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Why can't you say Venus is hotter than Mercury because Venus got CO2?



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10-12-2019 20:12
James___
★★★★★
(2957)
https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/news/putin-attacks-strange-european-plans-to-reduce-gas-usage/
11-12-2019 00:09
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3316)
Into the Night wrote:The Moon has an atmosphere. You even admitted it.
It is a true as saying the temperature of Denver is unknowable.

There is a logical argument, which can be made, and which is dead wrong.

Yes you can know the temperature of Denver.

No the Moon does not have an atmosphere.

FOR THE PURPOSES OF ANY USEFUL DISCUSSION ON ANYTHING AT ALL

But then you are hell bent on making this forum useless with quite a lot accomplished in that regard.
11-12-2019 01:25
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(12950)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:The Moon has an atmosphere. You even admitted it.
It is a true as saying the temperature of Denver is unknowable.

Repetition. You keep posting the same nonsense over and over. The temperature of Denver is unknown. RQAA.
tmiddles wrote:
There is a logical argument, which can be made, and which is dead wrong.

You deny logic. Argument of the stone fallacy.
tmiddles wrote:
Yes you can know the temperature of Denver.

No, you can't. Not enough thermometers and the area of Denver remains undefined.
tmiddles wrote:
No the Moon does not have an atmosphere.

Yes it does. Thin as it is, it's there.
tmiddles wrote:
FOR THE PURPOSES OF ANY USEFUL DISCUSSION ON ANYTHING AT ALL

YOU are the one that keeps bringing it up. Repetition fallacy.
tmiddles wrote:
But then you are hell bent on making this forum useless with quite a lot accomplished in that regard.

You just keep repeating yourself. Why don't you try actually debating?


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
13-12-2019 10:37
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3316)
Into the Night wrote:The temperature of Denver is unknown. RQAA.
Anyone else need to read this moron's tombstone here? There you have it.
13-12-2019 15:13
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1726)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:The temperature of Denver is unknown. RQAA.
Anyone else need to read this moron's tombstone here? There you have it.


Ok Genius,

6:00 am in Denver, Friday 12/13/2019.

Weather.com has Denver at 35F

Accuweather says 39F

Weather underground says 36F

Channel 4 news has 34F

Channel 9 news has 36F

Buckley Air Force base has 34F

Sooooo, what's the temperature of Denver?


gasguzzler, calling the jet stream the "Norwegian jet stream" is a bigoted statement. -James-
Edited on 13-12-2019 15:22
13-12-2019 16:43
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7270)
GasGuzzler wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:The temperature of Denver is unknown. RQAA.
Anyone else need to read this moron's tombstone here? There you have it.


Ok Genius,

6:00 am in Denver, Friday 12/13/2019.

Weather.com has Denver at 35F

Accuweather says 39F

Weather underground says 36F

Channel 4 news has 34F

Channel 9 news has 36F

Buckley Air Force base has 34F

Sooooo, what's the temperature of Denver?


Sooooo, what constitutes "Denver"?

[note: you omitted my psychic reading of Denver's temperature of 31F]


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
13-12-2019 16:59
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1726)
GasGuzzler wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:The temperature of Denver is unknown. RQAA.
Anyone else need to read this moron's tombstone here? There you have it.


Ok Genius,

6:00 am in Denver, Friday 12/13/2019.

Weather.com has Denver at 35F

Accuweather says 39F

Weather underground says 36F

Channel 4 news has 34F

Channel 9 news has 36F

Buckley Air Force base has 34F

Sooooo, what's the temperature of Denver?


IBdaMann wrote:, what constitutes "Denver"?

I'm going with "the general area of central Colorado just upslope from the lee side of the Rockies". Did I get it right?

IBdaMann wrote:[note: you omitted my psychic reading of Denver's temperature of 31F]

There it is! THAT is the temperature of Denver!!


gasguzzler, calling the jet stream the "Norwegian jet stream" is a bigoted statement. -James-
13-12-2019 18:56
James___
★★★★★
(2957)
GasGuzzler wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:The temperature of Denver is unknown. RQAA.
Anyone else need to read this moron's tombstone here? There you have it.


