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Wind, solar, storage and back-up system designer


Wind, solar, storage and back-up system designer03-07-2019 15:23
Scottish Scientist
☆☆☆☆☆
(13)
Wind, solar, storage and back-up system designer for 100% renewable energy grids and microgrids with 24/7/52 power-on-demand!
http://scottish.scienceontheweb.net/Wind%20power%20storage%20back-up%20calculator.htm

Replies, comments and questions about using the Wind, solar, storage and back-up system designer at this blog link please.
https://scottishscientist.wordpress.com/2017/07/14/wind-storage-and-back-up-system-designer

Peak demand, wind, solar and back-up power / energy usage and storage capacity calculator

For the specification and design of renewable energy electricity generation systems which successfully smooth intermittent wind and solar generation to serve customer demand, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and 52 weeks a year.

Adopting the recommendation derived from scientific computer modelling, the tables offer rows of previously successful modelled system configurations – row A, a configuration with no back-up power and rows B to H offering alternative ratios of wind and solar power to back-up power.

The recommended energy storage capacity is about 90% of one day's average wind and solar energy generation.

The tables' columns consist of power and energy variables.

A cell value can be adjusted according to the design criteria and then all the other table values will be recalculated, spreadsheet-style.

The wind and solar power generation Capacity Factor (C.F.) percentages can be adjusted too.

The energy generation percentages from wind and solar power can be adjusted, either directly or according to the latitude of the system.

A configuration text page for a row which has been adjusted and designed satisfactorily can be opened for text output by clicking on the row's "TXT" icon in the "Open text page" column.

The recommendations derived from modelling are only specified to 2 significant figures so take with a pinch of salt any apparently third "significant" figures in the numbers output in the configuration text pages.

My 100% Renewable Energy Blog
https://scottishscientist.wordpress.com/
* Wind, solar, storage and back-up system designer
* Double Tidal Lagoon Baseload Scheme
* Off-Shore Electricity from Wind, Solar and Hydrogen Power
* World's biggest-ever pumped-storage hydro-scheme, for Scotland?
* Search for sites to build new pumped-storage hydroelectricity schemes
* Glasa Morie Glass Pumped-Storage Hydro Scheme
* Let's supersize × 1000 the tiny Glasa hydro scheme!
* Modelling of wind and pumped-storage power
* Scotland Electricity Generation – my plan for 2020
* South America – GREAT for Renewable Energy



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Edited on 03-07-2019 15:24
03-07-2019 20:57
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1362)
I haven't gone to the site yet, need to make sure I have plenty of time to learn some things. Will the calculator tell you how many acres of land are required, to produce enough power for the average sized home? Are typical solar panels able to stand up to hurricane force winds, or would they shatter, when one of the neighbor's lawn chairs flies over the fence at 70+ MPH? I'm not sure wind power would be a good choice here in Florida, do se many wind turbines, so guess most people agree. We don't get constant wind, light breeze, when lucky, but storms bring some very strong gusts, and the yearly hurricanes, even if we aren't in the path, are still pretty strong.
03-07-2019 22:28
Scottish Scientist
☆☆☆☆☆
(13)
HarveyH55 wrote:
I haven't gone to the site yet, need to make sure I have plenty of time to learn some things. Will the calculator tell you how many acres of land are required, to produce enough power for the average sized home?

No, the calculator only handles power and energy values, never "acres".

Neither does the calculator bullshit anyone by advising them to be content with only enough power and energy for the "average sized home", which would risk poor system design leaving homes without renewable energy and power at times and in case of off-grid systems having to burn fossil fuels for power and heat as before.

So for example, the Off-grid daily usage Focus Table at this link

http://scottish.scienceontheweb.net/Wind%20power%20storage%20back-up%20calculator.htm#off

the designer types in the maximum daily usage of electrical energy, which you need to work out for yourself.

HarveyH55 wrote:
Are typical solar panels able to stand up to hurricane force winds, or would they shatter, when one of the neighbor's lawn chairs flies over the fence at 70+ MPH?

