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01-06-2020 15:51
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7051)
HarveyH55 wrote:Evidence of what? The same three people take their off-topic arguments from thread-to-thread, burying the origin thread, in the same crap, si basically, there is only that personal argument throughout the site?

Climate change, is entirely opinion. We don't get to travel back in time, to make actual measurements and observations. And we don't get to travel into the future, to see if our speculations were correct. My opinion, is just as valid as 'expert' opinion, because that is all there is to this issue. What people believed happened in the distant past, and what might happen in the distant future. Me producing any sort of evidence, would be just regurgitating somebody else's opinion, interpretation.

Great post. Well said.
Attached image:

01-06-2020 16:29
duncan61
★★☆☆☆
(366)
Like me Harvey can claim no sea level rise by the technical inovation of having a look and having lived in the same place for 50 years.Some twat in a building miles away claims it is going up because the science says it has to but it isnt where do we go from here
01-06-2020 17:24
keepit
★★★★☆
(1519)
Harvey,
I've studied enough science to take the opinion of legitimate scientists seriously. Their evidence is what i call evidence.
What you are doing is denying that what scientists say is really science. I think they call that science denial and that is what so many on this site accuse other people of doing.
01-06-2020 18:17
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1714)
keepit wrote:
"Death by covud", "death with covid".
Always with the semantics.


A man is eating a Hershey bar and has a heart attack. He falls over dead.

Option 1. Death BY chocolate.
Option 2. Death WITH chocolate.
Option 3. Keepit is a dumbass.

Hint: There are actually 2 correct answers.


gasguzzler, calling the jet stream the "Norwegian jet stream" is a bigoted statement. -James-
01-06-2020 20:04
gfm7175Profile picture★★★☆☆
(920)
GasGuzzler wrote:
keepit wrote:
"Death by covud", "death with covid".
Always with the semantics.


A man is eating a Hershey bar and has a heart attack. He falls over dead.

Option 1. Death BY chocolate.
Option 2. Death WITH chocolate.
Option 3. Keepit is a dumbass.

Hint: There are actually 2 correct answers.

Two wings way up.


But deep down inside, you know it's the chocolate that killed him...
01-06-2020 22:23
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(12779)
keepit wrote:
Harvey,
I've studied enough science to take the opinion of legitimate scientists seriously. Their evidence is what i call evidence.
What you are doing is denying that what scientists say is really science. I think they call that science denial and that is what so many on this site accuse other people of doing.


Science isn't scientists. It isn't even people at all. Define 'legitimate'. Science does not use supporting evidence. Only religions do that.

Buzzword fallacy (science).


The Parrot Killer
02-06-2020 02:19
duncan61
★★☆☆☆
(366)
keepit wrote:
Harvey,
I've studied enough science to take the opinion of legitimate scientists seriously. Their evidence is what i call evidence.
What you are doing is denying that what scientists say is really science. I think they call that science denial and that is what so many on this site accuse other people of doing.


This is the point entirely.We are not believing the data presented as it is being coerced and the scientists who put forward genuine observations are ignored.The Micheal Mann trials prove he made it up but the IPCC still went with it.So all data is tainted.When it happens I might care a little


duncan61
02-06-2020 20:26
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2060)
duncan61 wrote:
keepit wrote:
Harvey,
I've studied enough science to take the opinion of legitimate scientists seriously. Their evidence is what i call evidence.
What you are doing is denying that what scientists say is really science. I think they call that science denial and that is what so many on this site accuse other people of doing.


This is the point entirely.We are not believing the data presented as it is being coerced and the scientists who put forward genuine observations are ignored.The Micheal Mann trials prove he made it up but the IPCC still went with it.So all data is tainted.When it happens I might care a little


It's not really about the data, or even the research they use. Most all of it was done honestly, and the researchers worked really hard, to do the job right. It's more of the way those results are used, and being misrepresented, misinterpreted. The researchers can't really dispute it, since that's the nature of their work. They present what they observed, and give their opinion as to why. Everyone else is free to read their reports, and give their opinions as well, as long as it's consistent with the data recorded. Like the ice core samples... There is some chance, that they can look back in time, and get some idea of what was going on in the world, while the various layers were being frozen and compressed. There is no real timeline, as to days, weeks, months, or years, are represented in each layer though. No way to tell if there was a long melting period, that erased a few centuries accumulation. Not all gasses are perfectly frozen in space, they can move through ice. Pressure changes things a little too. CO2 can be detected, but there is no way to know if it really means anything, or if it's accurate, like the IPCC likes to claim. The ice core researchers can't make that call, one way or the other, nothing to prove otherwise. You can't accuse someone, without proof they are a fraud. Besides the IPCC gives them money. Would you go in, and tell your employer, they are filthy lairs, if you still want to keep getting paid?