Ok Genius,

6:00 am in Denver, Friday 12/13/2019.

Weather.com has Denver at 35F

Accuweather says 39F

Weather underground says 36F

Channel 4 news has 34F

Channel 9 news has 36F

Buckley Air Force base has 34F

Sooooo, what's the temperature of Denver?



If you were to average those temperatures it's about 35.7° F. or about 2° C. That would allow for variance caused by big buildings, terrain and air circulation. See? There is a simple answer
13-12-2019 19:44
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(12950)
James___ wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:The temperature of Denver is unknown. RQAA.
Anyone else need to read this moron's tombstone here? There you have it.


Ok Genius,

6:00 am in Denver, Friday 12/13/2019.

Weather.com has Denver at 35F

Accuweather says 39F

Weather underground says 36F

Channel 4 news has 34F

Channel 9 news has 36F

Buckley Air Force base has 34F

Sooooo, what's the temperature of Denver?



If you were to average those temperatures it's about 35.7° F. or about 2° C. That would allow for variance caused by big buildings, terrain and air circulation. See? There is a simple answer


Not good enough. These thermometers are not equally spaced. There are many other points in Denver that are unknown (no thermometers at all). An average by itself is meaningless. The margin of error MUST accompany any average to give it any kind of meaning. That number is a required calculation in statistical math. This is not instrument tolerance I am talking about here. It is the way you include all those unknown points in the result.

Temperature can and does vary as much as 20 deg F per mile.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
13-12-2019 21:04
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7270)
James___ wrote: If you were to average those temperatures

You obviously haven't been paying attention. Are those the only temperatures to be averaged? By insisting on not defining the specific volume you are referring to as "Denver" you are begging to be mocked and your special education teachers questioned.

Why did you omit my "psychic temperature reading"? You cannot, on the one hand, claim that accuracy is actually important such that you won't accept a mere guess into your calculations ... but on the other hand claim that accuracy is not important and that you're fine with an average of the first few temperature readings you get as "good enough" for a span of many square miles covering different elevations.



.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
13-12-2019 21:26
spot
★★★★☆
(1323)
IBdaMann wrote:
James___ wrote: If you were to average those temperatures

You obviously haven't been paying attention. Are those the only temperatures to be averaged? By insisting on not defining the specific volume you are referring to as "Denver" you are begging to be mocked and your special education teachers questioned.

Why did you omit my "psychic temperature reading"? You cannot, on the one hand, claim that accuracy is actually important such that you won't accept a mere guess into your calculations ... but on the other hand claim that accuracy is not important and that you're fine with an average of the first few temperature readings you get as "good enough" for a span of many square miles covering different elevations.



.


So you don't know if it's hotter then Venus?


IBdaMann wrote:
"Air" is not a body in and of itself. Ergo it is not a blackbody.


Planck's law describes the spectral density of electromagnetic radiation emitted by a black body in thermal equilibrium at a given temperature T.
13-12-2019 21:30
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(12950)
spot wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
James___ wrote: If you were to average those temperatures

You obviously haven't been paying attention. Are those the only temperatures to be averaged? By insisting on not defining the specific volume you are referring to as "Denver" you are begging to be mocked and your special education teachers questioned.

Why did you omit my "psychic temperature reading"? You cannot, on the one hand, claim that accuracy is actually important such that you won't accept a mere guess into your calculations ... but on the other hand claim that accuracy is not important and that you're fine with an average of the first few temperature readings you get as "good enough" for a span of many square miles covering different elevations.



.


So you don't know if it's hotter then Venus?

Repetitious question already answered. RQAA


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
13-12-2019 21:47
James___
★★★★★
(2957)
IBdaMann wrote:
James___ wrote: If you were to average those temperatures

You obviously haven't been paying attention. Are those the only temperatures to be averaged? By insisting on not defining the specific volume you are referring to as "Denver" you are begging to be mocked and your special education teachers questioned.

