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Wind power is the earliest way to generate power, but there's a reason it stopped being used.


Wind power is the earliest way to generate power, but there's a reason it stopped being used.21-04-2019 17:30
Tai Hai Chen
★★★★☆
(1013)
As depicted in 10,000 BC, wind power has been used since at least 12,000 years ago. But why they stopped using it to power ships? Two words. Fossil fuel. Using wind power to generate electricity is a waste. That's why poor underdeveloped countries don't use wind turbines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVD97uwlS2U
Edited on 21-04-2019 18:06
21-04-2019 20:07
Into the Night
★★★★★
(7663)
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
As depicted in 10,000 BC, wind power has been used since at least 12,000 years ago. But why they stopped using it to power ships? Two words. Fossil fuel. Using wind power to generate electricity is a waste. That's why poor underdeveloped countries don't use wind turbines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVD97uwlS2U


Movies aren't a documentary, dude. They are fictional stories. Also, fossils don't burn. We don't use them for fuel.

Ships today still use sails. Personally I enjoy using a small sloop rigged boat on the waters around Seattle. Such recreational sailing boats are common. Sloop rigging allows you to handle the boat with only one or two men.

The boats depicted in the movie are lateen rigged, which first showed up in Egypt around 3000BC. These are also the first type of boat to use a sail. Such rigging isn't used much anymore because of the difficulty in tacking across the wind with them.

There are still some tall ships (the square rigged kind) sailing the seas. A brig known as the Lady Washington has appeared in several movies, including the Caribbean Pirate movies by Disney. She is a beautiful ship, and is currently based in Aberdeen, WA. The biggest problem with tall ships today is finding a crew that knows how to handle such a vessel. Most have to find and train new crews constantly.

A tall frigate or two are still sailing the seas as well. One is Danish, another was recently damaged by a storm and is being repaired.

Sails are slow, however. Using a square masted ship, you can sail the open sea, but it would take about a month or so to cross the Atlantic. Modern oil fueled ships can cross it in much less time and carry far more cargo doing it. Modern oil tankers are some of the largest ships ever built. All naval vessels are oil or nuclear fueled these days. A sailing ship is a sitting duck in naval warfare anymore.

There are few steam ships still plying the waters as well. These tend to run in rivers or lakes and are fueled by wood, coal, or oil.

You will find wind turbines used in just about every nation, rich or poor. Most are used to pump water.


The Parrot Killer
22-04-2019 22:18
Wake
★★★★★
(4021)
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
As depicted in 10,000 BC, wind power has been used since at least 12,000 years ago. But why they stopped using it to power ships? Two words. Fossil fuel. Using wind power to generate electricity is a waste. That's why poor underdeveloped countries don't use wind turbines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVD97uwlS2U


Wind is generated by atmospheric pressure differentials that are begot by the solar emissions. This is an EXTREMELY inefficient process. It takes a hell of a lot of solar emissions to make any significant wind.

The most efficient windmills, in the perfect windspeed, for their specific blade designs, is 59% or so. On the average you can say that in significant wind you can get about 50% efficiency.

Winds within the power generation range do not occur very often. During the intervals in order to sync the windmill's blade speed to the power line frequency you have to expend electrical power to drive the blades.

If you attempt to save this power by bringing the windmills to a complete stop they are so large that to get them up to speed before engaging them in a good wind condition uses more energy than doing the alternative.

Now you have another problem: Cobalt and Lithium are not particularly rare but they ARE rare in mine-able quantities. These are normally obtained with EXTREMELY large open pit mines. The mining and separation process is an extremely expensive and environmentally un-friendly process. Because wind and solar energy are so infrequent you must use battery storage to save the energy when it is generated to use at other times.

https://us-east-1.tchyn.io/snopes-production/uploads/2016/06/escondida-mine-photo.jpg

There are LARGE trucks moving around that open pit mine. See if you can identify them.

The bottom line is that it costs more in energy to build these "renewable" energy sources, install them and maintain them then they will make in their lifetimes.
23-04-2019 00:09
Into the Night
★★★★★
(7663)
Wake wrote:
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
As depicted in 10,000 BC, wind power has been used since at least 12,000 years ago. But why they stopped using it to power ships? Two words. Fossil fuel. Using wind power to generate electricity is a waste. That's why poor underdeveloped countries don't use wind turbines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVD97uwlS2U


Wind is generated by atmospheric pressure differentials that are begot by the solar emissions. This is an EXTREMELY inefficient process. It takes a hell of a lot of solar emissions to make any significant wind.

Do you know what convection is, Wake? A fairly small amount of solar activity will make a hurricane or tornado.
Wake wrote:
The most efficient windmills, in the perfect windspeed, for their specific blade designs, is 59% or so. On the average you can say that in significant wind you can get about 50% efficiency.

