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greenhouses05-08-2021 08:50
duncan61
★★★★☆
(1350)
I have scored the pair of greenhouses I was after from bunnings and 2 desktop thermometers.I think for the first few days I am going to monitor the internal and external temperatures over different ambient temperatures and see if there is any corelation.At the moment there is one degree C. difference between outside and inside temperatures


duncan61
05-08-2021 15:54
James___
★★★★★
(4991)
duncan61 wrote:
I have scored the pair of greenhouses I was after from bunnings and 2 desktop thermometers.I think for the first few days I am going to monitor the internal and external temperatures over different ambient temperatures and see if there is any corelation.At the moment there is one degree C. difference between outside and inside temperatures



Some of what I am pursuing would change atmospheric chemistry. With that said, can you put some plants in one but not the other? Then you should observe different levels of CO2 because CO2 + H2O + h > CH2O and O2.
Because plants would be observing energy to convert CO2 and H2O into formaldehyde and the oxygen molecule, the temperature could be slightly lower.
Then remove the plants and see what the temperature is with a lower CO2 level. The lower CO2 level would mean that there is less water vapor and more oxygen in that greenhouse.
If you could hang something over the doors to the greenhouses then you could decrease the mixing with the outside air when you enter them. And if you feel like it, at some point you could place a cup of water in each greenhouse. This would increase humidity and with different CO2/O2 levels in both greenhouses, how does increased humidity influence their temperatures?
While something like this might take a couple of months to see if there is a trend, as you pointed out, inside the greenhouse is warmer. One of the things that I hope to demonstrate is that gravity influences the temperature in the troposphere, that's the part of the atmosphere we live in. Basically atmospheric gasses should be traveling at about 28,440 kph. The Earth rotates at about 1,600 kph. Coincidentally, the Earth has been slowing as well.
With what I mentioned about gasses, reactive gasses like O2 might help to increase atmospheric temperature.
Edited on 05-08-2021 16:08
05-08-2021 22:34
James___
★★★★★
(4991)
Plants absorb and not observe energy, what h (Planck's constant) represents. And such observations could show if increased CO2 or increased H2O levels increase the temperature difference between the inside and the outside of a greenhouse.
And the difference in O2 and CO2 levels can be considered as CO2 converts to O2 because of photosynthesis. And if the plants are removed, then the temperature difference between 2 greenhouses with different levels of CO2 could suggest what influences warming, gasses that are more reactive like O2 or gasses that are less reactive like CO2. And that's basically how a hypothesis is considered and how it can be tested. With the hypothesis, it would be considered as a null hypothesis; (in a statistical test) the hypothesis that there is no significant difference between specified populations, any observed difference being due to sampling or experimental error.
To show a difference would then nullify the hypothesis that different gasses do not influence the temperature in a given environment. And Duncan, I won't be surprised if more O2 has a greater difference than more CO2. Just my opinion.


Because plants need watering (water vapor is a greenhouse gas), burning candles in one greenhouse would increase the amount of CO2 levels while decreasing the amount of O2. Or maybe shake up a bottle of soda and then barely open the top so some of it leaks out. The CO2 in the soda is what makes it foam when shaken. A candle might be a simpler idea. Then the increase in CO2 would be relative to the decrease in O2.
Edited on 05-08-2021 22:41
06-08-2021 00:42
James___
★★★★★
(4991)
@Duncan, discharging CO2 into one greenhouse would show if as one person in this forum posted cools the atmosphere. Since greenhouses aren't "airtight" their atmospheric pressure will balance out. And with what I have posted, I have simplified a hypothesis and how to test it in the simplest way possible. Greater complexity does not allow for Occam's Razor which states the simpler the idea, the most likely it is correct.
06-08-2021 00:46
HarveyH55Profile picture★★★★★
(3614)
Good God... He never stated the size of the greenhouses, but your talking about quite an investment in instruments to measure a log all that data, even for very small ones... Formaldehyde is generally released during the rotting process. Most greenhouses are designed to be sealed air-tight, like a Norwegian Navy boat. It's not desired to stagnate the air inside, or for them to get extremely hot either. The intent, is to maintain a warm, consistent growing environment. The don't trap 'heat', they just keep what's already there from mixing with the colder, outdoors air, and blowing a away with the wind. They just slow the flow.
06-08-2021 01:18
James___
★★★★★
(4991)
HarveyH55 wrote:
Good God... He never stated the size of the greenhouses, but your talking about quite an investment in instruments to measure a log all that data, even for very small ones... Formaldehyde is generally released during the rotting process. Most greenhouses are designed to be sealed air-tight, like a Norwegian Navy boat. It's not desired to stagnate the air inside, or for them to get extremely hot either. The intent, is to maintain a warm, consistent growing environment. The don't trap 'heat', they just keep what's already there from mixing with the colder, outdoors air, and blowing a away with the wind. They just slow the flow.



