Remember me
▼ Content

Etymology of Science



Page 2 of 2<12
07-02-2020 02:38
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3375)
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
...deleted Mantras 16...20... You can't have a hand of poker where everyone wins the jackpot either.

Yes you can.
A single hand of poker has at most one winner.
Edited on 07-02-2020 02:38
07-02-2020 04:33
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3375)
tmiddles wrote:...I plan to post a real argument...

OK so in a nutshell the argument is that 1st you must factor in that "Early in Earth's history, the Sun's output would have been only 70 percent as intense as it is during the modern epoch, owing to a higher ratio of hydrogen to helium in its core."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faint_young_Sun_paradox

This means that during the early parts of the graph the sun's output to us was 4% less.
" solar output was around 4% lower than current levels" So if CO2 is the main driver of global warming in the past the tipping point to glaciation is 500 ppm today but 480 million years ago it would have been 3000 ppm.

The other key point is there are multiple drivers of radiative forcing (a shift in equilibrium toward more thermal energy on Earth), CO2 being one. Aerosols (dust) from volcanic activity (we were thought to have been hit by an asteroid in there).

I would agree that the data does not show a correlation where CO2 is causing warming. The rebuttal on skepticalscience seems to be just that sky high CO2 not causing crazy warming hundreds of millions of years ago is explained by the lower output from the sun.
Edited on 07-02-2020 04:38
07-02-2020 08:24
James___
★★★★★
(3170)
tmiddles wrote:
tmiddles wrote:...I plan to post a real argument...

OK so in a nutshell the argument is that 1st you must factor in that "Early in Earth's history, the Sun's output would have been only 70 percent as intense as it is during the modern epoch, owing to a higher ratio of hydrogen to helium in its core."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faint_young_Sun_paradox

This means that during the early parts of the graph the sun's output to us was 4% less.
" solar output was around 4% lower than current levels" So if CO2 is the main driver of global warming in the past the tipping point to glaciation is 500 ppm today but 480 million years ago it would have been 3000 ppm.

The other key point is there are multiple drivers of radiative forcing (a shift in equilibrium toward more thermal energy on Earth), CO2 being one. Aerosols (dust) from volcanic activity (we were thought to have been hit by an asteroid in there).

I would agree that the data does not show a correlation where CO2 is causing warming. The rebuttal on skepticalscience seems to be just that sky high CO2 not causing crazy warming hundreds of millions of years ago is explained by the lower output from the sun.



The Van Allen radiation belts were probably weaker. As a result they let more solar radiation in. The Earth's magnetic field is probably stronger today.
That would resolve the problem. As the Sun grows, it's gravitational field influences the Earth's own gravitational field more. Gravity in a field is inversely proportional, right?
07-02-2020 18:38
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7464)
tmiddles wrote: I would agree that the data does not show a correlation where CO2 is causing warming.

Are you saying that there is a valid dataset that does not show such a correlation or are you saying that there is no valid dataset in the first place.

tmiddles wrote: The rebuttal on skepticalscience seems to be just that sky high CO2 not causing crazy warming hundreds of millions of years ago is explained by the lower output from the sun.

Could you humor me and explain how anyone can make any sort of claim about the sun's output say, one million years ago, one billion years ago, etc...?

Are we operating under the same assumptions that the sun formed as a (very very large) cloud of hydrogen coming together under the force of gravity, with such a quantity of mass creating intense pressure as to commence nuclear fusion of hydrogen to helium?

Are we operating under the same assumptions that the sun's solar output is directly dependent upon its temperature which is directly dependent upon the nuclear fusion that is occurring?


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
07-02-2020 20:27
spot
★★★★☆
(1323)
Perhaps he has read a book about astronomy
07-02-2020 20:34
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13293)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
...deleted Mantras 16...20... You can't have a hand of poker where everyone wins the jackpot either.

Yes you can.
A single hand of poker has at most one winner.

WRONG. A single hand can have one, two, three, or even all the players on a table win a pot.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
07-02-2020 20:41
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13293)
tmiddles wrote:
...deleted Mantras 18...21...25...31...25...22...denial of 1st LoT...denial of 2nd Lot...25...25...22...22...33...33...25...4...21...25...

No argument presented.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
07-02-2020 20:43
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13293)
James___ wrote:
...deleted Mantras 22...21...31...25...22...20...

No argument presented.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
07-02-2020 21:01
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7464)
Into the Night wrote:WRONG. A single hand can have one, two, three, or even all the players on a table win a pot.

Can a single hand have five winners?

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
07-02-2020 21:13
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13293)
IBdaMann wrote:
Into the Night wrote:WRONG. A single hand can have one, two, three, or even all the players on a table win a pot.

Can a single hand have five winners?

.

Yes (assuming there are at least five players).

Example:

In Texas Holdem, hands are:
As Tc,
Kc Qc,
7d 6c,
Qd 7c,
Kd 2h;
and the flop is Qh Th 8h 5h 4h.

The best hand is a queen high heart flush. All five players win the pot. They all have the same hand. No player has a heart that changes the ranking of the heart flush that is on the board. The 5th player's 2h does not outrank any card on the board. The best five cards out of the seven (the board plus a player's two hole cards) are used.

It may even be a sizable pot. The players holding queens will be betting and the other hands have sufficient to call, especially in a low limit game. The guy with the straight (7d 6c) might even try to raise.

