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Every thread turns into a discussion about the 2nd law of thermodynamics


Every thread turns into a discussion about the 2nd law of thermodynamics24-04-2017 18:56
spot
★★★★☆
(1065)
Notice how every thread turns into a discussion about the 2nd law of thermodynamics, I am certain that if people wished to discuss that they would be posting on a physics forum not a climate issues forum. Can we use this thread to discuss the 2nd law of thermodynamics and stop making every thread about it?


IBdaMann wrote:
"Air" is not a body in and of itself. Ergo it is not a blackbody.


Planck's law describes the spectral density of electromagnetic radiation emitted by a black body in thermal equilibrium at a given temperature T.
24-04-2017 19:17
Wake
★★★★★
(4031)
spot wrote:
Notice how every thread turns into a discussion about the 2nd law of thermodynamics, I am certain that if people wished to discuss that they would be posting on a physics forum not a climate issues forum. Can we use this thread to discuss the 2nd law of thermodynamics and stop making every thread about it?


If you had enough education in science you would know why these conversations always turn to the laws of thermodynamics and either the misunderstandings or misrepresentations of those laws.
24-04-2017 19:30
spot
★★★★☆
(1065)
Wake wrote:
spot wrote:
Notice how every thread turns into a discussion about the 2nd law of thermodynamics, I am certain that if people wished to discuss that they would be posting on a physics forum not a climate issues forum. Can we use this thread to discuss the 2nd law of thermodynamics and stop making every thread about it?


If you had enough education in science you would know why these conversations always turn to the laws of thermodynamics and either the misunderstandings or misrepresentations of those laws.


I am not a rocket scientist nor have managed a team of scientists for top secrete defense research but I have sufficient knowledge to know for example what a black body actually is, not a transparent gas for a start.


IBdaMann wrote:
"Air" is not a body in and of itself. Ergo it is not a blackbody.


Planck's law describes the spectral density of electromagnetic radiation emitted by a black body in thermal equilibrium at a given temperature T.
24-04-2017 21:25
Into the Night
★★★★★
(9224)
spot wrote:
Wake wrote:
spot wrote:
Notice how every thread turns into a discussion about the 2nd law of thermodynamics, I am certain that if people wished to discuss that they would be posting on a physics forum not a climate issues forum. Can we use this thread to discuss the 2nd law of thermodynamics and stop making every thread about it?


If you had enough education in science you would know why these conversations always turn to the laws of thermodynamics and either the misunderstandings or misrepresentations of those laws.


I am not a rocket scientist nor have managed a team of scientists for top secrete defense research but I have sufficient knowledge to know for example what a black body actually is, not a transparent gas for a start.


What happened to your discussion about thermodynamics?


The Parrot Killer
24-04-2017 21:27
spot
★★★★☆
(1065)
Into the Night wrote:
spot wrote:
Wake wrote:
spot wrote:
Notice how every thread turns into a discussion about the 2nd law of thermodynamics, I am certain that if people wished to discuss that they would be posting on a physics forum not a climate issues forum. Can we use this thread to discuss the 2nd law of thermodynamics and stop making every thread about it?


If you had enough education in science you would know why these conversations always turn to the laws of thermodynamics and either the misunderstandings or misrepresentations of those laws.


I am not a rocket scientist nor have managed a team of scientists for top secrete defense research but I have sufficient knowledge to know for example what a black body actually is, not a transparent gas for a start.


What happened to your discussion about thermodynamics?


You are the rocket scientist perhaps you can answer. Is a gas a blackbody?


IBdaMann wrote:
"Air" is not a body in and of itself. Ergo it is not a blackbody.


Planck's law describes the spectral density of electromagnetic radiation emitted by a black body in thermal equilibrium at a given temperature T.
Edited on 24-04-2017 21:40
24-04-2017 22:15
Wake
★★★★★
(4031)
spot wrote:
Wake wrote:
spot wrote:
Notice how every thread turns into a discussion about the 2nd law of thermodynamics, I am certain that if people wished to discuss that they would be posting on a physics forum not a climate issues forum. Can we use this thread to discuss the 2nd law of thermodynamics and stop making every thread about it?


If you had enough education in science you would know why these conversations always turn to the laws of thermodynamics and either the misunderstandings or misrepresentations of those laws.


I am not a rocket scientist nor have managed a team of scientists for top secrete defense research but I have sufficient knowledge to know for example what a black body actually is, not a transparent gas for a start.


