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One step at a time...11-12-2019 03:56
Harry CProfile picture★☆☆☆☆
(143)
I'm back and really do want to understand the debate. I know the prevailing arguments here. However I want to make another attempt to step very slowly through the points to find the breaking point with a series of questions. Here's the first five.

First question: Is the surface of the earth hotter or colder than it would be without its atmosphere.

Second question: What is it that makes the surface of the earth hotter or colder because of the atmosphere?

Third question: If the answer is gas, excluding water vapor, how does it change the temperature on the surface of the earth? Name the gasses, their effect on temperature and the physical properties that cause the effect.

Fourth question: What effect does water vapor have, if any, on the warming or cooling of the surface of the earth?

Fifth question: How does water vapor occur in the atmosphere? Would it be there without gas in the atmosphere?


You learn something new every day if you are lucky!
11-12-2019 07:58
spot
★★★★☆
(1323)
Harry C wrote:
I'm back and really do want to understand the debate. I know the prevailing arguments here. However I want to make another attempt to step very slowly through the points to find the breaking point with a series of questions. Here's the first five.

First question: Is the surface of the earth hotter or colder than it would be without its atmosphere.

Second question: What is it that makes the surface of the earth hotter or colder because of the atmosphere?

Third question: If the answer is gas, excluding water vapor, how does it change the temperature on the surface of the earth? Name the gasses, their effect on temperature and the physical properties that cause the effect.

Fourth question: What effect does water vapor have, if any, on the warming or cooling of the surface of the earth?

Fifth question: How does water vapor occur in the atmosphere? Would it be there without gas in the atmosphere?


With respect this is the worst place to be asking those questions. Half of the people who answer will be giving you misleading answers as a joke

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/05/start-here/

Is a better place to find answers.


IBdaMann wrote:
"Air" is not a body in and of itself. Ergo it is not a blackbody.


Planck's law describes the spectral density of electromagnetic radiation emitted by a black body in thermal equilibrium at a given temperature T.
11-12-2019 09:38
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3375)
Harry C wrote:
Is the [ground level] surface of the earth hotter or colder than it would be without its atmosphere.
I add "Ground" as I assume that's what you mean. The "surface" of an object would take it as a totality so for Earth the gases we call an atmosphere are also "Earth" and constitute part of it's "Surface". So we KNOW (yes we really do) that the ground level temperature on Earth differs from what we would have without an atmosphere in that the mean temperature, the average, is about 30 C hotter. Also the extremes are less severe, so it doesn't get as cold or as hot in it's highs and lows. We KNOW this from two sources: the math on how much energy we get from the sun would determine a mean temp of -18C, and we're at 15C, and we have actually been to the moon, same distance from the sun with no atmosphere, and it confirms the math with a mean temp of -23C with extreme highs and lows.

Harry C wrote:
Second question: What is it that makes the surface of the earth hotter or colder because of the atmosphere?
Thermal Energy moves through matter. Given more matter to move through an atmosphere "stores up" the thermal energy resulting from the suns radiance. There is a correlation between how massive an atmosphere is and the ground level temp. link

Harry C wrote:
Third question: If the answer is gas, excluding water vapor, how does it change the temperature on the surface of the earth? Name the gasses, their effect on temperature and the physical properties that cause the effect.
"Their effect on temperature"? You seem to be a bit confused about thermal energy and matter. All matter, as far as I know, has thermal energy and is capable of gaining more of it. So the gases of the atmosphere have thermal energy. When the sun pumps in more radiance, and some of it is absorbed and becomes thermal energy, the gases get some of it because they are there to receive it by absorbing radiance, conducting and convecting.
To address what I think it going wrong with your question:
There are TWO concepts that should be tackled one at a time:
1- Does an atmosphere result in a warmer ground level. Answer is not in real doubt: YES
2- Do certain gases, the composition of the atmosphere, result in a warmer ground level. As in would two equally massive atmospheres, with a different composition of gases, result in a different ground level temperature and precisely how. Answer: Wow that's pretty complicated and not a Yes or No question.

Don't pretend because the nuances of how different gasses play a roll being unclear in anyway makes it unclear that "An atmosphere", any atmosphere, makes the ground level warmer.

