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19-08-2019 20:54
keepit
★★★☆☆
(713)
Harvey,
JMHO but i think that $1000 per month won't cost that much because most of it will come back in in taxes.
I think the $1000 a month would be better spent than the money on the Iraq war and the recent tax cut that benefited mostly the rich.
19-08-2019 21:30
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
keepit wrote:
IBDM,
I just read the abstract of Hawking's thesis and i've read his popular books previously. To my knowledge they deal with an expanding universe, not an accelerating universe. You don't take his thesis as the final word, do you?

Study the Friedmann equation and you might see my point - at least if i have a valid point!


Really? What is it?


The Parrot Killer
19-08-2019 22:16
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5026)
@keepit, I'll try to keep the rhetoric down to a "simmer" setting but I need to beat you up a little more on economics:

keepit wrote:Harvey, JMHO but i think that $1000 per month won't cost that much because most of it will come back in in taxes.

What makes you think "most" of it will "come back in taxes"?

Let's say the vast majority of people receiving pay between 0% and 10%. The small minority will pay more so let's just take a rough estimated average of 12%, ergo the cost is $880 per month per person, of which there are $325 Million for a grand total of $286 Billion.

The US does not have this sort of discretionary spending and would have to print the money to that extent, as is done in every hyper-inflating economy in a death-spiral.

It is in everybody's best interest, first and foremost, to preserve the economy. If the US pulls a Zimbabwe, nobody will be "better off."



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU6yp4gL8Pw

keepit wrote: I think the $1000 a month would be better spent than the money on the Iraq war and the recent tax cut that benefited mostly the rich.

It's easy to justify money better spent than on a war, but there is no money spent on tax cuts. Whose philosophy are you regurgitating? Somebody had to tell you to believe that a reduction in expenditures is an increase in expenditures, and you had to allow yourself to accept the idea and to ultimately believe it.

You do know that tax cuts benefit those who pay taxes, yes? I presume that you are aware that the rich pay a chitload in taxes while the poor do not. Therefore you must realize that you simply stated the obvious with seemingly no point. Of course those who pay the most in taxes will benefit the most from a reduction in their burden. This amounts to reducing the burden of those who most add value to society, allowing them to further increase the value they add to society. We all benefit when that happens, especially the poor. Jobs are created when this happens. Have you heard that the US now has historically low record unemployment in general and across demographics, a foreseeable result of Trump's tax cuts? Are you aware of the businesses that voluntarily raised their hourly wages to $15 upon the announcement of the tax cuts? That helps minimum wage earners.

... all this with the benefit of strengthening the economy instead of killing it.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
19-08-2019 23:04
keepit
★★★☆☆
(713)
I like my econ better than yours but then, i like my kids better than other kids.
Re: tax on the $1000/month. Even though the $1000 doesn't get taxed much, the $1000 gets spent and respent many times and taxes come out of it each time it is respent.
The US can get away with printing so much money because the world trusts it. It is kind of a circular trust but it has worked.Re: Whose philosophy am i regurgitating? Ans: no one's, i'm regurgitating my own.
Trump tax: i'm not sure if the Trump tax cut caused the low unemployment. Unemployment has been steadily going down since Obama took over. Look at the chart if you don't believe me. It's like a giant supertanker, hard to change course.
Things such as these are more the result of the fed, the treasury, and the congress much more than the president. The president has a lot to do with confidence though.
I'm not sold on growing the economy, it just produces more CO2 and pollutants.
19-08-2019 23:52
keepit
★★★☆☆
(713)
I've been hearing this "printing too much money" and "foreign trade deficit" stuff for decades.
Yet things are petty good except for the climate situation.
I think we get away with the printing and foreign trade thing because we can send so many dollars out into the world without affecting our own inflation very much.
A change in world currency relationships could create a whole new ball game.
Maybe that is why bitcoin etc is alive.
19-08-2019 23:55
keepit
★★★☆☆
(713)
Re: Zimbabwe. If your flying along at 2000 miles an hour with SAM's and AAA you don't worry too much about the paint peeling.
In this the 2000 is the US economy and the paint is Zimbabwe.
20-08-2019 01:12
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
keepit wrote:
I like my econ better than yours but then, i like my kids better than other kids.
Re: tax on the $1000/month. Even though the $1000 doesn't get taxed much, the $1000 gets spent and respent many times and taxes come out of it each time it is respent.
The US can get away with printing so much money because the world trusts it. It is kind of a circular trust but it has worked.Re: Whose philosophy am i regurgitating? Ans: no one's, i'm regurgitating my own.
Trump tax: i'm not sure if the Trump tax cut caused the low unemployment. Unemployment has been steadily going down since Obama took over. Look at the chart if you don't believe me. It's like a giant supertanker, hard to change course.
Things such as these are more the result of the fed, the treasury, and the congress much more than the president. The president has a lot to do with confidence though.
I'm not sold on growing the economy, it just produces more CO2 and pollutants.


