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19-05-2020 10:30
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2547)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote:Ah the grand conspiracy theory without a single whistle blower, shred of evidence or coherent motive.

Aaaah, the typical denial of politics.

There have been plenty of whistle-blowers.
Really? Such as?

HarveyH55 wrote:
Cold and flu viruses don't actually kill anyone, is alway complications, from the immune response or treatment.
Also true of bullets. It's the blood loss generally.

I guess a lot of people REALLY die of blood loss and people claim it's bullets.

IBdaMann wrote:The coronaflu coincided exactly with the flu season.
Nope.
Covid death spike in NY.
Flu season in New York (2010-2011):

Check those dates IBD. Glad I could help disabuse you of your error.

IBdaMann wrote:All the numbers and statistics are dishonest fabrications
How's the search for that whistleblower coming along IBD?


I don't know why you obsess over NYC, it certainly doesn't represent the entire country, maybe California, or Norway...

Anyway, did you bother to read the footnotes, under the first graph? The second on, is pretty much as posted earlier, where any death, that had any possible relation to Covid-19, ist listed as Covid-19 death.

Technically, all deaths are due to cardiac arrest, but that's overly broad, and not very informative. Obvious, since the heart stops beat, when people die.
19-05-2020 11:06
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3377)
GasGuzzler wrote:
Quote from my doctor.
"I wish the president would just speak his mind like he used to.This is ridiculous! Can we please go back to work already?"
Yet your doctor isn't willing to speak his mind? Did he whisper this to you with wild and fearful eyes?

HarveyH55 wrote:...did you bother to read the footnotes, under the first graph? The second on, is pretty much as posted earlier, where any death, that had any possible relation to Covid-19, ....

Here are the guidelines from the CDC for you Harvey as it is an interesting question:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/icd/COVID-19-guidelines-final.pdf

"c) Acute respiratory illness due to COVID-19
(i) Pneumonia
For a pneumonia case confirmed as due to the 2019 novel coronavirus (COVID-19),
assign codes U07.1, COVID-19, ..."

So the code is "U07.1" for respritory distress death that the doctor actually think is cause by Covid-19 in a patient that has the virus.

You can see the death count for "U07.1" here:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm

The leading causes of death in the country are heart disease and cancer. So no, people who die from heart attacks or cancer, even if they do test positive for Covid-19, would not get code "U07.1" for respritory distress death.

The US total for COVID-19 "U07.1" respritory distress deaths specifically is 62,515. In New York it is 15,757. That is 70% of the 22,619 that is reported.
19-05-2020 14:41
DRKTS
★★☆☆☆
(304)
GasGuzzler wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:...talk to any doctors lately? Any one of them that's honest will tell you ...
Hey that's a great lead-in to a citation!

So? What do we have from doctors you'd like to share?

As of 2016, there were over 950,000 practicing physicians in the United States.

Also you've got retired doctors, or retiring doctors with nothing to lose.

So I'm sure we can get the honest scoop.

Quote from lifelong friend who's been a VA nurse for a decade.
"Masks are stupid! Borderline worthless. The media has made the public fearful, therefore easier to manipulate".

Quote from a family friend who is a very respected periodontist.
"The Corona virus is nothing to worry about if you are otherwise healthy. Your odds of dying from this are astronomically low unless you have underlying conditions. If it was Ebola I'd gladly stay in my home."

Quote from my wife's doctor.
"I'm nearly certain you had covid in early January."

Quote from my daughter's doctor(North Dakota)
"I think you had covid in December. I could do an antibodies test but that could open up an ethics can of worms."

Quote from my doctor.
"I wish the president would just speak his mind like he used to.This is ridiculous! Can we please go back to work already?"

Obviously these are all personal and unverifiable. They mean nothing here, I get it. But you asked and these are the conversations I have had.


My health care provider (8 doctors): All the doctors are sheltering at home and only doing zoom consultations or telephone consultations. If they think the problem is serious they will refer you to the local hospital. Same for my wife's doctor.
19-05-2020 16:12
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1838)
They are afraid of liability lawsuits. If they don't follow government guidelines the could be held liable for your stupidity.
19-05-2020 16:22
DRKTS
★★☆☆☆
(304)
GasGuzzler wrote:
They are afraid of liability lawsuits. If they don't follow government guidelines the could be held liable for your stupidity.


That could be true anytime.
19-05-2020 16:33
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7516)
DRKTS wrote: My health care provider (8 doctors): All the doctors are sheltering at home and only doing zoom consultations or telephone consultations.

