why is it so confusing

L8112 wrote:
believe it or not, humans are have already caused the 7th mass extinction on planet earth. its not a matter of it happening 'then', it has already happened. grab your popcorn you have front row seats to an extinction event.
all of your goals, ambitions, dreams that you have in our capitalist society will be dashed, as mother nature stops on humans like a bug. the human mind, and the things it produces, has become a chaotic system. nature is highly ordered, nature is bringing order back to this planet by freeze drying it into a sterile lifeless ball-non chaotic.
I don't think you understand the implications of how a rise in global temperature will lead to a global 'freeze'. When you think of global warming like many people you likely think of the loss of some beach front property hotter summers, milder winters, etc. but that is a small fraction of what will happen.

In order to understand how the collapse will play out, you need to understand the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation, or AMOC, otherwise known as the Gulf Stream in common parlance. The Gulf Stream is actually a cycle that encompasses the globe, but was named by Ben Franklin who didn't have such vision available to him at the time. As that warm water flows northeast from the Gulf region, it gradually cools, and in cooling, compresses and sinks. Eventually, in the Labrador and Greenland Seas, it becomes dense enough that it plunges down thousands of meters into the deep ocean.

There it becomes a new current, running back south. It can remain in this deep-ocean current for many decades until it eventually upwells at the equator or in the Southern Ocean. This global conveyor belt of water is AMOC, and it is critical to the world's climate. Crucially, the entire AMOC system depends on cool, dense water "overturning" in the northwest Atlantic Ocean. Without cooled water plunging into the deep ocean near Greenland, and turning back south, the entire conveyor belt will stop. What happens is that salt water is more dense than fresh water. So the warm currents, such as the Gulf Stream, instead of floating on top and carrying warm current, sink underneath the cold, fresh water, because it is more dense. The Gulf water cools as it sinks, because it is cold down there. The Gulf Stream has been effectively shut down. And so it will be with the entire thermohaline system on the planet..

The cold, fresh water will dominate by floating on top. And what is worse, it has a higher freezing point than salt water by 15 degree Fahrenheit. Fresh water freezes at 32 degree Fahrenheit. Salt water freezes at 17 degrees Fahrenheit. This has nothing to do with the reason Antarctica and Greenland are freshwater ice shelves. They are freshwater because of millennia of accumulated snow and ice storms.

In a report by Thomas Delworth: (Abrupt Climate Change, Chapter 4. The Potential for Abrupt Change in the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation) describes 'huge injections of freshwater have historically destabilized AMOC, essentially by flooding the Atlantic with cold water and screwing up its finely tuned density cycle. Hansen and his colleagues argued that as the Greenland ice sheet melts, it would be able to provide exactly such a pulse—and that, crucially, climate models failed to account for this physical process.' It isn't the global surface temperature, it is the amount of surface ice loss that determines the fate of the planet's ecosystem. At first, the loss of ice decreases the planets albedo (makes it reflect less light, absorb more light and heat). Right now our albedo is about 0.30, and has been so since we first measured it in the 70's. That figure is across all visible wavelengths and generalized over the entire sphere. The number waxes and wanes but shows no trend. This, however, can be deceiving as it does not show a trend of the albedo shifting from the North Pole to the South over just 11 years for a total of 16% change. The
North Polar Region has lost 8% albedo from loss of ice and the Antarctic has gained that albedo and ice. Thus, the waxing waning figures we see are not random noise but Chaotic Trends. (We know that they are not random because we know that they represent shifts in ice and not 'noise').

Atwhat seems like random noise will suddenly become a strong trend toward loss of albedo and ice in the Arctic, which is currently at 40% permanent loss of year round ice. The surface temperatures will spiral upward as the albedo breaks past the point where we are losing reflectivity and absorbing heat from the sun. At that point, all of the Northern ice has melted, causing a complete breakdown in the AMOC system.

