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High temp20-11-2019 05:24
keepit
★★★☆☆
(783)
Bill Gates' sponsored company Heliogen announced a breakthrough in harnessing the sun's energy to produce a much higher temperatures than before. Apparently this will allow the production of cement and steel without using fossil fuels. They're doing it by using special computers to more accurately (and more efficiently) aim solar panels so as to achieve the greater temps.
20-11-2019 05:48
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1529)
keepit wrote:
Bill Gates' sponsored company Heliogen announced a breakthrough in harnessing the sun's energy to produce a much higher temperatures than before. Apparently this will allow the production of cement and steel without using fossil fuels. They're doing it by using special computers to more accurately (and more efficiently) aim solar panels so as to achieve the greater temps.


"These materials are everywhere in our lives but we don't have any proven breakthroughs that will give us affordable, zero-carbon versions of them." said Bill Gates.

Can you find the key word in Bill's quote?


spot-
Into the Night is also has delusions of comptance
20-11-2019 06:27
James___
★★★★☆
(1849)
keepit wrote:
Bill Gates' sponsored company Heliogen announced a breakthrough in harnessing the sun's energy to produce a much higher temperatures than before. Apparently this will allow the production of cement and steel without using fossil fuels. They're doing it by using special computers to more accurately (and more efficiently) aim solar panels so as to achieve the greater temps.



A special computer? Any pc should be able to run tracking software. I've done some cnc programming and an old 486 can do that. All you have is an x and a y axial tilt. The Sun's movement across the sky is well known. A special computer sounds like more money for Microsoft. Heck, NASA on its JPL website gives out that information for free.
20-11-2019 08:49
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1585)
keepit wrote:...Heliogen announced a breakthrough....

Wow!! This is really great:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/19/business/heliogen-solar-energy-bill-gates/index.html

1000C so that the heat can be directly used to make cement, melt steel!

Hooray for science!!! I'm so glad it's not just a bunch of platitudes.

So it sounds like the badass bit is not having the mirror just catch the sun but getting the reflected beams precisely aligned.
20-11-2019 12:54
James___
★★★★☆
(1849)
tmiddles wrote:
keepit wrote:...Heliogen announced a breakthrough....

Wow!! This is really great:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/19/business/heliogen-solar-energy-bill-gates/index.html

1000C so that the heat can be directly used to make cement, melt steel!

Hooray for science!!! I'm so glad it's not just a bunch of platitudes.

So it sounds like the badass bit is not having the mirror just catch the sun but getting the reflected beams precisely aligned.



It's not a new idea.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_plants_in_the_Mojave_Desert
20-11-2019 16:33
montellmartins0007
☆☆☆☆☆
(3)
i think its a great idea from Bill Gates.
20-11-2019 17:18
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5225)
James___ wrote: A special computer? Any pc should be able to run tracking software. I've done some cnc programming and an old 486 can do that. All you have is an x and a y axial tilt. The Sun's movement across the sky is well known. A special computer sounds like more money for Microsoft. Heck, NASA on its JPL website gives out that information for free.

James__, by "special computer" they mean it has lots of cute hexagon stickers.



.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
20-11-2019 17:47
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1529)
IBdaMann wrote:
James___ wrote: A special computer? Any pc should be able to run tracking software. I've done some cnc programming and an old 486 can do that. All you have is an x and a y axial tilt. The Sun's movement across the sky is well known. A special computer sounds like more money for Microsoft. Heck, NASA on its JPL website gives out that information for free.

James__, by "special computer" they mean it has lots of cute hexagon stickers.



.




spot-
Into the Night is also has delusions of comptance
20-11-2019 17:52
James___
★★★★☆
(1849)
IBdaMann wrote:
James___ wrote: A special computer? Any pc should be able to run tracking software. I've done some cnc programming and an old 486 can do that. All you have is an x and a y axial tilt. The Sun's movement across the sky is well known. A special computer sounds like more money for Microsoft. Heck, NASA on its JPL website gives out that information for free.

James__, by "special computer" they mean it has lots of cute hexagon stickers.



.


20-11-2019 22:08
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10253)
keepit wrote:
Bill Gates' sponsored company Heliogen announced a breakthrough in harnessing the sun's energy to produce a much higher temperatures than before. Apparently this will allow the production of cement and steel without using fossil fuels. They're doing it by using special computers to more accurately (and more efficiently) aim solar panels so as to achieve the greater temps.


