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Measurement vs. scientific principles


Measurement vs. scientific principles10-02-2020 02:48
keepit
★★★★☆
(1757)
Which one should be trusted more? Measurements can clearly be inadequate and scientific principles can be misinterpreted, not to mention the fact that they change from decade to decade.
10-02-2020 04:15
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7570)
keepit wrote: Which one should be trusted more? Measurements can clearly be inadequate and scientific principles can be misinterpreted, not to mention the fact that they change from decade to decade.

Nope.

All measurements have error; this is identified in all valid datasets.

Science is not subjective and is completely unambiguous. There is no issue of misinterpretation.



.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
10-02-2020 05:01
James___
★★★★★
(3447)
keepit wrote:
Which one should be trusted more? Measurements can clearly be inadequate and scientific principles can be misinterpreted, not to mention the fact that they change from decade to decade.



I think how data is interpreted is the primary issue. That's why the debate exists. Definitions of empirical and peer review have also been changed.
10-02-2020 08:25
keepit
★★★★☆
(1757)
IBDM,
I can't think of anything that is completely unambiguous. Not relativity, not plate tectonics, not quantum theory, not climate science, etc. Well, maybe some basic math is but math is just a description, it doesn't explain mechanisms usually.
10-02-2020 17:24
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7570)
keepit wrote:
IBDM,I can't think of anything that is completely unambiguous.

This is quite the testament to your cognitive shortcomings. Let me help you. Here's an example.

"You are reading this statement right now."

keepit wrote: Not relativity,
Yes, Relativity is unambiguous.

keepit wrote:not quantum theory

Quantum theory is unambiguous.

keepit wrote: Well, maybe some basic math is but math is just a description, it doesn't explain mechanisms usually.

Explaining mechanisms is not a requirement of unambiguity.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
10-02-2020 19:23
keepit
★★★★☆
(1757)
IBDM,
Did you get your information about my cognitive characteristics out of the "Data Mine" or the "Manual"?
10-02-2020 20:26
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7570)
keepit wrote: IBDM, Did you get your information about my cognitive characteristics out of the "Data Mine" or the "Manual"?

Nope, ... from your posts ... and your batting average.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
10-02-2020 21:12
keepit
★★★★☆
(1757)
IBDM,
Well, i'm almost done with my 8th decade. Among your countless conclusions about my cognitive characteristics have you concluded that uncle al has come to visit me?
10-02-2020 21:45
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7570)
keepit wrote:IBDM, Well, i'm almost done with my 8th decade. Among your countless conclusions about my cognitive characteristics have you concluded that uncle al has come to visit me?

What did he tell you about Greenhouse Effect? Is it really caused by Spot under the staircase?


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
10-02-2020 23:12
James___
★★★★★
(3447)
IBdaMann wrote:
keepit wrote:IBDM, Well, i'm almost done with my 8th decade. Among your countless conclusions about my cognitive characteristics have you concluded that uncle al has come to visit me?

What did he tell you about Greenhouse Effect? Is it really caused by Spot under the staircase?


.



Have you 2 tried marriage counselling? I heard it helps.
14-02-2020 00:45
keepit
★★★★☆
(1757)
In general do you need measurements to make decisions or do you need scientific principles? For example, and this is for ITN, do you need precise measurements to fly the plane or do you need approximate measurements plus knowledge of aerodynamics to make decisions?
14-02-2020 01:08
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7570)
keepit wrote:
In general do you need measurements to make decisions or do you need scientific principles? For example, and this is for ITN, do you need precise measurements to fly the plane or do you need approximate measurements plus knowledge of aerodynamics to make decisions?


A tactical nighttime IFR landing anyone?

Hey Into the Night, would you be OK with a aircraft fuel gauge that told you you had, say an eighth of a tank more than you had?

Would you be OK with an ILS positioning that was only off by a couple of hundred meters?


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
14-02-2020 01:12
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3491)
IBdaMann wrote:...an ILS positioning that was only off by a couple of hundred meters?
Oooh good question IBD.

ITN how accurate (I think that's the right word) would the ILS need to be for you to agree to fly the plane?
Edited on 14-02-2020 02:02
14-02-2020 01:20
keepit
★★★★☆
(1757)
Night time instrument landings are easier than daytime because the lights go through the fog in the night but don't help much during the day.