I'm not sure Harvey. Something to ask the solar panel dealer but I'm going to go with "shatter". If that's a big risk then you may want to think of some kind of hurricane propelled projectile defence cover to put over solar panels. Maybe some kind of wire or net cage that would protect against most impacts but still allow the panels to work without worrying about the wind. You don't tend to see cages etc over solar panels so I presume that most people just take the risk, get insurance and just replace any broken panels?

HarveyH55 wrote:
I'm not sure wind power would be a good choice here in Florida, do se many wind turbines, so guess most people agree. We don't get constant wind, light breeze, when lucky, but storms bring some very strong gusts, and the yearly hurricanes, even if we aren't in the path, are still pretty strong.

Check this out for wind power in Florida.
http://www.sewind.org/images/fact_sheets/SEWC%20FL%20Wind%20Energy%20Fact%20Sheet%20-%20Dec%202014.pdf
Edited on 03-07-2019 22:54
04-07-2019 01:54
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4926)
Scottish Scientist wrote:
Wind, solar, storage and back-up system designer for 100% renewable energy grids and microgrids with 24/7/52 power-on-demand!

I notice you insert the word "Scientist" into your name, i.e."Scottish Scientist."

Do you believe in Global Warming? Do you believe in "Greenhouse Effect"?


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
04-07-2019 04:55
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1362)
IBdaMann wrote:
Scottish Scientist wrote:
Wind, solar, storage and back-up system designer for 100% renewable energy grids and microgrids with 24/7/52 power-on-demand!

I notice you insert the word "Scientist" into your name, i.e."Scottish Scientist."

Do you believe in Global Warming? Do you believe in "Greenhouse Effect"?


Global warming might be a selling point, but many people don't like not having any option, and little control of their energy supply. I don't like having to pay for electricity, and have no say in the price, price increases. You pretty much just have one company to deal with, and have to pay their price, or do without.

I'll probably grab my electric bill this weekend, and try out the calculator, just to get a rough idea if it's feasible, and how much space the panels will take up. Pretty sure I'd be looking at quite a few panels, and one only 2 city lots of space. It would be cool if they could integrate solar panels with roofing material, but not yet. Can't fix your roof, without ripping up your panels. I don't think roof mounted panels would provide enough electricity, not sure how much yard I want to dedicate. Even then, I'm sure I'd need to look into more efficient appliances and air conditioning. That's all going to add up to considerable cost, and wonder how many years it would take, of not having a monthly electric bill, to pay fo it all. My experiments with solar, didn't look promising, only wanted enough to run a coffee maker, if a storm knocked out power for a few days. Didn't come close, but fortunately, never had to go more than 6 hours after a big storm passed, without power.

Whether or not, you are a true believer in Global Warming, energy costs are on the rise, at an alarming rate. It's a good time to look into alternatives and independence, before the demand drives those prices up as well.
04-07-2019 09:40
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9597)
HarveyH55 wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
Scottish Scientist wrote:
Wind, solar, storage and back-up system designer for 100% renewable energy grids and microgrids with 24/7/52 power-on-demand!

I notice you insert the word "Scientist" into your name, i.e."Scottish Scientist."

Do you believe in Global Warming? Do you believe in "Greenhouse Effect"?


Global warming might be a selling point, but many people don't like not having any option, and little control of their energy supply. I don't like having to pay for electricity, and have no say in the price, price increases. You pretty much just have one company to deal with, and have to pay their price, or do without.

I'll probably grab my electric bill this weekend, and try out the calculator, just to get a rough idea if it's feasible, and how much space the panels will take up. Pretty sure I'd be looking at quite a few panels, and one only 2 city lots of space. It would be cool if they could integrate solar panels with roofing material, but not yet. Can't fix your roof, without ripping up your panels. I don't think roof mounted panels would provide enough electricity, not sure how much yard I want to dedicate. Even then, I'm sure I'd need to look into more efficient appliances and air conditioning. That's all going to add up to considerable cost, and wonder how many years it would take, of not having a monthly electric bill, to pay fo it all. My experiments with solar, didn't look promising, only wanted enough to run a coffee maker, if a storm knocked out power for a few days. Didn't come close, but fortunately, never had to go more than 6 hours after a big storm passed, without power.

