What if everything alarmist say is true.

Jethro Bodine wrote:
...; what if everything you believe is true. Then what? ...

Jethro Bodine wrote:I'm a skeptic of catastrophic global warming.

Jethro Bodine wrote:I'm not sure what vanilla global warming is.

Jethro Bodine wrote:New to this site. Is there a way to post this graph so it shows up, rather than a link to it? I tried using the image feature and it didn't work.

Jethro Bodine wrote:You didn't explain what you meant by vanilla warming

Jethro Bodine wrote:OK. I guess one of the images appeared.

Jethro Bodine wrote: I believe the planet is warming slightly.

Jethro Bodine wrote: I suspect the planet warms coming out of an ice age and it cools as it descends into an ice age.

Jethro Bodine wrote: The current warming seems to be within natural variability, and it does not seem to be global.

Jethro Bodine wrote:
My turn to quiz you: Approximately what is the temperature of the visible surface of the sun, in Kelvins?

Third world guy wrote:
Jethro:

Please do not let the moron named IBDaMan (or his clone Into the Night) make you leave the forum. Me and many others think just like you.

Third world guy wrote:
This guy is annoying everyone

Third world guy wrote:
and destroys all the threads.

Third world guy wrote:
He doesn't allow anyone to expose their ideas.

Third world guy wrote:
Since I look at this forum, dozens of people come in, and get disappointed and leave it.

Third world guy wrote:
It seems that this is the goal of IBDaMan.

Third world guy wrote:
I am reading you with interest, but please do not get involved in defending yourself against a troll. Keep contributing.

Third world guy wrote: . He doesn't allow anyone to expose their ideas.

How did you arrive at the conclusion that there is current warming?

Jethro Bodine wrote: How do you know who has or hasn't presented me with science showing a slight warming of the planet?

Jethro Bodine wrote: I am not a climate scientist, are you?

Jethro Bodine wrote: Judith Curry is one and she can explain why she feels there is some warming going on. Freeman Dyson is one of the smartest humans on our planet as well as a brilliant scientist who has studied climate change since the 1970's.

Jethro Bodine wrote: He states the science shows some warming, but not global, and some sea level rise.

Jethro Bodine wrote: Here are some quotes from skeptical climate scientists who seem to accept there is some warming,

Jethro Bodine wrote: Are you suggesting they are wrong?

Jethro Bodine wrote: Do you believe we are in an interglacial period of warming?

Jethro Bodine wrote: There are alarmist scientists and there are scientists skeptical of alarm.

Jethro Bodine wrote:I have read research from both sides

Jethro Bodine wrote: and put my trust in the skeptical scientists who say there is some warming going on.

Jethro Bodine wrote: If you believe there is no warming going on, how did you come to that conclusion?

Jethro Bodine wrote:My quiz was not a trick question. The sun does have a visible surface.

Jethro Bodine wrote: I'm new here. As a skeptic of AGW or CAGW, I have been banned from sites moderated mostly be alarmists.

Jethro Bodine wrote: You seem to be one of 5 or 6 people who have much interest.

Jethro Bodine wrote: If you were to visit WUWT.com you'd see they have over 417 million hits.

Jethro Bodine wrote: Name a few climate scientists that you trust.

Jethro Bodine wrote: I'm curious why this site shows up on a search when it appears to be viewed and used by so few people.

HarveyH55 wrote:
Nothing lasts forever, it's a dynamic world we live on. Nothing lives forever either, everything will one day die.

Third world guy wrote:
Jethro:

Please do not let the moron named IBDaMan (or his clone Into the Night) make you leave the forum. Me and many others think just like you.

Third world guy wrote:
This guy is annoying everyone and destroys all the threads. He doesn't allow anyone to expose their ideas.

Third world guy wrote:
Since I look at this forum, dozens of people come in, and get disappointed and leave it. It seems that this is the goal of IBDaMan.

Third world guy wrote:
I am reading you with interest, but please do not get involved in defending yourself against a troll. Keep contributing.

Jethro Bodine wrote:
I'm not a mind reader. I was not able to know that vanilla warming means do I believe in the greenhouse effect.

How do you know who has or hasn't presented me with science showing a slight warming of the planet? I am not a climate scientist, are you? Judith Curry is one and she can explain why she feels there is some warming going on. Freeman Dyson is one of the smartest humans on our planet as well as a brilliant scientist who has studied climate change since the 1970's. He states the science shows some warming, but not global, and some sea level rise.

Here are some quotes from skeptical climate scientists who seem to accept there is some warming, but it is not catastrophic. Are you suggesting they are wrong?

