, along with the average temperature of Venus at that moment. So why didn't Treyvon?

Costly mistake, no? ... but we all benefit, so there's that.

tmiddles wrote: You seem to simply wish you'd be the judge.

You seem to have no reading comprehension.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
15-05-2020 10:29
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2550)
With psycho Martin on top, pounding the life out of Zimmerman, how was it possible for the chubby man abled reach around, and pry his little girlie Kel Tec out of hid roll of belly fat? The witness, only saw Martin on top (though didn't know, who was on top, until it was obvious who was receiving the beating). Still no witness of what happened, up to that point, except Zimmerman. Couldn't have Martin just been continuing on his way, and zimmerman was determined to hold him, until the police arrived, which shouldn't be more than a minute or two? Wasn't going to let Nartin out of his sight, wasn't going to just let him walk away. He finally caught one of those evasive buggers. There was no witness to the actual shooting part. Really contortionist weird, how either of them could have reach the weapon, during the head pounding position. George must have been really bendy, to pull off that kill shot too.

Then again, the law, is the law, and anything a witness states, is always accepted as gospel truth, until there is evidence to disprove it.
15-05-2020 18:49
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7516)
HarveyH55 wrote:
With psycho Martin on top, pounding the life out of Zimmerman, how was it possible for the chubby man abled reach around, and pry his little girlie Kel Tec out of hid roll of belly fat?

Well, we presume that it happened; Trevon Martin is now dead ... and your question only exists because we are missing certain details of an event where "you really had to be there" ... and not because any laws of physics were seemingly violated. If you were a juror, would the manner that Zimmerman grabbed hold of his gun be an issue for you, or would it be sufficient to simply acknowledge that he did?

HarveyH55 wrote: The witness, only saw Martin on top (though didn't know, who was on top, until it was obvious who was receiving the beating).

Correct, and he knew there was a one-way beating going on. The noise drew him out of his house to find out what was going on, he saw what he saw, he tried (feebly was my impression, perhaps out of fear of Treyvon Martin) to warn them but gave up and decided to instead call 9-1-1 based on what he witnessed. The witness was clear that Treyvon Martin was the one on top delivering the beating to Zimmerman on the ground (the witness obviously didn't know either of their names at the time of Treyvon's beat-down of Zimmerman; he differentiated by skin color mostly.

HarveyH55 wrote: Still no witness of what happened, up to that point, except Zimmerman.

Correct. What convinced me is that Zimmerman was questioned first and gave his account. Then, everything that was thereafter learned about what had transpired matched what Zimmerman had said, i.e. the 9-1-1 call, the Martin smack-down, etc ... so I was never presented any reason to doubt the remaining parts of Zimmerman's story. Other witnesses corroborated the racist and violent nature of Trevon Martin. No juror had any reason to doubt Zimmerman's story that I could see.

HarveyH55 wrote: Couldn't have Martin just been continuing on his way, and zimmerman was determined to hold him, until the police arrived, which shouldn't be more than a minute or two?

Treyvon Martin could have just left. Zimmerman was merely following Martin, not arresting him, interfering in what he was doing, blocking him, detaining him or hindering him in any way. Martin just suddenly disappeared; Zimmerman had lost him.

It was Martin who confronted Zimmerman, in surprise fashion, by doubling back around rather than simply wandering away once Zimmerman couldn't see him. It was Martin who was determined to unfurl some royal crap-kicking on a tiny, chubby and very bullyable Zimmerman. Martin caused the entire event to happen.

And let's not forget, Zimmerman was maligned as being every negative thing that Treyvon Martin actually was ... and all because Zimmerman merely followed Martin. Of course, tmiddles maligns Zimmerman because Zimmerman dared to not remain totally defenseless in the face of violent crime ... and because Zimmerman now serves as an excellent counterexample to tmiddles' assertion that we would all be so much safer if we were to all remain totally defenseless. tmiddles certainly cannot abide that. tmiddles primary accusation against Zimmerman was that Zimmerman kept and bore arms in accordance with the 2nd Amendment and that he should therefore receive a life sentence on that fact alone. tmiddles' second charge is that Zimmerman FOLLOWED Martin in cold blood, which should earn him a needle.

HarveyH55 wrote: George must have been really bendy, to pull off that kill shot too.

Not at all.

Have you ever seen an MMA fight or a street fight where one guy was on his back on the ground? I think it is a given that Zimmerman, the one on his back, was struggling. If you have ever seen such a fight, the guy on the top has to alternates between maintaining balance (because the guy on the bottom is not passive) and getting in shots from the advantage (top) position. The ballistics don't leave me with any questions; it appears that Zimmerman's opportunity to shoot Martin came when Martin was posting (supporting himself with) his right arm, out and back a little thus leaving his left side a bit forward and open, where he was shot. I was not there, obviously, but there is nothing about the scenario that doesn't seem completely straightforward to me. I'm sure the jurors saw it that way too.