It's tough to go through the IPCC assessment reports, and follow every paper cited. There is a mountain of them to read. It's not easy reading either, specially those that are hundreds of pages, and the IPCC only used mabe a few paragraphs, which usually have little value. The ones that sound to be really good, are behind pay-walls. Meaning, you have to pay a fee, or subscribe, just to see them. Could get expensive, specially, if they use them, much like the free research papers.
02-06-2020 21:52
keepit
★★★★☆
(1519)
Almost all scientist believe the research so why don't you?
I read 5 books on climate change so i have some knowledge.
02-06-2020 22:28
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(12779)
keepit wrote:
Almost all scientist believe the research so why don't you?
I read 5 books on climate change so i have some knowledge.


'Climate change' is not knowledge. It's not even defined.


The Parrot Killer
02-06-2020 22:45
keepit
★★★★☆
(1519)
Hello ITN,
I hope you're doing well.
02-06-2020 23:02
gfm7175Profile picture★★★☆☆
(920)
keepit wrote:
Almost all scientist believe the research so why don't you?

Appealing to "experts" and popularity, eh? That doesn't fly with me. You also haven't presented what you consider to be "the research". I'd like to peruse through it if you don't mind... or is "the research" some sort of entity that I need to place my faith in?


keepit wrote:
I read 5 books on climate change so i have some knowledge.

Did any of those books happen to offer up a valid definition for "climate change"?
02-06-2020 23:21
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2060)
keepit wrote:
Almost all scientist believe the research so why don't you?
I read 5 books on climate change so i have some knowledge.


There are different perspectives for everything, as you probably noticed here. On paper, something can be possible, plausible. You can admit to that, in absents of an argument to contradict. Which is pretty much central to the silly debate games some play here. It's not really that they 'believe' it's true, it's there is no argument to dispute. It's purely about winning the argument game, not the subject of the argument.

Research is used to support/sell an opinion, which can be profitable, in book sales, and research grants. And, unfortunately, that's what a lot of this crap comes down to any more. Who can sell their opinion, for the highest price, is the winner.
03-06-2020 02:13
duncan61
★★☆☆☆
(366)
keepit wrote:
Almost all scientist believe the research so why don't you?
I read 5 books on climate change so i have some knowledge.


This is the problem.Not all scientist agree on the impact it will have.


duncan61
03-06-2020 08:16
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7051)
gfm7175 wrote:
keepit wrote:
I read 5 books on climate change so i have some knowledge.

Did any of those books happen to offer up a valid definition for "climate change"?

Great question. Your account has been credited.

.
Attached image:


Edited on 03-06-2020 08:17
03-06-2020 08:19
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7051)
duncan61 wrote:
keepit wrote:
Almost all scientist believe the research so why don't you?
I read 5 books on climate change so i have some knowledge.


This is the problem.Not all scientist agree on the impact it will have.


Yet all scientists agree that there are no impacts from the completely undefined.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
03-06-2020 13:26
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3260)
IBdaMann wrote:
Doctors are correctly writing "Death *WITH* COVID-19" and that is not lying. No doctor is being told to write "Death *BY* COVID-19"
You just made that up IBD. I actually took the trouble to find the actual instructions earlier:
tmiddles wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:...did you bother to read the footnotes, under the first graph? The second on, is pretty much as posted earlier, where any death, that had any possible relation to Covid-19, ....

Here are the guidelines from the CDC for you Harvey as it is an interesting question:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/icd/COVID-19-guidelines-final.pdf

"c) Acute respiratory illness due to COVID-19
(i) Pneumonia
For a pneumonia case confirmed as due to the 2019 novel coronavirus (COVID-19),
assign codes U07.1, COVID-19, ..."

So the code is "U07.1" for respritory distress death that the doctor actually think is cause by Covid-19 in a patient that has the virus.

