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microcosm26-04-2020 04:21
keepit
★★★★☆
(1628)
Are states a microcosm of the us?
2 months ago (approximately) it was thought that covid would just go away and the us didn't do a shut down. Look what happened then - 55,000 deaths and a million plus cases since then.
Is a state with 100 cases or 1000 cases any safer than the us as a whole was 2 months ago? Of course not. It's way too soon to reopen. Maybe montana and wyoming would be ok to open because every one is so spread out there. Maybe density should be taken into consideration but even those two sparsely populated states got some cases of covid19.
Edited on 26-04-2020 04:22
26-04-2020 05:12
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2199)
At the start, it was possible, that China had it contained, and under control, as they implied. They of course were lying, trying to cover it up. They didn't shut down air travel, for a month or two, after they realized it was a huge problem, and they couldn't contain it. It was middle of cold and flu season, lots of sick travelers, with no clue, they carried a new cold virus around the world. Containment was never a viable option, since there were literally thousands of points of origin, and no way to know who or where. Regardless of when we re-open, there will be some rebound, and we can expect more of the same in the Fall, with cold and flu season. Many of the people who would have caught a cold, and got over it, and immune, were spared this first wave. We can only hope that at least half the population already had it, this time through, and maybe they won't do the lockdown thing again.
26-04-2020 05:38
James___
★★★★★
(2987)
HarveyH55 wrote:
At the start, it was possible, that China had it contained, and under control, as they implied. They of course were lying, trying to cover it up. They didn't shut down air travel, for a month or two, after they realized it was a huge problem, and they couldn't contain it. It was middle of cold and flu season, lots of sick travelers, with no clue, they carried a new cold virus around the world. Containment was never a viable option, since there were literally thousands of points of origin, and no way to know who or where. Regardless of when we re-open, there will be some rebound, and we can expect more of the same in the Fall, with cold and flu season. Many of the people who would have caught a cold, and got over it, and immune, were spared this first wave. We can only hope that at least half the population already had it, this time through, and maybe they won't do the lockdown thing again.



China doesn't lie. Even though they are a communist government, we should accept everything they say. It is no different than President Trump or the Chinese Representative Senator McConnell saying my family will not become rich by transporting Chinese made goods.
It is not possible for Elaine Chao or her husband Senator McConnell t become richer by the family shipping business giving them millions of dollars. I mean giving leaders of the US government 10s of millions of dollars will not encourage them to influence either house of congress.
I mean who listens to the head of the Department of Transportation or the Senate Majority Leader?
Nobody but China and the Republican party.
26-04-2020 09:55
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7310)
keepit wrote: Are states a microcosm of the us?

No. The States are the component parts of the United States.

keepit wrote: 2 months ago (approximately) it was thought that covid would just go away and the us didn't do a shut down. Look what happened then - 55,000 deaths and a million plus cases since then.

Which is far less than the average 240,680 deaths per month in the US.

Things got much better in the US during this year's flu season. Refresh my memory, why are we doing this gestapo lockdown thing?


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
26-04-2020 20:50
keepit
★★★★☆
(1628)
More semantics arguments ibdm.
The reason for the lockdown is that covid19 is extremely contagious and deadly.
Where do you learn your stuff?
And where did you get your education?
26-04-2020 21:03
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2199)
keepit wrote:
More semantics arguments ibdm.
The reason for the lockdown is that covid19 is extremely contagious and deadly.
Where do you learn your stuff?
And where did you get your education?


Deadly? More than 90% of the confirmed cases, recover. Only 15-20%, even need to be hospitalized. It's not the 'deadly' bio weapon you try to imply. The numbers don't support the title you give it.
26-04-2020 21:25
keepit
★★★★☆
(1628)
Yes the do numbers do support what i said.. Covid 19 has 10 times the case fatality rate of the flu. Forget about the cold. I doubt it has a case fatality rate.
Where do you get your information? Your statements about the cold and the covid19 are totally disconnected from reality.
Edited on 26-04-2020 22:25
26-04-2020 21:43
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13024)
keepit wrote:
More semantics arguments ibdm.

Inversion fallacy. YOU brought up the semantics argument yourself.
keepit wrote:
The reason for the lockdown is that covid19 is extremely contagious and deadly.

WRONG. 0.00135% infection rate is not 'extremely contagious'. A 0.0000273% death rate is not significantly 'deadly'. Source: CDC
keepit wrote:
Where do you learn your stuff?

Irrelevant.
keepit wrote:
And where did you get your education?

Irrelevant.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Edited on 26-04-2020 21:53
26-04-2020 21:52
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13024)
keepit wrote:
Yes the do numbers do support what i said..

No, they support the opposite of what you said. Source: CDC
keepit wrote:
Covid 19 has 10 times the case fatality rate of the flu.

