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Is the United States doomed to be the global dumb-dumb when it comes to M2C2?



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Is the United States doomed to be the global dumb-dumb when it comes to M2C2?14-10-2015 11:50
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
Given that the majority of M2C2 (man-made climate change) deniers live in the United States, does that mean, due to the deniers' influence, that as the rest of the world continues to transform into carbon neutral economies, the U.S. will be left behind to backslide into a second-rate technological nation?

Thoughts?


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!

Edited on 14-10-2015 11:50
14-10-2015 14:16
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(3688)
trafn wrote:
Given that the majority of M2C2 (man-made climate change) deniers live in the United States, does that mean, due to the deniers' influence, that as the rest of the world continues to transform into carbon neutral economies, the U.S. will be left behind to backslide into a second-rate technological nation?

Thoughts?

Given that Europe is warmazombie-dominated, it's no wonder so many of their economies are tanking.

It might be that the religiously mind-numbing, independent-thought-suppressing, creativity-destroying, dependence-generating Globo-warming faith so prevalent in Europe will keep the US in its global technology leader position for decades to come.

Hey, to each his own.

Thoughts?


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
14-10-2015 15:37
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@ IBdaMann - from your post above, can I assume you're not coming to our annual "Celebrate A Carbon Neutral Wolrd Day" festivities?

I've reserved a carbonation free beverage especially for you!


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
14-10-2015 21:03
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(3688)
trafn wrote: @ IBdaMann - from your post above, can I assume you're not coming to our annual "Celebrate A Carbon Neutral Wolrd Day" festivities?

I might go just to find out what the heck "carbon nuetrality" is.

[quote]trafn wrote: I've reserved a carbonation free beverage especially for you!

A sea breeze? A piña colada? A Kahlua-Bailey's frappuccino? It might very well be worth attending.

If I go, can I assume you won't be asking me to give any lectures?


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
14-10-2015 21:10
Into the Night
★★★★★
(7976)
trafn wrote:
Given that the majority of M2C2 (man-made climate change) deniers live in the United States, does that mean, due to the deniers' influence, that as the rest of the world continues to transform into carbon neutral economies, the U.S. will be left behind to backslide into a second-rate technological nation?

Thoughts?

We already ARE a second-rate technological nation.

There are currently NO manufacturers in the United States for resistors, capacitors, inductors, crystals, transistors, tubes, LEDs, LCDs, TFTs, rare earth magnets, and batteries (except a couple of automotive battery recyclers).

There are very few printed circuit board lithographers left (generally only prototyping or specialized boards), and very little in the way of plating services left (most are specialized in marine and aerospace applications). There is ONE memory manufacturer left. We otherwise make NO integrated circuits here except for prototyping work. There are only TWO instrumentation companies, and they've already sent most of their work overseas.

The United States is currently at least 40 years behind the state of the art in electronics and it's growing worse.

All of this is the direct result of government interference and regulations.
14-10-2015 21:28
IBdaMann
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(3688)
Into the Night wrote: [quote] There are currently NO manufacturers in the United States for resistors, capacitors, inductors, crystals, transistors, tubes, LEDs, LCDs, TFTs, rare earth magnets, and batteries (except a couple of automotive battery recyclers).

That might better qualify as a manufacturing issue, but you bring up a very good point nonetheless.


Into the Night wrote: The United States is currently at least 40 years behind the state of the art in electronics and it's growing worse.

It's not the case that we don't know how to engineer them into systems. We just don't produce them domestically. We know how to make coffee from imported beans.

Into the Night wrote: All of this is the direct result of government interference and regulations.

Great point, worthy of its own discussion.

We should dedicate a thread to the "Economics of Global Warming."


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
14-10-2015 23:23
Into the Night
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(7976)
IBdaMann wrote:
Into the Night wrote: [quote] There are currently NO manufacturers in the United States for resistors, capacitors, inductors, crystals, transistors, tubes, LEDs, LCDs, TFTs, rare earth magnets, and batteries (except a couple of automotive battery recyclers).

That might better qualify as a manufacturing issue, but you bring up a very good point nonetheless.


Into the Night wrote: The United States is currently at least 40 years behind the state of the art in electronics and it's growing worse.

It's not the case that we don't know how to engineer them into systems. We just don't produce them domestically. We know how to make coffee from imported beans.

Into the Night wrote: All of this is the direct result of government interference and regulations.