Because they will get fired if they don't.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
19-05-2020 16:52
DRKTS
★★☆☆☆
(304)
IBdaMann wrote:
DRKTS wrote: My health care provider (8 doctors): All the doctors are sheltering at home and only doing zoom consultations or telephone consultations.

Because they will get fired if they don't.


.


And you base that on what evidence?

Making stuff up is not a valid counter argument
19-05-2020 17:28
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1838)
DRKTS wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
DRKTS wrote: My health care provider (8 doctors): All the doctors are sheltering at home and only doing zoom consultations or telephone consultations.

Because they will get fired if they don't.


.


And you base that on what evidence?

Making stuff up is not a valid counter argument


Did you ever think that maybe Health Care Providers are making decisions based solely on public opinion?

A couple I talked with said they are not willing to risk their practice in a bad PR move by taking a stand.

We all know Michael Jordan was a Democrat, but he didn't go off on politics. He was smart enough to know that Republicans bought the Air Jordan products too.


All the time the base and surface are at equal temperature as the equilibrium graduates to establish the temperature development--Pete Rogers
Edited on 19-05-2020 18:01
19-05-2020 19:32
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1239)
IBdaMann wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if the actual number of COVID-19-caused deaths is a big fat ZERO. Nobody can produce a single verified one and I can't even find anyone who has the coronavirus, although I acknowledge that those exist.

.

I've so far personally known two people who have contracted the virus (my cousin and her husband). She is a nurse, and he got it from her. They are both doing just fine.

I haven't managed to knowingly contract it yet, and I take it that you haven't either, given your best efforts to do so.
19-05-2020 20:29
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2547)
DRKTS wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:...talk to any doctors lately? Any one of them that's honest will tell you ...
Hey that's a great lead-in to a citation!

So? What do we have from doctors you'd like to share?

As of 2016, there were over 950,000 practicing physicians in the United States.

Also you've got retired doctors, or retiring doctors with nothing to lose.

So I'm sure we can get the honest scoop.

Quote from lifelong friend who's been a VA nurse for a decade.
"Masks are stupid! Borderline worthless. The media has made the public fearful, therefore easier to manipulate".

Quote from a family friend who is a very respected periodontist.
"The Corona virus is nothing to worry about if you are otherwise healthy. Your odds of dying from this are astronomically low unless you have underlying conditions. If it was Ebola I'd gladly stay in my home."

Quote from my wife's doctor.
"I'm nearly certain you had covid in early January."

Quote from my daughter's doctor(North Dakota)
"I think you had covid in December. I could do an antibodies test but that could open up an ethics can of worms."

Quote from my doctor.
"I wish the president would just speak his mind like he used to.This is ridiculous! Can we please go back to work already?"

Obviously these are all personal and unverifiable. They mean nothing here, I get it. But you asked and these are the conversations I have had.


My health care provider (8 doctors): All the doctors are sheltering at home and only doing zoom consultations or telephone consultations. If they think the problem is serious they will refer you to the local hospital. Same for my wife's doctor.


You need 8 doctors? You must be totally messed up. No wonder you hide in the basement, like Joe Biden... Are they all medical doctors, or are there other 'issues'?
19-05-2020 22:59
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13495)
keepit wrote:
Has anyone heard any medical reports about the covid affecting the brain? It certainly affects the sense of smell and sense of taste.

Mucking up additional symptoms now?

Guess what? A plugged up nose kills most of your sense of smell. You have very little sense of taste. Nuances of taste are what you smell.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
20-05-2020 02:17
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7516)
gfm7175 wrote:I've so far personally known two people who have contracted the virus (my cousin and her husband). She is a nurse, and he got it from her. They are both doing just fine.

I haven't managed to knowingly contract it yet, and I take it that you haven't either, given your best efforts to do so.

If I could have visited your cousin and her husband, I would have been happy to supply the beer and pizza in order to have a long.close-quarters conversation with them about any topic that takes a lot of time to cover.

I envy you.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
20-05-2020 17:17
DRKTS
★★☆☆☆
(304)
HarveyH55 wrote:
DRKTS wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:...talk to any doctors lately? Any one of them that's honest will tell you ...
Hey that's a great lead-in to a citation!

So? What do we have from doctors you'd like to share?

As of 2016, there were over 950,000 practicing physicians in the United States.

Also you've got retired doctors, or retiring doctors with nothing to lose.

So I'm sure we can get the honest scoop.

Quote from lifelong friend who's been a VA nurse for a decade.
"Masks are stupid! Borderline worthless. The media has made the public fearful, therefore easier to manipulate".

