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GHG02-11-2019 00:33
keepit
★★★☆☆
(694)
Clouds are a GHG. I use clouds in this example because you can see clouds. There are several GHG's.
Notice that when there are clouds above overnight that the temp doesn't go down as much as when there is a clear night. This slowing of heat transfer is because of the GHG (clouds). Hopefully a person can believe their own senses.
02-11-2019 01:26
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1459)
keepit wrote:
Clouds are a GHG. I use clouds in this example because you can see clouds. There are several GHG's.
Notice that when there are clouds above overnight that the temp doesn't go down as much as when there is a clear night. This slowing of heat transfer is because of the GHG (clouds). Hopefully a person can believe their own senses.


That's really odd, I'm seeing something opposite happening right now. The sky is cloudy, probably no rain though, but very dense clouds. And the temperature has already dropped 4 degrees, in a little over an hour. It's about the same temperature now, as it was in this morning, when I went to work. Weather forecast's about another 10 degree drop by morning.

What we have, is a cold front moving through. Fortunately, just a small one. Are you telling me, that without the clouds, we'd have frost and frozen pipes, without the clouds?

How are yo determining the warming effect of clouds anyway? There are other factors effecting one's perception of night time temperature. You can take a temperature reading, remove the clouds, and measure the temperature again. Does the cloud density influence the warming effect? Here in Florida, there is a most definite cooling effect from daytime clouds, even with the high humidity.

The one element about GHG warming that is generally seldom discussed, is time. The sun is the energy source, which does the warming during the day. At night, the surface cools, as well as the clouds, and all the other GHGs. How long do GHGs actively warm the surface, like the sun during the day? Few seconds, minutes, hours? It's fairly certain that it's done, well before the sun rises in the morning. We tend to look at wind speed and direction in terms of a two dimensional map, which isn't true. Going back to your cloud example. You ever watch them? You can see some moving faster than others. You can see clouds moving in different directions from each other.
02-11-2019 01:34
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1384)
HarveyH55 wrote:
That's really odd, I'm seeing something opposite happening right now. The sky is cloudy, probably no rain though, but very dense clouds. And the temperature has already dropped 4 degrees,
At night Harvey
02-11-2019 01:53
keepit
★★★☆☆
(694)
Harvey,
I didn't say GHG's warm the atmosphere. You've been listening to Hannity or someone. GHG's hold the thermal energy in.
Edited on 02-11-2019 02:05
02-11-2019 02:01
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9806)
keepit wrote:
Clouds are a GHG.
Clouds aren't even a gas. They are liquid water.
keepit wrote:
I use clouds in this example because you can see clouds.
Because they are liquid water.
keepit wrote:
There are several GHG's.
None. No gas, vapor, or liquid can warm the Earth just by being there.
keepit wrote:
Notice that when there are clouds above overnight that the temp doesn't go down as much as when there is a clear night.
How do you know? You can't see what the temperature would have gone down to on the same night by moving the clouds away.
keepit wrote:
This slowing of heat transfer is because of the GHG (clouds).

Clouds do not slow heat. It is not possible to slow or trap heat.
keepit wrote:
Hopefully a person can believe their own senses.
All observations are subject to the problems of phenomenology.


The Parrot Killer
02-11-2019 02:02
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9806)
tmiddles wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
That's really odd, I'm seeing something opposite happening right now. The sky is cloudy, probably no rain though, but very dense clouds. And the temperature has already dropped 4 degrees,
At night Harvey


Makes no difference.


The Parrot Killer
02-11-2019 02:03
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9806)
keepit wrote:
Harvey,
I didn't GHG's warm the atmosphere. You've been listening to Hannity or someone. GHG's hold the thermal energy in.


It is not possible to trap thermal energy. There is always heat.
This isn't Hannity. It's the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics and the Stefan-Boltzmann law.