The change in density brings about the collapse of the AMOC system in the Northern hemisphere. By now the entire Southern hemisphere is as Antarctica, under miles of ice, and creeping northward.


as for time scales, people such as Guy McPherson are right that we are facing an extinction event but we will not be extinct in the next 10 years. most models predict Greenland will have ice free summers by 2050, meaning, the collapse of the AMOC system will likely occur in the second half of this century. when this happens the first initial signs will be very abrupt and will happen over a few months, possibly as short as days, oddly not that far off from 'the day after tomorrow', minus the hollywood sensationalism and speed of the freeze. the effects would be a sudden turn of storms, mostly pushing from the equator northward, with category beyond 5 hurricanes, dumping all of the heat in a sudden blast, followed by a quick drop in temperatures below zero.

over the course of a century, the temperatures would drop to as little as 100 below, possibly further. the ocean would take another century to freeze all the way down to the dirt, miles below, like antarctica is now. antarctica is the model. it was once a lush green tropical zone, frozen over in a blitz, like the ice core samples indicate, 4 miles deep in ice, in months.

L8112 wrote:
none of this takes into account compounding factors: ocean acidification, ocean dead zones, deforestation, the collapse of the global economy, etc.
yep we are ****ed.

L8112 wrote:
Wake, you know not what you say. Just as I said, the human mind has become a chaotic system, you are a perfect example of this-you talk yet you say nothing. You have zero degrees in anything related to science, you don't know ding-dong about anything.

LB911 wrote:
Salt water freezes at 17 degrees Fahrenheit.

Wake wrote:

L8112 wrote:
believe it or not, humans are have already caused the 7th mass extinction on planet earth. its not a matter of it happening 'then', it has already happened. grab your popcorn you have front row seats to an extinction event.
all of your goals, ambitions, dreams that you have in our capitalist society will be dashed, as mother nature stops on humans like a bug. the human mind, and the things it produces, has become a chaotic system. nature is highly ordered, nature is bringing order back to this planet by freeze drying it into a sterile lifeless ball-non chaotic.
I don't think you understand the implications of how a rise in global temperature will lead to a global 'freeze'. When you think of global warming like many people you likely think of the loss of some beach front property hotter summers, milder winters, etc. but that is a small fraction of what will happen.

In order to understand how the collapse will play out, you need to understand the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation, or AMOC, otherwise known as the Gulf Stream in common parlance. The Gulf Stream is actually a cycle that encompasses the globe, but was named by Ben Franklin who didn't have such vision available to him at the time. As that warm water flows northeast from the Gulf region, it gradually cools, and in cooling, compresses and sinks. Eventually, in the Labrador and Greenland Seas, it becomes dense enough that it plunges down thousands of meters into the deep ocean.

There it becomes a new current, running back south. It can remain in this deep-ocean current for many decades until it eventually upwells at the equator or in the Southern Ocean. This global conveyor belt of water is AMOC, and it is critical to the world's climate. Crucially, the entire AMOC system depends on cool, dense water "overturning" in the northwest Atlantic Ocean. Without cooled water plunging into the deep ocean near Greenland, and turning back south, the entire conveyor belt will stop. What happens is that salt water is more dense than fresh water. So the warm currents, such as the Gulf Stream, instead of floating on top and carrying warm current, sink underneath the cold, fresh water, because it is more dense. The Gulf water cools as it sinks, because it is cold down there. The Gulf Stream has been effectively shut down. And so it will be with the entire thermohaline system on the planet..

The cold, fresh water will dominate by floating on top. And what is worse, it has a higher freezing point than salt water by 15 degree Fahrenheit. Fresh water freezes at 32 degree Fahrenheit. Salt water freezes at 17 degrees Fahrenheit. This has nothing to do with the reason Antarctica and Greenland are freshwater ice shelves. They are freshwater because of millennia of accumulated snow and ice storms.