Covid 19 IS a flu. It is an extremely mild one as well. You are making up numbers again.
keepit wrote:
Forget about the cold.

No one mentioned it. Why are you?
keepit wrote:
I doubt it has a case fatality rate.

It does.
keepit wrote:
The contagiousness is way higher than the flu - there have been 1,000,000 cases in the us in the last 2 months.

Argument from randU. You are making up numbers again.
keepit wrote:
I don't know how many flu cases in the last 2 months but i would be it is way less.

Covid19 is a flu.
keepit wrote:
Where do you get your information?

RQAA.
keepit wrote:
Your statements about the cold and the covid19 are totally disconnected from reality.

Inversion fallacy. Buzzword fallacy.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
26-04-2020 21:56
keepit
★★★★☆
(1628)
itn,
I could be wrong but i don't know of any pathogen that has more than 10 times the case fatality rate of the flu when you consider large numbers of cases in the us. Ebola maybe, but ebola is way off the charts and doesn't occur in the us very much.
Do you? Put your credibility where your big mouth is.
Edited on 26-04-2020 22:37
27-04-2020 01:00
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13024)
keepit wrote:
itn,
I could be wrong but i don't know of any pathogen that has more than 10 times the case fatality rate of the flu when you consider large numbers of cases in the us.

Covid19 is a flu. It is a mild flu. Most flu causes hire infection and death rates. You are still quoting random numbers as 'data'. Mantra 25g.
keepit wrote:
Ebola maybe, but ebola is way off the charts and doesn't occur in the us very much.

Wandering off topic again. Mantra 16b.
keepit wrote:
Do you? Put your credibility where your big mouth is.

Mantra 29.

No argument presented. RQAA.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
27-04-2020 01:33
keepit
★★★★☆
(1628)
itn,
You say "Covid19 is a flu". At best that statement is just semantic arguing (meaningless).
Covid causes a 10x higher case fatality rate than the flu.
You've got no data to back u p your baloney.
27-04-2020 03:53
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7310)
keepit wrote: At best that statement is just semantic arguing (meaningless).

This is going to have to go on your player card.

Semantics is all about meaning ... which you therefore deem "meaningless."

Too funny.

At some point in your life you were bent over some furniture and reamed with the misinformation that the proper way to react when people put evidence contradictory to your delusions in front of your face is to quip "you're arguing semantics!"

One last time for your benefit: In an anonymous forum such as this, semantics are all we have. Everybody is arguing semantics because that is all anyone can do here. There are no other options.

Yes, you come across as an amazing idiot every time you dismiss an argument because it is arguing "semantics."

I'll let you know when your card has been updated.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
27-04-2020 05:11
keepit
★★★★☆
(1628)
More name calling ibd?
27-04-2020 11:15
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2199)
keepit wrote:
itn,
I could be wrong but i don't know of any pathogen that has more than 10 times the case fatality rate of the flu when you consider large numbers of cases in the us. Ebola maybe, but ebola is way off the charts and doesn't occur in the us very much.
Do you? Put your credibility where your big mouth is.


You don't know much about viruses, or pandemics. When a virus is new to the population, it spreads like a California wildfire, and kills a lot of people. 2-5 years later, it's normalized, and just another cold or flu virus, just like hundreds of others, that cause similar symptoms. They were all scary and deadly at first, no one was immune to them, they spread easy and freely, and find weaken people, who can't survive any more medical problems, like a respiratory infection.

With, or without a vaccine next year, there is still going to be a lot of deaths, but not as bad as this year. This thing was spreading during our normal cold and flu season, so no telling how many people treated as such, and gained immunity. Once a high percentage of the population is immune, the virus doesn't spread as quick or easily, the high-risk people less likely to be infected, the virus just becomes another addition to our cold and flu season.

The CDC web site, can help you figure it out. You can look up past pandemics. Then you can look at which strains are on the list, for the annual flu shots. They only pick 3-4 strains, out of hundreds, for the flu shot. The strains the were incredibly deadly, are always chosen, why?
27-04-2020 14:30
keepit
★★★★☆
(1628)
Harvey,
There are 2 problems here. There may not be a very good immunity developed to covid19. That could inhibit the effectiveness of a vaccine. And The damage to the lungs comes from both the virus itself and from the body's own immune response. This also could make a vaccine less effective unless the vaccine can stimulate an immune response which is strong but also doesn't stimulate the part of the immune response that attacks the lungs and potentially other parts of the body. It's complicated.