Great point, worthy of its own discussion.

We should dedicate a thread to the "Economics of Global Warming."

I would be so bold to say that we have lost a lot of engineering capability as well. The technical cascade that results from having a manufacturing base here is critically important to engineering talent that accompanies it.

Example: There is NO one in the United States that knows how to make a modern TV set, capable of handling the high speed video it must process in an efficient manner to function.

All we can do is to integrate the required components, that are all imported, then to try to hack the software together sufficiently to be efficient enough.
14-10-2015 23:29
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Into the Night & IBdaMann - Sadly, the U.S. is not a major manufacturer of technology or anything else anymore. From my perspective, the underlying problem was pure economics: foreign countries were willing to manufacture things for less (and, unfortunately, at lower quality also some times). Their citizens have a much lower standard of living than U.S. citizens, so they'll work for peanuts compared to what people in the U.S. demand. Sadly, it will take the reduction in U.S. standard of living, which has been ongoing since about 2007, to make this country competitive once again. In the meantime, it's just pure economics with a tad bit of political meddling from all sides.
14-10-2015 23:43
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@IBdaMann - the economics of GW (hoax or not) are a vast and fascinating topic. I've already created several threads to discuss some of the issues:

Is the United States doomed to be the global dumb-dumb when it comes to M2C2? (this one)

Is M2C2 the "New" New Deal?

Maybe M2C2 really is all about money

Can you stil save the future from M2C2 after you've already sold it?

Many more can still be added.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
14-10-2015 23:50
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
What really is the worst thing that could happen by preparing for M2C2 (man-made climate change)?

Even if it doesn't come true, are any of the things being proposed actually bad for us?

15-10-2015 01:03
Into the Night
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(7976)
trafn wrote:
@Into the Night & IBdaMann - Sadly, the U.S. is not a major manufacturer of technology or anything else anymore. From my perspective, the underlying problem was pure economics: foreign countries were willing to manufacture things for less (and, unfortunately, at lower quality also some times). Their citizens have a much lower standard of living than U.S. citizens, so they'll work for peanuts compared to what people in the U.S. demand. Sadly, it will take the reduction in U.S. standard of living, which has been ongoing since about 2007, to make this country competitive once again. In the meantime, it's just pure economics with a tad bit of political meddling from all sides.

It is not pure economics. It is manipulated economics brought about by our own government. These components are manufactured overseas by the same companies that used to manufacture them here. Additional foreign manufactures started and are benefiting from that.

Cost of labor is only part of the picture. The cost of a manufacturing plant is much more than the cost of labor.
15-10-2015 01:34
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Into the Night - Agreed, the cost of a manufacturing plant is much more than the cost of labor, but the fiscal disparity starts to dissipate rapidly after the first year. This is because infrastructure costs (plants, machinery, supplies, etc.) are often lessened via tax subsidies from the home or sponsoring country, and the entire investment is then depreciated over time (tax and private investor portion) to yield a sizable return on investment (ROI). Other than physical parts, the greatest annual recurring cost is labor (training, wages, benefits, etc.), so companies minimize exposure when creating new infrastructure by seeking out locations which provide the best balance between infrastructure and operating expense tax relief, physical resource availability and labor expense. The United States is an automatic big loser when it comes to one of those three: labor expense. So, while there is considerable cottage industry manufacturing labor still functioning in the U.S. (regional micro-suppliers), the bulk of mass production labor is firmly overseas.
15-10-2015 02:17
Into the Night
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(7976)
trafn wrote:
What really is the worst thing that could happen by preparing for M2C2 (man-made climate change)?

Even if it doesn't come true, are any of the things being proposed actually bad for us?



Yes. They shut down industry, forcing it to go elsewhere (where there are better conditions for them). They distort the market, creating black and gray markets. They create graft and corruption. They make it harder for people to survive, particularly those that don't have much choice of energy use. They create false fears and paranoia, and industries based on feeding from such. They raise prices and cause shortages. They give too much power to government, who have little incentive to actually solve the problem and none of the expertise to do so.