Quote from a family friend who is a very respected periodontist.
"The Corona virus is nothing to worry about if you are otherwise healthy. Your odds of dying from this are astronomically low unless you have underlying conditions. If it was Ebola I'd gladly stay in my home."

Quote from my wife's doctor.
"I'm nearly certain you had covid in early January."

Quote from my daughter's doctor(North Dakota)
"I think you had covid in December. I could do an antibodies test but that could open up an ethics can of worms."

Quote from my doctor.
"I wish the president would just speak his mind like he used to.This is ridiculous! Can we please go back to work already?"

Obviously these are all personal and unverifiable. They mean nothing here, I get it. But you asked and these are the conversations I have had.


My health care provider (8 doctors): All the doctors are sheltering at home and only doing zoom consultations or telephone consultations. If they think the problem is serious they will refer you to the local hospital. Same for my wife's doctor.


You need 8 doctors? You must be totally messed up. No wonder you hide in the basement, like Joe Biden... Are they all medical doctors, or are there other 'issues'?


The entire medical facility is closed (8 doctors) - you have a comprehension problem? I'd see a doctor about it if you can get an appointment.
20-05-2020 20:56
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1239)
IBdaMann wrote:
gfm7175 wrote:I've so far personally known two people who have contracted the virus (my cousin and her husband). She is a nurse, and he got it from her. They are both doing just fine.

I haven't managed to knowingly contract it yet, and I take it that you haven't either, given your best efforts to do so.

If I could have visited your cousin and her husband, I would have been happy to supply the beer and pizza in order to have a long.close-quarters conversation with them about any topic that takes a lot of time to cover.

I envy you.

.

Haha, thanks.
21-05-2020 09:14
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3377)
GasGuzzler wrote:
They are afraid of liability lawsuits. If they don't follow government guidelines the could be held liable for your stupidity.


A million doctors in the country and not one with courage to blow the whistle and challenge the gospel of everything they learned in medical school.

Such a vast and powerful conspiracy you guys believe in. May even rival the Flat Earthers who only need to believe all pilots and boat captains are in on the grand lie (which also lacks any motive).
21-05-2020 09:30
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7516)
tmiddles wrote:A million doctors in the country and not one with courage to blow the whistle and challenge the gospel of everything they learned in medical school.

Hey, you certainly understand cowardice and accession to the government. You certainly can't blame them for being that way, right?

tmiddles wrote:Such a vast and powerful conspiracy you guys believe in.

The dishonesty oozes from you like pus from a festering wound. Let me know how it works out for you.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
21-05-2020 22:37
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3377)
IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote:A million doctors in the country and not one with courage to blow the whistle and challenge the gospel of everything they learned in medical school.

Hey, you certainly understand cowardice and accession to the government. You certainly can't blame them for being that way, right?


I don't buy it even for a moment. It's as fantastic a claim as believing every boat captain and pilot in the world is keeping the secret that the Earth is flat.

It's not just a wild conspiracy theory it's a stupid one.

Primarily due to the ratio of next to no motive measured against the massive effort and expense that would required to get every doctor in the world to lie.

Yet here you stand with a nutty theory, NOTHING at all to support it (no "valid data sets" certainly, whatever those are), but you soldier on.
Edited on 21-05-2020 22:38
22-05-2020 02:11
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13495)
tmiddles wrote:...deleted Mantras 28...31...15...35b1...39b...39q...


No argument presented. Agoraphobia. 'Expert' worship.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
22-05-2020 02:15
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13495)
tmiddles wrote:...deleted Mantras 35b1...35d...9b...39q...38b...39n...


No argument presented. Invalid proofs. Bigotry. Agoraphobia.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
22-05-2020 05:30
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2547)
tmiddles wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
They are afraid of liability lawsuits. If they don't follow government guidelines the could be held liable for your stupidity.


A million doctors in the country and not one with courage to blow the whistle and challenge the gospel of everything they learned in medical school.

Such a vast and powerful conspiracy you guys believe in. May even rival the Flat Earthers who only need to believe all pilots and boat captains are in on the grand lie (which also lacks any motive).


Blow the whistle on what? The patients they treated for serious respiratory distress, do to a viral infection, or suspected infection. Doctors don't generally determine cause of death, just treat patients. The M.E. and coroners don't always do autopsies, or do additional lab work, unless requested. They simply review the reports and documents, and make a determination, if possible from that. They are given guidelines to follow, and usually have no reason to question the documents provided by doctors, and hospital labs. With the pandemic, cold and flu season, knowing exactly which virus caused the infection, might be interesting for research purposes, but consumes a lot of time and resources. They have many cases to review, and send on to the funeral homes. Doctors are focused on patients still living, and during an epidemic, symptoms are sufficient to list the active contagan, as the likely cause of infection. Might not always be accurate, but some virus caused the severe respiratory distress, that lead to death. The same labs running test kits for the living, are the same labs, and equipment, that would be tasked with isolating, and identifying the virus, for the deceased, and takes time, and a lot of resources, better spent on the still living.