The Parrot Killer
02-11-2019 02:10
keepit
★★★☆☆
(694)
It's true that clouds are liquid water. I should have used the word water vapor.
It's all H2O. which has the ability to slow the transfer of IR from earth to outer space.
02-11-2019 02:24
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1459)
The air around us is in constant motion. The planet is in constant motion as well, rotates, and orbits the Sun. We don't get to press the <Pause> button, to take any measurements. You will note that the amount of 'global warming', on average, is only 1 degree Celsius, over the past 300 years. I'm seen ten times the cooling, just in a few hours, and expect to see maybe double that, in a single night. The cold front should be gone by morning, and we will get back up into the mid 80s by afternoon. The global warming, is just number manipulation, the results is just too small to compete with real time conditions. It's not a perfect world, even the most perfect calculations don't really apply. We just like to believe we have it all under control.
02-11-2019 02:45
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1384)
keepit wrote:
It's true that clouds are liquid water. I should have used the word water vapor.
No what you said is fine keepit. Vapor is a gas. There are three states for matter we're concerned with: Solid, Liquid and Gas.

Clouds are decidedly a gas and not a liquid.

HarveyH55 wrote:...It's not a perfect world, even the most perfect calculations don't really apply. ...
Yeah they do Harvey. We are astoundingly successful as a species with our calculations. They apply like gangbusters.

We accomplish a lot by not throwing up out hands and committing to the defeat of ignorance.

I know you're scared Global Warming might be real. I am too. But we shouldn't put our heads in the sand a say we can't know anything.


"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is ever valid for them
02-11-2019 15:55
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1459)
tmiddles wrote:
keepit wrote:
It's true that clouds are liquid water. I should have used the word water vapor.
No what you said is fine keepit. Vapor is a gas. There are three states for matter we're concerned with: Solid, Liquid and Gas.

Clouds are decidedly a gas and not a liquid.

HarveyH55 wrote:...It's not a perfect world, even the most perfect calculations don't really apply. ...
Yeah they do Harvey. We are astoundingly successful as a species with our calculations. They apply like gangbusters.

We accomplish a lot by not throwing up out hands and committing to the defeat of ignorance.

I know you're scared Global Warming might be real. I am too. But we shouldn't put our heads in the sand a say we can't know anything.


"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is ever valid for them


Scared of 1 degree Celsius? Hardly, I just don't buy the hype, or that man has anything to do with warming or cooling the planet. We survived as a species, by adapting to change, not fighting the changes. When it got cold, we found shelter, murdered furry animals, and wore their skins. We learned ways to make murdering animals safer, more efficient. We learned how to treat and preserve those skins, so they didn't rot and fall apart so quickly, get infested with bugs, or attract the attention of other animals looking for food as much. The climate changed, it got warmer, so we had other things to adapt to, and learn. We found a lot of safer, more productive ways to do things, better tools. One of those things, was that black goo burns really good, produces a lot of heat energy, for a good long time. We haven't found anything that works as well, or better yet.
03-11-2019 10:55
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1384)
HarveyH55 wrote:..We survived as a species, by adapting to change, not fighting the changes. When it got cold, we found shelter, ...

Well said. And our greatest achievements could not have been done without useful measurement, productive calculations and fruitful science and engineering in general.

We also have understood for thousands of years that managing our environment and our resources is key to our prosperity.

Here and there we got is way wrong and learned the hard way. Cut all the trees down on Easter island, dump our chamber pots into the street (germs you can't see?!? no way man, not buying the hype on that), and accidentally killing the last few of something delicious.

I think it's fair to see we have only just begun to burn oil if that's something we're going to keep doing. So this issue is worth studying.

So I just don't agree with your dismissing it all with:
HarveyH55 wrote:...It's not a perfect world, even the most perfect calculations don't really apply. ...

Calculations apply.

"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is ever valid for them
03-11-2019 15:58
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1459)
Math is a creation of man's thoughts. It's used to describe thoughts, ideas, observations, based what the individual believes to be true. Do you believe there people, who's thoughts are perfect, and their understanding of things complete, accurate, and true? Making mistakes, is part of the learning process, sometimes we get it wrong, and we figure out something better, which probably isn't going to be perfect in every way either, but it's better. Everybody sees things differently, but we can learn to change the way we look. The problem is that people are aware that perception is either voluntary or forced. Most people don't like to be forced into anything. We don't take to being controlled, or manipulated, pressured. Stress isn't good, and it forces us to make choices, to reduce stress. Those choice aren't always desirable, right, or good, but reduces the stress. The climate crisis is flawed, irrational, and not presented as objective science. It's being promote like a work of fiction, a movie about to be released. The villains in this fantasy, are really small, but are billed as capable of destroying the whole planet, in a very short amount of time, decades.