Why did you omit my "psychic temperature reading"? You cannot, on the one hand, claim that accuracy is actually important such that you won't accept a mere guess into your calculations ... but on the other hand claim that accuracy is not important and that you're fine with an average of the first few temperature readings you get as "good enough" for a span of many square miles covering different elevations.



.



Once again you are demonstrating that an understanding of philosophy is not the same as understanding science.
You seem to be offering a Distraction Fallacy and a Projection Fallacy.
13-12-2019 23:55
spot
★★★★☆
(1323)
Into the Night wrote:
spot wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
James___ wrote: If you were to average those temperatures

You obviously haven't been paying attention. Are those the only temperatures to be averaged? By insisting on not defining the specific volume you are referring to as "Denver" you are begging to be mocked and your special education teachers questioned.

Why did you omit my "psychic temperature reading"? You cannot, on the one hand, claim that accuracy is actually important such that you won't accept a mere guess into your calculations ... but on the other hand claim that accuracy is not important and that you're fine with an average of the first few temperature readings you get as "good enough" for a span of many square miles covering different elevations.



.


So you don't know if it's hotter then Venus?

Repetitious question already answered. RQAA


I don't recall you answering that surely you can repeat yourself.


IBdaMann wrote:
"Air" is not a body in and of itself. Ergo it is not a blackbody.


Planck's law describes the spectral density of electromagnetic radiation emitted by a black body in thermal equilibrium at a given temperature T.
14-12-2019 02:54
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(12950)
James___ wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
James___ wrote: If you were to average those temperatures

You obviously haven't been paying attention. Are those the only temperatures to be averaged? By insisting on not defining the specific volume you are referring to as "Denver" you are begging to be mocked and your special education teachers questioned.

Why did you omit my "psychic temperature reading"? You cannot, on the one hand, claim that accuracy is actually important such that you won't accept a mere guess into your calculations ... but on the other hand claim that accuracy is not important and that you're fine with an average of the first few temperature readings you get as "good enough" for a span of many square miles covering different elevations.



.



Once again you are demonstrating that an understanding of philosophy is not the same as understanding science.
You seem to be offering a Distraction Fallacy and a Projection Fallacy.


No such fallacy. Buzzword fallacy.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
14-12-2019 02:55
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(12950)
spot wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
spot wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
James___ wrote: If you were to average those temperatures

You obviously haven't been paying attention. Are those the only temperatures to be averaged? By insisting on not defining the specific volume you are referring to as "Denver" you are begging to be mocked and your special education teachers questioned.

Why did you omit my "psychic temperature reading"? You cannot, on the one hand, claim that accuracy is actually important such that you won't accept a mere guess into your calculations ... but on the other hand claim that accuracy is not important and that you're fine with an average of the first few temperature readings you get as "good enough" for a span of many square miles covering different elevations.



.


So you don't know if it's hotter then Venus?

Repetitious question already answered. RQAA


I don't recall you answering that surely you can repeat yourself.


To bad. Pay attention next time I answer someone when they make this mistake for the first time.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
14-12-2019 05:06
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7270)
James___ wrote: Once again you are demonstrating that an understanding of philosophy is not the same as understanding science.

James__, pay attention ... just for a moment.

What you are demonstrating is an inability to recognize mathematics when it's right in front of you.

So ... you have presented a contradiction. I have given you an informal reductio ad absurdum. You have no answer.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
14-12-2019 12:55
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3316)
GasGuzzler wrote:
Ok Genius,

6:00 am in Denver, Friday 12/13/2019.

Weather.com has Denver at 35F

Accuweather says 39F

Weather underground says 36F

Channel 4 news has 34F

Channel 9 news has 36F

Buckley Air Force base has 34F

Sooooo, what's the temperature of Denver?

Ah but you have nailed it GG! Now it's not my argument, it's reality, ALL THINGS WITH A TEMPERATURE HAVE A RANGE! All things (you too). We CAN KNOW the temperature of something which means knowing it's range.

To answer your question: With that data we can confidently state that the temperature of Denver ranges from 34-39F at ground level.

We can also confidently conclude that Venus is hotter than Denver.