You can see the death count for "U07.1" here:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm

The leading causes of death in the country are heart disease and cancer. So no, people who die from heart attacks or cancer, even if they do test positive for Covid-19, would not get code "U07.1" for respritory distress death.

The US total for COVID-19 "U07.1" respritory distress deaths specifically is 62,515. In New York it is 15,757. That is 70% of the 22,619 that is reported.
So IBD what do you imagine the patients coded with U07.1 are actually dying of? The usually leading causes of death? Heart Disease mistaken for pneumonia perhaps?
Don't worry everyone, IBD says it's a hoax, so he faked it. Probably committed suicide to help China lie about Covid. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-52897017

Doctors are not liars or cowards across the board. It's an absurd conspiracy theory. But then most are.
Edited on 03-06-2020 13:27
03-06-2020 16:34
gfm7175Profile picture★★★☆☆
(920)
IBdaMann wrote:
gfm7175 wrote:
keepit wrote:
I read 5 books on climate change so i have some knowledge.

Did any of those books happen to offer up a valid definition for "climate change"?

Great question. Your account has been credited.

.

Thank you.

I'm now carrying quite a few of these suckers around, and my wings are getting rather heavy from all the "winning"... Anything I can redeem these points for? Otherwise, I'll have to expand my nest to make room for all of them...

Edited on 03-06-2020 16:36
03-06-2020 19:20
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7051)
gfm7175 wrote:I'm now carrying quite a few of these suckers around, and my wings are getting rather heavy from all the "winning"... Anything I can redeem these points for?

Sure, the redemption catalog is extensive. What would you like and how many points are you looking to spend?

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
03-06-2020 19:49
gfm7175Profile picture★★★☆☆
(920)
IBdaMann wrote:
gfm7175 wrote:I'm now carrying quite a few of these suckers around, and my wings are getting rather heavy from all the "winning"... Anything I can redeem these points for?

Sure, the redemption catalog is extensive. What would you like and how many points are you looking to spend?

.


I want to redeem however many bonus points I happen to have towards paying off the debt for my carbon sins that I drop onto people's vehicles.
03-06-2020 21:21
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(12779)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
Doctors are correctly writing "Death *WITH* COVID-19" and that is not lying. No doctor is being told to write "Death *BY* COVID-19"
You just made that up IBD. I actually took the trouble to find the actual instructions earlier:
tmiddles wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:...did you bother to read the footnotes, under the first graph? The second on, is pretty much as posted earlier, where any death, that had any possible relation to Covid-19, ....

Here are the guidelines from the CDC for you Harvey as it is an interesting question:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/icd/COVID-19-guidelines-final.pdf

"c) Acute respiratory illness due to COVID-19
(i) Pneumonia
For a pneumonia case confirmed as due to the 2019 novel coronavirus (COVID-19),
assign codes U07.1, COVID-19, ..."

So the code is "U07.1" for respritory distress death that the doctor actually think is cause by Covid-19 in a patient that has the virus.

You can see the death count for "U07.1" here:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm

The leading causes of death in the country are heart disease and cancer. So no, people who die from heart attacks or cancer, even if they do test positive for Covid-19, would not get code "U07.1" for respritory distress death.

The US total for COVID-19 "U07.1" respritory distress deaths specifically is 62,515. In New York it is 15,757. That is 70% of the 22,619 that is reported.
So IBD what do you imagine the patients coded with U07.1 are actually dying of? The usually leading causes of death? Heart Disease mistaken for pneumonia perhaps?
Don't worry everyone, IBD says it's a hoax, so he faked it. Probably committed suicide to help China lie about Covid. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-52897017

Doctors are not liars or cowards across the board. It's an absurd conspiracy theory. But then most are.

No, but it seems quite a few coroners are. They work for the government, you see.


The Parrot Killer
03-06-2020 23:15
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7051)
gfm7175 wrote:I want to redeem however many bonus points I happen to have towards paying off the debt for my carbon sins that I drop onto people's vehicles.

Done! Great news, the University of Wisconsin is holding a promotion on their official personal Global Warming reduction kits. Shipping is covered as well.