A couple hundred meter mistake in and ILS landing is totally unacceptable. Even 50 feet is unacceptable. The point is measurements in climate change may be inadequate whereas making decisions based on scientific principles may be sufficient.
Edited on 14-02-2020 01:23
14-02-2020 01:22
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7570)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:...an ILS positioning that was only off by a couple of hundred meters?
Oooh good question IBD.

ITN how accurate (I think that's the right word) would the ILS need to be for you to agree to fly the plain?


You need to specify ... how accurate he needs it to be to fly the fruited plain.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
14-02-2020 01:24
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7570)
keepit wrote:Night time instrument landings are easier than daytime because the lights go through the fog in the night but don't help much during the day.


The person who reads your posts to you omitted the word "tactical." There are no lights in a tactical landing.

Have you ever been in a war zone?


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
14-02-2020 01:25
keepit
★★★★☆
(1757)
No
14-02-2020 01:46
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7570)
keepit wrote: No

Well, lights are verboten (Dft - Deutsch for tmiddles) inside the warzone. Inside the aircraft only dim, red lights are allowed, to permit safe, basic movement about by the crew as needed.

Tactical landings typically involve the pilot rotating the wings to near vertical and just dropping the aircraft vertically (not completely but close) to a low altitude close to the landing zone and then quickly landing. Of course this is done at night so that adversaries cannot see the aircraft and have no time to react to the aircraft's presence.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
27-02-2020 20:16
keepit
★★★★☆
(1757)
The coronavirus situation in the us is a good example of being unable at this point to measure the prevalence of the virus. But we do have medical (scientific) principles to guide us. Epidemiologists have many of these. It's what they do.
So, do we do nothing because we can't measure or do we do something based on known scientific principles?
By the way, this is a good analogy to global warming mitigation.
27-02-2020 21:28
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7570)
keepit wrote:The coronavirus situation in the us is a good example of being unable at this point to measure the prevalence of the virus.

Are you referring to a "virus" of the standard formal definition:

Virus: noun
an infectious and extremely complex organic molecule consisting of a protein coating surrounding an RNA or DNA core of genetic material with no semipermeable membrane that is capable of growth and multiplication, but only within living cells and therefore causes disease and illness.

... or are you talking about some undefined hijacking of a common word in the English language, used as an empty buzzword to pepper a WACKY religious dogma?

keepit wrote: But we do have medical (scientific) principles to guide us.

... only because you are referring to a term with a formal, unambiguous biological definition, and not some religious buzzword peppering a WACKY religious dogma.

keepit wrote:By the way, this is a good analogy to global warming mitigation.

It's more of a counterexample. Global Warming is an undefined buzzword peppering a WACKY religious dogma and has no meaning for those outside the faith. Science does not apply in such cases. There is no way to "mitigate" that which is not real.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
27-02-2020 23:11
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3491)
IBdaMann wrote:
Are you referring to...
Grab a newspaper. I know that hut in the woods is isolated but come on man.

keepit wrote:...we do have medical (scientific) principles to guide us. ....
So, do we do nothing because we can't measure...
Yeah there is not such thing as skipping a plan of action. Having no policy/intervention/regulation is a very active plan full of consequences.

In deciding what to do: the consequences of inaction are inversely proportional to the certainty we have that taking action is worthwhile and the cost of that action.
27-02-2020 23:33
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13826)
keepit wrote:
In general do you need measurements to make decisions

Nope. It is easily possible to make decisions without any measurements at all.
keepit wrote:
or do you need scientific principles?

Science isn't a 'principle'. It is a set of theories.
keepit wrote:
For example, and this is for ITN, do you need precise measurements to fly the plane

Nope. Just look out the window (if you have one!
).
keepit wrote:
or do you need approximate measurements plus knowledge of aerodynamics to make decisions?

Nope. You need neither. For example, I can easily decide to eat potato chips while I fly. I don't need to measure anything, nor have any knowledge of aerodynamics to eat potato chips.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
27-02-2020 23:46
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13826)
IBdaMann wrote:
keepit wrote:
In general do you need measurements to make decisions or do you need scientific principles? For example, and this is for ITN, do you need precise measurements to fly the plane or do you need approximate measurements plus knowledge of aerodynamics to make decisions?