"I'm sure the majority (but not all) of my IPCC colleagues cringe when I say this, but I see neither the developing catastrophe nor the smoking gun proving that human activity is to blame for most of the warming we see." - John R. Christy

"A number of studies point to sources other than greenhouse gases as explanations for the modest warming trend of the late 20th century." - Patrick J. Michaels

"Given that the evidence strongly implies that anthropogenic warming has been greatly exaggerated, the basis for alarm due to such warming is similarly diminished." - Richard S. Lindzen

"As a climate researcher, I am increasingly convinced that most of our recent global warming has been natural, not manmade." - Roy W. Spencer

"We see no evidence in the climate record that the increase in CO2, which is real, has any appreciable effect on the global temperature." - S. Fred Singer

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Right now, we are in an interglacial period. An interglacial period is a geological interval of warmer global average temperature lasting thousands of years that separates consecutive glacial periods within an ice age.

Do you believe we are in an interglacial period of warming?

How did you arrive at the conclusion that there is current warming?

There are alarmist scientists and there are scientists skeptical of alarm. I have read research from both sides and put my trust in the skeptical scientists who say there is some warming going on. If you believe there is no warming going on, how did you come to that conclusion?

My quiz was not a trick question. The sun does have a visible surface. The photosphere's average temperature is 5800kelvin. Part 2 of the quiz is; as you travel away from the visible surface of the sun (photosphere) to the corona, does the temperature fall in accordance to the second law of thermodynamics?

I'm new here. As a skeptic of AGW or CAGW, I have been banned from sites moderated mostly be alarmists. I'm testing the waters here. It seems like a very small group of people discussing this topic. You seem to be one of 5 or 6 people who have much interest. If you were to visit WUWT.com you'd see they have over 417 million hits. There are dozens of sites that are popular for people interested in this topic. Social media sites like this one can attract people with some knowledge or no knowledge of the subject. It can also attract people who are certain they alone know the whole truth, yet they chose to set up shop at this site rather than a site full of well educated people who do actual climate research. You get my point. Social media is often a cesspool of angry people venting on others they determine are their enemies. I'm guessing you fall into a category of people who want to display erudition. You are a skeptic of the alarmist views. So am I. But you also rely on information you have read some place to help you form your opinions. Where do you turn for reliable climate information? Name a few climate scientists that you trust.

After my last comment, I now have 5 total comments, making me the 199th ranked person posting comments here. I'm curious why this site shows up on a search when it appears to be viewed and used by so few people.

IBdaMann wrote:

Jethro Bodine wrote: How do you know who has or hasn't presented me with science showing a slight warming of the planet?

Because there isn't any.
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Suppose I say there is. Who is right? It's customary for those making such claims as yours to provide evidence to support those claims. People on the internet don't always tell the truth. Include links as well.
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Jethro Bodine wrote: I am not a climate scientist, are you?

There is no branch of science "climate science."
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Are you a climatologist? Are you a scientist? What degrees do you hold? Does your resume look anything like this;

"Given that the evidence strongly implies that anthropogenic warming has been greatly exaggerated, the basis for alarm due to such warming is similarly diminished." - Richard S. Lindzen

Richard S. Lindzen, A.B. Physics Magna Cum Laude, Harvard University (1960), S.M. Applied Mathematics, Harvard University (1961), Ph.D. Applied Mathematics, Harvard University (1964), Research Associate in Meteorology, University of Washington (1964-1965), NATO Post-Doctoral Fellow at the Institute for Theoretical Meteorology, University of Oslo (1965-1966), Research Scientist, National Center for Atmospheric Research (1966-1967), Visiting Lecturer in Meteorology, UCLA (1967), NCAR Outstanding Publication Award (1967), AMS Meisinger Award (1968), Associate Professor and Professor of Meteorology, University of Chicago (1968-1972), Summer Lecturer, NCAR Colloquium (1968, 1972, 1978), AGU Macelwane Award (1969), Visiting Professor, Department of Environmental Sciences, Tel Aviv University (1969), Alfred P. Sloan Fellowship (1970-1976), Gordon McKay Professor of Dynamic Meteorology, Harvard University (1972-1983), Visiting Professor of Dynamic Meteorology, Massachusetts Institute of Technology (1975), Lady Davis Visiting Professor, Department of Meteorology, The Hebrew University (1979), Director, Center for Earth and Planetary Physics, Harvard University (1980-1983), Robert P. Burden Professor of Dynamical Meteorology, Harvard University (1982-1983), AMS Charney Award (1985), Vikram Amblal Sarabhai Professor, Physical Research Laboratory, Ahmedabad, India (1985), Japanese Society for the Promotion of Science Fellowship (1986-1987), Distinguished Visiting Scientist, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, NASA (1988-Present), Sackler Visiting Professor, Tel Aviv University (1992), Landsdowne Lecturer, University of Victoria (1993), Bernhard Haurwitz Memorial Lecturer, American Meteorological Society (1997), Fellow, American Academy of Arts & Sciences; Fellow, American Association for the Advancement of Science; Fellow, American Geophysical Union; Fellow, American Meteorological Society; Member, Norwegian Academy of Science and Letters; Member, Sigma Xi, The Scientific Research Society; Member, National Academy of Sciences; ISI Highly Cited Researcher; Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Meteorology, Department of Earth, Atmospheric and Planetary Sciences, Massachusetts Institute of Technology (1983-Present), Lead Author, IPCC (2001)
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Jethro Bodine wrote: Judith Curry is one and she can explain why she feels there is some warming going on. Freeman Dyson is one of the smartest humans on our planet as well as a brilliant scientist who has studied climate change since the 1970's.