You cannot make steel by simply melting iron.
Cement is primarily from limestone, or calcium carbonate. Making it vents carbon dioxide.

You are talking about trying to make furnaces hot enough to melt steel safely, by the guy that created Windows.

No thanks.


The Parrot Killer
20-11-2019 22:09
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10253)
tmiddles wrote:
keepit wrote:...Heliogen announced a breakthrough....

Wow!! This is really great:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/19/business/heliogen-solar-energy-bill-gates/index.html

1000C so that the heat can be directly used to make cement, melt steel!

Hooray for science!!! I'm so glad it's not just a bunch of platitudes.

So it sounds like the badass bit is not having the mirror just catch the sun but getting the reflected beams precisely aligned.


Go learn the chemistry of steel and cement.


The Parrot Killer
20-11-2019 22:11
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10253)
James___ wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
keepit wrote:...Heliogen announced a breakthrough....

Wow!! This is really great:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/19/business/heliogen-solar-energy-bill-gates/index.html

1000C so that the heat can be directly used to make cement, melt steel!

Hooray for science!!! I'm so glad it's not just a bunch of platitudes.

So it sounds like the badass bit is not having the mirror just catch the sun but getting the reflected beams precisely aligned.



It's not a new idea.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_plants_in_the_Mojave_Desert


I've flown over those things. They look like a bright light on a tower in the desert surrounded by many rings of mirrors.

They take up a lot of real estate and are expensive to build and maintain. It is one of the more expensive forms of energy, joule for joule.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 20-11-2019 22:12
21-11-2019 02:26
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1513)
James___ wrote:
keepit wrote:
Bill Gates' sponsored company Heliogen announced a breakthrough in harnessing the sun's energy to produce a much higher temperatures than before. Apparently this will allow the production of cement and steel without using fossil fuels. They're doing it by using special computers to more accurately (and more efficiently) aim solar panels so as to achieve the greater temps.



A special computer? Any pc should be able to run tracking software. I've done some cnc programming and an old 486 can do that. All you have is an x and a y axial tilt. The Sun's movement across the sky is well known. A special computer sounds like more money for Microsoft. Heck, NASA on its JPL website gives out that information for free.


Really? must of been a few years ago... Most 3d printers use an Arduino, which is just microcontroller and a few support parts. Pretty much anything CNC I've looked into uses a microcontroller, since it only needs to read G-Code of a SD card, or talk to a host computer, and handle sensors and stepper motors for hardware.

This aiming mirrors scheme was proven impractical years ago, works occasionally, under ideal conditions, but most of the time it's useless. They proved it could actually be done, but that was the only value in it, huge was of time and money.
21-11-2019 16:10
James___
★★★★☆
(1849)
HarveyH55 wrote:
James___ wrote:
keepit wrote:
Bill Gates' sponsored company Heliogen announced a breakthrough in harnessing the sun's energy to produce a much higher temperatures than before. Apparently this will allow the production of cement and steel without using fossil fuels. They're doing it by using special computers to more accurately (and more efficiently) aim solar panels so as to achieve the greater temps.



A special computer? Any pc should be able to run tracking software. I've done some cnc programming and an old 486 can do that. All you have is an x and a y axial tilt. The Sun's movement across the sky is well known. A special computer sounds like more money for Microsoft. Heck, NASA on its JPL website gives out that information for free.


Really? must of been a few years ago... Most 3d printers use an Arduino, which is just microcontroller and a few support parts. Pretty much anything CNC I've looked into uses a microcontroller, since it only needs to read G-Code of a SD card, or talk to a host computer, and handle sensors and stepper motors for hardware.

This aiming mirrors scheme was proven impractical years ago, works occasionally, under ideal conditions, but most of the time it's useless. They proved it could actually be done, but that was the only value in it, huge was of time and money.