Reducing stupid regulations and letting people keep more of their money is what caused the low unemployment. Unemployment was quite definitely going up under Obama. He even called it the 'new normal'.

Only Carter and FDR had higher unemployment rates.


The Parrot Killer
20-08-2019 01:16
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
keepit wrote:
I've been hearing this "printing too much money" and "foreign trade deficit" stuff for decades.
Yet things are petty good except for the climate situation.

Define 'climate situation'.
keepit wrote:
I think we get away with the printing and foreign trade thing because we can send so many dollars out into the world without affecting our own inflation very much.

No, because most governments in the world are doing the same thing. Their currency has no commodity base either, with the single exception of Iran.
keepit wrote:
A change in world currency relationships could create a whole new ball game.

We are ALREADY in a new ball game. The world has NEVER experienced all the major currencies based on nothing more than the paper they are printed on.
keepit wrote:
Maybe that is why bitcoin etc is alive.

It isn't. It crashed too.


The Parrot Killer
20-08-2019 01:24
keepit
★★★☆☆
(713)
Where do you get your information ITN.
I just looked at the unemployment chart and show it has gone steadily down each year since 2009.
Bitcoin today is about 10000, not that i understand bitcoin but 10000 is quite a bit higher than usual.
20-08-2019 03:05
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1482)
keepit wrote:
Where do you get your information ITN.
I just looked at the unemployment chart and show it has gone steadily down each year since 2009.
Bitcoin today is about 10000, not that i understand bitcoin but 10000 is quite a bit higher than usual.


What chart? Shortly after Obama was elected, we went into a deep recession. Companies were already a little edgy on hiring, do to ObamaCare being expedited through congress, higher taxes. The unemployment rate, is based on number of people filing for Unemployment benefits. Obama cooked those numbers some, by extending benefits, for almost 3 years. They usually run out in 6 months. A lot of folks just rode out their benefits, didn't even seriously look for work. Guess a paycheck, is a paycheck, whether you earn it or not. Instead of letting the recession run it's course, Obama spent trillions, mostly bailout and give-away. Bought his way out, with borrowed money...

The recession was the work of Bill Clinton, who help people buy homes they couldn't afford. That help was stretch over 10 years of spending, which GW Bush could mess with, since a lot of people had bought homes, and obviously, would just lose them quicker. It was hoped, that these people understood that they were only had a short time to improve their income, or get their spending under control, before the program expired. I'm sure there were quite a few, who made it, but most bought new furniture, appliances, new cars, racked up quite a bit of debt, to go with their new house.

That's just one of those sneaky tricks politicians play, spending a lot of money, over a period of years, locked into the budget. Makes thing look so much better, then the money suddenly stops, people had forgotten. It's just a quick fix, and shifting the problem, plus the price, onto another president. I'm sure Bill Clinton had thought it would blow up a lot quicker than it did, and be a GW Bush problem, which Obama tried to blame it on anyway...
20-08-2019 03:28
keepit
★★★☆☆
(713)
Harvey,
Just google unemployment 20 years. I've seen the chart in other places too.
Obama inherited Bush's housing crisis and then gradually fixed the economy.
Clinton balanced the budget, a minor miracle.
Bush has to own the housing crisis, it was on his watch after 7 years in office.
Spending to prop up the economy is a tried and true method. I don't know if we're going to have a problem as a result. We've been doing it for decades.
Reagan was the first to do it on a big scale.
20-08-2019 03:51
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5026)
keepit wrote:Obama inherited Bush's housing crisis and then gradually fixed the economy.

Incorrect. Obama inherited Bill Clinton's housing crisis. Who told you that it was caused by Bush? Do you know anything about it?

Neither Obama nor Congress had any affect on the housing situation. The brunt of the correction was borne entirely by We the People.

.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
20-08-2019 03:56
keepit
★★★☆☆
(713)
The housing crisis happened after Bush had been in for 7 years.
The appraisers appraised everything too high so that the banks could make loans (which greatly peaked just before the crisis).
I don't exactly blame Bush, i blame the fed and the treasury and congress. They're the ones that hold the purse strings.
20-08-2019 04:01
keepit
★★★☆☆
(713)
"we the people " is valid but the management was done by the fed, the treasury, and congress.
"We the people" is kind of like CEO's and the workers (the workers being "we the people").
You have to give credit to both.
It's like a lot of things. The CEO's take credit for the profit that was greatly earned on the backs of workers.
20-08-2019 04:11
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5026)
keepit wrote: The housing crisis happened after Bush had been in for 7 years.

There is no amount of time that equates to being "the cause." Only the cause is "the cause" in a cause-effect.