One is on its way to you. Be sure to rate the product BEFORE you use it.
Attached image:

04-06-2020 00:56
gfm7175Profile picture★★★☆☆
(920)
IBdaMann wrote:
gfm7175 wrote:I want to redeem however many bonus points I happen to have towards paying off the debt for my carbon sins that I drop onto people's vehicles.

Done! Great news, the University of Wisconsin is holding a promotion on their official personal Global Warming reduction kits. Shipping is covered as well.

One is on its way to you. Be sure to rate the product BEFORE you use it.

I decided to let a light-blue Prius driver test it out first. They didn't provide me with a rating afterwards for some reason, however I would give it a 10/10!


Thanks for the product!
04-06-2020 06:17
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2060)
The doctors and coroners aren't lying at all. Might be a little lazy and incompetent at times. It takes a lot of hours of hard work, to find the precise cause of death, even then it could have been several failures, just pick one. No Medical Examiner's office can expend the resources needed, to thoroughly examine each, and every dead body, pandemic, or just normal times. The government and CDC set in place guidelines for reporting deaths, since it's not really that important to know the precise cause, in most cases. Their dead, knowing the details, isn't going to bring them back to life. We already know there is a pandemic, and lots of people dying of respiratory distress, or related issue, because of pre-existing conditions. The patients landed in the hospital, because of an infection. Regardless of if it was a heart attack, stroke, or some other organ failure. Being infected, was likely what accelerated the condition. People are generally lazy, and the guideline they are handed, just make it simpler to avoid work. They have a huge stack of cases to review, they guidelines let them focus on the more pressing issues. There are still plenty of non-Covid-19 deaths to work on too.
17-06-2020 00:58
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7051)
tgoebbles wrote:Doctors are not liars or cowards across the board. It's an absurd conspiracy theory. But then most are.

I have bad news. George Floyd's death was a "COVID death." What's all this talk about the police being responsible?

It's in the ME's report. Sorry.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
17-06-2020 02:22
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2060)
IBdaMann wrote:
tgoebbles wrote:Doctors are not liars or cowards across the board. It's an absurd conspiracy theory. But then most are.

I have bad news. George Floyd's death was a "COVID death." What's all this talk about the police being responsible?

It's in the ME's report. Sorry.

.


Tested positive in April, should have been over it. If he actually had it. Heard that some of those bad test kits, are still being used.
17-06-2020 02:36
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7051)
HarveyH55 wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
tgoebbles wrote:Doctors are not liars or cowards across the board. It's an absurd conspiracy theory. But then most are.

I have bad news. George Floyd's death was a "COVID death." What's all this talk about the police being responsible?

It's in the ME's report. Sorry.

.


Tested positive in April, should have been over it. If he actually had it. Heard that some of those bad test kits, are still being used.


I'm with you, but all MEs have been instructed to note all deaths *WITH* COVID so the deaths can be classified as "COVID deaths" and all lumped together with COVID-19 being responsible. This is why it was noted in George Floyd's case. All deaths are required to have such an annotation (with/without COVID symptoms).

I complained bitterly about this practice in this forum. tgoebbles of course mocked me in defense of this practice.

Well, it turns out that George Floyd is a COVID death by the standard prevailing definition that he defends. We therefore must pardon/absolve Chauvin of any wrongdoing ... or at least tgoebbles must.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
17-06-2020 03:16
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(12779)
HarveyH55 wrote:
The doctors and coroners aren't lying at all. Might be a little lazy and incompetent at times. It takes a lot of hours of hard work, to find the precise cause of death, even then it could have been several failures, just pick one. No Medical Examiner's office can expend the resources needed, to thoroughly examine each, and every dead body, pandemic, or just normal times. The government and CDC set in place guidelines for reporting deaths, since it's not really that important to know the precise cause, in most cases. Their dead, knowing the details, isn't going to bring them back to life. We already know there is a pandemic, and lots of people dying of respiratory distress, or related issue, because of pre-existing conditions. The patients landed in the hospital, because of an infection. Regardless of if it was a heart attack, stroke, or some other organ failure. Being infected, was likely what accelerated the condition. People are generally lazy, and the guideline they are handed, just make it simpler to avoid work. They have a huge stack of cases to review, they guidelines let them focus on the more pressing issues. There are still plenty of non-Covid-19 deaths to work on too.


Coroners are lying. They are being prosecuted for it too. Falsifying death certificates is a felony in some States.


The Parrot Killer
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