Showing that you know nothing about it at all. Do you really think that you are adding anything to the conversation other than a heated attempt to mislead it?
24-04-2017 23:29
Into the Night
★★★★★
(9224)
spot wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
spot wrote:
Wake wrote:
spot wrote:
Notice how every thread turns into a discussion about the 2nd law of thermodynamics, I am certain that if people wished to discuss that they would be posting on a physics forum not a climate issues forum. Can we use this thread to discuss the 2nd law of thermodynamics and stop making every thread about it?


If you had enough education in science you would know why these conversations always turn to the laws of thermodynamics and either the misunderstandings or misrepresentations of those laws.


I am not a rocket scientist nor have managed a team of scientists for top secrete defense research but I have sufficient knowledge to know for example what a black body actually is, not a transparent gas for a start.


What happened to your discussion about thermodynamics?


You are the rocket scientist perhaps you can answer. Is a gas a blackbody?


Yes and no.

Gas as a whole is not a blackbody. It is a fluid and does not behave as a blackbody.

Gas as molecules is a blackbody (actually greybody). These can be considered 'rigid' particles. Their emission is according to the Stefan-Boltzmann law, and Planck's law, over the domain of the emission frequencies of the molecule.

Still wondering why you wanted to abandon your discussion of thermodynamics.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 24-04-2017 23:31
25-04-2017 04:06
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(4611)
spot wrote: Notice how every thread turns into a discussion about the 2nd law of thermodynamics,

Have you ever noticed how warmizombies simply NEED to violate thermodynamics in every thread? ... like their precious religion depends on it?

spot wrote: I am certain that if people wished to discuss that they would be posting on a physics forum not a climate issues forum.

You REALLY can't violate thermodynamics in a physics forum. They'll all catch the violations as quickly as I do ... and there won't be any debate over whether thermodynamics might not apply to Global Warming.

spot wrote: can we use this thread to discuss the 2nd law of thermodynamics and stop making every thread about it?

Good luck getting your warmizombie brethren to stop violating thermodynamics in every corner of the internet at every opportunity that presents itself.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
25-04-2017 18:38
Wake
★★★★★
(4031)
IBdaMann wrote:
spot wrote: Notice how every thread turns into a discussion about the 2nd law of thermodynamics,

Have you ever noticed how warmizombies simply NEED to violate thermodynamics in every thread? ... like their precious religion depends on it?

spot wrote: I am certain that if people wished to discuss that they would be posting on a physics forum not a climate issues forum.

You REALLY can't violate thermodynamics in a physics forum. They'll all catch the violations as quickly as I do ... and there won't be any debate over whether thermodynamics might not apply to Global Warming.

spot wrote: can we use this thread to discuss the 2nd law of thermodynamics and stop making every thread about it?

Good luck getting your warmizombie brethren to stop violating thermodynamics in every corner of the internet at every opportunity that presents itself.


This discussion has reduced itself to nothing more than petty bickering over unimportant issues.
25-04-2017 19:01
spot
★★★★☆
(1065)
IBdaMann wrote:
spot wrote: Notice how every thread turns into a discussion about the 2nd law of thermodynamics,

Have you ever noticed how warmizombies simply NEED to violate thermodynamics in every thread? ... like their precious religion depends on it?

spot wrote: I am certain that if people wished to discuss that they would be posting on a physics forum not a climate issues forum.

You REALLY can't violate thermodynamics in a physics forum. They'll all catch the violations as quickly as I do ... and there won't be any debate over whether thermodynamics might not apply to Global Warming.

spot wrote: can we use this thread to discuss the 2nd law of thermodynamics and stop making every thread about it?

Good luck getting your warmizombie brethren to stop violating thermodynamics in every corner of the internet at every opportunity that presents itself.


So there is a physics forum with moderation that does not regard you as a troll or a pest. Can you give us a link?


No, thought not.


IBdaMann wrote:
"Air" is not a body in and of itself. Ergo it is not a blackbody.


Planck's law describes the spectral density of electromagnetic radiation emitted by a black body in thermal equilibrium at a given temperature T.
25-04-2017 19:04
spot
★★★★☆
(1065)
Into the Night wrote:
spot wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
spot wrote:
Wake wrote:
spot wrote:
Notice how every thread turns into a discussion about the 2nd law of thermodynamics, I am certain that if people wished to discuss that they would be posting on a physics forum not a climate issues forum. Can we use this thread to discuss the 2nd law of thermodynamics and stop making every thread about it?