It's really the media, and politics, that are misusing the data. They don't acknowledge that not all the deaths are 100% because of Covid-19, or express any margin of error. It's just like when testing began, there were few test kits being made, and few labs set up to handle a huge volume. Took weeks, to ramp up production of tests, and setup dedicated labs to run the tests. The media didn't figure in the increased volume of tests, just the number of positive results increasing rapidly. Gave the false impression the virus was spread faster, than it actually was. It was here a long time, nobody really noticed it spreading, just the same as a common cold. Because the symptoms are exactly the same. It wasn't from one infected person from China, or one commercial flight either. It was tens of thousands of people, over at least a two month period, before the epidemic/pandemic declared.
22-05-2020 10:28
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3377)
HarveyH55 wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:...If they don't follow government guidelines the could be held liable....
A million doctors in the country and not one with courage to blow the whistle....
Blow the whistle on what? The patients they treated for serious respiratory distress, do to a viral infection, or suspected infection. Doctors don't generally determine cause of death,...


Blow the whistle on what IBD, GG and others here are proposing is a vast conspiracy to lie to loved ones about why someone died and claim it was Covid when it wasn't. To falsify medial records and commit both a legal fraud and a crime against medicine itself by providing false and distorted data.

Are you seriously saying Harvey that doctors just don't know most of the time why their patients die?
23-05-2020 00:05
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13495)
tmiddles wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:...If they don't follow government guidelines the could be held liable....
A million doctors in the country and not one with courage to blow the whistle....
Blow the whistle on what? The patients they treated for serious respiratory distress, do to a viral infection, or suspected infection. Doctors don't generally determine cause of death,...


Blow the whistle on what IBD, GG and others here are proposing is a vast conspiracy to lie to loved ones about why someone died and claim it was Covid when it wasn't. To falsify medial records and commit both a legal fraud and a crime against medicine itself by providing false and distorted data.

Are you seriously saying Harvey that doctors just don't know most of the time why their patients die?


I can understand your confusion, since most people have never gone through the actual paperwork concerning a death.

If the death occurs in a hospital, the doctor in charge of the case submits an application to the county coroner's office, describing the case and what the doctor considers is the cause of death. Outside a hospital, the death application might be made by a policeman, sheriff, first aid responder, or even a fire department chief.

The coroner can either accept that application or reject that application. The doctor must continue to refile until the coroner is satisfied with the application. If he is satisfied, the coroner issues a certificate of death. This certificate is considered proof of the death in a court of law and is used to conduct the affairs of the deceased, such as disposing of the property and dissolving any marriage under government recognition.

County coroners are government officials. They are not necessarily doctors at all. They are bureaucrats, doing what they do, and are subject to government whim and policies, including the State governments. If a coroner is a liberal, willing to support a liberal governor to keep his illegal thumb on the populace, they will start refusing some applications until they list Covid-19 as the cause of death, knowing that such a refiling will help the statistics the governor needs to keep the house arrest going.

Yes. It is fraud. It is fraud by a government official in support of an illegal action by a government official. These people are being sued now, and they should be. Falsifying death certificates is considered a felony in some States. There are lot of angry people about this.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Edited on 23-05-2020 00:09
23-05-2020 04:07
duncan61
★★★☆☆
(636)
Callum Hudson-Odoi was the first English premier leage player to test positive for Covid.Guess what he made a full recovery and is back in training with Chelsea
23-05-2020 06:53
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2547)
tmiddles wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:...If they don't follow government guidelines the could be held liable....
A million doctors in the country and not one with courage to blow the whistle....
Blow the whistle on what? The patients they treated for serious respiratory distress, do to a viral infection, or suspected infection. Doctors don't generally determine cause of death,...


Blow the whistle on what IBD, GG and others here are proposing is a vast conspiracy to lie to loved ones about why someone died and claim it was Covid when it wasn't. To falsify medial records and commit both a legal fraud and a crime against medicine itself by providing false and distorted data.

Are you seriously saying Harvey that doctors just don't know most of the time why their patients die?


