The USA electricity system - Hourly billing.?

Jakob wrote:
­

GasGuzzler wrote:
The issue is not the meters.

No obviously not for you since you have had intelligent electricity meters for decades like you wrote.

Jakob wrote:
­So why don't you just show me the page where I can see the hourly prices you have to pay today.?

Jakob wrote:
­The price in Denmark changes. Actually that is the point in hourly billing. Sometimes we can even earn money using electricity, because the price is negative.
­

GasGuzzler wrote:

Jakob wrote:
­

GasGuzzler wrote:

The issue is not the meters.

No obviously not for you since you have had intelligent electricity meters for decades like you wrote.

So why don't you just show me the page where I can see the hourly prices you have to pay today.?

The price in Denmark changes. Actually that is the point in hourly billing. Sometimes we can even earn money using electricity, because the price is negative.



­

You just don't want to talk about lack of electricity production. I wouldn't either if I were you. This is my REC prices. Dirt cheap compared to communist Denmark.

, the on-peak energy is billed at a rate of $0.16/kilowatt-hour (KWH); the first 750 KWHs of the off-peak energy is billed at $0.08/KWH and any off-peak usage over 750 KWH is billed at $0.0649/kWh

Jakob wrote:
­

Into the Night wrote:

Jakob wrote:
­There is no way that I can stand in your way.

But you sure want to, don't ya?

No, but USA is Denmark's closest allied, so it is on my mind that you make the right choices for a good and sustainable future.
­

IBdaMann wrote:

Jakob wrote:No, but USA is Denmark's closest allied, so it is on my mind that you make the right choices for a good and sustainable future.­

Then you should support drilling for petroleum and natural gas, earth's best renewable energy sources.

Jakob wrote:
­

Jakob wrote:
­
Here the consumers can see the raw hourly electricity prices in Denmark:
https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/Market-data1/Dayahead/Area-Prices/DK/Hourly/?view=table

DK1 is West-Denmark.
­­

Tonight the price is negative.

I love windmills and the open free market for electricity with hourly billing system.

­

Into the Night wrote:

Jakob wrote:
­

Jakob wrote:
­
Here the consumers can see the raw hourly electricity prices in Denmark:
https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/Market-data1/Dayahead/Area-Prices/DK/Hourly/?view=table

DK1 is West-Denmark.
­­

Tonight the price is negative.

I love windmills and the open free market for electricity with hourly billing system.

­

Denmark does not have an open free market for electricity.
The cost of producing electricity is never negative.

IBdaMann wrote:

Jakob wrote:And otherwise, I don't think you need to feel sorry for the fact that the unemployed can save a penny that the sandwich maid can't because she works.

This is wrong. The sandwich maid is adding value to society and should be rewarded, not penalized, for doing so. The unemployed who are not adding value should not be rewarded for their lack of value added.

GasGuzzler wrote:
I did know this sad bit of news. The world shut down for COVID, and governments, including ours, paid people to sit on their assets and produce nothing, while collecting help for their utility bills. Total bullshit.

That was a big part of the 1.4 trillion . It was not to prop up a business that would otherwise fail. Wind and solar, on the other hand, need to be propped up or they will fail. For what they produce, they are way too expensive.

...but this is all pretty stupid to waste time on when you still have not described in your own words how CO2 warms the earth. Are you capable of that?

The 2022 energy price crisis, brought about by Russia's invasion of Ukraine, has catapulted public financial support for fossil fuels to new levels. G20 governments were quick to cushion the effects of peaking fossil fuel prices and bolster energy supplies, providing a staggering USD 1.4 trillion in the form of subsidies, investments by state-owned enterprises (SOEs), and lending from public financial institutions (PFIs). While much of this was support for consumers, around one third (USD 440 billion) was driving investment in new fossil fuel production.

(USD 440 billion) was driving investment in new fossil fuel production.

Jakob wrote: I can only disagree.
If the unemployed stands up and washes his clothes in the middle of the night, then he is also working.

Jakob wrote: He also contributes to the electricity price being lower for others during prime time.

Jakob wrote: And if the shilling he saves is used for sandwiches, then the sandwich maiden also profits from him.