This can give someone the Earth's and Moon's position, axial tilt, etc. Then [url] https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons.cgi[/url]

And with this, sunrise and sunset for your residence if you want. With reflecting sunlight, having a solar panel cycle its movement, the orientation for greatest solar radiation will be known.
[url] https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/[/url]

When they say "special computers" it sounds like an Apple monitor stand.
The Pro Stand, $999, is said by Apple to have 'an intricately engineered arm.'
Twitter user Aidan Lynch wrote in a tweet: "The pro stand costing more than most laptops and phones outside of Apple's realm is the ultimate middle finger to any consumer that is seriously considering their machine. Every new device Apple has released in the last year is a cash grab in exchange for no new functionality."
https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/05/tech/apple-monitor-expensive-intl-scli/index.html

Most people don't understand that the precisely shaped mirrors are extremely expensive. Yet Bill Gates says it's computers that make it a groundbreaking ideal that will save the world.
22-11-2019 06:00
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1585)
James___ wrote: It's not a new idea.
James this isn't to make electricity it's to use the heat directly! Making cement uses a tremendous amount of heat. So this technology is based on using solar heat directly to reduce the amount you have to generate.

HarveyH55 wrote:...They proved it could actually be done, ...huge was of time and money.
I'm sure someone said this every time a new technology poked it's beak out of the egg.
22-11-2019 12:02
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10253)
James___ wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
James___ wrote:
keepit wrote:
Bill Gates' sponsored company Heliogen announced a breakthrough in harnessing the sun's energy to produce a much higher temperatures than before. Apparently this will allow the production of cement and steel without using fossil fuels. They're doing it by using special computers to more accurately (and more efficiently) aim solar panels so as to achieve the greater temps.



A special computer? Any pc should be able to run tracking software. I've done some cnc programming and an old 486 can do that. All you have is an x and a y axial tilt. The Sun's movement across the sky is well known. A special computer sounds like more money for Microsoft. Heck, NASA on its JPL website gives out that information for free.


Really? must of been a few years ago... Most 3d printers use an Arduino, which is just microcontroller and a few support parts. Pretty much anything CNC I've looked into uses a microcontroller, since it only needs to read G-Code of a SD card, or talk to a host computer, and handle sensors and stepper motors for hardware.

This aiming mirrors scheme was proven impractical years ago, works occasionally, under ideal conditions, but most of the time it's useless. They proved it could actually be done, but that was the only value in it, huge was of time and money.



This can give someone the Earth's and Moon's position, axial tilt, etc. Then [url] https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons.cgi[/url]

And with this, sunrise and sunset for your residence if you want. With reflecting sunlight, having a solar panel cycle its movement, the orientation for greatest solar radiation will be known.
[url] https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/[/url]

When they say "special computers" it sounds like an Apple monitor stand.
The Pro Stand, $999, is said by Apple to have 'an intricately engineered arm.'
Twitter user Aidan Lynch wrote in a tweet: "The pro stand costing more than most laptops and phones outside of Apple's realm is the ultimate middle finger to any consumer that is seriously considering their machine. Every new device Apple has released in the last year is a cash grab in exchange for no new functionality."
https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/05/tech/apple-monitor-expensive-intl-scli/index.html

Most people don't understand that the precisely shaped mirrors are extremely expensive. Yet Bill Gates says it's computers that make it a groundbreaking ideal that will save the world.

A Raspberry Pi can control an array of mirrors and track the Sun across the sky.


The Parrot Killer
22-11-2019 12:06
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10253)
tmiddles wrote:
James___ wrote: It's not a new idea.
James this isn't to make electricity it's to use the heat directly! Making cement uses a tremendous amount of heat. So this technology is based on using solar heat directly to reduce the amount you have to generate.

HarveyH55 wrote:...They proved it could actually be done, ...huge was of time and money.
I'm sure someone said this every time a new technology poked it's beak out of the egg.


It's all about the market price of such a system for such a purpose.

Temperatures in a cement plant must be precisely controlled. That's difficult with solar heating.
Solar heating in a steel plant is quite useless. You cannot make steel out of iron that way.


The Parrot Killer
22-11-2019 16:41
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1585)
Into the Night wrote:
Temperatures in a cement plant must be precisely controlled.


You could use solar heat in combination with traditional heat.
22-11-2019 17:37
James___
★★★★☆
(1849)
tmiddles wrote:
James___ wrote: It's not a new idea.
James this isn't to make electricity it's to use the heat directly! Making cement uses a tremendous amount of heat. So this technology is based on using solar heat directly to reduce the amount you have to generate.

HarveyH55 wrote:...They proved it could actually be done, ...huge was of time and money.
I'm sure someone said this every time a new technology poked it's beak out of the egg.