Whether or not, you are a true believer in Global Warming, energy costs are on the rise, at an alarming rate. It's a good time to look into alternatives and independence, before the demand drives those prices up as well.


Are energy costs on the rise, or is the dollar falling?

What are you using for your electricity source?


The Parrot Killer
04-07-2019 13:11
Scottish Scientist
☆☆☆☆☆
(13)
IBdaMann wrote:
Scottish Scientist wrote:
Wind, solar, storage and back-up system designer for 100% renewable energy grids and microgrids with 24/7/52 power-on-demand!

I notice you insert the word "Scientist" into your name, i.e."Scottish Scientist."

Do you believe in Global Warming? Do you believe in "Greenhouse Effect"?

I'm going to stay on-topic for my post and the Technology forum and not stray into debating climate issues, if that's OK.
04-07-2019 13:34
Scottish Scientist
☆☆☆☆☆
(13)
HarveyH55 wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
Scottish Scientist wrote:
Wind, solar, storage and back-up system designer for 100% renewable energy grids and microgrids with 24/7/52 power-on-demand!

I notice you insert the word "Scientist" into your name, i.e."Scottish Scientist."

Do you believe in Global Warming? Do you believe in "Greenhouse Effect"?


Global warming might be a selling point, but many people don't like not having any option, and little control of their energy supply. I don't like having to pay for electricity, and have no say in the price, price increases. You pretty much just have one company to deal with, and have to pay their price, or do without.

I'll probably grab my electric bill this weekend, and try out the calculator, just to get a rough idea if it's feasible, and how much space the panels will take up. Pretty sure I'd be looking at quite a few panels, and one only 2 city lots of space. It would be cool if they could integrate solar panels with roofing material, but not yet. Can't fix your roof, without ripping up your panels. I don't think roof mounted panels would provide enough electricity, not sure how much yard I want to dedicate. Even then, I'm sure I'd need to look into more efficient appliances and air conditioning. That's all going to add up to considerable cost, and wonder how many years it would take, of not having a monthly electric bill, to pay fo it all. My experiments with solar, didn't look promising, only wanted enough to run a coffee maker, if a storm knocked out power for a few days. Didn't come close, but fortunately, never had to go more than 6 hours after a big storm passed, without power.

Whether or not, you are a true believer in Global Warming, energy costs are on the rise, at an alarming rate. It's a good time to look into alternatives and independence, before the demand drives those prices up as well.

Unfortunately, my system designer can't help with providing space that city dwellers can't all enjoy to go off-grid.

The grid however is ideal for bringing renewable energy electricity into the city from outside where there is the space.

I live in an inner-city location where it is not practical to go off-grid.

City dwellers who live in the affluent suburbs in bungalows with big gardens could look at installing some solar panels, that will provide some power (sunshine permitting) and do no harm even if they don't provide enough power to go completely off-grid.
Edited on 04-07-2019 13:43
04-07-2019 16:08
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4926)
Scottish Scientist wrote:I'm going to stay on-topic for my post and the Technology forum and not stray into debating climate issues, if that's OK.

You're trying to sell me on an idea. I'm sure I'm not the only one who wonders if you are honest.

You are being evasive with the easiest, most straightforward of questions. I can only imagine what you are hiding about your "energy solutions."

So now that we have established that you are being dishonest, sure, let's talk about your "ideas."

What is the cost to install?


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
04-07-2019 16:29
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4926)
HarveyH55 wrote:Global warming might be a selling point, but many people don't like not having any option, and little control of their energy supply.


HarveyH55 wrote: I don't like having to pay for electricity, and have no say in the price, price increases. You pretty much just have one company to deal with, and have to pay their price, or do without.