Harvey,
There are 2 problem
Edited on 27-04-2020 14:31
27-04-2020 14:50
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3323)
Into the Night wrote:A 0.0000273% death rate is not significantly 'deadly'. Source: CDC
You link doesn't seem to be working ITN. That number does not appear on the CDC website in reference to Covid19:
Search of CDC site on Google for 0.0000273

Also your logic means that hot dogs are more dangerous than machine guns since hot dogs kill more people. By completely ignoring context, time, geography, and if mitigating steps are employed and effective, you come to a hilariously stupid conclusion: dividing the effect by the entire population annually.

Covid-19 is the most deadly virus to hit the world in some time. If you'd like to actually debate that mantra boy let's go. But I expect you'll duck out as usual under your RQAA blanky.
27-04-2020 16:05
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7310)
tmiddles wrote: You link doesn't seem to be working ITN. That number does not appear on the CDC website in reference to Covid19:


Also your logic means that hot dogs are more dangerous than machine guns since hot dogs kill more people. By completely ignoring context, time, geography, and if mitigating steps are employed and effective, you come to a hilariously stupid conclusion: dividing the effect by the entire population annually.

You commitment to nothing ever being known is unstoppable, tmiddles.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
27-04-2020 18:27
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1103)
IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote: You link doesn't seem to be working ITN. That number does not appear on the CDC website in reference to Covid19:

Also your logic means that hot dogs are more dangerous than machine guns since hot dogs kill more people. By completely ignoring context, time, geography, and if mitigating steps are employed and effective, you come to a hilariously stupid conclusion: dividing the effect by the entire population annually.

You commitment to nothing ever being known is unstoppable, tmiddles.

.

I'd ask him if THAT is known.
27-04-2020 18:59
keepit
★★★★☆
(1628)
Harvey, Your post of 11:15 almost sounds like Wikipedia. Come on now Harv, have you been reading Wiki? Good post though, regardless of where you got the info.
It works for me.
Edited on 27-04-2020 18:59
27-04-2020 20:57
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2199)
keepit wrote:
Harvey,
There are 2 problems here. There may not be a very good immunity developed to covid19. That could inhibit the effectiveness of a vaccine. And The damage to the lungs comes from both the virus itself and from the body's own immune response. This also could make a vaccine less effective unless the vaccine can stimulate an immune response which is strong but also doesn't stimulate the part of the immune response that attacks the lungs and potentially other parts of the body. It's complicated.












Harvey,
There are 2 problem


How many cases of organ damage, out of the confirmed 3.3 million cases, worldwide? All I'm seeing, are a few random cases, which can be expected. Not sure how much follow up, results were give to these patients. It's really too early, to know if these patient had something else in common. It is possible to be infected by more than one virus at a time. The medical community always looks at the worst possible outcome, and pushes an abundance of caution. The media, and politics overhype such things. I just not seeing a lot of cases, or a lot of study yet. You also have to figure, that most of these were extreme cases, the vast majority aren't going to the doctor, or hospitals, just staying home.

There is a huge split on where we go from here, stay at home orders are expiring. Some are pushing to extend, others want to open up the economy. Those who want desperately, to keep it closed, until a vaccine, will dig up anything.
27-04-2020 21:07
keepit
★★★★☆
(1628)
It's starting to feel like a third world country around here. Maybe it's just me.
28-04-2020 00:50
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13024)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:A 0.0000273% death rate is not significantly 'deadly'. Source: CDC
You link doesn't seem to be working ITN. That number does not appear on the CDC website in reference to Covid19:
Search of CDC site on Google for 0.0000273

You have to do some math, twit. Of course, you deny math. Mantra 25a.
tmiddles wrote:
Also your logic means that hot dogs are more dangerous than machine guns since hot dogs kill more people.

Hot dogs ARE more dangerous than machine guns.
tmiddles wrote:
By completely ignoring context, time, geography, and if mitigating steps are employed and effective, you come to a hilariously stupid conclusion: dividing the effect by the entire population annually.

Void argument fallacy. You are denying context, you are denying time through the use of a base rate fallacy), geography makes no difference, and the 'mitigating steps' do not stop a virus. Mantra 11.

tmiddles wrote:
Covid-19 is the most deadly virus to hit the world in some time.

Not even close. Argument from randU fallacy. Mantra 25g.
tmiddles wrote:
If you'd like to actually debate that mantra boy let's go. But I expect you'll duck out as usual under your RQAA blanky.

You are not debating. Mantras 6...29...


No arguments presented. RQAA.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
28-04-2020 00:50
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13024)
keepit wrote:
It's starting to feel like a third world country around here. Maybe it's just me.


Enjoying life under a dictatorship?


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
28-04-2020 07:46
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3323)
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:That number does not appear on the CDC website

You have to do some math, ....
So what are you actually using from the CDC website? You misrepresented that it was their conclusion but it seems it's yours. Using what exactly from the CDC?

Into the Night wrote:
Hot dogs ARE more dangerous than machine guns.
Now THAT is consistent with everything else you say ITN.