HarveyH55 wrote:Then again, the law, is the law, and anything a witness states, is always accepted as gospel truth, until there is evidence to disprove it.

Incorrect. It's not what the law reads. It's what the jurors believed. The witness' testimony, which came AFTER Martin had already committed to a story, aligned with Zimmerman's story. What the witness described and what Zimmerman claimed fits every street fight I have ever seen. I still cannot see how any jurors could have been expected to have any issues or concerns with what had transpired.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
16-05-2020 11:43
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3377)
IBdaMann wrote:
It was Martin who confronted Zimmerman, in surprise fashion, ...
Would you say you ____ these things IBD? What word would use use?

According to eye witnesses (well they CLAIM to be eye witnesses) it just didn't happen that way, or maybe it did. They do seem a tad unreliable:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-eyewitnesses-in-the-z/

"Another witness, who was initially interviewed March 20, said she saw two people on the ground immediately after the shooting but was not sure which one was on top. In another interview with investigators six days later, she said it had definitely been Zimmerman on top, explaining that she was sure because she had been able to compare Zimmerman's and Martin's sizes after seeing them on TV."

But really the question is should everyone walk around with a hand gun.

Now Martin was not armed. He actually wanted a gun we learned when the private details of his cell were revealed in court. But he was 17 and despite what anyone might say every corner of the country has regulations on gun ownership and you need to be 21 in Florida.

So would the world be a better place if Zimmerman AND Martin had been strapped in public, just one of them (and you'll need to justify that answer) or neither.

I guess a community can decide:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/gun-control-old-west-180968013/

"The laws of Tombstone [in 1881] required visitors, upon entering town to disarm, either at a hotel or a lawman's office. (Residents of many famed cattle towns, such as Dodge City, Abilene, and Deadwood, had similar restrictions.)"

But that was a long time ago. Maybe they were stupid.
Edited on 16-05-2020 11:46
16-05-2020 14:47
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2550)
One thing that influenced my opinion of Zimmerman, was the volume, and content of his 911/311 calls. Over a hundred of them, on under 2 years, about the same length of time, as his neighborhood watch gig. The calls weren't all confined to his gated community either. Zimmerman acted as if he was a police officer, and was suspicious of anything he perceived as out of place.
16-05-2020 22:18
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13500)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
It was Martin who confronted Zimmerman, in surprise fashion, ...
Would you say you ____ these things IBD? What word would use use?

According to eye witnesses (well they CLAIM to be eye witnesses) it just didn't happen that way, or maybe it did. They do seem a tad unreliable:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-eyewitnesses-in-the-z/

"Another witness, who was initially interviewed March 20, said she saw two people on the ground immediately after the shooting but was not sure which one was on top. In another interview with investigators six days later, she said it had definitely been Zimmerman on top, explaining that she was sure because she had been able to compare Zimmerman's and Martin's sizes after seeing them on TV."

Zimmerman has already been tried for this event. You don't get to retry him. The jury has decided. It's done.
tmiddles wrote:
But really the question is should everyone walk around with a hand gun.

You don't get to decide who gets to walk around with a hand gun. You are not the king.
tmiddles wrote:
Now Martin was not armed. He actually wanted a gun we learned when the private details of his cell were revealed in court. But he was 17 and despite what anyone might say every corner of the country has regulations on gun ownership and you need to be 21 in Florida.

So would the world be a better place if Zimmerman AND Martin had been strapped in public, just one of them (and you'll need to justify that answer) or neither.

I guess a community can decide:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/gun-control-old-west-180968013/

"The laws of Tombstone [in 1881] required visitors, upon entering town to disarm, either at a hotel or a lawman's office. (Residents of many famed cattle towns, such as Dodge City, Abilene, and Deadwood, had similar restrictions.)"

But that was a long time ago. Maybe they were stupid.

They were stupid. Some of these town sheriffs and deputies or mayors trying to implement these laws paid for it with their lives. The community didn't ban guns in these towns. A single person like a sheriff or a mayor did, illegally.

You are not forced to wear a gun. If you want to go unarmed, fine. But you can't force anyone else to not carry a gun.

Thousands around carry a gun (usually concealed). You are surrounded by them. You aren't getting shot, are you? Try to take away their guns, though, and you probably will be.