Here's my question for you GG. Do you believe the temperature of ANYTHING AT ALL can be known? If so how may zeros do you put in your answer?

let's take a block of steel on a hot plate in the lab with a temperature reading of 80C. Is it:
80 C
80.0 C
80.0000000000000 C
?
Isn't inevitable in a situation like this that one molecule of the steel block would be at 80.001 C and another molecule at 80.002 C at the same moment? Not an error of the thermometer but actually having differing thermal energies? No?
How about 80.0000000000000000001 C and 80.00000000000000000000002 C ?

Seriously, tell me what you think.
14-12-2019 19:30
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(12950)
tmiddles wrote:
GasGuzzler wrote:
Ok Genius,

6:00 am in Denver, Friday 12/13/2019.

Weather.com has Denver at 35F

Accuweather says 39F

Weather underground says 36F

Channel 4 news has 34F

Channel 9 news has 36F

Buckley Air Force base has 34F

Sooooo, what's the temperature of Denver?

Ah but you have nailed it GG! Now it's not my argument, it's reality, ALL THINGS WITH A TEMPERATURE HAVE A RANGE!
A range isn't a temperature.
tmiddles wrote:
All things (you too). We CAN KNOW the temperature of something which means knowing it's range.
A range isn't a temperature.
tmiddles wrote:
To answer your question: With that data we can confidently state that the temperature of Denver ranges from 34-39F at ground level.
A range isn't a temperature.
tmiddles wrote:
We can also confidently conclude that Venus is hotter than Denver.
How?
tmiddles wrote:
Here's my question for you GG. Do you believe the temperature of ANYTHING AT ALL can be known? If so how may zeros do you put in your answer?
Precision isn't a temperature.
tmiddles wrote:
let's take a block of steel on a hot plate in the lab with a temperature reading of 80C. Is it:
80 C
80.0 C
80.0000000000000 C
?
Isn't inevitable in a situation like this that one molecule of the steel block would be at 80.001 C and another molecule at 80.002 C at the same moment? Not an error of the thermometer but actually having differing thermal energies? No?
How about 80.0000000000000000001 C and 80.00000000000000000000002 C ?

Question was already answered. RQAA.
tmiddles wrote:
Seriously, tell me what you think.

I think you are still trying to redefine:
temperature
heat
radiance
climate change
global warming
margin of error
instrument tolerance

by ignoring:
1st law of thermodynamics (you can't create energy out of nothing)
2nd law of thermodynamics (heat does not flow from cold to hot)
statistical mathematics

so that you can continue to preach your religion.

You continually repeat asking questions that have already been answered.
You continually distort and take things out of context.
You continually point to references where you have done so and call your distorted version the reference.
You continually attempt extreme arguments of no consequence.
You continually make up numbers and treat them as 'data'.
You continually shift context.
You continually create models, based on random numbers, assuming them to be 'data', and shift the context in those models, and call that a 'proof'.
You continually lie about what people have said to you.

You're a liar, dude. Your own religion has brought you to this. You even lie to yourself.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Edited on 14-12-2019 19:35
14-12-2019 20:16
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7270)
tmiddles wrote: ALL THINGS WITH A TEMPERATURE HAVE A RANGE!

This is gibber-babble. Could you explain what you mean by this and how it applies to things that don't have a single temperature?


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
14-12-2019 22:51
keepit
★★★★☆
(1607)
Too much argumentative nonsense going on here.
Try to be productive.
14-12-2019 22:59
James___
★★★★★
(2957)
keepit wrote:
Too much argumentative nonsense going on here.
Try to be productive.



If ibdm said that 2 + 2 = 5, tmiddles would bite.
14-12-2019 23:01
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7270)
keepit wrote: Too much argumentative nonsense going on here.
Try to be productive.

I take it you don't see the problem here.

It's your responsibility to select forums that discuss down to your level. You're a moron. You shouldn't be here at the adult table. Your inability to grasp the meanings of the words is not the fault of everyone else.