In a report by Thomas Delworth: (Abrupt Climate Change, Chapter 4. The Potential for Abrupt Change in the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation) describes 'huge injections of freshwater have historically destabilized AMOC, essentially by flooding the Atlantic with cold water and screwing up its finely tuned density cycle. Hansen and his colleagues argued that as the Greenland ice sheet melts, it would be able to provide exactly such a pulse—and that, crucially, climate models failed to account for this physical process.' It isn't the global surface temperature, it is the amount of surface ice loss that determines the fate of the planet's ecosystem. At first, the loss of ice decreases the planets albedo (makes it reflect less light, absorb more light and heat). Right now our albedo is about 0.30, and has been so since we first measured it in the 70's. That figure is across all visible wavelengths and generalized over the entire sphere. The number waxes and wanes but shows no trend. This, however, can be deceiving as it does not show a trend of the albedo shifting from the North Pole to the South over just 11 years for a total of 16% change. The
North Polar Region has lost 8% albedo from loss of ice and the Antarctic has gained that albedo and ice. Thus, the waxing waning figures we see are not random noise but Chaotic Trends. (We know that they are not random because we know that they represent shifts in ice and not 'noise').

Atwhat seems like random noise will suddenly become a strong trend toward loss of albedo and ice in the Arctic, which is currently at 40% permanent loss of year round ice. The surface temperatures will spiral upward as the albedo breaks past the point where we are losing reflectivity and absorbing heat from the sun. At that point, all of the Northern ice has melted, causing a complete breakdown in the AMOC system.

The change in density brings about the collapse of the AMOC system in the Northern hemisphere. By now the entire Southern hemisphere is as Antarctica, under miles of ice, and creeping northward.


as for time scales, people such as Guy McPherson are right that we are facing an extinction event but we will not be extinct in the next 10 years. most models predict Greenland will have ice free summers by 2050, meaning, the collapse of the AMOC system will likely occur in the second half of this century. when this happens the first initial signs will be very abrupt and will happen over a few months, possibly as short as days, oddly not that far off from 'the day after tomorrow', minus the hollywood sensationalism and speed of the freeze. the effects would be a sudden turn of storms, mostly pushing from the equator northward, with category beyond 5 hurricanes, dumping all of the heat in a sudden blast, followed by a quick drop in temperatures below zero.

over the course of a century, the temperatures would drop to as little as 100 below, possibly further. the ocean would take another century to freeze all the way down to the dirt, miles below, like antarctica is now. antarctica is the model. it was once a lush green tropical zone, frozen over in a blitz, like the ice core samples indicate, 4 miles deep in ice, in months.

If you like fairy tales you are welcome to them. Real people do not and scientists know better.

As I've stated before, young people have no experience in the real world and so they have a deep seated desire for everything they do and experience to be unique and special. And it isn't. The world goes on and on and finally as death approaches them they realize that nothing they have ever done is unique or special.

But that doesn't stop people like you from declaring anything and everything as a special case. The good things you attribute to yourself and the supposed bad things you will blame on others.

There is nothing special about a warm period. We had the Minoan, the Roman, the Medieval and this one which started 1880 or so. You know - back when the freeways were clogged with heavy traffic. We appear to now be over the center and on our way back down. And these warm periods are generally followed by cold periods - the last one was extreme - the little ice age - and hopefully the coming one will not be as extreme. None of the glaciers that formed and expanded in the little ice age has completely gotten back to their positions before the little ice age. But that didn't stop morons from crying that glaciers were melting. The fact is that asses were crying about the glacier retreat in 1910 because those young people had to feel special and unique as well.

From the New York Times Jan 5, 1978:

"An international team of specialists has concluded from eight indexes of climate that there is no end in sight to the cooling trend of the last 30 years. At least in the Northern Hemisphere. ~ The findings indicate that from 1950 to 1975 the cooling, per decade, of most climate indexes in the Northern Hemisphere was from 0.1 to 0.2 degrees Celsius"

In 1950 they had a maximum of about 5800 ground temperature monitoring stations. As of now they have less than 1500 and rely entirely upon satellite measurements. And yet they do not report the satellite data honestly. Instead they use some ground stations from areas they know have major urban heat island effects and wild-assed guess. They reported very large heating in central Africa despite the fact that they hadn't one single ground station there and the satellite data showed no heating - rather it was cooler than usual.

So you can run along with your Duck Tales from your favorite comics but the rest of the world is going alone nicely without you.

Wake wrote:

L8112 wrote:
none of this takes into account compounding factors: ocean acidification, ocean dead zones, deforestation, the collapse of the global economy, etc.
yep we are ****ed.