Harvey, I completely agree with your sentiment. You and I are on the same page, same measure, same note.

I have lived where people had the option of setting up a turbine and selling back to the power company all the extra energy generated but not used, i.e. a monthly electric paycheck instead of a monthly bill.

The problem with what Scottish Scientifically Illiterate is doing is he is attaching that dream of individual energy independence to a faulty product. He is a huckster.

I wouldn't trust that calculator, for one thing. I also wouldn't trust any price/cost estimates. You have to ask yourself "What product requires dishonesty to sell?" Used cars? Miracle Elixir? Reverse mortgages? Sham-Wow?

If this energy solution appeals to you, look for a reputable seller.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
04-07-2019 17:08
Scottish Scientist
☆☆☆☆☆
(13)
I am not going to respond to the troll who lives under this particular bridge.

My calculator is for free, it is a webpage that anyone can access and I am providing it for free to everyone from a sense of my scientific duty to humanity, not for money for personal gain and so I find it very offensive when my motives and honesty are being impugned by the local troll.
Edited on 04-07-2019 17:18
04-07-2019 17:27
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4926)
Scottish Scientist wrote:
I am not going to respond to the troll who lives under this particular bridge.

Just as I thought.

Now everyone can see you for what you are, a scientifically illiterate dishonest warmizombie pitching to the gullible in the hopes of reaming them until they hand over cash.

I think I'll look into this a little more and see what kind of snakes are really under this rock.

I'm going to hold you to your promise of not responding to me; it'll cut down on your irritating whiney dishonesty. Thank you in advance.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
04-07-2019 17:46
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4926)
Scottish Scientist wrote:My calculator is for free,

... because that is what it is worth.


Scottish Scientist wrote:I am providing it for free to everyone from a sense of my scientific duty to humanity,

"scientific duty"? ... to humanity? Please allow me to apologize for having ever doubted you. How can I help you save the planet? Can I just write you a check right now?

Scottish Scientist wrote:not for money for personal gain and so I find it very offensive when my motives and honesty are being impugned by the local troll.

Oooohhh, excellent feigned indignance! I bet that works well for you with your target audience. I bet they are immediately inclined to send you checks. Rock on.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
04-07-2019 19:24
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1362)
There are a lot of free calculators online for many things, don't remember any I've used estimating cost, or generating a bill of materials, labor costs. Then again, I probably would pay much attention if they did. Material prices change frequently, as do parts and labor, also depends on location. Although, I've never paid for a permit for any of the work I've done, I did get into a little hassle with the city once, and had to go before the Code Enforcement Board over my fence. When I first bought my house, the fence was sort of a patchwork mess, right on the property line, so not entirely sure if it was mine, or the neighbor's. The neighbor, is a set of 7 apartments, and some of the renters would climb over, walk down my driveway to the sidewalk. I replaced that whole side with 6 foot basic wood privacy fence. Guess somebody complained, but fortunately, the board agreed that since there already was a fence, there must have been a permit, and my work was more like a repair. They don't expect everyone to apply for new permits, after a hurricane.

Basically, online calculators are great for figuring out roughly what you need, maybe spot a few details you might have not known about. Sort help you put together a shopping list.

I've been interest in solar for a long while, since moving to Florida. We get at least half a day full sun, pretty much 365 a year. Hurricanes are pretty much they only storms that block the sun for a day or two at a time. I don't think powering the whole house from solar panels will work out well, large appliances draw too much. Air conditioning and a refrigerator are must have. It's still not bad planning, if this green thing gets too far, like California...
04-07-2019 20:20
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4926)
HarveyH55 wrote:I've been interest in solar for a long while, since moving to Florida. We get at least half a day full sun, pretty much 365 a year. Hurricanes are pretty much they only storms that block the sun for a day or two at a time. I don't think powering the whole house from solar panels will work out well, large appliances draw too much. Air conditioning and a refrigerator are must have. It's still not bad planning, if this green thing gets too far, like California...