You have a very serious decision to make.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
16-05-2020 22:18
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13500)
HarveyH55 wrote:
One thing that influenced my opinion of Zimmerman, was the volume, and content of his 911/311 calls. Over a hundred of them, on under 2 years, about the same length of time, as his neighborhood watch gig. The calls weren't all confined to his gated community either. Zimmerman acted as if he was a police officer, and was suspicious of anything he perceived as out of place.


Irrelevant. This was considered during his trial, and was also deemed irrelevant.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
16-05-2020 22:40
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7516)
HarveyH55 wrote: One thing that influenced my opinion of Zimmerman, was the volume, and content of his 911/311 calls. Over a hundred of them, on under 2 years, about the same length of time, as his neighborhood watch gig. The calls weren't all confined to his gated community either.

Zimmerman was a community activist who believed in the neighborhood watch program and who tried to teach others that they could be safe as well. Among other things, he tried to teach other communities that they can always call 9-1-1 if they see someone who doesn't live in the neighborhood doing something suspicisious , like prowling around a house when the owners aren't home. Of course this will result in calls to 9-1-1 that don't originate in his neighborhood.

Harvey, you don't think there's anything wrong with calling 9-1-1 do you? That's what it's there for. You or anyone can call a hundred times a day if you need to.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
17-05-2020 17:35
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2550)
IBdaMann wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote: One thing that influenced my opinion of Zimmerman, was the volume, and content of his 911/311 calls. Over a hundred of them, on under 2 years, about the same length of time, as his neighborhood watch gig. The calls weren't all confined to his gated community either.

Zimmerman was a community activist who believed in the neighborhood watch program and who tried to teach others that they could be safe as well. Among other things, he tried to teach other communities that they can always call 9-1-1 if they see someone who doesn't live in the neighborhood doing something suspicisious , like prowling around a house when the owners aren't home. Of course this will result in calls to 9-1-1 that don't originate in his neighborhood.

Harvey, you don't think there's anything wrong with calling 9-1-1 do you? That's what it's there for. You or anyone can call a hundred times a day if you need to.


.


You should read those 911/311 call transcripts. Most aren't people, or where people live. He reported a pothole, a stray dog, sack of trash on the sidewalk... He called in anything, and everything, that he perceived as wrong, an obsession. Anything wrong, must be corrected.

There were over 230 people living his gated community. There is no way, he would know each person there, on sight, know where they live. He had to get out of his truck, to check the cross street for the 911 dispatcher... All those people living there had family and friends, allowed to visit, even stay over for a while. Obviously, he didn't know Trayvon was staying there with his dad.
17-05-2020 21:46
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3377)
IBdaMann wrote:Zimmerman was a community activist who believed in the neighborhood watch program
It's interesting that you say you've followed this story and you've clearly formed a favorable opinion of Mr. Zimmerman.

I assume you've determined his ex-wife, her father and the ex-girlfriends are NOT reliable eyewitnesses for some reason?

In 2013, Zimmerman's estranged wife called 911 to report that Zimmerman had assaulted her father and was threatening her with a gun.

In November of that same year, Zimmerman was charged with felony aggravated assault after he allegedly pointed a shotgun at his girlfriend during a domestic violence incident.

In January 2015, Zimmerman was again charged with domestic assault after allegedly throwing a wine bottle at a different girlfriend.

True there are not convictions, just 4 eye witnesses.

Mr. Martin had no convictions either but that is not an issue for you clearly.
17-05-2020 22:15
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7516)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:Zimmerman was a community activist who believed in the neighborhood watch program
It's interesting that you say you've followed this story and you've clearly formed a favorable opinion of Mr. Zimmerman.

You would be incorrect. I have never met George Zimmerman nor interacted with him in any way but many of those who do/did say he is a jerk often. That is the extent of my very non-expert understanding and almost the entirety of my "impression."

Why is this not a 39p.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
17-05-2020 23:51
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13500)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:Zimmerman was a community activist who believed in the neighborhood watch program
It's interesting that you say you've followed this story and you've clearly formed a favorable opinion of Mr. Zimmerman.

I assume you've determined his ex-wife, her father and the ex-girlfriends are NOT reliable eyewitnesses for some reason?

In 2013, Zimmerman's estranged wife called 911 to report that Zimmerman had assaulted her father and was threatening her with a gun.

In November of that same year, Zimmerman was charged with felony aggravated assault after he allegedly pointed a shotgun at his girlfriend during a domestic violence incident.

In January 2015, Zimmerman was again charged with domestic assault after allegedly throwing a wine bottle at a different girlfriend.

True there are not convictions, just 4 eye witnesses.

Mr. Martin had no convictions either but that is not an issue for you clearly.


Bulverism. You don't get to try Zimmerman again. You are not the jury nor the king. Mantra 39p.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Edited on 17-05-2020 23:51
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