Really? Injecting CO2 from a cartridge means what? 80 grams of CO2 costs US $8.50.https://www.amazon.com/Leland-Co2-Cartridges-10-Count/dp/B000I1WMXY/ref=asc_df_B000I1WMXY/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=193137569013&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12363856977488711970&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9014315&hvtargid=pla-306662694926&psc=1

Please quit watching your "surveillance video" of gals you pay to visit you. Kind of why they're naked, right?
Edited on 06-08-2021 01:19
06-08-2021 01:49
HarveyH55Profile picture★★★★★
(3614)
James___ wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
Good God... He never stated the size of the greenhouses, but your talking about quite an investment in instruments to measure a log all that data, even for very small ones... Formaldehyde is generally released during the rotting process. Most greenhouses are designed to be sealed air-tight, like a Norwegian Navy boat. It's not desired to stagnate the air inside, or for them to get extremely hot either. The intent, is to maintain a warm, consistent growing environment. The don't trap 'heat', they just keep what's already there from mixing with the colder, outdoors air, and blowing a away with the wind. They just slow the flow.



Really? Injecting CO2 from a cartridge means what? 80 grams of CO2 costs US $8.50.https://www.amazon.com/Leland-Co2-Cartridges-10-Count/dp/B000I1WMXY/ref=asc_df_B000I1WMXY/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=193137569013&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12363856977488711970&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9014315&hvtargid=pla-306662694926&psc=1

Please quit watching your "surveillance video" of gals you pay to visit you. Kind of why they're naked, right?


Be a better value to rent a tank either from welding , or restaurant supply... he'd need a lot better than Walmart grade test equipment, to get any usable data. Unless he want a lot of tolerance to play with, like the IPCC.

He could just place a jug of Kentucky corn whiskey in each greenhouse. And wait and see how long it takes his Norwegian neighbor to empty them...
06-08-2021 02:04
James___
★★★★★
(4991)
HarveyH55 wrote:
James___ wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
Good God... He never stated the size of the greenhouses, but your talking about quite an investment in instruments to measure a log all that data, even for very small ones... Formaldehyde is generally released during the rotting process. Most greenhouses are designed to be sealed air-tight, like a Norwegian Navy boat. It's not desired to stagnate the air inside, or for them to get extremely hot either. The intent, is to maintain a warm, consistent growing environment. The don't trap 'heat', they just keep what's already there from mixing with the colder, outdoors air, and blowing a away with the wind. They just slow the flow.



Really? Injecting CO2 from a cartridge means what? 80 grams of CO2 costs US $8.50.https://www.amazon.com/Leland-Co2-Cartridges-10-Count/dp/B000I1WMXY/ref=asc_df_B000I1WMXY/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=193137569013&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12363856977488711970&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9014315&hvtargid=pla-306662694926&psc=1

Please quit watching your "surveillance video" of gals you pay to visit you. Kind of why they're naked, right?


Be a better value to rent a tank either from welding , or restaurant supply... he'd need a lot better than Walmart grade test equipment, to get any usable data. Unless he want a lot of tolerance to play with, like the IPCC.