Most of the time, they have a pretty good idea, and it goes into their report, which goes to the Medical Examiner, who generally goes with that. Doctors don't do their own lab work, that a separate report. The State and Federal government does set certain guidelines for reporting a death. The Medical Examiner compares the findings, with the guidelines, to determine the official cause of death. A respirator infection, maybe be a contributing factor, but mot the actual cause. It might be debatable, or proven false, if somebody dug deep enough. But most cases, it's accurate enough, since the patient is still going to be dead. Does the hospital or doctor really want the coroner to cut up each patient, and find that the respiratory infection wasn't that bad, the real cause was from the damage done, when somebody shoved the ventilator tub to far down? Mostly, the ME's office, is a bunch of paper-shufflers. Autopsy are by special request, or something in the reports don't add up, or there is something of special interest about the death.

It's not really that anyone is lying, it's they just aren't making the close examination of specimens, to determine which virus, actually caused/contributed to the death. It's not that quick and easy, like on TV. With all labs focusing on test kits from living patients, they don't have time or resources to make the requests. It's an epidemic, it's a respiratory infection, it's reasonable to believe it's Covid-19. I'm sure samples are taken, and stored, maybe in a year or two, they'll start running some of those tests, to confirm. Right now, it's more important to keep the available resources focused on the living, and those that might be saved.
23-05-2020 07:08
duncan61
★★★☆☆
(636)
A friend of my Fathers died when he was electrocuted and the paper wrote he fell off a ladder when his daughter raised the subject with the reporter he said well sue me and she did and was awarded a big settlement.I learned a lot from the incident as what my take on what happened was he had moved to a retirement village and he put up some 300mm lattice on top of the boundry fence they became friendly with another couple and planned a trip to Vegas together and he was asked to put up lattice on thier fence which he agreed to do.On the day he said he would do it it was stinking hot and after shopping and sourcing the lattice from bunnings he tried to convince the other woman he would do it the next morning but she pressured him into doing it now and he got angry and yanked on his extension cord when it was stuck and it electrified the fence he was holding on to and he was standing on metal steps and the building had no RCD installed and died.They all still went to Vegas.When people try to pressure me to do something I do not wish to I state I have the rest of my life to do this and it shuts them up
23-05-2020 18:00
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2547)
duncan61 wrote:
A friend of my Fathers died when he was electrocuted and the paper wrote he fell off a ladder when his daughter raised the subject with the reporter he said well sue me and she did and was awarded a big settlement.I learned a lot from the incident as what my take on what happened was he had moved to a retirement village and he put up some 300mm lattice on top of the boundry fence they became friendly with another couple and planned a trip to Vegas together and he was asked to put up lattice on thier fence which he agreed to do.On the day he said he would do it it was stinking hot and after shopping and sourcing the lattice from bunnings he tried to convince the other woman he would do it the next morning but she pressured him into doing it now and he got angry and yanked on his extension cord when it was stuck and it electrified the fence he was holding on to and he was standing on metal steps and the building had no RCD installed and died.They all still went to Vegas.When people try to pressure me to do something I do not wish to I state I have the rest of my life to do this and it shuts them up


Friend or family, I don't let anyone push me, specially I'm doing them a favor. Employment is something different though, but even then, I don't allow people to push me into taking unhealthy risks.
23-05-2020 20:01
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13495)
HarveyH55 wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:...If they don't follow government guidelines the could be held liable....
A million doctors in the country and not one with courage to blow the whistle....
Blow the whistle on what? The patients they treated for serious respiratory distress, do to a viral infection, or suspected infection. Doctors don't generally determine cause of death,...


Blow the whistle on what IBD, GG and others here are proposing is a vast conspiracy to lie to loved ones about why someone died and claim it was Covid when it wasn't. To falsify medial records and commit both a legal fraud and a crime against medicine itself by providing false and distorted data.

Are you seriously saying Harvey that doctors just don't know most of the time why their patients die?


Most of the time, they have a pretty good idea, and it goes into their report, which goes to the Medical Examiner, who generally goes with that. Doctors don't do their own lab work, that a separate report. The State and Federal government does set certain guidelines for reporting a death. The Medical Examiner compares the findings, with the guidelines, to determine the official cause of death. A respirator infection, maybe be a contributing factor, but mot the actual cause. It might be debatable, or proven false, if somebody dug deep enough. But most cases, it's accurate enough, since the patient is still going to be dead. Does the hospital or doctor really want the coroner to cut up each patient, and find that the respiratory infection wasn't that bad, the real cause was from the damage done, when somebody shoved the ventilator tub to far down? Mostly, the ME's office, is a bunch of paper-shufflers. Autopsy are by special request, or something in the reports don't add up, or there is something of special interest about the death.