I think of reflecting sunlight to a caveman discovering fire. Maybe you can do some math? Go with an average of 1,000 w/m^2 for peak solar irradiance. How many w/m^2 to raise the temperature how much?
How much energy is needed to meet supply and demand? How much of that demand will it meet?
I haven't seen any projections based on available solar irradiance and what actual impact it might have. In reality, creating an aquifer up in the Rockies makes more sense. Then a channel going down the mountain which is not a part of the Colorado River could be used exclusively for generating electricity. This is because it would have a massive pressure head and only the amount of water needed to generate power would be channeled away from any river system. And as such, the conduits the water flows through would be underground and not an eye sore. But that's long term sustainability, maybe.
22-11-2019 18:17
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1513)
tmiddles wrote:
James___ wrote: It's not a new idea.
James this isn't to make electricity it's to use the heat directly! Making cement uses a tremendous amount of heat. So this technology is based on using solar heat directly to reduce the amount you have to generate.

HarveyH55 wrote:...They proved it could actually be done, ...huge was of time and money.
I'm sure someone said this every time a new technology poked it's beak out of the egg.


Have any cement companies in your area? They generate a lot of dust around here. Probably be a little hostile for mirrors, and the mechanics to precisely aim all those mirrors.

I once thought it would bee cool to make a solar coffee pot. I have a 6 foot satellite dish in my backyard, got some Mylar bubble-wrap from work, that comes with some of the frozen products we receive, generally thrown out. The focus was already defined, where the LNB was attached. Never got water to boil though. But, never got to try it on a perfectly cloudless day. Even as imperfect as it was, it should have gotten fairly hot. Wouldn't light newspaper on fire, char wood, or anything cool and useful. But, I did learn that it's not going to work all the time. Maybe, I might get lucky, if I had kept with it, but other things to do.

You have to consider the size and expense of building such a device, and the small area being heated. They proved it could work, but it's just not worth the effort and expense. Only works when the sun is shining. It's less useful than acres of solar panels. A feel-good solution, that takes up a lot of real estate, and produce very little for the price.
22-11-2019 18:25
James___
★★★★☆
(1849)
I did some math,:
pressure head = 1,000 ft
flow rate. = 500 gpm
surface area of pipe = 1.21 in^2

will produce 36 kw of electricity. To equal the Hoover Dam, about 660 in^2 of surface area. And about 27,500 gpm. That's the first step in determining if an idea is feasible. Resources required to meet what need.

I checked and there is a stream that feeds into the Colorado River that has a flow rate of about 450 gpm. The length of pipe needed might not allow it to be economically feasible unless a steep grade was to be had. Hmm, drill a deep well and then bore a drain into the side of the mountain.
Then it's cost vs revenue.
Edited on 22-11-2019 18:49
22-11-2019 23:36
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1585)
James___ wrote:...How many w/m^2 to raise the temperature how much?...creating an aquifer up in the Rockies makes more sense....generating electricity.


This is address use of energy for heat in industrial processing. It's also not mutually exclusive with other solutions.

You take sun light and convert it to heat directly! That's smart.

I remember when solar first came on the scene the only thing they had going that was effective were the black, stupid simple, rook solar heaters so that your home water heater didn't need to use as much energy.

Same idea here.

HarveyH55 wrote:They proved it could work, but it's just not worth the effort and expense.
Solar power to generate even electricity works now and is worth the effort and expense.

Use solar power to generate heat is far less complex.

I do recall being severely annoyed as a cub scout once when someone was trying to cook a hot dog with some tin foil solar oven.
23-11-2019 05:17
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10253)
tmiddles wrote:
James___ wrote:...How many w/m^2 to raise the temperature how much?...creating an aquifer up in the Rockies makes more sense....generating electricity.


This is address use of energy for heat in industrial processing. It's also not mutually exclusive with other solutions.

You take sun light and convert it to heat directly! That's smart.

I remember when solar first came on the scene the only thing they had going that was effective were the black, stupid simple, rook solar heaters so that your home water heater didn't need to use as much energy.

Same idea here.

HarveyH55 wrote:They proved it could work, but it's just not worth the effort and expense.
Solar power to generate even electricity works now and is worth the effort and expense.

Use solar power to generate heat is far less complex.