Here is an example of a more suitable forum for you:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/yetanotherpoliticsboard/

It is a safe space for both snowflakes and morons. You'll fit in quite nicely.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
14-12-2019 23:02
keepit
★★★★☆
(1607)
IBDM,
You say stuff like that last post and yet you whine about being attacked.
14-12-2019 23:04
keepit
★★★★☆
(1607)
James,
Tmid does like to engage in issues.
More than i do anyhow.
Let him roll on, he brings a lot to the table.
15-12-2019 01:48
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7270)
keepit wrote: IBDM, You say stuff like that last post and yet you whine about being attacked.

When did I "whine"? What did I write?


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
15-12-2019 02:55
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3316)
Into the Night wrote:
I think you are still trying to redefine:
temperature

Challenge to ITN/IBD: Identify the temperature of anything you like. Be sure to determine how many decimal places you'll go to, and explain why every molecule of the object you've selected has exactly the same thermal energy all of the time if that's what you believe.

Tempereture is ALWAYS a range.

IBdaMann wrote:...things that don't have a single temperature?

Do you mean you belive there are objects with a temperature that doesn't fluctuate over time or from molecule to molecule at all? Every object has multiple temperature over both time and location.

keepit wrote:
Too much argumentative nonsense going on here.
Try to be productive.
Yep it's essentially a distinction between abstract thought like a math equation and reality whick never obeys our wish for any kind of purity or perfection.

keepit wrote:,
Tmid does like to engage in issues.
I'll admit I enjoy drawing out the idiocy of the climate denial of not only ITN/IBD but many others who play the same games. It is actually productive to refine proof of a lie

"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is ever valid for them.
15-12-2019 03:06
keepit
★★★★☆
(1607)
Tmid,
I didn't mean to say that you argued too much. Rather you are just more thorough than i care to be.
15-12-2019 03:12
James___
★★★★★
(2957)
keepit wrote:
James,
Tmid does like to engage in issues.
More than i do anyhow.
Let him roll on, he brings a lot to the table.



The issue might actually be Does the National Weather Service use its Boulder-Denver temperature reading at Buckley Airforce base? If so, what's being discussed? A TV station might take it in town where the heat island effect increases the temperature?


https://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?textField1=39.7392&textField2=-104.9903#.XfWGox5Ok0M
15-12-2019 05:29
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3316)
keepit wrote:... you are just more thorough than i care to be.
The question of if it's a waste of time to debate trolls is of course one we have to ask as well. I view ITN/IBD as a pretty good representation of a core group of insincere deniers out there and using them to learn to dismantle the arguments is useful.

James___ wrote: A TV station might take it in town where the heat island effect increases the temperature?
Exactly! Good example. GG nailed it. Denver has multiple temperatures from one point in space to another and from one moment to the next. Just like everything in the known universe.

"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is ever valid for them
Edited on 15-12-2019 05:52
15-12-2019 05:30
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7270)
tmiddles wrote: Do you mean you belive there are objects with a temperature that doesn't fluctuate over time or from molecule to molecule at all? Every object has multiple temperature over both time and location.

Exactly. So the answer to the question is what?



.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
15-12-2019 05:51
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3316)
IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote: Do you mean you belive there are objects with a temperature that doesn't fluctuate over time or from molecule to molecule at all? Every object has multiple temperature over both time and location.

Exactly. So the answer to the question is what?
As usual you offer no answer yourself.

The answer to the question of "What is the temperature of ____________?" is a range of temperatures where a mean temperature within a margin of error as well as the high and low temperature can be determined.

So a block of steel sitting on a hot plate in the lab: I would get it wrong if I measured the top of the steel block and concluded that was the temperature for the whole block. The top surface is radiating into the room, conducting with the air of the room, and will be slightly cooler than the bottom of the block that is in contact with the hot plate. I would have to calculate the likely distribution of thermal energy through the block. Having a good measurement of the bottom and top surface it would likely be sufficient to average the two.

A doctor will measure your body temperature (which can also be "Known") by putting a thermometer under your tongue. This is because a doctor is not interested in the temperature of you extremities but of your internal organs and the tongue is "pretty close", it's "good enough" for the purpose.