If you had enough education in science you would know why these conversations always turn to the laws of thermodynamics and either the misunderstandings or misrepresentations of those laws.


I am not a rocket scientist nor have managed a team of scientists for top secrete defense research but I have sufficient knowledge to know for example what a black body actually is, not a transparent gas for a start.


What happened to your discussion about thermodynamics?


You are the rocket scientist perhaps you can answer. Is a gas a blackbody?


Yes and no.

Gas as a whole is not a blackbody. It is a fluid and does not behave as a blackbody.

Gas as molecules is a blackbody (actually greybody). These can be considered 'rigid' particles. Their emission is according to the Stefan-Boltzmann law, and Planck's law, over the domain of the emission frequencies of the molecule.

Still wondering why you wanted to abandon your discussion of thermodynamics.


So let me get this straight.

The individual molecules are separate greybodies? What rocket-scientist school did you go to again?


IBdaMann wrote:
"Air" is not a body in and of itself. Ergo it is not a blackbody.


Planck's law describes the spectral density of electromagnetic radiation emitted by a black body in thermal equilibrium at a given temperature T.
26-04-2017 05:42
Frescomexico
★★☆☆☆
(179)
spot wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
spot wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
spot wrote:
Wake wrote:
spot wrote:
Notice how every thread turns into a discussion about the 2nd law of thermodynamics, I am certain that if people wished to discuss that they would be posting on a physics forum not a climate issues forum. Can we use this thread to discuss the 2nd law of thermodynamics and stop making every thread about it?


If you had enough education in science you would know why these conversations always turn to the laws of thermodynamics and either the misunderstandings or misrepresentations of those laws.


I am not a rocket scientist nor have managed a team of scientists for top secrete defense research but I have sufficient knowledge to know for example what a black body actually is, not a transparent gas for a start.


What happened to your discussion about thermodynamics?


You are the rocket scientist perhaps you can answer. Is a gas a blackbody?


Yes and no.

Gas as a whole is not a blackbody. It is a fluid and does not behave as a blackbody.

Gas as molecules is a blackbody (actually greybody). These can be considered 'rigid' particles. Their emission is according to the Stefan-Boltzmann law, and Planck's law, over the domain of the emission frequencies of the molecule.

Still wondering why you wanted to abandon your discussion of thermodynamics.


So let me get this straight.

The individual molecules are separate greybodies? What rocket-scientist school did you go to again?


When a contrarian cannot resort to logic or science it resorts to fabrication.

This thread began by trying to isolate the 2nd law of thermodynamics from other discussions. The logical next step is to go to its definition. In the definition, we find it is only applicable to black bodies. So here we are wondering whether a transparent gas is a black body. Perhaps we digress.
Edited on 26-04-2017 05:56
26-04-2017 08:47
Into the Night
★★★★★
(9224)
Frescomexico wrote:
spot wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
spot wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
spot wrote:
Wake wrote:
spot wrote:
Notice how every thread turns into a discussion about the 2nd law of thermodynamics, I am certain that if people wished to discuss that they would be posting on a physics forum not a climate issues forum. Can we use this thread to discuss the 2nd law of thermodynamics and stop making every thread about it?


If you had enough education in science you would know why these conversations always turn to the laws of thermodynamics and either the misunderstandings or misrepresentations of those laws.


I am not a rocket scientist nor have managed a team of scientists for top secrete defense research but I have sufficient knowledge to know for example what a black body actually is, not a transparent gas for a start.


What happened to your discussion about thermodynamics?


You are the rocket scientist perhaps you can answer. Is a gas a blackbody?


Yes and no.

Gas as a whole is not a blackbody. It is a fluid and does not behave as a blackbody.

Gas as molecules is a blackbody (actually greybody). These can be considered 'rigid' particles. Their emission is according to the Stefan-Boltzmann law, and Planck's law, over the domain of the emission frequencies of the molecule.

Still wondering why you wanted to abandon your discussion of thermodynamics.


So let me get this straight.

The individual molecules are separate greybodies? What rocket-scientist school did you go to again?


When a contrarian cannot resort to logic or science it resorts to fabrication.

This thread began by trying to isolate the 2nd law of thermodynamics from other discussions. The logical next step is to go to its definition. In the definition, we find it is only applicable to black bodies. So here we are wondering whether a transparent gas is a black body. Perhaps we digress.