Jakob wrote: If you don't have an eye for such economic connections, it makes everyone poorer.

James_ wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

Jakob wrote:
­

Jakob wrote:
­
Here the consumers can see the raw hourly electricity prices in Denmark:
https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/Market-data1/Dayahead/Area-Prices/DK/Hourly/?view=table

DK1 is West-Denmark.
­­

Tonight the price is negative.

I love windmills and the open free market for electricity with hourly billing system.

­

Denmark does not have an open free market for electricity.
The cost of producing electricity is never negative.

One day electricity might become like the internet or cellular service.

James_ wrote:
A lot of them will use the same infrastructure

James_ wrote:
while offering different levels of service.

James_ wrote:
And this might be like choosing how your energy is generated if available.

Jakob wrote:
­

IBdaMann wrote:

Jakob wrote:And otherwise, I don't think you need to feel sorry for the fact that the unemployed can save a penny that the sandwich maid can't because she works.

This is wrong. The sandwich maid is adding value to society and should be rewarded, not penalized, for doing so. The unemployed who are not adding value should not be rewarded for their lack of value added.

I can only disagree.

Jakob wrote:
­If the unemployed stands up and washes his clothes in the middle of the night, then he is also working.

Jakob wrote:
­He also contributes to the electricity price being lower for others during prime time.

Jakob wrote:
­And if the shilling he saves is used for sandwiches,

Jakob wrote:
­then the sandwich maiden also profits from him.

Jakob wrote:
­If you don't have an eye for such economic connections, it makes everyone poorer.

Jakob wrote:
­Conclusion: You will all be more poor than you need to be, when you don't have an hourly billing system for electricity.

Jakob wrote:
­And then there were all the fact-denying parrot screams that no one should waste time on, and where did we then come from.?

Jakob wrote:
­
Oh yes, this:
*repetition removed*
­

Into the Night wrote:

Jakob wrote:
­And then there were all the fact-denying parrot screams that no one should waste time on, and where did we then come from.?

Learn what 'fact' means. YOU are the parrot. You cannot project YOUR problems on anybody else.

Jakob wrote:
­
Oh yes, this:
*repetition removed*
­

Mindless chanting gets you nowhere.

IBdaMann wrote:

Jakob wrote: I can only disagree.
If the unemployed stands up and washes his clothes in the middle of the night, then he is also working.

Incorrect. He is not adding value.

Jakob wrote:
­Parrot Behavior is typical that the parrot does not know who it is quoting or why. It just does it over and over without any deeper understanding beyond a hope of getting attention.
So I will calmly let the readers judge who is the parrot here.
­

Jakob wrote:
­

IBdaMann wrote:

Jakob wrote: I can only disagree.
If the unemployed stands up and washes his clothes in the middle of the night, then he is also working.

Incorrect. He is not adding value.

He works and adds value because he makes electricity cheaper for everyone.

Jakob wrote:
­But in a banana republic or a communist monthly billing system, his good behavior will not be rewarded with a penny.
­

HarveyH55 wrote:
Hourly billing is a scam. It gives the provider free-rein to charge anything, anytime. How many customers will get together month, and compare their bills, hour-by-hour? Lot a numbers to look at. And of course, it'll be hard to get a group together that have the same usage for a comparison. Basically anytime you turn on a light, could be consider for peak-rates. We all get a meter, which we can read for our selves every month. Which we can compare to the usage we are charge for. Hourly billing removes oversight. Basically reducing the customers to paying what's on the bill, with no operatunity to question or dispute.

Jakob wrote:
­HarveyH55

You have a point about checking the bill, it is complicated, but all data are logged, and I don't think they can cheat without being caught.

Jakob wrote:
­In Denmark, it is also a fact that almost no matter how little consideration you take of prime time and low prices, hourly billing is still cheaper than a fixed subscription.

Jakob wrote:
­When Russia invaded Ukraine, electricity prices skyrocketed,

Jakob wrote:
­and in that situation some people were happy that they had not chosen hourly billing. But it also happened that an electricity company ran away from the agreement and raised the price anyway.

Into the Night wrote:
Data is 'logged' only by the billing agency, which means the fox is guarding the henhouse.

