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Is the United States doomed to be the global dumb-dumb when it comes to M2C2?



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17-10-2015 05:14
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4926)
trafn wrote:Interestingly, while doing AI programming in LISP back in the late 70's at Syracuse Univ.,


(((((((Wow!)(Programming) in.LISP) (No) (Wonder (you) (dropped)) (so.much) (acid)))

trafn wrote: one of the stumbling blocks in trying to create a "human" like computer was the realization that computers use logical processes, but humans use both logical and dis-logical processes (i.e. - conflicting thoughts, emotions, ideas). A binary state cannot emulate dis-logic, however a tertiary state can.

I'm sorry, but the people with whom you were working should have read up on their theory of computation. If they had, they might have discovered that Turing showed us that a binary state is all you need for any algorithm. You gain no more power by increasing the alphabet, modifying the grammar, adding processes, etc...

Fuzzy logic allows one to implement subjective models that are platform agnostic...and theologically agnostic as well, but that is probably irrelevant.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
17-10-2015 05:34
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@IBdaMann - (((((((Wow!)(Programming) in.LISP) (No) (Wonder (you) (dropped)) (so.much) (acid))) -
- Oh, I love it! Haven't seen that in ages!

By the way, I should probably clarify something here. Please note that I said that I had dropped acid, but that's not the same thing as taking acid. Let me explain.

When I was a teenager, I had a part-time job at the local police station ("Jumping-Junior Patrol Office trafn reporting for duty, Sir!"). Anyways, one day I actually solved a petty crime, so I got promoted to assistant clerk in the evidence room. For some strange reason, at that time, our small town had become a major drop point for all the LSD that was being exchanged between the east and west coasts, so there were always a few "acid cases" going on at the courthouse across the street. As the assistant clerk, it was my job to carry evidence over to the courthouse as they needed it. Unfortunately, the evidence room was refrigerated and kept extremely cold, and on hot days when I'd carry the LSD over to the courthouse, the little tiny plastic bags containing it would get covered in condensation from all the humidity in the outdoor air. Then, by the time I got in the court building, they'd be all slippery and I'd drop them on the floor. For some reason, every time I'd bend over to pick them up, I'd lose my balance and bang my head on the floor (What can I say? I was a teenager. I was clumsy). Now, I think all that head banging from all that acid I dropped has altered my state of consciousness permanently. But I want you to know that I would never take acid. I'm not that kind of person.
17-10-2015 06:56
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9597)
trafn wrote:
@Into the Night - yes it does get confusing by today's standards of our binary world. Remember, this was 30 years ago, long before the PC's hit the market. Bits on a harddrive are just areas of variable polarity. These old/ancient concepts were based upon using non-metalic mediums with variable states of electron excitement. Obviously, nothing came of this, but the theories were compelling in terms of the possibilities they raised (i.e. - dis-logic).

This stuff was put together in the days of the mainframes. Far older than 30 years ago or the PC.

Bits on hard drives back then (and tapes) used NRZI encodiing. This essentially limits the time a direct current signal is sent to the recording head. That was the closest thing to storing a bit as a bit. Modern magnetic media disks use quadrature phase shift encoding, essentially storing two bits in one bit space.

No magnetic media ever stored bits as raw bits. The media cannot accept it that way due to the limitations of the fact that it is magnetic media. Such media cannot store direct current, only alternating current.

Optical media can encode as raw bits. That is how CDROMS, DVDs, and Blueray disks are encoded. Mass produced disks use a polycarbonate layer with the bits molded into it placed against another polycarbonate layer that has been aluminized. User programmable optical media use an azide dye spread over an aluminum sheet using essentially a spin-art machine. The write laser burns holes in this dye, revealing the shiny layer below. Azide dyes are self-healing, however, which is why higher density versions of these disks eventually 'forget' the information.
17-10-2015 17:42
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4926)
trafn wrote: Then, by the time I got in the court building, they'd be all slippery and I'd drop them on the floor. ... But I want you to know that I would never take acid. I'm not that kind of person.

I'm sure that when you were playing poker with the guys in the evidence locker, using LSD evidence as "chips" that you, being the intelligent guy you are, won more than your fair share and "scored" a lot of acid. I know that you would never take acid. You don't seem like that kind of person.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
17-10-2015 18:07
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Into the Night - thanks for the very thorough history lesson which filled in a lot of the blanks for me.