So what has the 2nd law of thermodynamics got to do with black body radiation?

Spot is trying to do something weird with blackbody radiation and the Stefan-Boltzmann law or Planck's law.

Yes...individual molecules are separate greybodies. Despite how ridiculous you think that is, it nevertheless works, just like individual molecules have a temperature.


The Parrot Killer
26-04-2017 12:27
Frescomexico
★★☆☆☆
(179)
The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that "in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state."

With respect to the earth and its atmosphere, energy is entering the system from the sun and leaving the system towards outer space. So the 2nd law's applicability to the earth system is restricted.
26-04-2017 17:32
James_
★★★☆☆
(801)
Frescomexico wrote:
The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that "in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state."

With respect to the earth and its atmosphere, energy is entering the system from the sun and leaving the system towards outer space. So the 2nd law's applicability to the earth system is restricted.


Don,
Could you please quit making accurate observations please ? People aren't supposed to think that the Earth can be influenced by the solar system that it is a part of. After all this also includes Conservation of Momentum as well.

Linear momentum is also a conserved quantity, meaning that if a closed system is not affected by external forces, its total linear momentum cannot change.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum#Conservation

This kind of suggests that if the Earth's orbit around the Sun were to have a minimal decrease in it's orbit then it would become warmer as a result. And our solar systems axis of rotation changes it's orientation to a different north star about every 22,000 years.
26-04-2017 17:44
Wake
★★★★★
(4031)
Frescomexico wrote:
The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that "in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state."

With respect to the earth and its atmosphere, energy is entering the system from the sun and leaving the system towards outer space. So the 2nd law's applicability to the earth system is restricted.


Well, specifically: "In any cyclic process the entropy will either increase or remain the same." Entropy - energy not available to do work.

All this says is that in any energy exchange energy is lost.

Now - where is the cyclic process?
26-04-2017 21:24
Into the Night
★★★★★
(9224)
Frescomexico wrote:
The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that "in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state."

With respect to the earth and its atmosphere, energy is entering the system from the sun and leaving the system towards outer space. So the 2nd law's applicability to the earth system is restricted.


This is a problem of contextomy. You are changing context by describing two systems and using a false equivalence between them.

If you are ever in the position of 'if no energy enters or leaves the system' descriptions concerning the 2nd law, you are making this mistake. The 2nd law applies to any two or more regions of energy that are coupled together in some way. You don't discount them, and just discuss part of the system as a whole.

For Earth's temperature, that is the Sun-Earth-space system. Only the space in the vicinity of Earth need be discussed for the purposes of Earth's temperature.


The Parrot Killer
27-04-2017 06:09
Frescomexico
★★☆☆☆
(179)
Into the Night wrote:
Frescomexico wrote:
The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that "in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state."

With respect to the earth and its atmosphere, energy is entering the system from the sun and leaving the system towards outer space. So the 2nd law's applicability to the earth system is restricted.


This is a problem of contextomy. You are changing context by describing two systems and using a false equivalence between them.

If you are ever in the position of 'if no energy enters or leaves the system' descriptions concerning the 2nd law, you are making this mistake. The 2nd law applies to any two or more regions of energy that are coupled together in some way. You don't discount them, and just discuss part of the system as a whole.

For Earth's temperature, that is the Sun-Earth-space system. Only the space in the vicinity of Earth need be discussed for the purposes of Earth's temperature.


I stand corrected, but I'm not sure how. I am, indeed describing two systems, the earth and its atmosphere. However, I have not made them equivalent. I simply said that each had energy entering and leaving them.

The definition that I cited delt with systems where no energy enters or leaves. This, obviously does not apply to either the earth or its atmosphere. Another definition is "The Second Law of Thermodynamics is about the quality of energy. It states that as energy is transferred or transformed, more and more of it is wasted. The Second Law also states that there is a natural tendency of any isolated system to degenerate into a more disordered state."

The description that I cannot find is yours: "The 2nd law applies to any two or more regions of energy that are coupled together in some way". This is not to say that your description is not correct. When energy is transferred between two regions, the direction is toward greater entropy.

You say "If you are ever in the position of 'if no energy enters or leaves the system' descriptions concerning the 2nd law, you are making this mistake. [the mistake of contextomy]. There is no mistake being made. In that position, the description quoted above applies: "The Second Law also states that there is a natural tendency of any isolated system to degenerate into a more disordered state."




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