There is no 'perfect' windspeed of any windmill. So long as the propeller blades aren't stalled, they are producing power for the wind produced.
Wake wrote:
Winds within the power generation range do not occur very often. During the intervals in order to sync the windmill's blade speed to the power line frequency you have to expend electrical power to drive the blades.

Windmills are synced to the power line that way, Wake. They use inverters that do that job for them electronically.
Wake wrote:
If you attempt to save this power by bringing the windmills to a complete stop they are so large that to get them up to speed before engaging them in a good wind condition uses more energy than doing the alternative.

No, they don't, Wake. Else there is no reason to even build such a machine. Electric start windmills use electricity to simply overcome starting friction. The electric power cuts out pretty fast on these.
Wake wrote:
Now you have another problem: Cobalt and Lithium are not particularly rare but they ARE rare in mine-able quantities.

Lithium is common, Wake.
Wake wrote:
These are normally obtained with EXTREMELY large open pit mines.

Most open pit mines are pretty large, Wake. They mine more than just lithium from them as well.
Wake wrote:
The mining and separation process is an extremely expensive and environmentally un-friendly process.

Mine tailings are just sand and clay. There is nothing toxic about them. You can even plant stuff on them.
Wake wrote:
Because wind and solar energy are so infrequent you must use battery storage to save the energy when it is generated to use at other times.

Ballasting may be through batteries, pumping water, pumping air, or any of a number of methods. Batteries are the most convenient for small systems such as you find around a home installation.
Wake wrote:
There are LARGE trucks moving around that open pit mine. See if you can identify them.

Not unusual for any open pit mine. Big deal.
Wake wrote:
The bottom line is that it costs more in energy to build these "renewable" energy sources, install them and maintain them then they will make in their lifetimes.

No, it doesn't, Wake. There is a profit to making lithium oxide batteries. As long as the mine produces material that can sell for greater than the cost of obtaining it, the mine will continue to operate. Same with the smelters and the battery manufacturers.

Most wind generators are privately installed and paid for. These are the innocuous 'farm turbines' that you see in many places. The new electric wind generators are rather costly to produce and maintain. These are the subsidized wind powered generators. They produce very little power for the real estate consumed. They can be quite dangerous too.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 23-04-2019 00:09
25-04-2019 03:09
dehammer
★★★☆☆
(424)
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
As depicted in 10,000 BC, wind power has been used since at least 12,000 years ago. But why they stopped using it to power ships? Two words. Fossil fuel. Using wind power to generate electricity is a waste. That's why poor underdeveloped countries don't use wind turbines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVD97uwlS2U
I would like to make a corrected time line.
The first power source was solar via burning plants. They stopped using this because it wasn't very efficient.
The next was wind, but again it was not very efficient.
Next came gravity. In the early days it was only useable if you were in the right place.
Then came coal. Not that efficient because of the difficulty in handling.
Then came gas.
Then dams were built, but again gravity could only be used where it was in the right conditions for the dams.
After the push for co2 control, people went back to wind, but it isn't stable. They went back to solar, but after millions of dollars spent on it, its still not that efficient.
(note, yes I left our fission, not quite sure where to put it. Fusion is not ready.)

Perhaps its time for a return to gravity again but this time use our technology to make it better.
There is a 40 year old patent (no longer protected), that would offer a solution to co2 emissions if they are truly a threat.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4284899

Why is no one interested in this?
25-04-2019 03:20
dehammer
★★★☆☆
(424)
Into the Night wrote:
[quote]Wake wrote:
[quote]Tai Hai Chen wrote:
[quote]
There is no 'perfect' windspeed of any windmill. So long as the propeller blades aren't stalled, they are producing power for the wind produced.

The truth is that there is a perfect windspeed for a specific windmill. This is due to the generator. It has to spend at a specific rate to produce the power that can be sent to the lines. IF the wind goes too slow they cut out the generator, and allow the windmill to spin in a maneuver they call "windmilling" (who'd of though lol)

IF the wind is too fast, they have to cut out the generator and "feather" the windmill to prevent it from damaging the system. What this does is turn the blade to the wind to reduce the surface. Newer system have a wider range but none yet can do all windspeeds.
25-04-2019 17:39
Into the Night
★★★★★
(7663)
dehammer wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
[quote]Wake wrote:
[quote]Tai Hai Chen wrote:
[quote]
There is no 'perfect' windspeed of any windmill. So long as the propeller blades aren't stalled, they are producing power for the wind produced.