It's not really that anyone is lying, it's they just aren't making the close examination of specimens, to determine which virus, actually caused/contributed to the death. It's not that quick and easy, like on TV. With all labs focusing on test kits from living patients, they don't have time or resources to make the requests. It's an epidemic, it's a respiratory infection, it's reasonable to believe it's Covid-19. I'm sure samples are taken, and stored, maybe in a year or two, they'll start running some of those tests, to confirm. Right now, it's more important to keep the available resources focused on the living, and those that might be saved.


Some of these coroners are lying. They've been caught at it. Some of them are being sued. others are facing criminal charges (it's considered a felony to falsify death records in some States).


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
23-05-2020 20:25
keepit
★★★★☆
(1705)
Where did you get this information about coroners being sued and facing felony charges ITN? I'd suggest verification of what you say.
24-05-2020 00:05
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2547)
Into the Night wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:...If they don't follow government guidelines the could be held liable....
A million doctors in the country and not one with courage to blow the whistle....
Blow the whistle on what? The patients they treated for serious respiratory distress, do to a viral infection, or suspected infection. Doctors don't generally determine cause of death,...


Blow the whistle on what IBD, GG and others here are proposing is a vast conspiracy to lie to loved ones about why someone died and claim it was Covid when it wasn't. To falsify medial records and commit both a legal fraud and a crime against medicine itself by providing false and distorted data.

Are you seriously saying Harvey that doctors just don't know most of the time why their patients die?


Most of the time, they have a pretty good idea, and it goes into their report, which goes to the Medical Examiner, who generally goes with that. Doctors don't do their own lab work, that a separate report. The State and Federal government does set certain guidelines for reporting a death. The Medical Examiner compares the findings, with the guidelines, to determine the official cause of death. A respirator infection, maybe be a contributing factor, but mot the actual cause. It might be debatable, or proven false, if somebody dug deep enough. But most cases, it's accurate enough, since the patient is still going to be dead. Does the hospital or doctor really want the coroner to cut up each patient, and find that the respiratory infection wasn't that bad, the real cause was from the damage done, when somebody shoved the ventilator tub to far down? Mostly, the ME's office, is a bunch of paper-shufflers. Autopsy are by special request, or something in the reports don't add up, or there is something of special interest about the death.

It's not really that anyone is lying, it's they just aren't making the close examination of specimens, to determine which virus, actually caused/contributed to the death. It's not that quick and easy, like on TV. With all labs focusing on test kits from living patients, they don't have time or resources to make the requests. It's an epidemic, it's a respiratory infection, it's reasonable to believe it's Covid-19. I'm sure samples are taken, and stored, maybe in a year or two, they'll start running some of those tests, to confirm. Right now, it's more important to keep the available resources focused on the living, and those that might be saved.


Some of these coroners are lying. They've been caught at it. Some of them are being sued. others are facing criminal charges (it's considered a felony to falsify death records in some States).


Wouldn't doubt it, people are lazy, regardless of profession. I doubt those cases will get much traction though. Mostly, all they are required to do, is review the reports given to them by doctors and hospitals. Victims of a crime, aren't alway given a thorough examination either, just collect evidence requested.
24-05-2020 05:53
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3377)
Into the Night wrote:...The doctor must continue to refile until the coroner is satisfied with the application. ...If a coroner is a liberal, ...refusing some applications until they list Covid-19 ....

At what point to you find a total lack of evidence indicative that something is not happening?

What if I said: "Most corners are men, and deaths from breast cancer are actually ten times what is reported, because the male coroners insist that doctors change the reason. The doctors are silent on this fraud because they don't want to lose their jobs. But the male corners don't want prostate cancer research dollars going to breast cancer instead."

Now that is also a completely stupid theory, without a motive, that has both nothing to back it up and an extremely high likelihood that someone (doctors, coroners or the families of dead people) would expose the fraud.

This is classic INFOWARS, PizzaGate BS where a wild theory that is incredible on it's face, has nothing to support it and yet is thrown around as though it were a fact.

Simple question ITN:
Into the Night wrote:It is fraud by a government official in support of an illegal action by a government official.
Why do you believe that? You did not provide anything that supports the conclusion.

HarveyH55 wrote:It's not really that anyone is lying, it's they just aren't making the close examination of specimens, to determine which virus, actually caused/contributed to the death.
And mistakes can be made either way. Most charts on Covid-19 show the confirmed and suspect separately.

Pretend for a moment that you're a government official who wants desperately to manipulate the data to show that Covid-19 is a much bigger problem than it is. How could you do it and leave no evidence behind? Could you do it and have no witnesses?

I can't think of any scenario where that is possible.