Sure. The first thing to do is a break-even analysis, i.e. how long would it take to generate as many dollars of electrical savings as you would earn over the same amount of time pumping all of the system cost into a low-yield investment, e.g. 4%.

For example, you would need to generate savings of about $148 per month to break even at 15 years with a $20,000 system if you could otherwise guarantee 4% APR on your investment elsewhere. If you honestly believe you could invest that money for a higher return, say 7%, then you would either need to generate $180 in savings per month to break even in 15 years or you would require about 22 years to break even if you are saving $148 per month.

Have you compared system prices vs. savings generation?


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
05-07-2019 00:57
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1362)
IBdaMann wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:I've been interest in solar for a long while, since moving to Florida. We get at least half a day full sun, pretty much 365 a year. Hurricanes are pretty much they only storms that block the sun for a day or two at a time. I don't think powering the whole house from solar panels will work out well, large appliances draw too much. Air conditioning and a refrigerator are must have. It's still not bad planning, if this green thing gets too far, like California...

Sure. The first thing to do is a break-even analysis, i.e. how long would it take to generate as many dollars of electrical savings as you would earn over the same amount of time pumping all of the system cost into a low-yield investment, e.g. 4%.

For example, you would need to generate savings of about $148 per month to break even at 15 years with a $20,000 system if you could otherwise guarantee 4% APR on your investment elsewhere. If you honestly believe you could invest that money for a higher return, say 7%, then you would either need to generate $180 in savings per month to break even in 15 years or you would require about 22 years to break even if you are saving $148 per month.

Have you compared system prices vs. savings generation?


This is kind of why I like the idea of playing with the calculator some, and want to make sure I have plenty of time to explore. If you went with the suggested $20k system, where you hire someone to do the install, with parts and materials of their choosing, that's what you get, and the output will likely be considerably less than expected. I'm more for doing it myself, shopping around for best prices, quality, and doing much of the labor myself. You really can only get a rough estimate on power output (sun has to be shining, after all. Battery banks have a rather limited lifespan, and will be expected to be replaced a few times over the 20 years. A solar panel lasting 20 years is a little ambitious as well, some won't last more than a few years, nothing's perfect. Even paying the $20k up front, you would still need to expect to pay thousands more over the 20 years. Unless you go with active panels (track the sun), you won't get maximum output from the panels, sun's angle changes throughout the day. Length of daylight hours change throughout the year, as well as the suns position. You'll only come close to the ideal, for a few months each year, unless you can track, or manually adjust the panels. The other option, is to install double or triple the panels required to meet your daily needs.

Going completely off-grid, doesn't make good financial sense for me, don't have the room in my yard for all those panels. To get best use out of less panels, I'd be looking a greater expense, higher maintenance. But what I can do, is harvest enough sun energy to get by on minimal usage, if it comes to that, and reduce my grid dependency as needed. I have no expectations of never needing grid power, but I do expect rates to keep going up, as the Green people shove that agenda at us. It's a good excuse for power companies to raise rates, and people to grudgingly pay them, since there aren't any competitive choices. It's not like changing cell phone, or cable TV providers, you are stuck with it, or do without. Never heard of rates being reduced, only going higher. Lower production costs, just mean more profits.

Mostly, I'm looking for a backup plan, so I can at least have some electricity to work with, regardless of what's going on with the grid. I don't believe a 'green' electrical system can keep up with demand, already strains during peak usage in some places get blackout during heat waves. Haven't had those around here, but large cities seem to have those problems occasionally, some every year. Of course, the Green Party, will push for people to at least give try.
05-07-2019 05:18
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4926)
HarveyH55 wrote:This is kind of why I like the idea of playing with the calculator some, and want to make sure I have plenty of time to explore.

I merely submit that you avoid sources, such as the calculators in this case, in which there is reason to suspect dishonesty. You might be giving yourself a mistaken impression that you think is a "rough estimate."


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist




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