The ideal CO2 level is about double what we have now. We have never see the full potential of what plants and tree can do, on a full, healthy diet. I just trust in the planet, more than the imperfect thought of greedy men.
03-11-2019 20:30
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9806)
keepit wrote:
It's true that clouds are liquid water. I should have used the word water vapor.
It's all H2O. which has the ability to slow the transfer of IR from earth to outer space.


Water has no such magick capability. You cannot trap light.


The Parrot Killer
03-11-2019 20:38
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9806)
tmiddles wrote:
keepit wrote:
It's true that clouds are liquid water. I should have used the word water vapor.
No what you said is fine keepit.

No, it isn't. RDCF.
tmiddles wrote:
Vapor is a gas.

Vapor is not a gas.
tmiddles wrote:
There are three states for matter we're concerned with: Solid, Liquid and Gas.

A vapor is particulates of liquid or solids in a gas.
tmiddles wrote:
Clouds are decidedly a gas and not a liquid.

Clouds are liquid water (or solid water at altitude, such as cirrus clouds or if the air is cold enough).
tmiddles wrote:
[quote]HarveyH55 wrote:...It's not a perfect world, even the most perfect calculations don't really apply. ...
Yeah they do Harvey. We are astoundingly successful as a species with our calculations. They apply like gangbusters.
tmiddles wrote:
We accomplish a lot by not throwing up out hands and committing to the defeat of ignorance.

You also accomplish a lot by not throwing up your hands and claiming religion is science.
tmiddles wrote:
I know you're scared Global Warming might be real. I am too.

Define 'global warming'. It is not real until you at least define it.
tmiddles wrote:
But we shouldn't put our heads in the sand a say we can't know anything.

There are some things we can know, and there are some things we can't know. The only one saying 'we can't know anything' is you.


The Parrot Killer
03-11-2019 20:49
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9806)
tmiddles wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:..We survived as a species, by adapting to change, not fighting the changes. When it got cold, we found shelter, ...

Well said. And our greatest achievements could not have been done without useful measurement, productive calculations and fruitful science and engineering in general.

We didn't need to measure the temperature of the Earth to figure out building shelters. Indeed, shelters are not just to help keep people warm. In places such as Egypt, houses are not built to keep people warm (it's quite warm at night!). Why do you suppose they built all those building and structures in Egypt, if it was not to keep warm?
tmiddles wrote:
We also have understood for thousands of years that managing our environment and our resources is key to our prosperity.

No. Oligarchies or dictators 'managing resources' or 'managing environment' have brought untold misery and suffering. Both resources and environments are severely damaged under such regimes as well.
tmiddles wrote:
I think it's fair to see we have only just begun to burn oil if that's something we're going to keep doing. So this issue is worth studying.

People have been burning oil for literally thousands of years, dude.
tmiddles wrote:
So I just don't agree with your dismissing it all with:
HarveyH55 wrote:...It's not a perfect world, even the most perfect calculations don't really apply. ...

Calculations apply.

What calculation? To what? Void argument fallacy.


The Parrot Killer
04-11-2019 07:25
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1384)
HarveyH55 wrote:...Making mistakes, is part of the learning process, sometimes we get it wrong, and we figure out something better, which probably isn't going to be perfect in every way either, but it's better....We don't take to being controlled, or manipulated, pressured...
So yeah we will never do anything perfectly but we're really good at making things better. Humanity is extremely capable. As for the pressured/manipulated bit I would put "Lied to" at the top of the issue list here. Sadly it seems like most people agree with lying to "those idiots" that don't agree with them to trick them into submitting to a plan. The issue could be anything: Nuclear Power, Terrorism, CO2, Communism, you name it.

Into the Night wrote:
Vapor is not a gas.
In physics, a vapor is a substance in the gas phase
A normal and sane response to "It's A" is "No it's not A it's B" but you're just here to sabotage discussion.


"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is ever valid for them
04-11-2019 10:07
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1459)
tmiddles wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:...Making mistakes, is part of the learning process, sometimes we get it wrong, and we figure out something better, which probably isn't going to be perfect in every way either, but it's better....We don't take to being controlled, or manipulated, pressured...
So yeah we will never do anything perfectly but we're really good at making things better. Humanity is extremely capable. As for the pressured/manipulated bit I would put "Lied to" at the top of the issue list here. Sadly it seems like most people agree with lying to "those idiots" that don't agree with them to trick them into submitting to a plan. The issue could be anything: Nuclear Power, Terrorism, CO2, Communism, you name it.