Mistakes are always made going in both directions with anything (like the supermarket scanning the wrong price).
24-05-2020 21:23
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13495)
keepit wrote:
Where did you get this information about coroners being sued and facing felony charges ITN? I'd suggest verification of what you say.


RQAA. I already answered this question for you.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
24-05-2020 21:26
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13495)
HarveyH55 wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:...If they don't follow government guidelines the could be held liable....
A million doctors in the country and not one with courage to blow the whistle....
Blow the whistle on what? The patients they treated for serious respiratory distress, do to a viral infection, or suspected infection. Doctors don't generally determine cause of death,...


Blow the whistle on what IBD, GG and others here are proposing is a vast conspiracy to lie to loved ones about why someone died and claim it was Covid when it wasn't. To falsify medial records and commit both a legal fraud and a crime against medicine itself by providing false and distorted data.

Are you seriously saying Harvey that doctors just don't know most of the time why their patients die?


Most of the time, they have a pretty good idea, and it goes into their report, which goes to the Medical Examiner, who generally goes with that. Doctors don't do their own lab work, that a separate report. The State and Federal government does set certain guidelines for reporting a death. The Medical Examiner compares the findings, with the guidelines, to determine the official cause of death. A respirator infection, maybe be a contributing factor, but mot the actual cause. It might be debatable, or proven false, if somebody dug deep enough. But most cases, it's accurate enough, since the patient is still going to be dead. Does the hospital or doctor really want the coroner to cut up each patient, and find that the respiratory infection wasn't that bad, the real cause was from the damage done, when somebody shoved the ventilator tub to far down? Mostly, the ME's office, is a bunch of paper-shufflers. Autopsy are by special request, or something in the reports don't add up, or there is something of special interest about the death.

It's not really that anyone is lying, it's they just aren't making the close examination of specimens, to determine which virus, actually caused/contributed to the death. It's not that quick and easy, like on TV. With all labs focusing on test kits from living patients, they don't have time or resources to make the requests. It's an epidemic, it's a respiratory infection, it's reasonable to believe it's Covid-19. I'm sure samples are taken, and stored, maybe in a year or two, they'll start running some of those tests, to confirm. Right now, it's more important to keep the available resources focused on the living, and those that might be saved.


Some of these coroners are lying. They've been caught at it. Some of them are being sued. others are facing criminal charges (it's considered a felony to falsify death records in some States).


Wouldn't doubt it, people are lazy, regardless of profession. I doubt those cases will get much traction though. Mostly, all they are required to do, is review the reports given to them by doctors and hospitals. Victims of a crime, aren't alway given a thorough examination either, just collect evidence requested.


Falsifying death records is a felony in some States. We shall see how traction these lawsuits get. The people filing them have a valid case.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
24-05-2020 21:36
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13495)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:...The doctor must continue to refile until the coroner is satisfied with the application. ...If a coroner is a liberal, ...refusing some applications until they list Covid-19 ....

At what point to you find a total lack of evidence indicative that something is not happening?

What if I said: "Most corners are men, and deaths from breast cancer are actually ten times what is reported, because the male coroners insist that doctors change the reason. The doctors are silent on this fraud because they don't want to lose their jobs. But the male corners don't want prostate cancer research dollars going to breast cancer instead."

Now that is also a completely stupid theory, without a motive, that has both nothing to back it up and an extremely high likelihood that someone (doctors, coroners or the families of dead people) would expose the fraud.

You are using a contrived case again, dumbass. Mantra 15. We aren't talking about this case. Mantra 16b. Stay on topic.
tmiddles wrote:
This is classic INFOWARS, PizzaGate BS where a wild theory that is incredible on it's face, has nothing to support it and yet is thrown around as though it were a fact.

Irrelevant. Mantra 16c.
tmiddles wrote:
Simple question ITN:
Into the Night wrote:It is fraud by a government official in support of an illegal action by a government official.
Why do you believe that? You did not provide anything that supports the conclusion.

Mantra 29. RQAA.
tmiddles wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:It's not really that anyone is lying, it's they just aren't making the close examination of specimens, to determine which virus, actually caused/contributed to the death.
And mistakes can be made either way. Most charts on Covid-19 show the confirmed and suspect separately.

Redefinition fallacy Mantra 10 (fraud<->mistake). You can't call fraud a 'simple mistake'.
tmiddles wrote:
Pretend for a moment that you're a government official who wants desperately to manipulate the data to show that Covid-19 is a much bigger problem than it is. How could you do it and leave no evidence behind? Could you do it and have no witnesses?

No. And they are getting caught at it. Mantra 29. RQAA.
tmiddles wrote:
I can't think of any scenario where that is possible.