The truth is that there is a perfect windspeed for a specific windmill. This is due to the generator. It has to spend at a specific rate to produce the power that can be sent to the lines. IF the wind goes too slow they cut out the generator, and allow the windmill to spin in a maneuver they call "windmilling" (who'd of though lol)

IF the wind is too fast, they have to cut out the generator and "feather" the windmill to prevent it from damaging the system. What this does is turn the blade to the wind to reduce the surface. Newer system have a wider range but none yet can do all windspeeds.


You are discussing a range of usable windspeeds, not a perfect windspeed.


The Parrot Killer
25-04-2019 22:19
dehammer
★★★☆☆
(424)
You stated that as long as the blades were spinning it would produce electricity. That is not true. The truth is there is indeed a range it will work and a large range on both sides of that that is not useable.
25-04-2019 23:35
Into the Night
★★★★★
(7663)
dehammer wrote:
You stated that as long as the blades were spinning it would produce electricity.

Never said any such thing. It is easy to disconnect the generator and allow blades to spin.
dehammer wrote:
That is not true.

Never said it was.
dehammer wrote:
The truth is there is indeed a range it will work and a large range on both sides of that that is not useable.

There is perfect windspeed for any windmill. You are still trying to conflate the word 'range' with a 'perfect' single value.


The Parrot Killer
26-04-2019 00:09
dehammer
★★★☆☆
(424)
Into the Night wrote:
dehammer wrote:
You stated that as long as the blades were spinning it would produce electricity.

Never said any such thing..

Here is what I was responding to.
Wake wrote:
So long as the propeller blades aren't stalled, they are producing power for the wind produced.
If I was pointing to the wrong person, sorry, but I'm new to this forum and don't get everything right yet.
Edited on 26-04-2019 00:10
26-04-2019 01:01
Wake
★★★★★
(4021)
dehammer wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
[quote]Wake wrote:
[quote]Tai Hai Chen wrote:
[quote]
There is no 'perfect' windspeed of any windmill. So long as the propeller blades aren't stalled, they are producing power for the wind produced.

The truth is that there is a perfect windspeed for a specific windmill. This is due to the generator. It has to spend at a specific rate to produce the power that can be sent to the lines. IF the wind goes too slow they cut out the generator, and allow the windmill to spin in a maneuver they call "windmilling" (who'd of though lol)

IF the wind is too fast, they have to cut out the generator and "feather" the windmill to prevent it from damaging the system. What this does is turn the blade to the wind to reduce the surface. Newer system have a wider range but none yet can do all windspeeds.


You're wasting your time talking to that moron. He is completely unaware that any specific aerodynamic shape has a wind speed at which it is most efficient. And that is the speed at which they are geared to deliver power at the correct frequency. Then in order to control the speed they put more and more electrical load on it to maintain it at the 60 hz correct speed.

It is all quite simple but not nearly as simple as Nightmare.
26-04-2019 02:43
Into the Night
★★★★★
(7663)
dehammer wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
dehammer wrote:
You stated that as long as the blades were spinning it would produce electricity.

Never said any such thing..

Here is what I was responding to.
Wake wrote:
So long as the propeller blades aren't stalled, they are producing power for the wind produced.
If I was pointing to the wrong person, sorry, but I'm new to this forum and don't get everything right yet.

No problem. I already pointed out Wake's mistake.


The Parrot Killer
26-04-2019 02:48
Into the Night
★★★★★
(7663)
Wake wrote:
dehammer wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
[quote]Wake wrote:
[quote]Tai Hai Chen wrote:
[quote]
There is no 'perfect' windspeed of any windmill. So long as the propeller blades aren't stalled, they are producing power for the wind produced.

The truth is that there is a perfect windspeed for a specific windmill. This is due to the generator. It has to spend at a specific rate to produce the power that can be sent to the lines. IF the wind goes too slow they cut out the generator, and allow the windmill to spin in a maneuver they call "windmilling" (who'd of though lol)

IF the wind is too fast, they have to cut out the generator and "feather" the windmill to prevent it from damaging the system. What this does is turn the blade to the wind to reduce the surface. Newer system have a wider range but none yet can do all windspeeds.


You're wasting your time talking to that moron. He is completely unaware that any specific aerodynamic shape has a wind speed at which it is most efficient.

WRONG. Any aerodynamic shape behaves the same way regardless of air speed, so long as the flow is subsonic. At supersonic flows, behavior changes, but is again the same. Behavior can radically alter when part of the flow is supersonic and part is subsonic. All wind generators operate at subsonic air speeds.
Wake wrote:
And that is the speed at which they are geared to deliver power at the correct frequency.

They use inverters, Wake. It doesn't matter how fast the generator turns. Inverters are far easier to match line phase.
Wake wrote:
Then in order to control the speed they put more and more electrical load on it to maintain it at the 60 hz correct speed. ...deleted insult...

It doesn't matter what the generator speed is, Wake. That doesn't determine system output frequency or phase.


The Parrot Killer




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