... but you have never heard either of them being cross-examined by someone like me. If you will bring either of them to this site to participate in discussion here I'll be happy to pick them apart for you.
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Have you worked alongside Edward Teller, or given a a lifetime appointment at the Institute for Advanced Study by Robert Oppenheimer? Did you ever work on climate studies conducted by the JASON defense advisory group? Freeman Dyson has. He even worked with Albert Einstein. He has won many awards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeman_Dyson Have you won many awards in your study of science?
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Jethro Bodine wrote: He states the science shows some warming, but not global, and some sea level rise.

... but he didn't show you this supposed "science," especially not in front of someone like me who would call him on his BS.
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And you haven't shown me any science that falsifies his claims. You should understand where you currently reside and why others should not simply take your word for something.
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Jethro Bodine wrote: Here are some quotes from skeptical climate scientists who seem to accept there is some warming,

I really don't care what any political activists claim about what science says. I only care what science says.

But that's just me.
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Science doesn't say anything. Scientists share the results of their research data. Where do you go to find your information, be specific.
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Jethro Bodine wrote: Are you suggesting they are wrong?

They might be correct. They might be mistaken. They have no science to support their positions. They have no valid datsets to support their conclusions.
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They have a lot of science to support their positions. Peer reviewed science. Do you have any peer reviewed science to support your positions?
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Jethro Bodine wrote: Do you believe we are in an interglacial period of warming?

I see no reason to believe that. Do you?
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If you believe the planet has had ice ages and that much of North America was under a mile of ice, you should probably agree that it is warmer now than it was then. That seems like a very valid reason to believe we are in an interglacial period.
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Jethro Bodine wrote: There are alarmist scientists and there are scientists skeptical of alarm.

... and none of the above beliefs have any sort of rational basis, i.e. they are not based on science.

Jethro Bodine wrote:I have read research from both sides

There are more sides than those two.
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What are the other sides?
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Jethro Bodine wrote: and put my trust in the skeptical scientists who say there is some warming going on.

I submit that you shouldn't be trusting anyone on what science does or does not say. You should find out what the science says for yourself.

NOBODY's opinion matters when it comes to science.
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YES it does. See, I can also capitalize my claims. Does that make them more truthful than yours? Scientific research is conducted by scientists. For science to say anything, scientists have to do research and compile data and then share it with fellow scientists for peer review. How do you gather your science, osmosis?
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Jethro Bodine wrote: If you believe there is no warming going on, how did you come to that conclusion?

I do not affirmatively believe that there is no warming. I simply do not know, and there is certainly no "warming" that I can perceive and there is no science supporting such a position, therefore I have no reason to believe such.
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So you need to feel the slight warming in order to believe it? Each day the temperature rises as much as 30 degrees where I live. If it begins rising 30.2 degrees, am I suppose to notice?

Are you suggesting there is no science that can prove late portions of the planet were once covered in ice and that much of that ice is now melted?
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Jethro Bodine wrote:My quiz was not a trick question. The sun does have a visible surface.

Then you are mistaken. The sun does not have a any surface. Ergo, the sun has no visible surface.