He could just place a jug of Kentucky corn whiskey in each greenhouse. And wait and see how long it takes his Norwegian neighbor to empty them...



Harvey, admit that you are a racist bastard. Both ITN and IBDM love you.
06-08-2021 03:27
duncan61
★★★★☆
(1350)
Its 7.8 C. in the little greenhouse and 7.3 C. on the table at 8.00am this morning so at this point the greenhouse is showing a warmer trend which we all kind of knew would happen.Today I will be picking up my table from work and placing both in a sunnier location.CO2 is at 627ppm on the table
06-08-2021 03:50
HarveyH55Profile picture★★★★★
(3614)
James___ wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
James___ wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
Good God... He never stated the size of the greenhouses, but your talking about quite an investment in instruments to measure a log all that data, even for very small ones... Formaldehyde is generally released during the rotting process. Most greenhouses are designed to be sealed air-tight, like a Norwegian Navy boat. It's not desired to stagnate the air inside, or for them to get extremely hot either. The intent, is to maintain a warm, consistent growing environment. The don't trap 'heat', they just keep what's already there from mixing with the colder, outdoors air, and blowing a away with the wind. They just slow the flow.



Really? Injecting CO2 from a cartridge means what? 80 grams of CO2 costs US $8.50.https://www.amazon.com/Leland-Co2-Cartridges-10-Count/dp/B000I1WMXY/ref=asc_df_B000I1WMXY/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=193137569013&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12363856977488711970&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9014315&hvtargid=pla-306662694926&psc=1

Please quit watching your "surveillance video" of gals you pay to visit you. Kind of why they're naked, right?


Be a better value to rent a tank either from welding , or restaurant supply... he'd need a lot better than Walmart grade test equipment, to get any usable data. Unless he want a lot of tolerance to play with, like the IPCC.

He could just place a jug of Kentucky corn whiskey in each greenhouse. And wait and see how long it takes his Norwegian neighbor to empty them...



Harvey, admit that you are a racist bastard. Both ITN and IBDM love you.


Racist? Bastard? Doubtful on both accusations. You seem to project your own limitations on others...
06-08-2021 03:52
duncan61
★★★★☆
(1350)
The sun just popped out from behind a cloud and both thermometers are at 9.6 and CO2 is at 487ppm.Its all swinging wildly so am not sure I am going to get any useable data.I might have to build a computer model to make my theories fit reality like the warmazombies

Edited on 06-08-2021 04:00
06-08-2021 04:57
James___
★★★★★
(4991)
duncan61 wrote:
The sun just popped out from behind a cloud and both thermometers are at 9.6 and CO2 is at 487ppm.Its all swinging wildly so am not sure I am going to get any useable data.I might have to build a computer model to make my theories fit reality like the warmazombies



If you know the volume of each greenhouse, injecting CO2 into one of them will show something different. Science is based on such basic observations.
06-08-2021 05:03
duncan61
★★★★☆
(1350)
At 10.00 am I have 16.4 C in the box and 14.4 C on the table.CO2 at 567ppm
06-08-2021 06:30
James___
★★★★★
(4991)
duncan61 wrote:
At 10.00 am I have 16.4 C in the box and 14.4 C on the table.CO2 at 567ppm


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIUWvvBbCaw
08-08-2021 05:14
duncan61
★★★★☆
(1350)
I have set up both greenhouses and put the thermometers in each and they are not varying by more than .1 and most of the time they are the same.I have fully charged my CO2 meter and because I purchased smaller greenhouses I will try raising the CO2 in the test box by breathing into the test model.I will try to get a doubling of what it is on the table and see what happens
08-08-2021 06:38
duncan61
★★★★☆
(1350)
Well that was easy.I blew in to the test box and the CO2 went over 3000ppm for absolutely no change in temperature inside the box.I will keep monitoring it over more time and in different circumstances
14-08-2021 05:31
duncan61
★★★★☆
(1350)
I am back from my roadtrip to Kalgoorlie and we are having calm sunny days for a while so I will do more testing over this weekend
14-08-2021 16:27
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(16050)
HarveyH55 wrote:
Good God... He never stated the size of the greenhouses, but your talking about quite an investment in instruments to measure a log all that data, even for very small ones... Formaldehyde is generally released during the rotting process. Most greenhouses are designed to be sealed air-tight, like a Norwegian Navy boat. It's not desired to stagnate the air inside, or for them to get extremely hot either. The intent, is to maintain a warm, consistent growing environment. The don't trap 'heat', they just keep what's already there from mixing with the colder, outdoors air, and blowing a away with the wind. They just slow the flow.