Other than that, there might be a couple of things I missed.
15-10-2015 02:24
Into the Night
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(7976)
trafn wrote:
@Into the Night - Agreed, the cost of a manufacturing plant is much more than the cost of labor, but the fiscal disparity starts to dissipate rapidly after the first year. This is because infrastructure costs (plants, machinery, supplies, etc.) are often lessened via tax subsidies from the home or sponsoring country, and the entire investment is then depreciated over time (tax and private investor portion) to yield a sizable return on investment (ROI). Other than physical parts, the greatest annual recurring cost is labor (training, wages, benefits, etc.), so companies minimize exposure when creating new infrastructure by seeking out locations which provide the best balance between infrastructure and operating expense tax relief, physical resource availability and labor expense. The United States is an automatic big loser when it comes to one of those three: labor expense. So, while there is considerable cottage industry manufacturing labor still functioning in the U.S. (regional micro-suppliers), the bulk of mass production labor is firmly overseas.

The difference in the cost of labor is not nearly as big as you think it is, for one thing, not even in China, which heavily subsidizes that work, but in a poor way. What DOES change is the cost of benefits and other regulatory costs that are forced on US companies that are not forced on companies overseas.
15-10-2015 03:51
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Into the Night - as far as the macro-economics of labor are concerned, I think it's something we'll just disagree about. Either way, it is possible that any such large scale, global transition might go afoul. As a matter of fact, given history, it'd be foolish to assume that everything would work out fine. Yet, there were people who argued against entering WWII for the same reasons you're arguing against a carbon-neutral transition: non-military related industries would be shut down, gray and black markets would be created, graft, corruption, fears, paranoia, raised prices, shortages, government take overs, etcetera. And, to a large degree, all of these problems did come true. Even worse, some 55 million people were killed. But, history still records WWII as a necessary endeavor (though I'm sure some could still reasonably argue otherwise), and I think that even with all your concerns, that the transition will happen, it will have both a dark and bright side (just like WWII), and that history will record it as a necessary endeavor.
15-10-2015 05:08
IBdaMann
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(3688)
trafn wrote: @Into the Night & IBdaMann - Sadly, the U.S. is not a major manufacturer of technology or anything else anymore. From my perspective, the underlying problem was pure economics:

Absolutely. Leftist policies of overtaxation, overregulation and overall business hostility made it too expensive and too punitive for many to run a successful business in the United States...so they moved to countries that appreciated the jobs that were created and the economy that was bolstered.

trafn wrote: foreign countries were willing to manufacture things for less

It's more like the US required manufacturing to cost an arm and a leg.

trafn wrote: ...so they'll work for peanuts compared to what people in the U.S. demand.

That's the effect of unions, i.e. convince the members that they simply deserve ridiculous salaries dimply for breathing, independent of whatever value they might or might not be adding to society.

What the US needs is a more business-friendly environment to encourage companies to come back and/or stay. Taxes should be reduced. Regulation should be reduced. Federal spending should be cut, even the Defense Department. Social programs need to be tempered. We should not be borrowing money to pay for programs we cannot otherwise afford.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
15-10-2015 05:30
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@IBdaMann - When they started, unions were essential in dragging the U.S. labor force out from under the hands of the Robber Barons who were running rough shod over the economy (a great book about this is Upton Sinclair's 1904 classic, The Jungle). But like all good things, the pendulum swung too far, and by the 60's and 70's the unions were indeed more about graft and protecting their bosses than about the union members. Of course, they are not solely to blame, for you can't forget about Wall Street and Pennsylvania Avenue. It's just astounding to see how far everyone - unionist, financiers, politicians - are willing to let things go. I guess they've all contracted a bad case of spinal moneyitis.
15-10-2015 11:25
Into the Night
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(7976)
trafn wrote:
@IBdaMann - When they started, unions were essential in dragging the U.S. labor force out from under the hands of the Robber Barons who were running rough shod over the economy (a great book about this is Upton Sinclair's 1904 classic, The Jungle). But like all good things, the pendulum swung too far, and by the 60's and 70's the unions were indeed more about graft and protecting their bosses than about the union members. Of course, they are not solely to blame, for you can't forget about Wall Street and Pennsylvania Avenue. It's just astounding to see how far everyone - unionist, financiers, politicians - are willing to let things go. I guess they've all contracted a bad case of spinal moneyitis.

The unions have always been about graft and protecting their bosses at the expense of the union members. Those 'robber barons' manufactured everything with far greater efficiency than before, hiring massive numbers of workers into jobs that weren't there before, and made product far cheaper than before. Don't let high school history idiots color your view of what these men accomplished.