What appears to us as a visible surface of the sun is called the photosphere. So the question remains; the temperature of the photosphere is approx. 5800 Kelvin. As you travel away from the photosphere to the corona, the temperature drops, according to the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Only it doesn't drop, it increases. Not just a little. It rises more than 200 times the temperature of the photosphere to 1 million to 3 million Kelvin. Why is this? How does heat increase as you move away from the source of the heat. I mention this because it seems to indicate that we don't fully understand how the sun radiates heat toward the earth. There might be dozens of variables involved in what controls the earth's climate and it's my opinion that alarmists ignore many of them and focus on a trace gas as having a significant influence. I believe they are wrong.
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Jethro Bodine wrote: If you were to visit WUWT.com you'd see they have over 417 million hits.

I typically dismiss that site. They don't have too many people who know what they are talking about.
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Again, what are your go-to sites for reliable science?
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Jethro Bodine wrote: Name a few climate scientists that you trust.

None. I go directly to science. If I could I'd eat one climate scientist per day before lunch.

Jethro Bodine wrote: I'm curious why this site shows up on a search when it appears to be viewed and used by so few people.

I know, right? Why does the internet even allow such sites to exist?
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So why do you choose to spend time here? You could sign up on Disqus and debate ten times more people about this topic. You could spend time on sites where scientists exchange ideas and have a much more informed debate. Did you purposely seek out a small site where there is less chance of being challenged?

keepit wrote:
I've noticed that gfm7175 sounds very much like "into the night". Are both of you the same person?

Jethro Bodine wrote:
So why do you choose to spend time here? You could sign up on Disqus and debate ten times more people about this topic. You could spend time on sites where scientists exchange ideas and have a much more informed debate. Did you purposely seek out a small site where there is less chance of being challenged?

keepit wrote:
I've noticed that gfm7175 sounds very much like "into the night". Are both of you the same person?

Jethro Bodine wrote:...one of the smartest people on the planet, like Freeman Dyson;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8&v=JTSxubKfTBU&feature=emb_logo

Jethro Bodine wrote:
I believe the planet is warming slightly. I suspect the planet warms coming out of an ice age and it cools as it descends into an ice age.

gfm7175 wrote:

Third world guy wrote:
Please do not let the moron named IBDaMan (or his clone Into the Night) make you leave the forum.

They cannot make you leave the forum.

tmiddles wrote: So I have a more interesting proposition for you: I really want to find another issue in the past which parrallel's the Global Warming Hysteria well.

IBdaMann wrote:

tmiddles wrote: So I have a more interesting proposition for you: I really want to find another issue in the past which parrallel's the Global Warming Hysteria well.

That's what I'm talking about.
We should totally talk about the Global Cooling of the 70's. I can't think of a more direct parallel.

tmiddles wrote: Especially if you had NASA, the IPCC, top scientists and so on jumping in.

tmiddles wrote: .... being referenced that was just published in a peer reviewed journal

IBdaMann wrote:
For a moment I thought you were serious,

Jethro Bodine wrote:...this site has no alarmists claiming there is an existential threat. ...

tmiddles wrote:

The temperature history isn't alarming at this point but the change in CO2 concentration certainly is.

Jethro Bodine wrote: I'm not just trying to pick on IBdaMann, but for anyone to suggest they have superior knowledge to Freeman Dyson tends to make the person making that claim delusional.

IBdaMann wrote:

You should probably get a better understanding of the specifics of Dyson's positions if you are going to tout him as your "authority" so that you can properly address any questions that you generate by using him as a reference.

tmiddles wrote:

Jethro Bodine wrote:
I believe the planet is warming slightly. I suspect the planet warms coming out of an ice age and it cools as it descends into an ice age.

So this was my attempt to summarize the consensus (Bill Nye, Neil Degrasse Tyson, All Gore) theory on global warming:
do-i-have-the-co2-calamity-math-right

tmiddles wrote:

gfm7175 wrote:

Third world guy wrote:
Please do not let the moron named IBDaMan (or his clone Into the Night) make you leave the forum.

They cannot make you leave the forum.

No one can make you leave a restaurant or anywhere else.

tmiddles wrote:
But stinking a place up

tmiddles wrote:
and constant harassment can make you want to.

tmiddles wrote:
This is why most boards are moderated.

tmiddles wrote:
Also why ITN was banned from debatepolitics.com (which is moderated).

tmiddles wrote:
Jethro: We line up in our "skeptical" view which sadly means we're not likely to do much more than reinforce our own perspective in discussing the issue.

So I have a more interesting proposition for you: I really want to find another issue in the past which parrallel's the Global Warming Hysteria well. I had mentioned vaccinations in past threads (hugely invasive government program, science that regular folks were likely skeptical off). Let me know if you can think of any.

Jethro Bodine wrote:
Not unlike other forums I've spent time on, it takes maybe one or two comments before a thread is hijacked to another topic.