Question 2 is largely the topic that should be discussed here. Personally I'm very skeptical about the gospel on that one: do-i-have-the-co2-calamity-math-right

Harry C wrote:
Fourth question: What effect does water vapor have, if any, on the warming or cooling of the surface of the earth?
Water vapor, CO2 and a few lesser players are known to be very good at absorbing infrared radiance. This means that they absorb more radiance, resulting in thermal energy, to a greater degree than other gases because other gases largely "miss out" on radiance as they are transparent to it.

Harry C wrote:
Fifth question: How does water vapor occur in the atmosphere? Would it be there without gas in the atmosphere?
It's simply when liquid water changes state to become a gas. Yes it would still evaporate into a gassless vaccum (and does when we create a vacuum with water in the chamber). A vaccuum is the same as totally dry air with 0% humidity.
Edited on 11-12-2019 09:44
11-12-2019 15:52
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13295)
Harry C wrote:
I'm back and really do want to understand the debate. I know the prevailing arguments here. However I want to make another attempt to step very slowly through the points to find the breaking point with a series of questions. Here's the first five.

First question: Is the surface of the earth hotter or colder than it would be without its atmosphere.

Neither. It is cooler during the day than it would be without an atmosphere, and it is warmer at night than it would be without an atmosphere.
Harry C wrote:
Second question: What is it that makes the surface of the earth hotter or colder because of the atmosphere?

Nothing.
Harry C wrote:
Third question: If the answer is gas, excluding water vapor, how does it change the temperature on the surface of the earth? Name the gasses, their effect on temperature and the physical properties that cause the effect.

None.
Harry C wrote:
Fourth question: What effect does water vapor have, if any, on the warming or cooling of the surface of the earth?

None.
Harry C wrote:
Fifth question: How does water vapor occur in the atmosphere? Would it be there without gas in the atmosphere?

This is two questions.

Water vapor occurs where there is water. It forms as a result of water molecules wandering off from the liquid or solid, typically into an atmosphere.

Yes. Water vapor forms even without an atmosphere. Indeed, it forms more easily!

Water vapor is invisible.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
11-12-2019 15:53
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13295)
spot wrote:
Harry C wrote:
I'm back and really do want to understand the debate. I know the prevailing arguments here. However I want to make another attempt to step very slowly through the points to find the breaking point with a series of questions. Here's the first five.

First question: Is the surface of the earth hotter or colder than it would be without its atmosphere.

Second question: What is it that makes the surface of the earth hotter or colder because of the atmosphere?

Third question: If the answer is gas, excluding water vapor, how does it change the temperature on the surface of the earth? Name the gasses, their effect on temperature and the physical properties that cause the effect.

Fourth question: What effect does water vapor have, if any, on the warming or cooling of the surface of the earth?

Fifth question: How does water vapor occur in the atmosphere? Would it be there without gas in the atmosphere?


With respect this is the worst place to be asking those questions. Half of the people who answer will be giving you misleading answers as a joke

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/05/start-here/

Is a better place to find answers.


Holy Links to the Church of Global Warming are not answers.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
11-12-2019 19:12
spot
★★★★☆
(1323)
Into the Night wrote:
spot wrote:
Harry C wrote:
I'm back and really do want to understand the debate. I know the prevailing arguments here. However I want to make another attempt to step very slowly through the points to find the breaking point with a series of questions. Here's the first five.

First question: Is the surface of the earth hotter or colder than it would be without its atmosphere.

Second question: What is it that makes the surface of the earth hotter or colder because of the atmosphere?

Third question: If the answer is gas, excluding water vapor, how does it change the temperature on the surface of the earth? Name the gasses, their effect on temperature and the physical properties that cause the effect.

Fourth question: What effect does water vapor have, if any, on the warming or cooling of the surface of the earth?

Fifth question: How does water vapor occur in the atmosphere? Would it be there without gas in the atmosphere?


With respect this is the worst place to be asking those questions. Half of the people who answer will be giving you misleading answers as a joke

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/05/start-here/

Is a better place to find answers.


Holy Links to the Church of Global Warming are not answers.


I think he is better served by being encouraged to find his own answers


IBdaMann wrote:
"Air" is not a body in and of itself. Ergo it is not a blackbody.


Planck's law describes the spectral density of electromagnetic radiation emitted by a black body in thermal equilibrium at a given temperature T.
11-12-2019 19:49
James___
★★★★★
(3172)
Harry C wrote:
I'm back and really do want to understand the debate. I know the prevailing arguments here. However I want to make another attempt to step very slowly through the points to find the breaking point with a series of questions. Here's the first five.

First question: Is the surface of the earth hotter or colder than it would be without its atmosphere.