It was government again that came around and disturbed that market in the interest of 'fairness'. It was the government that threw those people out of work again. There is no difference between the unions of the 'robber baron' days and the 60's, or even today. They are thugs...and always have been. The only place trades unions did any good was during the industrial revolution in Britain, and the way factory bosses there grossly abused their workers. There were a few problems like that here the States, but nothing like the abuse that happened in Britain.
15-10-2015 15:17
IBdaMann
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(3688)
trafn wrote:
Even if it doesn't come true, are any of the things being proposed actually bad for us?

I appreciate your picture. That is the list of all the real things conservatives push for.

Leftists unwittingly seek to destroy all those things in the name of supporting those things.

Warmazombies desperately want to own "environmentalism" and in their demonization of conservatives they oppose all conservative environmental initiatives in favor of supporting leftist environment and economy damaging initiatives in the name of stopping the fantasy "Global Warming", they are obsessed with destroying the world in the name of saving it, and they hate conservatives for trying to save humanity in ways that oppose their WACKY religion.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
15-10-2015 16:33
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@IBdaMann - what your vision of "saving the world" looks like depends on what you most value. If you most value individual financial wealth for all the good it has to offer individuals, then your vision of saving the world will likely either be based on a capitalistic or fascist platform. If you most value societal needs and all the good it has to offer societies, then your vision of saving the world will likely either be based on a socialistic or communistic platform.

The funny thing is, in a perfect world where everyone mattered, any one of these starting points would be fine. The problem isn't which ideology or philosophy you use, the problem is how we manipulate our own ideals when we bring them into the real world. Even a totalitarian dictatorship could, in theory, lead to utopia, if it were run by a truly benevolent dictator. Sadly, when it comes to people, absolute power corrupts absolutely, which makes us the ghosts in our own machines. So, like I've always said:

The problem with people is people.


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!

Edited on 15-10-2015 16:34
15-10-2015 19:21
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(3688)
trafn wrote:
@IBdaMann - what your vision of "saving the world" looks like depends on what you most value.

No way. One's vision of salvation is entirely dependent on what one believes is needed to achieve it, and that is heavily influenced by one's religion. One's urgency and devotion to achieving salvation is entirely dependent upon his fear of not achieving it.

If I actually convince a man that he will burn forever in the Lake of Fire unless he accepts Jesus as his savior and votes to outlaw abortion, ...guess what, he'll likely proclaim Jesus as his savior and will likely oppose pro-abortion political candidates. If I convince a man that the "Global Warming Monster" will fry him or his children or his grandchildren if he doesn't accept "Climate" as his savior and vote to outlaw the element carbon, ...guess what, he'll preach "The Science" from every corner and will use "carbon taxes" as a litmus test on election day.

Would you like to know what it's like being free of all religious dogma? Just ask. Don't be afraid to come to me with the hard stuff.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist

Edited on 15-10-2015 19:25
15-10-2015 20:41
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@IBdaMann - okay, I'll bite, what's it like to be free of all religious dogma?

15-10-2015 21:14
Into the Night
★★★★★
(7976)
trafn wrote:
@IBdaMann - what your vision of "saving the world" looks like depends on what you most value. If you most value individual financial wealth for all the good it has to offer individuals, then your vision of saving the world will likely either be based on a capitalistic or fascist platform. If you most value societal needs and all the good it has to offer societies, then your vision of saving the world will likely either be based on a socialistic or communistic platform.

The funny thing is, in a perfect world where everyone mattered, any one of these starting points would be fine. The problem isn't which ideology or philosophy you use, the problem is how we manipulate our own ideals when we bring them into the real world. Even a totalitarian dictatorship could, in theory, lead to utopia, if it were run by a truly benevolent dictator. Sadly, when it comes to people, absolute power corrupts absolutely, which makes us the ghosts in our own machines. So, like I've always said:

The problem with people is people.

Not even a theoretically perfectly benevolent dictator would be utopia. The reason is there is no way a single man (or an oligarchy) could micromanage resources to the constantly changing needs and desires of the population. Such systems cannot take into account things like improvements in producing those resources, determining if an invented new product is desirable by the population, marshaling resources he has no expertise in, etc.