Jakob wrote:
­

HarveyH55

You have a point about checking the bill, it is complicated, but all data are logged, and I don't think they can cheat without being caught.
In Denmark, it is also a fact that almost no matter how little consideration you take of prime time and low prices, hourly billing is still cheaper than a fixed subscription.
When Russia invaded Ukraine, electricity prices skyrocketed, and in that situation some people were happy that they had not chosen hourly billing. But it also happened that an electricity company ran away from the agreement and raised the price anyway.


­

Jakob wrote:
­

Into the Night wrote:
Data is 'logged' only by the billing agency, which means the fox is guarding the henhouse.

That sounds very Banana Republican.
So I guess that is another good reason for you to change the system, and make room for the open market with free competition and hourly billing.
­

HarveyH55 wrote:
The average consumer isn't going to catch them. A group neighbors aren't likely to get together every month and compare 24 hourly readings X 30 days = 720 usage/rate numbers, trying to find irregularities. How many are going to dispute a few dollars over maybe over-billed. But, a few dollars, from 10s of thousands of customers is good profit... If caught, they only have to offer refunds to those who can show how they were over-billed. Lot of work for the consumer, to maybe recover a few dollars/month. Even if 20% of their customers request refunds, they still made good money. Only way the electric companies get caught/harmed in the scheme, is if they get greedy.

Jakob wrote:
­

HarveyH55 wrote:
The average consumer isn't going to catch them. A group neighbors aren't likely to get together every month and compare 24 hourly readings X 30 days = 720 usage/rate numbers, trying to find irregularities. How many are going to dispute a few dollars over maybe over-billed. But, a few dollars, from 10s of thousands of customers is good profit... If caught, they only have to offer refunds to those who can show how they were over-billed. Lot of work for the consumer, to maybe recover a few dollars/month. Even if 20% of their customers request refunds, they still made good money. Only way the electric companies get caught/harmed in the scheme, is if they get greedy.

I don't know why you need a group of neighbors.

Jakob wrote:
If you distrust an electricity company, then you can simply complain to the authorities and/or switch to another one.?

Jakob wrote:
That is how the open market works in Denmark.

Jakob wrote:
And if it is the electricity meter you suspect then it is the grid company.

Jakob wrote:
­

HarveyH55 wrote:
The average consumer isn't going to catch them. A group neighbors aren't likely to get together every month and compare 24 hourly readings X 30 days = 720 usage/rate numbers, trying to find irregularities. How many are going to dispute a few dollars over maybe over-billed. But, a few dollars, from 10s of thousands of customers is good profit... If caught, they only have to offer refunds to those who can show how they were over-billed. Lot of work for the consumer, to maybe recover a few dollars/month. Even if 20% of their customers request refunds, they still made good money. Only way the electric companies get caught/harmed in the scheme, is if they get greedy.

I don't know why you need a group of neighbors.
If you distrust an electricity company, then you can simply complain to the authorities and/or switch to another one.?

That is how the open market works in Denmark.

And if it is the electricity meter you suspect then it is the grid company.



­

HarveyH55 wrote:
How else would you know your rate, is the same as others? What would you base a complaint on? You 'feel' you were charged too much? Never lived in a city were you had a choice of utility companies.

The Danish Supply Authority is behind Elpris.dk. The Danish Supply Authority is a public, independent authority which, among other things, monitors parts of the energy market.

Jakob wrote:
­

HarveyH55 wrote:
How else would you know your rate, is the same as others? What would you base a complaint on? You 'feel' you were charged too much? Never lived in a city were you had a choice of utility companies.

Isn't that something that you think should be changed.?

If there is only one power company and it is not even closely monitored by the authorities, then it must be a banana republic or fascism and not communism.

Jakob wrote:
­On this Danish page, if you enter your postcode (e.g. 7700), you can see the electricity companies competing for customers in this local area:

https://elpris.dk

https://elpris.dk/#/article/om_elpris

Google translation:

The Danish Supply Authority is behind Elpris.dk. The Danish Supply Authority is a public, independent authority which, among other things, monitors parts of the energy market.

In Denmark, it costs $22 to complain about a bill, and if the decision is upheld, you get the money back.
Loved and hated, it can probably be called a social democratic political system.
­