Over the last 300 million years the oceans have averaged a pH of 8.2. Presently they have a pH of 8.1 or about 10,000 times less acidic than soapy fresh water.

Why do you demonstrate a level of ignorance beyond belief?

Wake wrote:

L8112 wrote:
Wake, you know not what you say. Just as I said, the human mind has become a chaotic system, you are a perfect example of this-you talk yet you say nothing. You have zero degrees in anything related to science, you don't know ding-dong about anything.

Sorry stupid, I have worked over 40 years in science. In one case I assisted in obtaining a Nobel Prize in chemistry for Dr. Kary Mullis and in another I assisted gaining an Emmy Award for audio reproduction for ClearCom Inc.

I have boards still on the International Space Station and have been contacted by Lockheed to be available for work on their planned reusable space shuttle.

We have you little clowns that know absolutely nothing about science ready to scream and holler about all the things that are occurring in the world and you've never been outside of your mother's basement.

Tell us again what professional qualifications you have to talk about an extinction event.

GasGuzzler wrote:

LB911 wrote:
Salt water freezes at 17 degrees Fahrenheit.

Wow. That's some really salty water.

Dumbass. Use some common sense before you post your doomsday shit.

GasGuzzler wrote:

LB911 wrote:
Salt water freezes at 17 degrees Fahrenheit.

Wow. That's some really salty water.

L8112 wrote:
none of this takes into account compounding factors: ocean acidification, ocean dead zones, deforestation, the collapse of the global economy, etc.
yep we are ****ed.

L8112 wrote:
.... the deeper you go,...., more salinity,.....

Into the Night wrote: Credentials mean nothing here. Too many people don't believe you (including me).

GasGuzzler wrote:

LB911 wrote:
Salt water freezes at 17 degrees Fahrenheit.

Wow. That's some really salty water.

Dumbass. Use some common sense before you post your doomsday shit.

"old sick silly sleepy sleezy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner wake-me-up" woofed:...rubbing alcohol...

GreenMan wrote:

L8112 wrote:
none of this takes into account compounding factors: ocean acidification, ocean dead zones, deforestation, the collapse of the global economy, etc.
yep we are ****ed.

L8112, I think you are right about what you are saying, and it sounds like you have done a lot of research into the effects of Climate Change on the AMOC system, and what that will mean. Sounds like it is going to suck being alive then.

Do you have any plans or ideas about how to make it through this die-off event, or do you think that would be fruitless to consider?

Oh yeah, after reading through this thread, it looks like you met our stooges. They are just hanging around, trying to keep people like you out of here. Don't let them bother you. Just ignore them. Or, cyber slap them around, like I do, just for the fun of it.

L8112 wrote:

GreenMan wrote:

L8112 wrote:
none of this takes into account compounding factors: ocean acidification, ocean dead zones, deforestation, the collapse of the global economy, etc.
yep we are ****ed.

L8112, I think you are right about what you are saying, and it sounds like you have done a lot of research into the effects of Climate Change on the AMOC system, and what that will mean. Sounds like it is going to suck being alive then.

Do you have any plans or ideas about how to make it through this die-off event, or do you think that would be fruitless to consider?

Oh yeah, after reading through this thread, it looks like you met our stooges. They are just hanging around, trying to keep people like you out of here. Don't let them bother you. Just ignore them. Or, cyber slap them around, like I do, just for the fun of it.

Do I have any plans..? there isn't much we can do. The people you see here on this forum a dying breed. They are among the last group of people who will be able to deny climate change, because they think they haven't been personally effected by it yet.

Make no mistake about it, nothing is being done to stop the collapse. We are actively trying to INCREASE commerce, build our economies when there won't be any such things in 100 years, because humans will be extinct in 100 years.

Don't worry though this is all a stage play, never take any of it to seriously.

L8112 wrote:
the only thing thats dying out is the white race and their false sense of superiority. no more preferential treatment, sorry bud. donald trump has reinforced everyone's notion that conservatism is for the hypocrites and loonies who will lie cheat and swindle common people at every turn.

L8112 wrote:
"Tell you what you moron - I'm not white."

oh my gosh, plot twist!!