But "Sufficient" is the key word. How precisely do you need to calculate the temperature? This will depend on why you want to know. For the temperature of Denver: Are you planning a picnic or trying to claim there is an 0.25 degree Celsius increase in mean temperature over the last 50 years?

Bottom line is to claim that something cannot be known because it can not be precisely known is a false argument. Because the universe refuses to cooperate in providing a precise anything. There is no "Even Steven Law" or anything in the world around us willing to satisfy our rational desire for purity.

"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is ever valid for them
15-12-2019 06:56
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7270)
tmiddles wrote: As usual you offer no answer yourself.

You noticed that that happens every time I am the one asking the question. You should be concerned that you find that strange.

tmiddles wrote: The answer to the question of "What is the temperature of ____________?" is a range of temperatures where a mean temperature within a margin of error as well as the high and low temperature can be determined.

Notice that you have never offered as a temperature for anything larger than a room any sort of range of temperatures with any margin of error. Instead, you have only declared temperatures to be zero-dimentional constants with no margin of error. Ar you now admitting that you have been lying all this time or are you just lying now?


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
15-12-2019 07:20
James___
★★★★★
(2957)
tmiddles wrote:
keepit wrote:... you are just more thorough than i care to be.
The question of if it's a waste of time to debate trolls is of course one we have to ask as well. I view ITN/IBD as a pretty good representation of a core group of insincere deniers out there and using them to learn to dismantle the arguments is useful.

James___ wrote: A TV station might take it in town where the heat island effect increases the temperature?
Exactly! Good example. GG nailed it. Denver has multiple temperatures from one point in space to another and from one moment to the next. Just like everything in the known universe.

"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is ever valid for them



Nothing personal but that's a little too basic for me.
15-12-2019 07:48
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3316)
James___ wrote:
Nothing personal but that's a little too basic for me.
No doubt, for me too. I think there are two areas here:
1- Understanding Climate Change and the science behind it
2- Clarifying the science for the public

I think both are worthwhile.

IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote: As usual you offer no answer yourself.

You noticed that that happens every time I am the one asking the question. You should be concerned that you find that strange.
As usual you ignored my question:
tmiddles wrote:
Challenge to ITN/IBD: Identify the temperature of anything you like....


IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote: The answer to the question of "What is the temperature of ____________?" is a range of temperatures where a mean temperature within a margin of error as well as the high and low temperature can be determined.

Notice that you have never offered as a temperature for anything larger than a room any sort of range of temperatures with any margin of error. ...

When we talk about temperature we talk about the mean temp most of the time. I fully admit I accept the measurements taken by others and do not take my own directly. But your claim is false. Just up on the page, using the data supplied by GG, I stated:
tmiddles wrote:...the temperature of Denver ranges from 34-39F at ground level.
I also identified the hottest and coldest temps on Earth as a range in another topic. I've been making the point that temperature, the unregulated movement of molecules, has to have a variance from molecule to molecule and moment to moment.

As opposed to your point which is..... Well nothing. You have made no point.

"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is ever valid for them
15-12-2019 16:44
James___
★★★★★
(2957)
tmiddles wrote:
James___ wrote:
Nothing personal but that's a little too basic for me.
No doubt, for me too. I think there are two areas here:
1- Understanding Climate Change and the science behind it
2- Clarifying the science for the public

I think both are worthwhile.