Then you can add to that the problems of opportunistic sociopaths coming to power.
15-10-2015 21:48
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Into the Night - actually, it has already been well established in the science of theoretical politics that the rise of a truly benevolent dictator would only occur within a truly benevolent society in which each and every member fully and wholeheartedly supported it's benevolent dictator. Therefore, the need for micromanagement is completely eliminated. The problem arises in that if a truly benevolent society did ever actually exist, it would be self-evident that it did not need a leader and, therefore, none of its members would be inspired to rise up as dictator. Of course, you might postulate the situation where the benevolent dictator intercedes as an imigrant from another society, but such an external dictator could not be benevolent as such domination would be based upon imposing something which was not needed in the first place. In other words, the benevolent dictator's very existence actually proves that she/he does not exist (somehow, I sense a falsifiable model challenge on the near horizon).
16-10-2015 03:25
Into the Night
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(7976)
trafn wrote:
@Into the Night - actually, it has already been well established in the science of theoretical politics that the rise of a truly benevolent dictator would only occur within a truly benevolent society in which each and every member fully and wholeheartedly supported it's benevolent dictator. Therefore, the need for micromanagement is completely eliminated. The problem arises in that if a truly benevolent society did ever actually exist, it would be self-evident that it did not need a leader and, therefore, none of its members would be inspired to rise up as dictator. Of course, you might postulate the situation where the benevolent dictator intercedes as an imigrant from another society, but such an external dictator could not be benevolent as such domination would be based upon imposing something which was not needed in the first place. In other words, the benevolent dictator's very existence actually proves that she/he does not exist (somehow, I sense a falsifiable model challenge on the near horizon).


Not a falsifiable model challenge, just a statement showing it's false.

No argument can claim true and false at the same time in the same sense. This is the exclusionary rule in logic.

Saying that a benevolent dictator's existence proves they don't exist is a violation of this rule. If no one rises up to be a dictator, then you don't have a dictatorship. You have anarchy.
16-10-2015 11:27
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Into the Night - In a reality based model, you are correct in stating that nothing can exist in two states at once (i.e. - be both true and false). But I'm working within a framework from the science of theoretical politics when discussing the duality complex of the benevolent dictator, which does allow for cross-cancelling modalities.

By the way, there is a lot of research currently underway on computer memory that allows for three states (-1, 0, and +1) instead of just the commonly used two states (0, 1). You might wanna check out some of the computational implications of this.
Edited on 16-10-2015 11:28
16-10-2015 14:30
IBdaMann
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(3688)
trafn wrote:
@IBdaMann - okay, I'll bite, what's it like to be free of all religious dogma?

Freedom! Freedom to think wherever I wish and to seek any answers without having to ask my dogma for permission. Freedom from any paralyzing fear of science; in fact, I can hang out with science and make it one of my best friends.

This also includes the freedom to see CO2 for what it really is, a normal, ordinary but life-essential gas that has no mystical, magical superpowers that allow it to violate the laws of physics and wreak malevolent weather miracles on planet earth.

You should try it.

They make an interesting variant in Staffordshire, England.



I'm sorry, what was that you said?




Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
16-10-2015 14:49
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(3688)
trafn wrote: But I'm working within a framework from the science of theoretical politics when discussing the duality complex of the benevolent dictator, which does allow for cross-cancelling modalities.

Wow! That is one champion sentence. I would need a while to parse it and to fully analyze it semantically. It's a true powerhouse.

trafn wrote: By the way, there is a lot of research currently underway on computer memory that allows for three states (-1, 0, and +1)

This is quite common. It's the age-old Christian argument for the Holy Trinity. Global Warming has already adopted it as well, i.e. Global Warming, "Climate" and "The Holy Scientists." This is one of the reasons Pope Francis will have such an easy time integrating Global Warming into Catholicism; the two are already isomorphic.

trafn wrote: instead of just the commonly used two states (0, 1). You might wanna check out some of the computational implications of this.


This has already been examined and binary has been found to be optimal. One could, for example, engineer bits to each hold one of four values (voltages) and thus halve the required bus size, but then a small amount of additional overhead would be required at the bit level that makes the system less efficient overall. As you increase the number of bit values away from two, system efficiency decreases with increases in frequency of bit errors.

There have been many different types of systems engineered in the past and yet all computer engineering has unanimously settled on binary for this reason.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
16-10-2015 15:11
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@IBdaMann - you stated that you see CO2 for what it really is, a normal, ordinary but life-essential gas that has no mystical, magical superpowers. While not mystical or magical, perhaps, CO2 does have many well known properties, including the capacity to kill:

Hypercapnia, also known as CO2 retention, hypercapnea, and hypercarbia, is a condition of abnormally elevated carbon dioxide (CO2) levels in the blood. Carbon dioxide is a gaseous product of the body's metabolism and is normally expelled through the lungs. Hypercapnia normally triggers a reflex which increases breathing and access to oxygen, such as arousal and turning the head during sleep. A failure of this reflex can be fatal, for example as a contributory factor in sudden infant death syndrome. (source) *

As it can be both life giving and life extinguishing, why not also consider the possibility that it could also effect things larger than us, like the environment maybe?