A tactical nighttime IFR landing anyone?

Hey Into the Night, would you be OK with a aircraft fuel gauge that told you you had, say an eighth of a tank more than you had?

Would you be OK with an ILS positioning that was only off by a couple of hundred meters?


.


Heh. Fuel gauges in aircraft are notoriously crappy. The are required by regulations to show 'empty' and 'full' accurately. That's it. I routinely fly ILS approaches with the crappy gauges. Pilots use time, with generous margins (such as having at last 45 minutes of fuel at the end of the IFR flight).

ILS accuracy isn't measured by lineal distance. It is measured by angle of deviation from the originating station, as indicated on your instrument. While far away from the station, it is easily possible to be a mile or two off course and still be within allowed tolerances of the instrument.

At the outer marker, you're allowed a tolerance of about a mile on either side of the localizer.
At the inner marker, you're allowed only a few hundred feet.

The glide slope signal is more critical. There are many echos of it. You must approach the outer marker below the lowest angle transmitted (typically about 3 deg azimuth) or you will be following one of the echos. Tolerance on this instrument is only about 1 deg azimuth.

ILS will typically get you safely to within 200 ft of altitude, reasonably set up for a short final approach and landing. At that point you MUST see the runway and land visually with very narrow exceptions (yes, I have landed in zero-zero before).

The altimeter is a better indication of height than any ILS system.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
27-02-2020 23:47
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13826)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:...an ILS positioning that was only off by a couple of hundred meters?
Oooh good question IBD.

ITN how accurate (I think that's the right word) would the ILS need to be for you to agree to fly the plane?


The ILS can be completely dead. I can still fly the plane.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
27-02-2020 23:51
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13826)
keepit wrote:
Night time instrument landings are easier than daytime because the lights go through the fog in the night but don't help much during the day.
...deleted Mantras 25g...25k...25k...22b...25g...32...


Lights aren't used in ILS. Lights are only used at night for both VFR and IFR.
You cannot land at a foggy airport, not even with ILS.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
27-02-2020 23:53
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13826)
IBdaMann wrote:
keepit wrote:Night time instrument landings are easier than daytime because the lights go through the fog in the night but don't help much during the day.


The person who reads your posts to you omitted the word "tactical." There are no lights in a tactical landing.

Have you ever been in a war zone?


.


Heh. Real fun. I've seen guys land aircraft by instruments using nothing but their radar and a couple of coffee cans set out on the end of the runway.

No lights at all, either on the plane or at the airport.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
27-02-2020 23:55
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13826)
keepit wrote:
The coronavirus situation in the us is a good example of being unable at this point to measure the prevalence of the virus. But we do have medical (scientific) principles to guide us. Epidemiologists have many of these. It's what they do.
So, do we do nothing because we can't measure or do we do something based on known scientific principles?
By the way, this is a good analogy to global warming mitigation.


There is no such thing as a 'scientific' principle. Science is a set of theories. They must be falsifiable. Define 'global warming'. What you trying to 'mitigate'?


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
27-02-2020 23:57
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13826)
tmiddles wrote:
...deleted Mantra 19...

No argument presented.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
28-02-2020 03:17
keepit
★★★★☆
(1757)
I used to walk to school 10 miles each way every day in the snow year round and it was uphill in both directions. It was even farther than 10 miles on the way back and by afternoon the snow was of even greater depth. And the temperature was at least 110 F. each day. The ILS never worked either. I liked those ILS's in my Piper Cub in those days. It kind of bothered me though when i augered in when ILS said i was on glideslope but i kept running into trees. That was when pilots were real pilots.
Edited on 28-02-2020 03:23
28-02-2020 04:21
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2713)
keepit wrote:
I used to walk to school 10 miles each way every day in the snow year round and it was uphill in both directions. It was even farther than 10 miles on the way back and by afternoon the snow was of even greater depth. And the temperature was at least 110 F. each day. The ILS never worked either. I liked those ILS's in my Piper Cub in those days. It kind of bothered me though when i augered in when ILS said i was on glideslope but i kept running into trees. That was when pilots were real pilots.


You should spend less... on self-medication.




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