Since you live in Denver, what relationship between air pressure, CO2 levels and temperature has changed? I live in central Kentucky and anyone who watches the weather on TV will know that the local temperature will vary.
I mean if there's cloud cover, warmer in the winter or at night but cooler in the summer. I hope GG is learning something.
It rains more in Seattle than in Spokane just as it snows more west of the Rockies than in Denver. Mountains increase resistance to clouds moving over them. This causes compression. As a result clouds shed mass so they can rise/be pushed over terrain that rises sharply in elevation. In cities, skyscrapers like Denver has can increase the temperature because of light reflecting off of skyscrapers. Wind velocities can increase because of the venturi effect that tall buildings can create.
Those 2 effects caused by skyscrapers along with black body radiation being emitted by the pavement can create a thermal lift. This can also change local air patterns as cooler air masses can split into 2 weather patterns, and once past a city can merge again. Saw that when living outside of Atlanta, GA. They needed rain but the city of Atlanta split a storm into a 2 storm cells that merged east of Atlanta.
But to understand basic climate change, the relationship between air pressure, temperature and humidity is what would show it. That's if the composition of the atmosphere is influencing it. If not, then if the climate change is natural, those 3 values should maintain a relationship based on the heat in the atmosphere.
On the west coast and across the US, El Ninos and LA Nina's, need to be known because they influence the jet stream.
15-12-2019 17:26
James___
★★★★★
(2957)
The link is to a quick sketch I made. It shows the basic air flow through and around a large city.
As a weather system moves towards a city, it will have 2 slower moving currents that tend to go around the city. At the same time wind speed through the city can increase.
When there is slower moving air turning away from the main flow into the city it will increase wind velocities further from downtown. These changes in air pressure and wind velocity can cause variations in snowfall and temperature around a city like Denver. Around Ames, Iowa? Might not be noticeable.
Depending on the reflectivity of the surface of skyscrapers, the amount of light that is refracted/back scattered can be significant.
Maybe tmiddles can measure the snowfall around Denver the next time a system moves through? Then we could see if there is a pattern around downtown Denver. Weather maps for air pressure, wind velocity, etc. can be looked at as well. Then everyone should be on the same page about some things that influences everyday weather.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/SzZkUvRZechRXAMe9

tmiddles, not sure if you'd want to put up signs around Denver asking people if they could but a combined barometric pressure thermometer to take measurements in the morning and evening as well as snowfall. Denver is a large city and for something like that, it might take about 20 locations in and around Denver to have a good idea how a weather system moves through and around Denver.
Something like that would actually be highly educational for this forum. And some people around Denver might find such a project interesting.
Edited on 15-12-2019 17:36
15-12-2019 20:51
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(12950)
keepit wrote:
IBDM,
You say stuff like that last post and yet you whine about being attacked.


He didn't. YOU whine about being attacked. Inversion fallacy.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
15-12-2019 20:56
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(12950)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
I think you are still trying to redefine:
temperature

Challenge to ITN/IBD: Identify the temperature of anything you like. Be sure to determine how many decimal places you'll go to, and explain why every molecule of the object you've selected has exactly the same thermal energy all of the time if that's what you believe.

Void argument fallacy.
tmiddles wrote:
Tempereture is ALWAYS a range.

A single measured value is not a range.
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:...things that don't have a single temperature?

Do you mean you belive there are objects with a temperature that doesn't fluctuate over time or from molecule to molecule at all? Every object has multiple temperature over both time and location.

Irrelevance fallacy. You are simply justifying a goalpost fallacy again.
tmiddles wrote:
keepit wrote:
Too much argumentative nonsense going on here.
Try to be productive.
Yep it's essentially a distinction between abstract thought like a math equation and reality whick never obeys our wish for any kind of purity or perfection.

Define 'reality'. Describe how a math equation differs from 'reality'.
tmiddles wrote:
keepit wrote:,
Tmid does like to engage in issues.
I'll admit I enjoy drawing out the idiocy of the climate denial of not only ITN/IBD but many others who play the same games.

Define 'climate change'. Define 'global warming'. Define 'climate crisis'.
tmiddles wrote:
It is actually productive to refine proof of a lie

Word salad. Try English. It works better.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
15-12-2019 20:57
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(12950)
James___ wrote:
keepit wrote:
James,
Tmid does like to engage in issues.
More than i do anyhow.
Let him roll on, he brings a lot to the table.



The issue might actually be Does the National Weather Service use its Boulder-Denver temperature reading at Buckley Airforce base? If so, what's being discussed? A TV station might take it in town where the heat island effect increases the temperature?


https://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?textField1=39.7392&textField2=-104.9903#.XfWGox5Ok0M


Certainly it uses it. It stores it in its database and then performs bad math upon it.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
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