* - BONUS INFO: Anesthesiologist use CO2 during surgery to make patients unconscious by giving a muscle relaxant which inhibits the gag reflex so that they can suspend you on that fine line between life and death


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
16-10-2015 16:21
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@IBdaMann - you stated there have been many different types of systems engineered in the past and yet all computer engineering has unanimously settled on binary for this reason.

Interestingly, while doing AI programming in LISP back in the late 70's at Syracuse Univ., one of the stumbling blocks in trying to create a "human" like computer was the realization that computers use logical processes, but humans use both logical and dis-logical processes (i.e. - conflicting thoughts, emotions, ideas). A binary state cannot emulate dis-logic, however a tertiary state can.

This allows for some very interesting applications. For example, when the CPU sends data to the harddrive and tries to overlay a +1 state on a -1 state, the recorded data becomes a 0 state. In other words, the computer now has a "sub-conscious" where calculations (i.e. - changing the -1 to a 0) happen outside of the CPU. This can result in conflictatory computational results as the CPU will continue working in RAM with the original +1, yet if for any reason it should go to retrieve the original data from stored memory (the sub-conscious) it will now be working with a 0. In effect, this would allow computers to emulate human dis-logic.

I was also working in the chemistry department an the time no super-conductor research involving selenium compounds, and I think there was talk then that selenium might also be able to hold 3 stable quantum states of charge, but I'm not sure if anything ever came of that (obviously not).


The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
16-10-2015 16:47
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(3688)
trafn wrote:
@IBdaMann - you stated that you see CO2 for what it really is, a normal, ordinary but life-essential gas that has no mystical, magical superpowers. While not mystical or magical, perhaps, CO2 does have many well known properties, including the capacity to kill:


I also state that O2 is a normal, ordinary but life-essential gas that has no mystical, magical superpowers. While not mystical or magical, O2 does have many well known properties, including the capacity to kill.

The CNS effects of oxygen toxicity are called 'Bert effect' named after Paul Ber t, who, in 1878, demostrated convulsions in larks exposed to 15-20 ATA
(atmosphere absolute air)2. The so called 'Smith effect' is the pulmonary effects of oxygen toxicity, named after J Lorain Smith, who, in 1899, while trying to reproduce 'Bert effect', noticed fatal pneumonia in rats after 4 days of exposure to 73% oxygen at 1 ATA1,2.


http://medind.nic.in/jac/t03/i3/jact03i3p234.pdf)

O2 can be both life giving and life extinguishing, so do you also consider the possibility that O2 causes Global Warming and weather miracles? Maybe Global Warming and "Climate" change are both due to oxygen and nothing to do with CO2. Yes? After all, O2 gives life but is a lethal poison as well.

* - BONUS INFO: CO2 is a commercial refrigerant. [/quote]


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
16-10-2015 18:22
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@IBdaMann - wow, didn't know that about CO2 being used as a commercial refrigerant. Very interesting!

Maybe if we just got all the supermarket owners around the globe to fix the leaks in their refrigeration units, then we could put this whole nasty CO2 business behind us
16-10-2015 18:51
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(3688)
trafn wrote:
@IBdaMann - wow, didn't know that about CO2 being used as a commercial refrigerant. Very interesting!

Maybe if we just got all the supermarket owners around the globe to fix the leaks in their refrigeration units, then we could put this whole nasty CO2 business behind us


Maybe, if we can find a way to direct all the man-made CO2 emissions into refrigeration units, we can kill two birds with one stone.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
16-10-2015 20:13
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@IBdaMann, good one! Now if I could just figure out a way to hook up my colonoscope to the AC unit, we might be on to something

"Yes, ladies and gentlemen. It's new! It's improved! Ac with a down-home EARTHY fragrance!"
16-10-2015 20:52
Into the Night
★★★★★
(7976)
trafn wrote:
@Into the Night - In a reality based model, you are correct in stating that nothing can exist in two states at once (i.e. - be both true and false). But I'm working within a framework from the science of theoretical politics when discussing the duality complex of the benevolent dictator, which does allow for cross-cancelling modalities.