Argument of ignorance fallacy. Mantra 28...39d.
tmiddles wrote:
Mistakes are always made going in both directions with anything (like the supermarket scanning the wrong price).

We aren't talking about supermarkets. Mantra 15...16c...39o...

No argument presented. Wandering off topic (again). RQAA. Attempted proof by argument of ignorance and conflation.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
24-05-2020 22:42
keepit
★★★★☆
(1705)
ITN,
Balonyism and OOYA. You haven't said where you got that stuff about coroners being sued and charged with felonies. I suppose there might be an occasional case like that but you present it as if it is rampant in the 100,000 deaths from covid in the us.
I don't know why i respond to some of your posts. They are almost always a bunch of bull.
25-05-2020 00:08
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13495)
keepit wrote:
ITN,
Balonyism and OOYA.

Mantra 23a.
keepit wrote:
You haven't said where you got that stuff about coroners being sued and charged with felonies.

I have. RQAA. Mantra 29.
keepit wrote:
I suppose there might be an occasional case like that but you present it as if it is rampant in the 100,000 deaths from covid in the us.

It is. RQAA. Mantra 29...23a.
keepit wrote:
I don't know why i respond to some of your posts. They are almost always a bunch of bull.

Mantra 5.

No argument presented. RQAA. Bulverism.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
25-05-2020 00:10
keepit
★★★★☆
(1705)
So , prove it. What's the problem with that?
25-05-2020 04:17
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13495)
keepit wrote:
So , prove it. What's the problem with that?

Mantra 36e...29...
RQAA.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
25-05-2020 11:09
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3377)
Into the Night wrote:Falsifying death records is a felony in some States. We shall see ...
Yep it's a serious crime. Those tend not to get committed when there is no motive.

Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:... nothing to support it ...

Irrelevant.
Now see I differ with you there INFOWARS the Night. It matters when you have no support for your position.

keepit wrote:ITN, Balonyism and OOYA. You haven't said where you got that stuff about coroners being sued ...

Well said. Hey ITN I bet you think illegal aliens are voting and throwing off election results don't you?
25-05-2020 23:03
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13495)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:Falsifying death records is a felony in some States. We shall see ...
Yep it's a serious crime. Those tend not to get committed when there is no motive.
There is. RQAA.
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:... nothing to support it ...

Irrelevant.
Now see I differ with you there INFOWARS the Night. It matters when you have no support for your position.
Already given. RQAA.
tmiddles wrote:
keepit wrote:ITN, Balonyism and OOYA. You haven't said where you got that stuff about coroners being sued ...

Well said. Hey ITN I bet you think illegal aliens are voting and throwing off election results don't you?

Now that you bring it up...yes, they do. Dead people also 'vote'. Now you want to discuss the habit of Democrats stuffing ballot boxes? Some of THEM have been prosecuted too!

But, hey, you go on denying your past arguments, keep asking the same questions here repeitiously, deny science and mathematics, try to revise history, deny these crimes committed by the members of your party for the sake of your party. I'm sure it'll all work out when Trump wins an easy re-election and the sheriff serving a notice comes and knocks on the door of some Democrat again.



The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Edited on 25-05-2020 23:07
26-05-2020 02:16
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3377)
Into the Night wrote:...Dead people also 'vote'. ...
I have no doubt it has happened. Of course you're fond of doing simple division to dismiss an issue as insignificant as you have with Covid-19 so are you saying dead people voting is significant?

What I've been hoping to find has finally appeared: A true A/B test on Covid response.
FORBES: Sweden's Gamble On Coronavirus: Has It Paid Off?

Sweden decided to not lockdown/stay-at-home and go for herd immunity. OOPS!
"As of Friday, May 22nd, 3,925 people have died from Covid-19 in Sweden, a country with a population of 10 million. Neighbors Denmark, Finland and Norway - each with populations about half of Sweden's - have recorded death tolls of 561, 306 and 235, respectively."

So the math on that is
Denmark 561/5.8m 0.000097
Finland 306/5.5m 0.000056
Norway 235/5.4m 0.000044
Average for Sweden's neighbors: 0.000066
Sweden 3925/10.3m 0.000381
So the deaths in Sweden are six time higher than in the neighboring countries.

Now here's what I'm wondering ITN: Why wouldn't Sweden want to lie about having fewer deaths if countries are doing that?

Doesn't it make them look bad not to? Or maybe more than 4000 people died of Covid-19?

It seems to me all four countries would have the same motivation to look good and none of them are any more likely to be dishonest. So this provides a very good "test" of covid policy.
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