Into the Night wrote:...geography makes no difference, and the 'mitigating steps' do not stop a virus.
So in late December someone in Brooklyn was just as likely to get Covid-19 as someone in Wuhan?
28-04-2020 17:47
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13024)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:That number does not appear on the CDC website

You have to do some math, ....
So what are you actually using from the CDC website?
You misrepresented that it was their conclusion but it seems it's yours. Using what exactly from the CDC?

RQAA.
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Hot dogs ARE more dangerous than machine guns.
Now THAT is consistent with everything else you say ITN.

You said it yourself. Hot dogs kill more people than machine guns. You wish to deny your own statement??
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:...geography makes no difference, and the 'mitigating steps' do not stop a virus.
So in late December someone in Brooklyn was just as likely to get Covid-19 as someone in Wuhan?

Yup.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
28-04-2020 17:51
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3323)
Into the Night wrote:
You said it yourself. Hot dogs kill more people than machine guns. You wish to deny your own statement??
Just a great example of how stupid you can be if you disregard context.
28-04-2020 18:55
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13024)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
You said it yourself. Hot dogs kill more people than machine guns. You wish to deny your own statement??
Just a great example of how stupid you can be if you disregard context.


There is no context except that statement by you. You are trying to manufacture a context where none other exists.

Mantra 11...21...

No argument presented.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Edited on 28-04-2020 18:56
28-04-2020 20:39
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3323)
Into the Night wrote:
There is no context ....
There is always context for everything and without exception.

A machine gun is always more dangerous than a hot dog. Even unloaded.

The only reason hot dogs kill more people is for the same reason they kill more people than nuclear weapons do.

Oh and nuclear weapons are ALSO more dangerous than hot dogs.
28-04-2020 23:32
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13024)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
There is no context ....
There is always context for everything and without exception.

A machine gun is always more dangerous than a hot dog. Even unloaded.

Nope. By your own admissions, hot dogs are definitely more dangerous.
tmiddles wrote:
The only reason hot dogs kill more people is for the same reason they kill more people than nuclear weapons do.

Hot dogs are not emitting lethal radioactivity.
tmiddles wrote:
Oh and nuclear weapons are ALSO more dangerous than hot dogs.

Nope. Hot dogs are still more dangerous. No one has used a nuclear weapon in 55 years.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
29-04-2020 00:07
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3323)
Into the Night wrote:Hot dogs are still more dangerous. No one has used a nuclear weapon in 55 years.
So ITN you are saying Hot Dogs are more dangerous than nuclear weapons?
29-04-2020 00:57
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7310)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:Hot dogs are still more dangerous. No one has used a nuclear weapon in 55 years.
So ITN you are saying Hot Dogs are more dangerous than nuclear weapons?


I haven't checked the stats. How many people have choked on nuclear weapons? What country has had the most hospitalizations per capita from overeating/binging nuclear weapons?


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
29-04-2020 03:14
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13024)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:Hot dogs are still more dangerous. No one has used a nuclear weapon in 55 years.
So ITN you are saying Hot Dogs are more dangerous than nuclear weapons?

RQAA


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
30-04-2020 00:07
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3323)
IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:Hot dogs are still more dangerous. No one has used a nuclear weapon in 55 years.
So ITN you are saying Hot Dogs are more dangerous than nuclear weapons?


I haven't checked the stats. How many people have choked on nuclear weapons? What country has had the most hospitalizations per capita from overeating/binging nuclear weapons?


.
So you are saying that, to your thinking, hot dogs are more dangerous than nuclear weapons?

Sounds like it. You are very fond of claiming that I misinterpret your meaning so clarify as needed.
30-04-2020 00:13
James___
★★★★★
(2987)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:Hot dogs are still more dangerous. No one has used a nuclear weapon in 55 years.
So ITN you are saying Hot Dogs are more dangerous than nuclear weapons?


I haven't checked the stats. How many people have choked on nuclear weapons? What country has had the most hospitalizations per capita from overeating/binging nuclear weapons?


.
So you are saying that, to your thinking, hot dogs are more dangerous than nuclear weapons?

Sounds like it. You are very fond of claiming that I misinterpret your meaning so clarify as needed.


You're both idiots.
Edited on 30-04-2020 00:16
30-04-2020 03:37
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13024)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:Hot dogs are still more dangerous. No one has used a nuclear weapon in 55 years.
So ITN you are saying Hot Dogs are more dangerous than nuclear weapons?


I haven't checked the stats. How many people have choked on nuclear weapons? What country has had the most hospitalizations per capita from overeating/binging nuclear weapons?


.
So you are saying that, to your thinking, hot dogs are more dangerous than nuclear weapons?

Sounds like it. You are very fond of claiming that I misinterpret your meaning so clarify as needed.

RQAA


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit




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