Jethro Bodine wrote:
Maybe the reason nobody commented on a solution to the perceived problem of global warming is because this site has no alarmists claiming there is an existential threat. If that's the case, I probably won't hang around very long, just to sing to the skeptical choir.

Jethro Bodine wrote:
I do have one observation, but it is early on and I could be mistaken. I'm not seeing any links to sites that provide evidence for the claims being made here. It's as though if someone makes a claim and says we can trust them because they are really smart, that somehow means anything. I'm not just trying to pick on IBdaMann, but for anyone to suggest they have superior knowledge to Freeman Dyson tends to make the person making that claim delusional. Sadly, that is quite common on social media.

Jethro Bodine wrote:

Jethro Bodine wrote: There is no doubt that parts of the world are getting warmer, but the warming is not global.
Freeman Dyson

Jethro Bodine wrote: We have no reason to think that climate change is harmful if you look at the world as a whole.

Jethro Bodine wrote: Most places, in fact, are better off being warmer than being colder.

Jethro Bodine wrote: We do not know how much of the environmental change is due to human activities and how much [is due] to long-term natural processes over which we have no control.

Jethro Bodine wrote: It makes very little sense to believe the output of the climate models.

Jethro Bodine wrote: Vegetation is really controlling what happens

Jethro Bodine wrote: Tell me what degrees you have and what awards you have received.

Jethro Bodine wrote: Name five sites you go to for credible information about climate change.

Jethro Bodine wrote: Tell me what caused the mile of ice over North America to melt.

Jethro Bodine wrote: And about that quiz of mine, what causes the temperature to rise from 5800 Kelvin to 3 million Kelvin as you travel away from the sun?

Jethro Bodine wrote:
A wonderful story about the genius Freeman Dyson;

At Jason, taking problems to Dyson is something of a parlor trick. A group of scientists will be sitting around the cafeteria, and one will idly wonder if there is an integer where, if you take its last digit and move it to the front, turning, say, 112 to 211, it's possible to exactly double the value. Dyson will immediately say, "Oh, that's not difficult," allow two short beats to pass and then add, "but of course the smallest such number is 18 digits long." When this happened one day at lunch, William Press remembers, "the table fell silent; nobody had the slightest idea how Freeman could have known such a fact or, even more terrifying, could have derived it in his head in about two seconds." The meal then ended with men who tend to be described with words like "brilliant," "Nobel" and "MacArthur" quietly retreating to their offices to work out what Dyson just knew.

tmiddles wrote:

Jethro Bodine wrote:...this site has no alarmists claiming there is an existential threat. ...

I'm skeptical but find the potential threat serious enough.

tmiddles wrote:
Having a sudden and violent change in environment can destroy life that would normally have a chance to adapt to the same change given time.

tmiddles wrote:
Also the argument against "slowing our roll" as it were, and dialing back industrial fossil fuel use, is pretty weak.

tmiddles wrote:
It seems all we hear is that it'll be expensive (which is really to say it'll be a less lucrative path). In terms of human wealth the present day is unrivaled. Claims we need to really get the global economy going or we'll face hardship are only justifiable based on new record setting standards for human wealth. We don't face a struggle to feed, clothe or equip the global population.

tmiddles wrote:
In the case of fossil fuels that may run out in the near future (oil) it's also a case of stealing from the future.

tmiddles wrote:
The temperature history isn't alarming at this point but the change in CO2 concentration certainly is.

Jethro Bodine wrote:
I'm a skeptic of catastrophic global warming. But after years of debates that don't change anyone's mind, I've approached alarmists with the question; what if everything you believe is true. Then what?

What is your solution? What must we do to save the planet? Their answers are telling. They suggest we do just enough to harm the poor and crush the economy, but not enough to alter the climate. If these climate alarmists were on the Titanic, after it hit the iceberg, they would be screaming at passengers, telling them to grab a bucket and start bailing water, knowing the outcome would be that the ship was still going to sink.

Should the U.S. quit mining coal while China burns more coal than every other nation combined? China is also expecting to manufacture close to 30,000,000 automobiles, 99% of which run on fossil fuels. India is also rapidly expanding their use of fossil fuels, building thousands of miles of new highways and adding more and more cars and trucks to those roads. Developing nations demand the same standard of living as people in the U.S. have had for generations and they know energy production is the key, primarily using fossil fuels.

The U.N. is selling a scheme to redistribute wealth and using bad climate science to generate fear, in hopes of gaining support. The imagined existential threat cannot be mitigated, don't allow politicians an opportunity to reach down into our pockets and rob us so they can address income inequality.