After all, my personal experience with computers only goes back about this far with National Semiconductor (I was too young to fit in over at Raytheon):



....when memory was being stored like this:



With regards to our tangential discussion of dis-logic versus logic, perhaps you might wanna remember that in addition to not believing everything you read, that what you do read is not everything.
18-10-2015 02:33
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4926)
trafn wrote: in addition to not believing everything you read, that what you do read is not everything.


trafn: Have you read any good books lately
IBdaMann: Nope.
trafn: Why not?
IBdaMann: Reading good books isn't everything.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
18-10-2015 02:51
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@IBdaMann - god, you read my mind! In fact, the only reason I graduated at all was Cliff Notes, which weren't even that necessary as my teachers usually just focused on the basics:

18-10-2015 23:13
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9597)
trafn wrote:
@Into the Night - thanks for the very thorough history lesson which filled in a lot of the blanks for me.

After all, my personal experience with computers only goes back about this far with National Semiconductor (I was too young to fit in over at Raytheon):



....when memory was being stored like this:



With regards to our tangential discussion of dis-logic versus logic, perhaps you might wanna remember that in addition to not believing everything you read, that what you do read is not everything.


(floating (All I (see are (little (yellow dots))))

Obviously. That is true for you too.
19-10-2015 00:27
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Into the Night:

(((you have (to (((look harder) btw)) are you) calling me) a bisexual?)

PS - Interesting note, this thread inspired me to go back and looked at the user manual which I wrote for this system (hadn't looked at it in years!), which later became available through DEC and ACS (Applied Color Systems). The CPU was a DEC PDP 11-30 running their RT-11 (v4) operating system and it had the following peripheral devices:

1. an LA120 line printer.



2. a VT100 operator terminal (integrated screen/keyboard).



3 two RL02 disk drives (like the one in the picture above).



4. an ACS Spectro-Sensor II:



Ahhhhh! The good old days!


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!

Edited on 19-10-2015 00:43
19-10-2015 00:39
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9597)
trafn wrote:
@Into the Night:

(((you have (to (((look harder) btw)) are you) calling me) a bisexual?)


Do you see me doing so? No. I am only pointing out that your caution telling me about what I read or don't read applies to you too.
19-10-2015 00:45
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Into the Night - but of course, my dear, but of course. What's good for the goose, and all that.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
19-10-2015 21:07
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4926)
trafn wrote:
(((you have (to (((look harder) btw)) are you) calling me) a bisexual?)
Ahhhhh! The good old days!

One thing you might remember about the good ol' days of LISP is that there was always plenty of SEx, whether you wanted or not.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
20-10-2015 00:16
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@IBdaMann - yes, those were the good old days indeed. I mean how many people did you know who were given their own private PDP 11-30, complete with a line printer, 2 state of the art cartridge drives, a spectrometer, and an assortment of software which included 3 compilers (I think they were Fortran, Pascal, and one other I can't remember). Man, I had it made. Sure I had to do 3-4 fabric analysis per day, each taking maybe 20 minutes, but the rest of the time was mine. That was an amazing computer in its day. Even the SOS line editor software (a cut down version from the DEC 10 mainframe) was kick ass.

As for LISP, interesting, thought-provoking, but not very practical. I know it was used to do a lot of theoretical work (i.e. - AI), but did you ever hear of any practical applications it was used for (i.e. - opening a garage door, sending someone to the moon, etc.)?


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
20-10-2015 02:24
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9597)
trafn wrote:
@IBdaMann - yes, those were the good old days indeed. I mean how many people did you know who were given their own private PDP 11-30, complete with a line printer, 2 state of the art cartridge drives, a spectrometer, and an assortment of software which included 3 compilers (I think they were Fortran, Pascal, and one other I can't remember). Man, I had it made. Sure I had to do 3-4 fabric analysis per day, each taking maybe 20 minutes, but the rest of the time was mine. That was an amazing computer in its day. Even the SOS line editor software (a cut down version from the DEC 10 mainframe) was kick ass.

As for LISP, interesting, thought-provoking, but not very practical. I know it was used to do a lot of theoretical work (i.e. - AI), but did you ever hear of any practical applications it was used for (i.e. - opening a garage door, sending someone to the moon, etc.)?

It was used for developing the Google search engine and spider. I have seen several web sites written in it from time to time. I know of web sites written in Cobol too.

Oh...and emacs of course (although it's a heavily modifed LISP).
Edited on 20-10-2015 02:25
20-10-2015 03:41
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Into the Night - Thanks for the info. Wow, that's fascinating. I had no idea.

Not that I had anything to do with Google, but it is nice to know that I once touch the same dust that finally became a star.

You never know where things will lead to sometimes, do you?


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
22-10-2015 03:21
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@climate scientist, Ceist and Tototo only - getting back to the original topic of this thread, given the United States is home to the majority of M2C2 deniers in the world, do you think there is any real danger that they could actually impede the US from taking an active role in developing M2C2 technology?


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
11-03-2017 21:51
litesong
★★★★★
(2297)
Now, that "Don'T rump" is ending science in the U.S., we can now define the U.S. decline as the "Don'T rump" kill switch.
Edited on 11-03-2017 21:52
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