I have even seen hands like this even in no limit games, and everyone went all in.

It is a fairly common occurrence in tourney games, when blinds are high.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Edited on 07-02-2020 21:30
07-02-2020 23:26
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3375)
IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote: I would agree that the data does not show a correlation where CO2 is causing warming.

Are you saying that there is a valid dataset that does not show such a correlation or are you saying that there is no valid dataset in the first place.
Accepting the data as valid as a stipulation to analyze the argument as presented, I see no clear correlation. My understanding of the argument against this is not that there IS a good correlation, only that the major problem (sky high CO2 with relatively low temps 500 million years ago) is explained away.
I did not get into discussing the reliability of the data at all. This was a "By their own argument they are saying this...does it add up".
That clear?

IBdaMann wrote:
Could you humor me and explain how anyone can make any sort of claim about the sun's output
I am relying on the links I shared but the theory is based on what we think the composition of the sun is and I believe it's the same premise that leads to the conclusion the sun will "7.5 billion years in the future...engulf, and destroy, the Earth."
However I consider really digging into either topic, the reliability of our knowledge of what the sun is doing, or the reliability of past temperature projections, to be lower on the priority list for this topic.

My warmazombie friends and I have to work up a plan to pin the swallowing of Earth by the sun on republicans, but we have like 3-4 billion years to work that up.

Into the Night wrote:They all have the same hand.
Ah then it was a bad example on my part.

Though it is worth pointing out in your example that no one makes any money correct? They're just getting their own money back right?
07-02-2020 23:45
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13293)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
[quote]tmiddles wrote: I would agree that the data does not show a correlation where CO2 is causing warming.

...deleted Mantras 25...4...31...34...
IBdaMann wrote:
Could you humor me and explain how anyone can make any sort of claim about the sun's output

...deleted Mantras 4...33...prophecy...31...34...
Into the Night wrote:They all have the same hand.
Ah then it was a bad example on my part.

You didn't provide an example. You just made a blanket statement. Mantra 31.
tmiddles wrote:
Though it is worth pointing out in your example that no one makes any money correct? They're just getting their own money back right?

In that example, yes. Everyone gets their money back. Why is that worth pointing out?


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
08-02-2020 01:22
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3375)
Into the Night wrote:
Why is that worth pointing out?
I'd argue the exchange of thermal energy is to heat
As
The exchange of money is to profit in a zero sum game.

There can be no change: equilibrium or you get out of the pot what you put in.
A loss: heat flowing away, your money decreases
A gain: heat flowing in, more money

But poker's a bad model so I'm dropping it.
08-02-2020 02:54
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7464)
tmiddles wrote:This was a "By their own argument they are saying this...does it add up". That clear?

Well, OK then.

tmiddles wrote: ... the theory is based on what we think the composition of the sun is and I believe it's the same premise that leads to the conclusion the sun will 7.5 billion years in the future...engulf, and destroy, the Earth.

That's fine; I have no objection to which theory you believe. I just wanted to specify what your particular basis was.

tmiddles wrote: My warmazombie friends and I have to work up a plan to pin the swallowing of Earth by the sun on republicans, but we have like 3-4 billion years to work that up.

Well OK then. That gives Donald Trump roughly a billion more terms as President for you to impeach him again ... and gives Schiff ample time to practice a bit.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
08-02-2020 04:02
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3375)
IBdaMann wrote:...a billion more terms...
That would be the worst twilight zone ever.
08-02-2020 07:02
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7464)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:...a billion more terms...
That would be the worst twilight zone ever.

You got that right. I'd shiver to think what Schiff can pull out of his arse given enough time.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
08-02-2020 07:32
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3375)
IBdaMann wrote:I'd shiver to think what Schiff can pull out of his arse given enough time.
He'll probably use more magic to make Trump call Putin and ask for a loan from the oval office.
08-02-2020 07:33
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13293)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Why is that worth pointing out?
...deleted false equivalence...Mantras 15...
The exchange of money is to profit in a zero sum game.
...deleted Mantras 15...15...10 (game<->model)...


Poker is not a zero sum game.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
08-02-2020 08:54
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7464)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:I'd shiver to think what Schiff can pull out of his arse given enough time.
He'll probably use more magic to make Trump call Putin and ask for a loan from the oval office.

Will Trump get to sign the paperwork with a Pelosi Impeachment pen?


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
08-02-2020 12:09
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3375)
Into the Night wrote:
Poker is not a zero sum game.


"Poker and gambling are popular examples of zero-sum games since the sum of the amounts won by some players equals the combined losses of the others."
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/z/zero-sumgame.asp

You have a different definition of zero sum game?
Page 2 of 2<12





Join the debate Etymology of Science:

Remember me

Related content
ThreadsRepliesLast post
The Ultimate Secret Of Language, Number, Religion, Education, Science, Technology126-08-2020 08:58
There is still no Global Warming science.34122-07-2020 19:51
Western Science - is it declining?1124-12-2019 12:43
About the damage that Obama did to science.18417-12-2019 05:36
Argument against AGW science314-08-2019 20:51
▲ Top of page
Public Poll
Who is leading the renewable energy race?

US

EU

China

Japan

India

Brazil

Other

Don't know


Thanks for supporting Climate-Debate.com.
Copyright © 2009-2020 Climate-Debate.com | About | Contact