Second question: What is it that makes the surface of the earth hotter or colder because of the atmosphere?

Third question: If the answer is gas, excluding water vapor, how does it change the temperature on the surface of the earth? Name the gasses, their effect on temperature and the physical properties that cause the effect.

Fourth question: What effect does water vapor have, if any, on the warming or cooling of the surface of the earth?

Fifth question: How does water vapor occur in the atmosphere? Would it be there without gas in the atmosphere?



What's often overlooked is that the Van Allen Radiation belts cool the Earth.
https://crev.info/2018/06/van-allen-belts-protect-earth-solar-wind/
If not for this then the Earth would be much hotter.

I think the 2nd question is what's actually being debated. Most research actually points to ozone depletion.
The missing heat https://www.nature.com/news/climate-change-the-case-of-the-missing-heat-1.14525
that the IPCC found https://earthdata.nasa.gov/learn/sensing-our-planet/missing-heat and how the Pacific can warm https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/01/ocean-heat-waves-pacific-s-deadly-blob-could-become-new-normal because of the https://www.britannica.com/place/Ring-of-Fire.
Some said global warming paused because ozone depletion was limited https://phys.org/news/2019-12-ozone-layer-global.html.

The science actually suggests ozone depletion as the cause of warming at the end of the 20th century. I don't think it's possible for the oceans to account for over 90% of global warming. The only way that could happen is if the thermohaline circulation as a whole is slowing. While that would be climate change, it would not be because of CO2. CO2 would increase the air temperature where it's at and then that heat would radiate into the oceans. But the surface ocean temps warm the land because of wind patterns. The thermodynamics is backwards.
11-12-2019 23:08
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7465)
Harry C wrote:First question: Is the surface of the earth hotter or colder than it would be without its atmosphere.

Let's reword your questions a slight bit to be clearer.

"Is the bottom of the earth's atmosphere hotter or colder than it would be without an atmosphere?"

Well, that sound like a somewhat silly question. The answer is both. Look at the moon which has negligible atmosphere. The nighttime side of the moon gets far, far colder than any point on the surface of the earth. The daytime side of the moon gets so hot that oceans would boil away were they present.

Harry C wrote: Second question: What is it that makes the surface of the earth hotter or colder because of the atmosphere?

The atmosphere effectively transfers large amounts of thermal energy around the planet, i.e. nighttime is warmer and daytime remains cooler, whereas a lack of an atmosphere transfers no thermal energy whatsoever.

Harry C wrote: Third question: If the answer is gas, excluding water vapor, how does it change the temperature on the surface of the earth?

See previous response.

Harry C wrote: Fourth question: What effect does water vapor have, if any, on the warming or cooling of the surface of the earth?

It transfers thermal energy very effectively, and there is a lot of it in the atmosphere.

Harry C wrote: Fifth question: How does water vapor occur in the atmosphere? Would it be there without gas in the atmosphere?

Water vapor is a gas. You can't have water vapor without any gas. It obeys the ideal gas law. Water evaporates in liquid or solid state.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
11-12-2019 23:45
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13295)
spot wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
spot wrote:
Harry C wrote:
I'm back and really do want to understand the debate. I know the prevailing arguments here. However I want to make another attempt to step very slowly through the points to find the breaking point with a series of questions. Here's the first five.

First question: Is the surface of the earth hotter or colder than it would be without its atmosphere.

Second question: What is it that makes the surface of the earth hotter or colder because of the atmosphere?

Third question: If the answer is gas, excluding water vapor, how does it change the temperature on the surface of the earth? Name the gasses, their effect on temperature and the physical properties that cause the effect.

Fourth question: What effect does water vapor have, if any, on the warming or cooling of the surface of the earth?

Fifth question: How does water vapor occur in the atmosphere? Would it be there without gas in the atmosphere?


With respect this is the worst place to be asking those questions. Half of the people who answer will be giving you misleading answers as a joke

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/05/start-here/

Is a better place to find answers.


Holy Links to the Church of Global Warming are not answers.


I think he is better served by being encouraged to find his own answers

What answers?


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
11-12-2019 23:52
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13295)
James___ wrote:
Harry C wrote:
I'm back and really do want to understand the debate. I know the prevailing arguments here. However I want to make another attempt to step very slowly through the points to find the breaking point with a series of questions. Here's the first five.

First question: Is the surface of the earth hotter or colder than it would be without its atmosphere.