Bill Clinton's National Home Ownership Strategy forced banks to lend money to those who didn't qualify by having the government buy up the loans to protect the banks exposure. Up until the housing crisis, the Federal Government was accumulating bad debt and building a morgage portfolio that was worth only a fraction of its face value.

Then the dam burst and you know the rest. It was entirely Bill Clinton.

It's ironic that Bill Clinton's motives were a factor in handing his wife a loss to Trump; We the People had had enough of that stench of the swamp.

.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
20-08-2019 04:16
keepit
★★★☆☆
(713)
What clinton did for home ownership was handled fairly well. When bush took over for those 7 years and appraisal grew , that is when the dam burst.
To say that is "entirely" clinton makes you lose credibility.
20-08-2019 04:22
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5026)
keepit wrote: What clinton did for home ownership was handled fairly well.

No. It was totally irresponsible.

keepit wrote: When bush took over for those 7 years and appraisal grew , that is when the dam burst.

The acceleration of the issuance of bad loans was a direct result of Bill Clinton absolving banks of all risk by guaranteeing that the Fed would buy up the loans. The banks could only win and We the People could only lose. George Bush had nothing to do with that. Obama had nothing to do with that.

Bill Clinton is the only one to blame for the housing crisis. He owns it totally.


.




To say that is "entirely" clinton makes you lose credibility.[/quote]


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
20-08-2019 05:15
keepit
★★★☆☆
(713)
I just don't agree. The housing was handled until it burst as a result of a number of excesses in bush's final two years.
20-08-2019 05:38
GasGuzzler
★★★★☆
(1477)
keepit wrote:
I just don't agree. The housing was handled until it burst as a result of a number of excesses in bush's final two years.


Can you name one?


spot-
Into the Night is also has delusions of comptance
20-08-2019 10:47
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1482)
keepit wrote:
Harvey,
Just google unemployment 20 years. I've seen the chart in other places too.
Obama inherited Bush's housing crisis and then gradually fixed the economy.
Clinton balanced the budget, a minor miracle.
Bush has to own the housing crisis, it was on his watch after 7 years in office.
Spending to prop up the economy is a tried and true method. I don't know if we're going to have a problem as a result. We've been doing it for decades.
Reagan was the first to do it on a big scale.


Bill Clinton's budget balancing was just clever money shifting. He still spent more than we were taking in, he just stretched it out over many years, or put a future start date on it. He got the spending locked into the budget, but that money didn't actually get spent until later. Just appear like a balanced budget. Sort of like winning the lottery, you can take the lump-sum, which is maybe half, considering taxes, or go for the full prize, over twenty years.

Unemployment skyrocket during Obama's first term, not sure if he broke records, but most definitely didn't decline. I don't even have a little doubt, that would motivate me to google it. It was a bigger crisis than global warming ever was. People were either getting laid off, or constantly worried they could be laid off. There wasn't jobs, no hiring, since a lot of companies were considering laying-off more workers. The company I worked for, warned us of possible lay-offs, but our sales stayed strong. We actually started hiring, as you usually did during the heavy summer months, and through the fall/winter holidays.
20-08-2019 13:02
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5026)
keepit wrote:
I just don't agree. The housing was handled until it burst as a result of a number of excesses in bush's final two years.

There was no "housing being handled." That makes no sense.

Are you in denial over the Fed buying bad debt under Clinton's program throughout Bush's two terms?


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
20-08-2019 17:31
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)

keepit wrote:
Where do you get your information ITN.
I just looked at the unemployment chart and show it has gone steadily down each year since 2009.

Lie The only time unemployement was higher than under Obama was under Carter or FDR.
Today, under Trump, unemployement has reached a low not seen since the 60's.
keepit wrote:
Bitcoin today is about 10000, not that i understand bitcoin but 10000 is quite a bit higher than usual.

Then buy it. You too can lose money in bitcoin.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 20-08-2019 17:43
20-08-2019 17:36
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
keepit wrote:
Harvey,
Just google unemployment 20 years. I've seen the chart in other places too.

Then you obviously haven't looked at them. I've looked at the charts going back to the War of Secession (the so-called 'civil war').
keepit wrote:
Obama inherited Bush's housing crisis and then gradually fixed the economy.

No, Clinton pass those laws.
keepit wrote:
Clinton balanced the budget, a minor miracle.

No. Clinton hid the budget. It was smoke and mirrors, and he got caught at it.
keepit wrote:
Bush has to own the housing crisis, it was on his watch after 7 years in office.

No. Bush simply didn't reverse what Clinton did.
keepit wrote:
Spending to prop up the economy is a tried and true method. I don't know if we're going to have a problem as a result. We've been doing it for decades.

No. Price controls never work.
keepit wrote:
Reagan was the first to do it on a big scale.

No. FDR was.