Into the Night wrote:
Vapor is not a gas.
In physics, a vapor is a substance in the gas phase
A normal and sane response to "It's A" is "No it's not A it's B" but you're just here to sabotage discussion.


"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is ever valid for them


Most people avoid lying, as the truth will always come out, eventually. That's why climate change keeps growing in complexity, changing. Technically, it's plausible, but unlikely. Any obvious lies would have come out by now, and probably will be the case. There isn't many people taking the perceive threat serious enough to meet the goals. You'll find that most every thing done, is for political and economic reason, not for any actual belief. If their wasn't a lot of money up for grabs, there wouldn't be much interest at all. It's still be to be proven if it's a deliberate deception, or blindness. Some people believe in something so atrongly, they tend to not see anything else as possible.
04-11-2019 17:36
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9806)
tmiddles wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:...Making mistakes, is part of the learning process, sometimes we get it wrong, and we figure out something better, which probably isn't going to be perfect in every way either, but it's better....We don't take to being controlled, or manipulated, pressured...
So yeah we will never do anything perfectly but we're really good at making things better. Humanity is extremely capable. As for the pressured/manipulated bit I would put "Lied to" at the top of the issue list here. Sadly it seems like most people agree with lying to "those idiots" that don't agree with them to trick them into submitting to a plan. The issue could be anything: Nuclear Power, Terrorism, CO2, Communism, you name it.

Into the Night wrote:
Vapor is not a gas.
In physics, a vapor is a substance in the gas phase
A normal and sane response to "It's A" is "No it's not A it's B" but you're just here to sabotage discussion.


A vapor is a substance dissolved in a gas. It is not necessarily a gas itself.
It is YOU that is failing to have a discussion. You are just here preaching your religion.


The Parrot Killer
04-11-2019 17:37
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9806)
HarveyH55 wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:...Making mistakes, is part of the learning process, sometimes we get it wrong, and we figure out something better, which probably isn't going to be perfect in every way either, but it's better....We don't take to being controlled, or manipulated, pressured...
So yeah we will never do anything perfectly but we're really good at making things better. Humanity is extremely capable. As for the pressured/manipulated bit I would put "Lied to" at the top of the issue list here. Sadly it seems like most people agree with lying to "those idiots" that don't agree with them to trick them into submitting to a plan. The issue could be anything: Nuclear Power, Terrorism, CO2, Communism, you name it.

Into the Night wrote:
Vapor is not a gas.
In physics, a vapor is a substance in the gas phase
A normal and sane response to "It's A" is "No it's not A it's B" but you're just here to sabotage discussion.


"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is ever valid for them


Most people avoid lying, as the truth will always come out, eventually. That's why climate change keeps growing in complexity, changing. Technically, it's plausible, but unlikely. Any obvious lies would have come out by now, and probably will be the case. There isn't many people taking the perceive threat serious enough to meet the goals. You'll find that most every thing done, is for political and economic reason, not for any actual belief. If their wasn't a lot of money up for grabs, there wouldn't be much interest at all. It's still be to be proven if it's a deliberate deception, or blindness. Some people believe in something so atrongly, they tend to not see anything else as possible.

In other words, the truth keeps coming out.



The Parrot Killer
04-11-2019 17:48
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5011)
tmiddles wrote: So yeah we will never do anything perfectly but we're really good at making things better.

Are you including yourself in the "we"? What I know is that there are many who are really good at tearing down, corrupting, ruining, defacing, etc... and they are all on your side of the political fence. They are NOT any good at making things better. They destroy entire economies and entire countries. They unleash expansive misery. The world would be much better off without them.

tmiddles wrote: Humanity is extremely capable.

Some of us are, yes. Many of you are not.

Your post is a great example. Into the Night simply explained "vapor" and you rushed in to call him names, because your purpose is to disrupt conversations.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
05-11-2019 05:08
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1384)
IBdaMann wrote:Into the Night simply explained "vapor" and you rushed in to call him names,

Ah! My mistake. I failed to notice this:
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
There are three states for matter we're concerned with: Solid, Liquid and Gas.

A vapor is particulates of liquid or solids in a gas.

ITN did indeed say what it was before I accused him of not doing so.

Sounds like a reasonable description of the type of gas vapor is.

"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is ever valid for them




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