By the way, there is a lot of research currently underway on computer memory that allows for three states (-1, 0, and +1) instead of just the commonly used two states (0, 1). You might wanna check out some of the computational implications of this.


The rule of exclusivity applies to all arguments, both theoretical and real. For a 'science' to allow this means by definition it could not be a science at all, since science hangs it's hat on logic and mathematics to exist. Science cannot exist without logic.

The implications of tri-state memory are already well known. It won't improve any storage density at all. The reason is because of the restrictions of the Boolean math domain, which does not allow for a half bit of information (there are no fractions or negative numbers in that domain). Such a bit is meaningless.

A 'tri-state' output gate, however, is possible. It uses two full bits. It's actually a quad-state gate where two of the states appear identical (they aren't).
16-10-2015 21:14
Into the Night
★★★★★
(7976)
trafn wrote:
@IBdaMann - you stated there have been many different types of systems engineered in the past and yet all computer engineering has unanimously settled on binary for this reason.

Interestingly, while doing AI programming in LISP back in the late 70's at Syracuse Univ., one of the stumbling blocks in trying to create a "human" like computer was the realization that computers use logical processes, but humans use both logical and dis-logical processes (i.e. - conflicting thoughts, emotions, ideas). A binary state cannot emulate dis-logic, however a tertiary state can.

What appears to be dis-logic in humans is logic, but on a much higher resolution than any computer can achieve, regardless of the programming language. This is the single stumbling block in getting a computer to emulate a human. A tertiary state is not possible, due to the limits of the Boolean Math domain. It is not possible to have a half bit.

BTW a chicken does have LISP, they just don't have LIPS.

trafn wrote:
This allows for some very interesting applications. For example, when the CPU sends data to the harddrive and tries to overlay a +1 state on a -1 state, the recorded data becomes a 0 state. In other words, the computer now has a "sub-conscious" where calculations (i.e. - changing the -1 to a 0) happen outside of the CPU. This can result in conflictatory computational results as the CPU will continue working in RAM with the original +1, yet if for any reason it should go to retrieve the original data from stored memory (the sub-conscious) it will now be working with a 0. In effect, this would allow computers to emulate human dis-logic.

What you are describing is either signed math (which uses at least two bits) or a linear computer, which stores bit states as differing intensities of some medium, such as voltage, current, length of a stick, length of a string, etc. Linear computers are less accurate (due to the greater difficulty in constructing an accurate read mechanism for such systems) but faster (since they are not as accurate). In the end, you are still working with bits, even when you use a ruler or a slide rule. You are never more accurate than the markings on those devices.

Again, you are still in the world of logic, just as human thinking is. The only difference is resolution.

trafn wrote:
I was also working in the chemistry department an the time no super-conductor research involving selenium compounds, and I think there was talk then that selenium might also be able to hold 3 stable quantum states of charge, but I'm not sure if anything ever came of that (obviously not).

Actually irrelevant. That's a bit like saying you can store information using three voltages instead of two. The third voltage is meaningless as an information storage or telegraphic device. This, in the end, is all a computer is, combined with a sequencing device. This is true of both linear and digital computers.
Edited on 16-10-2015 21:22
16-10-2015 21:27
Into the Night
★★★★★
(7976)
trafn wrote:
@IBdaMann - wow, didn't know that about CO2 being used as a commercial refrigerant. Very interesting!

Maybe if we just got all the supermarket owners around the globe to fix the leaks in their refrigeration units, then we could put this whole nasty CO2 business behind us


They are not going to fix the leaks.
How do you think the cold soda and beer aisle puts all that carbonation in their beverages?
16-10-2015 23:02
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Into the Night - lots to catch up on:

1. My apologies. I haven't kept up on some of the latest in 3 state memory. Most of the stuff I was looking at was in the late 70's and early 80's, so maybe a lot of that fell out of vogue since then. Of course, the focus wasn't about core memory, but about advancing dis-logic within computers which we are addressing on a another thread. I will only add here that dis-logic is still unique to humans as it allows for a two state conclusion which may or may not be conflictual (i.e. - non-conflictuals being 0 and 0, or 1 and 1; conflictual states being 0 and 1, or 1 and 0). Interesting stuff.