I do recall being severely annoyed as a cub scout once when someone was trying to cook a hot dog with some tin foil solar oven.
It is one of the most expensive forms of energy, joule for joule. It is not free.


The Parrot Killer
23-11-2019 05:26
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1585)
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote: Solar power to generate even electricity works now ...
It is one of the most expensive forms of energy, joule for joule. It is not free.
It's often the best option. Cost is not the only consideration and cost per KW is based on a big plant vs a big plant. Solar is great because you can use it in places where nothing else is an option.

I bet you even have those solar powered garden lights on the stakes. You strike me as that guy.
Edited on 23-11-2019 05:26
23-11-2019 06:09
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5225)
tmiddles wrote:Cost is not the only consideration

Damn right! Diversity per kilowatt-hour is the main driver.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
23-11-2019 08:55
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1513)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote: Solar power to generate even electricity works now ...
It is one of the most expensive forms of energy, joule for joule. It is not free.
It's often the best option. Cost is not the only consideration and cost per KW is based on a big plant vs a big plant. Solar is great because you can use it in places where nothing else is an option.

I bet you even have those solar powered garden lights on the stakes. You strike me as that guy.


Solar farms produce 1 MW per 4 acres. To replace a small, 100 MW gas power plant you need 400 acres. Quite a spread of land. The gas plant takes up 2.6 acres. I don't know how to do a real comparison though. Solar only produces on sunny days, where gas doesn't matter, 24/7, except for maintenance. Tough to squeeze those kind of details out of Google. I've got a strong suspicion, that the year average isn't too impressive for solar.
23-11-2019 18:17
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10253)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote: Solar power to generate even electricity works now ...
It is one of the most expensive forms of energy, joule for joule. It is not free.
It's often the best option. Cost is not the only consideration and cost per KW is based on a big plant vs a big plant. Solar is great because you can use it in places where nothing else is an option.

I bet you even have those solar powered garden lights on the stakes. You strike me as that guy.


Nope. I use wired lighting. I find the solar lights are too dim.


The Parrot Killer
23-11-2019 18:21
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10253)
HarveyH55 wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote: Solar power to generate even electricity works now ...
It is one of the most expensive forms of energy, joule for joule. It is not free.
It's often the best option. Cost is not the only consideration and cost per KW is based on a big plant vs a big plant. Solar is great because you can use it in places where nothing else is an option.

I bet you even have those solar powered garden lights on the stakes. You strike me as that guy.


Solar farms produce 1 MW per 4 acres. To replace a small, 100 MW gas power plant you need 400 acres. Quite a spread of land. The gas plant takes up 2.6 acres. I don't know how to do a real comparison though. Solar only produces on sunny days, where gas doesn't matter, 24/7, except for maintenance. Tough to squeeze those kind of details out of Google. I've got a strong suspicion, that the year average isn't too impressive for solar.


Solar can produce on cloudy days. It's surprising how much energy still arrives even on a cloudy day. It is daylight, after all.

A solar farm can still produce on a cloudy day, just not quite as much.

Solar power needs maintenance just like anything. It is exposed to wind, dust, plants, critters, rain, and of course sunlight...all of which damage the panels or their wiring, in several cases permanently. The panels must be replaced. Not cheap.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 23-11-2019 18:23
23-11-2019 18:35
James___
★★★★☆
(1849)
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
James___ wrote:...How many w/m^2 to raise the temperature how much?...creating an aquifer up in the Rockies makes more sense....generating electricity.


This is address use of energy for heat in industrial processing. It's also not mutually exclusive with other solutions.

You take sun light and convert it to heat directly! That's smart.

I remember when solar first came on the scene the only thing they had going that was effective were the black, stupid simple, rook solar heaters so that your home water heater didn't need to use as much energy.

Same idea here.

HarveyH55 wrote:They proved it could work, but it's just not worth the effort and expense.
Solar power to generate even electricity works now and is worth the effort and expense.

Use solar power to generate heat is far less complex.

I do recall being severely annoyed as a cub scout once when someone was trying to cook a hot dog with some tin foil solar oven.
It is one of the most expensive forms of energy, joule for joule. It is not free.



It seems that even Arabs disagree with you. Could be why the IPO is being offered on the Saudi own petroleum business.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2018/01/13/renewable-energy-cost-effective-fossil-fuels-2020/

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-the-saudi-aramco-ipo-came-back-to-life-11574418637




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