"Where do people like you come from? How is it that you aren't bright enough to look around you and see that you're about to get us slaughtered?"

poor lil man, his mind is contaminated with the bizarre conspiracy theories of others. you don't know what to believe, and are in a permanent state of confusion where your belief systems change on a daily basis.

L8112 wrote:

GreenMan wrote:

L8112 wrote:
none of this takes into account compounding factors: ocean acidification, ocean dead zones, deforestation, the collapse of the global economy, etc.
yep we are ****ed.

L8112, I think you are right about what you are saying, and it sounds like you have done a lot of research into the effects of Climate Change on the AMOC system, and what that will mean. Sounds like it is going to suck being alive then.

Do you have any plans or ideas about how to make it through this die-off event, or do you think that would be fruitless to consider?

Oh yeah, after reading through this thread, it looks like you met our stooges. They are just hanging around, trying to keep people like you out of here. Don't let them bother you. Just ignore them. Or, cyber slap them around, like I do, just for the fun of it.

Do I have any plans..? there isn't much we can do. The people you see here on this forum a dying breed. They are among the last group of people who will be able to deny climate change, because they think they haven't been personally effected by it yet.

L8112 wrote:
Make no mistake about it, nothing is being done to stop the collapse.

L8112 wrote:
We are actively trying to INCREASE commerce,

L8112 wrote:
build our economies

L8112 wrote:
when there won't be any such things in 100 years, because humans will be extinct in 100 years.

L8112 wrote:
Don't worry though this is all a stage play, never take any of it to seriously.

L8112 wrote:
For Aeons to come in this cosmos, planet earth will be the example of what not to do. People like wake, into the night, gas guzzler WILL watch in indifference as the planet collapses, that is their role. They do not know who, what or where they are, they do not know what is true or what is fake, their minds have become a chaotic system.

L8112 wrote:
We have put commerce, which is the engine or driving force behind this extinction event, as the most important thing on this planet.

L8112 wrote:
Such a level of selfishness malice lust, hatred and disregard for the other life forms inhabiting earth will cause an extinction event.

L8112 wrote:
10 million people starve to death each year, while 1% of the global population has 50% of the wealth.

L8112 wrote:
the only thing thats dying out is the white race and their false sense of superiority. no more preferential treatment, sorry bud. donald trump has reinforced everyone's notion that conservatism is for the hypocrites and loonies who will lie cheat and swindle common people at every turn.

Wake wrote:

L8112 wrote:
the only thing thats dying out is the white race and their false sense of superiority. no more preferential treatment, sorry bud. donald trump has reinforced everyone's notion that conservatism is for the hypocrites and loonies who will lie cheat and swindle common people at every turn.

Tell you what you moron - I'm not white. And blacks are disappearing. And illegal aliens are on the way back across the border.

Wake wrote:
It only takes one exceedingly stupid person like you to think that whites are disappearing when you can drive across the US and never see one black face outside of major city limits.

Wake wrote:
Where California is going to vote Republicans back into office because they cannot survive without subsidies from the Federal Government due to "sanctuary cities laws" which ONLY help illegal felons and enrage the citizens of this country.

L8112 wrote:
genocide is the extermination of a group of people via-murder. I never said that, white people are 'dying off' because they are not reproducing fast enough and are mixing with other races.

L8112 wrote:
"Commerce isn't cheating and swindling. You don't do that to your customers and survive in the world of business very long."
is probably the most ridiculous statement ever uttered. thats why none of the banksters who caused the 2008 financial crisis are in prison.

L8112 wrote:
commerce has exploited, swindled and cheated since it was first created.

L8112 wrote:
european colonialism was the result of commerce

L8112 wrote:
and was a crime against humanity.

L8112 wrote:
commerce is causing a mass extinction event.

L8112 wrote:
"Tell you what you moron - I'm not white."

oh my gosh, plot twist!!

"Where do people like you come from? How is it that you aren't bright enough to look around you and see that you're about to get us slaughtered?"

poor lil man, his mind is contaminated with the bizarre conspiracy theories of others. you don't know what to believe, and are in a permanent state of confusion where your belief systems change on a daily basis.