They don't slow the flow of heat. They reduce heat.

You cannot slow or trap heat.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
14-08-2021 23:29
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(9934)


Into the Night wrote:They don't slow the flow of heat. They reduce heat.

In almost all cases you would be right ... however convection just happens to be a flow of heat, i.e. the flow of thermal energy is itself flowing ... or more specifically the conduction itself is flowing ... which happens to be what greenhouses restrict, i.e. they restrict convection. Thus greenhouses actually restrict the flow of the flow of thermal energy by restricting the hot air from rising out of the greenhouse. The result is that the equilibrium temperature inside the greenhouse increases.

Of course, as you mention, there is still heat from the greenhouse. That cannot be stopped.

Into the Night wrote: You cannot slow or trap heat.

Correct. You can alter where heat occurs but you cannot prevent it from occurring.




A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
16-08-2021 06:33
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(16050)
IBdaMann wrote:


Into the Night wrote:They don't slow the flow of heat. They reduce heat.

In almost all cases you would be right ... however convection just happens to be a flow of heat, i.e. the flow of thermal energy is itself flowing ... or more specifically the conduction itself is flowing ... which happens to be what greenhouses restrict, i.e. they restrict convection.


By reducing convective heat to the outside, that is reducing heat.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan
16-08-2021 22:40
S@ve0ur3arth
☆☆☆☆☆
(24)
HarveyH55 wrote:
Good God... He never stated the size of the greenhouses, but your talking about quite an investment in instruments to measure a log all that data, even for very small ones... Formaldehyde is generally released during the rotting process. Most greenhouses are designed to be sealed air-tight, like a Norwegian Navy boat. It's not desired to stagnate the air inside, or for them to get extremely hot either. The intent, is to maintain a warm, consistent growing environment. The don't trap 'heat', they just keep what's already there from mixing with the colder, outdoors air, and blowing a away with the wind. They just slow the flow.

Yup, it is an undeniable fact that the vast majority of greenhouses are sealed air-tight.
16-08-2021 22:40
S@ve0ur3arth
☆☆☆☆☆
(24)
HarveyH55 wrote:
Good God... He never stated the size of the greenhouses, but your talking about quite an investment in instruments to measure a log all that data, even for very small ones... Formaldehyde is generally released during the rotting process. Most greenhouses are designed to be sealed air-tight, like a Norwegian Navy boat. It's not desired to stagnate the air inside, or for them to get extremely hot either. The intent, is to maintain a warm, consistent growing environment. The don't trap 'heat', they just keep what's already there from mixing with the colder, outdoors air, and blowing a away with the wind. They just slow the flow.

Yup, it is an undeniable fact that the vast majority of greenhouses are sealed air-tight.
17-08-2021 02:25
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(16050)
S@ve0ur3arth wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
Good God... He never stated the size of the greenhouses, but your talking about quite an investment in instruments to measure a log all that data, even for very small ones... Formaldehyde is generally released during the rotting process. Most greenhouses are designed to be sealed air-tight, like a Norwegian Navy boat. It's not desired to stagnate the air inside, or for them to get extremely hot either. The intent, is to maintain a warm, consistent growing environment. The don't trap 'heat', they just keep what's already there from mixing with the colder, outdoors air, and blowing a away with the wind. They just slow the flow.

Yup, it is an undeniable fact that the vast majority of greenhouses are sealed air-tight.


They aren't.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan




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