The Parrot Killer
20-08-2019 17:38
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
keepit wrote:
The housing crisis happened after Bush had been in for 7 years.
The appraisers appraised everything too high so that the banks could make loans (which greatly peaked just before the crisis).
I don't exactly blame Bush, i blame the fed and the treasury and congress. They're the ones that hold the purse strings.


They weren't investing in housing, dumbass. It was Clinton's housing laws and easy money from the Fed that created the housing crisis.

Price controls never work.


The Parrot Killer
20-08-2019 17:38
keepit
★★★☆☆
(713)
Harvey,
Shifting money around i what they do!
Printing money is what they do!
We have to live with it.
20-08-2019 17:38
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
keepit wrote:
"we the people " is valid but the management was done by the fed, the treasury, and congress.
"We the people" is kind of like CEO's and the workers (the workers being "we the people").
You have to give credit to both.
It's like a lot of things. The CEO's take credit for the profit that was greatly earned on the backs of workers.


The Fed was following the laws set by the Clintons.


The Parrot Killer
20-08-2019 17:40
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
keepit wrote:
What clinton did for home ownership was handled fairly well. When bush took over for those 7 years and appraisal grew , that is when the dam burst.
To say that is "entirely" clinton makes you lose credibility.


Nope. That law was passed entirely under the Clinton administration.


The Parrot Killer
20-08-2019 17:41
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
keepit wrote:
I just don't agree. The housing was handled until it burst as a result of a number of excesses in bush's final two years.


What excesses?


The Parrot Killer
20-08-2019 17:44
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
keepit wrote:
Harvey,
Shifting money around i what they do!
Printing money is what they do!
We have to live with it.


Why?


The Parrot Killer
20-08-2019 17:52
keepit
★★★☆☆
(713)
The housing bubble bursting was the result of wall street manipulations and home appraisal manipulations that occurred just prior to the actual bursting.
To blame clinton is obviously political nonsense.
20-08-2019 18:04
keepit
★★★☆☆
(713)
One fundamental thing about inflation and printing money - we need inflation because,properly controlled, it helps pay off debt.
Guess what , it's properly controlled. And it will be until someone of the money folk makes a big mistake.
20-08-2019 20:45
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5026)
keepit wrote: One fundamental thing about inflation and printing money - we need inflation because,properly controlled, it helps pay off debt.

Nope. This is absurd.

First, only paying off debt helps pay off debt.

Second, if you are talking about debt diminishing over time then that risk of inflation has already been forthwith accounted by the lender when the repayment schedule was determined.

.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
20-08-2019 22:26
keepit
★★★☆☆
(713)
Yeah, inflation over time diminishes the effect of debt.
20-08-2019 23:09
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5026)
keepit wrote:Yeah, inflation over time diminishes the effect of debt.

... but it effectively does not, for the reason I mentioned.

.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
21-08-2019 00:01
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1482)
keepit wrote:
One fundamental thing about inflation and printing money - we need inflation because,properly controlled, it helps pay off debt.
Guess what , it's properly controlled. And it will be until someone of the money folk makes a big mistake.


Debt is debt, your income is barely adjusted for the cost of living, because it's related to the cost of doing business. Handing out raises are sort on the bottom of the list. Inflation makes everything cost more, meaning your paycheck doesn't go quite as far, you need to spend more. If you have less income left to pay debt, how is inflation actually helping?
21-08-2019 00:04
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
keepit wrote:
The housing bubble bursting was the result of wall street manipulations and home appraisal manipulations that occurred just prior to the actual bursting.
To blame clinton is obviously political nonsense.


Nope. it was Clinton's housing law.


The Parrot Killer
21-08-2019 00:19
keepit
★★★☆☆
(713)
Harvey,
I guess the help is for the ones that have the huge money people who incur a lot of debt in order to do business.
21-08-2019 02:51
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
keepit wrote:
Harvey,
I guess the help is for the ones that have the huge money people who incur a lot of debt in order to do business.


Word salad.


The Parrot Killer
21-08-2019 04:57
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1482)
Under socialism, if the government is paying for everything, what is the incentive to work, or own a business? There is no financial gain in it for anyone, any profit would go straight to the government to be redistributed to people who choose not to work. I don't mind working, but it's a lot easy, knowing that I'll have money to get the thing I want and need. I don't work, because I enjoy it, and nothing better to do with my life. Only people loving socialism, are people who don't have the motivation to work, and pay their own way threw life. You don't get rich spending your own money, and it's real easy to spend somebody else's.
21-08-2019 05:45
keepit
★★★☆☆
(713)
Harvey,
I get what you're saying. I'm just trying to figure a way to stop global warming.
I don't think humanity is going to stop producing CO2 unless they have a lot of leadership. I hope it doesn't turn into socialism.
Edited on 21-08-2019 05:46
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