2. As to the rule of exclusivity, it is most useful when dealing with knowns. However, in a case like M2C2 where there are still a lot of question marks, the rule of inclusivity (or the philosophy of the included middle) is often a better resource as it challenges one to consider alternatives which the rule of exclusivity cannot take into account (i.e. - it automatically excludes them before consideration).

3. We did not use the term linear computer at the time, but that sounds more like what I was referring to, and yes, no one back then had found an efficient medium. But don't get confused by the bit factor. At the CPU level, it is all 0's and 1's, but at the harddrive level it's -1, 0 and +1. It's this property which would have allowed dis-logic, via the "sub-conscious" harddrive, to be incorporated into computers that actually thought like people.

4. I will no longer drink soda or beer



The 2015 M2C2 (Global 9/11) Denialist Troll Awards

1st Place - Jep Branner - Our Stupid Administrator!
2nd Place - IBdaMann - Science IS cherry picking!
3rd Place - Into the Night - Mr. Nonsense numbers!
4th Place - Tim the plumber - The Drivel Queen!
17-10-2015 00:52
Into the Night
★★★★★
(7976)
trafn wrote:
@Into the Night - lots to catch up on:

1. My apologies. I haven't kept up on some of the latest in 3 state memory. Most of the stuff I was looking at was in the late 70's and early 80's, so maybe a lot of that fell out of vogue since then. Of course, the focus wasn't about core memory, but about advancing dis-logic within computers which we are addressing on a another thread. I will only add here that dis-logic is still unique to humans as it allows for a two state conclusion which may or may not be conflictual (i.e. - non-conflictuals being 0 and 0, or 1 and 1; conflictual states being 0 and 1, or 1 and 0). Interesting stuff.

The concepts of tri-state memory are as old as the TTL gate. It does not refer to the storage capability of memory itself, but as a coordination method for telegraphy. I have never heard of anyone developing memory storing three states, which is not surprising, since a third state would be utterly useless.

Humans are NOT dis-logic. Humans use a memory system that is far beyond the reach of any computer due to resolution. The individual nerve cells by the rate of firing of connecting cells. That cell then decides whether to fire or not to fire. It's just a bit. A cell does not 'part way' fire, it either fires or it doesn't. A nerve cell cannot be a zero and a one at the same time. Neither can any bit.

There is no such thing as a 'conflictual' or a 'non-conflictual' state. Two bits can be combined by either ANDing them, inclusive ORing them, or exclusively ORing them. The result is always a single bit.

Where is this other thread? It sounds like one of interest.

trafn wrote:
2. As to the rule of exclusivity, it is most useful when dealing with knowns.

It is a primary rule of logic. It applies to knowns and unknowns equally. It cannot be suspended...ever. It existed long before we got here, it will exist long after we are gone.
trafn wrote:
However, in a case like M2C2 where there are still a lot of question marks, the rule of inclusivity (or the philosophy of the included middle) is often a better resource as it challenges one to consider alternatives which the rule of exclusivity cannot take into account (i.e. - it automatically excludes them before consideration).

A false equivalence. Arguments of a subject are not bits. Any number of alternative views in such a debate is not dependent on bits in any way. However, no argument may violate the rule of exclusivity of logic. Any such argument is nonsensical and illogical.
trafn wrote:
3. We did not use the term linear computer at the time, but that sounds more like what I was referring to, and yes, no one back then had found an efficient medium. But don't get confused by the bit factor. At the CPU level, it is all 0's and 1's, but at the harddrive level it's -1, 0 and +1. It's this property which would have allowed dis-logic, via the "sub-conscious" harddrive, to be incorporated into computers that actually thought like people.

It makes no difference whether the bit is in the CPU, in core, or on the disk. Such a bit cannot exist, except in the linear computing sense I've already described. In that sense, it is no longer a single bit, but three bits, exclusive of each other (like tick marks on a ruler).
trafn wrote:
4. I will no longer drink soda or beer


Well, there goes that excuse for sequestering CO2.
17-10-2015 03:14
trafnProfile picture★★★☆☆
(779)
@Into the Night - yes it does get confusing by today's standards of our binary world. Remember, this was 30 years ago, long before the PC's hit the market. Bits on a harddrive are just areas of variable polarity. These old/ancient concepts were based upon using non-metalic mediums with variable states of electron excitement. Obviously, nothing came of this, but the theories were compelling in terms of the possibilities they raised (i.e. - dis-logic).
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