Second question: What is it that makes the surface of the earth hotter or colder because of the atmosphere?

Third question: If the answer is gas, excluding water vapor, how does it change the temperature on the surface of the earth? Name the gasses, their effect on temperature and the physical properties that cause the effect.

Fourth question: What effect does water vapor have, if any, on the warming or cooling of the surface of the earth?

Fifth question: How does water vapor occur in the atmosphere? Would it be there without gas in the atmosphere?



What's often overlooked is that the Van Allen Radiation belts cool the Earth.
https://crev.info/2018/06/van-allen-belts-protect-earth-solar-wind/
If not for this then the Earth would be much hotter.

I think the 2nd question is what's actually being debated. Most research actually points to ozone depletion.

The ozone is not being depleted.
James___ wrote:
The missing heat https://www.nature.com/news/climate-change-the-case-of-the-missing-heat-1.14525
that the IPCC found https://earthdata.nasa.gov/learn/sensing-our-planet/missing-heat and how the Pacific can warm https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/01/ocean-heat-waves-pacific-s-deadly-blob-could-become-new-normal because of the https://www.britannica.com/place/Ring-of-Fire.
Some said global warming paused because ozone depletion was limited https://phys.org/news/2019-12-ozone-layer-global.html.

The ozone layer is not a source of energy. You can't create energy out of nothing. No gas or vapor has the capability to warm the Earth.
James___ wrote:
The science actually suggests ozone depletion as the cause of warming at the end of the 20th century.
No science here. Buzzword fallacy.
James___ wrote:
I don't think it's possible for the oceans to account for over 90% of global warming.
Define 'global warming'. Buzzword fallacy.
James___ wrote:
The only way that could happen is if the thermohaline circulation as a whole is slowing.

Ocean circulation does not warm the Earth. Buzzword fallacy.
James___ wrote:
While that would be climate change,
Define 'climate change'. Buzzword fallacy.
James___ wrote:
it would not be because of CO2.
Undefined words and phrases don't happen because of CO2.
James___ wrote:
CO2 would increase the air temperature where it's at
Not possible. You can't create energy out of nothing.
James___ wrote:
and then that heat would radiate into the oceans.
Heat is not contained in anything.
James___ wrote:
But the surface ocean temps warm the land because of wind patterns.
You cannot heat a warmer object with a colder one.
James___ wrote:
The thermodynamics is backwards.


No, YOU are backwards.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
12-12-2019 00:45
spot
★★★★☆
(1323)
Into the Night wrote:

I think he is better served by being encouraged to find his own answers

What answers?[/quote]

Answers to the questions he has.


IBdaMann wrote:
"Air" is not a body in and of itself. Ergo it is not a blackbody.


Planck's law describes the spectral density of electromagnetic radiation emitted by a black body in thermal equilibrium at a given temperature T.
12-12-2019 01:40
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13295)
spot wrote:
Into the Night wrote:

I think he is better served by being encouraged to find his own answers

What answers?


Answers to the questions he has.[/quote]
You didn't give any.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
12-12-2019 17:56
spot
★★★★☆
(1323)
Into the Night wrote:
spot wrote:
Into the Night wrote:

I think he is better served by being encouraged to find his own answers

What answers?


Answers to the questions he has.

You didn't give any.[/quote]

Correct I don't know everything but I can say how I would go about finding things out.


IBdaMann wrote:
"Air" is not a body in and of itself. Ergo it is not a blackbody.


Planck's law describes the spectral density of electromagnetic radiation emitted by a black body in thermal equilibrium at a given temperature T.
12-12-2019 18:07
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13295)
spot wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
spot wrote:
Into the Night wrote:

I think he is better served by being encouraged to find his own answers

What answers?


Answers to the questions he has.

You didn't give any.


Correct I don't know everything but I can say how I would go about finding things out.[/quote]
The site you linked to doesn't give any answers either.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
12-12-2019 18:46
spot
★★★★☆
(1323)
Into the Night wrote:
spot wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
spot wrote:
Into the Night wrote:

I think he is better served by being encouraged to find his own answers

What answers?


Answers to the questions he has.

You didn't give any.


Correct I don't know everything but I can say how I would go about finding things out.

The site you linked to doesn't give any answers either.[/quote]

You read it?


IBdaMann wrote:
"Air" is not a body in and of itself. Ergo it is not a blackbody.


Planck's law describes the spectral density of electromagnetic radiation emitted by a black body in thermal equilibrium at a given temperature T.




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