Into the Night wrote:

L8112 wrote:
genocide is the extermination of a group of people via-murder. I never said that, white people are 'dying off' because they are not reproducing fast enough and are mixing with other races.

ALL races are mixed, dumbass. There is no such thing as 'pure' white, black, red, yellow, or any other race.

You can take your racism and stuff it.

L8112 wrote:
"Commerce isn't cheating and swindling. You don't do that to your customers and survive in the world of business very long."
is probably the most ridiculous statement ever uttered. thats why none of the banksters who caused the 2008 financial crisis are in prison.

The one 'bankster' that caused it IS the government. It was the Federal Reserve. As far as private banks that played a role, many of them went out of business...permanently. There are also some 35 bankers that went to jail for crimes related to the crash.

L8112 wrote:
commerce has exploited, swindled and cheated since it was first created.

So stop participating in it. Stop buying food, water, housing, and...oh yes...your internet access.

L8112 wrote:
european colonialism was the result of commerce

No, it was a result of colonialism...governments feeling they could muscle in on anybody they wanted to. You are confusing governments with commerce.

L8112 wrote:
and was a crime against humanity.

Was it? Did you know that the Sun STILL never sets on the British empire? Don't see anybody rejecting it at the moment.

L8112 wrote:
commerce is causing a mass extinction event.

Let's just see how long you can remain alive without food, water, housing, or your internet.

GreenMan wrote:

L8112 wrote:
"Tell you what you moron - I'm not white."

oh my gosh, plot twist!!

"Where do people like you come from? How is it that you aren't bright enough to look around you and see that you're about to get us slaughtered?"

poor lil man, his mind is contaminated with the bizarre conspiracy theories of others. you don't know what to believe, and are in a permanent state of confusion where your belief systems change on a daily basis.

It doesn't matter if you are white or not. If you are not red, then you will leave this continent, or die here. That includes your family and your descendants. The people who were here before we came and wiped them out get their land back.

I've heard of a myth that might be of interest to those who are not interested in moving back to Europe, or Africa, of Asia, where their ancestry came from. I for one, am not interested in going back to the UK to live. But there is a myth, which could be prophecy, that indicates that the Temple of God, and the real city of Jerusalem will be built in North America, in the oldest of mountain chains, the Appalachians. If that happens, then maybe you can live there.

But being a man who considers the odds of things happening or not, I would suggest that you learn how to speak Arabian, or some other language that is spoken where your ancestors are from. And that's because the True White Brother doesn't want no lying, stinking, overly aggressive, bad mannered, pill popping, moronic nincompoops areound him.

He will be building the city that teaches peace, and I doubt you have qualities necessary to live there.

I'm thinking the best thing you can do is spend more time learning, and less time blabbing.

GreenMan wrote:

L8112 wrote:
"Tell you what you moron - I'm not white."

oh my gosh, plot twist!!

"Where do people like you come from? How is it that you aren't bright enough to look around you and see that you're about to get us slaughtered?"

poor lil man, his mind is contaminated with the bizarre conspiracy theories of others. you don't know what to believe, and are in a permanent state of confusion where your belief systems change on a daily basis.

It doesn't matter if you are white or not. If you are not red, then you will leave this continent, or die here. That includes your family and your descendants. The people who were here before we came and wiped them out get their land back.

I've heard of a myth that might be of interest to those who are not interested in moving back to Europe, or Africa, of Asia, where their ancestry came from. I for one, am not interested in going back to the UK to live. But there is a myth, which could be prophecy, that indicates that the Temple of God, and the real city of Jerusalem will be built in North America, in the oldest of mountain chains, the Appalachians. If that happens, then maybe you can live there.

But being a man who considers the odds of things happening or not, I would suggest that you learn how to speak Arabian, or some other language that is spoken where your ancestors are from. And that's because the True White Brother doesn't want no lying, stinking, overly aggressive, bad mannered, pill popping, moronic nincompoops areound him.

He will be building the city that teaches peace, and I doubt you have qualities necessary to live there.

I'm thinking the best thing you can do is spend more time learning, and less time blabbing.

"old sick silly sleepy sleezy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner wake-me-up" woofed: If I can find you....

Into the Night wrote: The freezing of ocean water produces fresh water.