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05-10-2016 23:50
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
Into the Night wrote:
jwoodward48 wrote:
Well, gee, I guess I can't refute "you support cancer". You've totally won me over. [/sarcasm]

Why can't it work?


Socialism has no price discovery. Any money in a commune is essentially meaningless.


Well, huh, I guess somebody wasn't listening when I said

THERE IS NO MONEY IN TRUE SOCIALISM

Capitalism has price discovery. Any money there has a value and unit of account.


Yeah. Capitalism has another thing - it has money. That distinguishes it from socialism, because socialism doesn't have money.

In addition, socialism has little or no incentive to advance a product to be competitive anywhere. There is no need in the commune.


Well, I guess you'd just be the one **** that sits there and eats without working. I guess maybe, just maybe, we could have "from each according to their ability, to each according to their work". Maybe. We don't even need money for that! Just "if you work, you get what you need". Done. People now work.

This means that socialism must trade with a capitalist system to give the money it uses a value and unit of account. Unfortunately, the products coming from the commune, although they do go through price discovery on the outside market, cannot compete effectively with better products produced elsewhere. The demand for the commune's products is low, hence the price is low. So low that it costs more to produce the commodity in the first place (since the commune had not incentive to make things efficient either).


Wait, what? Why do we need this "price discovery", and why can't we make it ourselves?

Besides, socialism can be self-sufficient.

This means the commune must steal to survive. Since it cannot produce everything itself, what it can't produce must be stolen from a capitalist system that does produce it.


Margaret Thatcher, eh? Parrot.


"Heads on a science
Apart" - Coldplay, The Scientist

IBdaMann wrote:
No, science doesn't insist that, ergo I don't insist that.

I am the Ninja Scientist! Beware!
Edited on 05-10-2016 23:50
06-10-2016 00:16
Into the Night
★★★★★
(8642)
jwoodward48 wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
jwoodward48 wrote:
Well, gee, I guess I can't refute "you support cancer". You've totally won me over. [/sarcasm]

Why can't it work?


Socialism has no price discovery. Any money in a commune is essentially meaningless.


Well, huh, I guess somebody wasn't listening when I said

THERE IS NO MONEY IN TRUE SOCIALISM

That's why.
jwoodward48 wrote:
Capitalism has price discovery. Any money there has a value and unit of account.


Yeah. Capitalism has another thing - it has money. That distinguishes it from socialism, because socialism doesn't have money.

Perhaps you had better ask the question of yourself: What is money?
jwoodward48 wrote:
In addition, socialism has little or no incentive to advance a product to be competitive anywhere. There is no need in the commune.


Well, I guess you'd just be the one **** that sits there and eats without working. I guess maybe, just maybe, we could have "from each according to their ability, to each according to their work". Maybe. We don't even need money for that! Just "if you work, you get what you need". Done. People now work.

Ah...so now the commune now requires 'work' from its members? Doesn't the commune provide for all? What is your 'work' worth to the commune?
jwoodward48 wrote:
This means that socialism must trade with a capitalist system to give the money it uses a value and unit of account. Unfortunately, the products coming from the commune, although they do go through price discovery on the outside market, cannot compete effectively with better products produced elsewhere. The demand for the commune's products is low, hence the price is low. So low that it costs more to produce the commodity in the first place (since the commune had not incentive to make things efficient either).


Wait, what? Why do we need this "price discovery", and why can't we make it ourselves?

You need some kind of money. There is none in a commune.
jwoodward48 wrote:
Besides, socialism can be self-sufficient.
Does your commune have the ability to build your own personal computer and program its operating system and all the applications for it? How about the raw materials that don't exist in your area? Can you create seed for your corn crop if you haven't got a corn crop to start with?
jwoodward48 wrote:

This means the commune must steal to survive. Since it cannot produce everything itself, what it can't produce must be stolen from a capitalist system that does produce it.


Margaret Thatcher, eh? Parrot.

Thatcher said this? Good for her!


The Parrot Killer
06-10-2016 00:16
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(4267)
jwoodward48 wrote:THERE IS NO MONEY IN TRUE SOCIALISM

I hope you are aware that you don't get to determine what constitutes "true" socialism. Look up the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

jwoodward48 wrote: Yeah. Capitalism has another thing - it has money. That distinguishes it from socialism, because socialism doesn't have money.

Explain why this is necessarily the case.

jwoodward48 wrote: Well, I guess you'd just be the one **** that sits there and eats without working. I guess maybe, just maybe, we could have "from each according to their ability, to each according to their work". Maybe. We don't even need money for that! Just "if you work, you get what you need". Done. People now work.

Marxism fails because it is based on the mistaken axiom that human nature is something very different from what it actually is.

jwoodward48 wrote:Wait, what? Why do we need this "price discovery", and why can't we make it ourselves?

That's the problem. We make the determination. No government can do that for us. There you have the framework for failure.

jwoodward48 wrote:Besides, socialism can be self-sufficient.

Socialism can never be self-sufficient.. It can only collapse and fail.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
06-10-2016 00:46
jwoodward48
★★★★☆
(1537)
IBdaMann wrote:
jwoodward48 wrote:THERE IS NO MONEY IN TRUE SOCIALISM

I hope you are aware that you don't get to determine what constitutes "true" socialism. Look up the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.


Hey! Hey! IB! There was an idiot that said that AGW is false because ALIENS. WHICH MEANS THAT YOU ARE WRONG. What do you mean he wasn't a true rational person? YOU ARE MAKING THE NO TRUE SCOTSMAN FALLACY.

jwoodward48 wrote: Yeah. Capitalism has another thing - it has money. That distinguishes it from socialism, because socialism doesn't have money.

Explain why this is necessarily the case.


Because it doesn't.

jwoodward48 wrote: Well, I guess you'd just be the one **** that sits there and eats without working. I guess maybe, just maybe, we could have "from each according to their ability, to each according to their work". Maybe. We don't even need money for that! Just "if you work, you get what you need". Done. People now work.

Marxism fails because it is based on the mistaken axiom that human nature is something very different from what it actually is.


And what would that be? Remember, nurture is also a thing.

jwoodward48 wrote:Wait, what? Why do we need this "price discovery", and why can't we make it ourselves?

That's the problem. We make the determination. No government can do that for us. There you have the framework for failure.


Aaaaand you miss the point again. Socialism doesn't have a government.

jwoodward48 wrote:Besides, socialism can be self-sufficient.

Socialism can never be self-sufficient.. It can only collapse and fail.[/quote]

Well, since we've never had a socialist country, you don't really have any evidence. I guess your claims are

UNFALSIFIABLE




"Heads on a science
Apart" - Coldplay, The Scientist

IBdaMann wrote:
No, science doesn't insist that, ergo I don't insist that.

I am the Ninja Scientist! Beware!
06-10-2016 02:51
Into the Night
★★★★★
(8642)
jwoodward48 wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
jwoodward48 wrote:THERE IS NO MONEY IN TRUE SOCIALISM

I hope you are aware that you don't get to determine what constitutes "true" socialism. Look up the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.


Hey! Hey! IB! There was an idiot that said that AGW is false because ALIENS. WHICH MEANS THAT YOU ARE WRONG. What do you mean he wasn't a true rational person? YOU ARE MAKING THE NO TRUE SCOTSMAN FALLACY.

jwoodward48 wrote: Yeah. Capitalism has another thing - it has money. That distinguishes it from socialism, because socialism doesn't have money.

Explain why this is necessarily the case.


Because it doesn't.

jwoodward48 wrote: Well, I guess you'd just be the one **** that sits there and eats without working. I guess maybe, just maybe, we could have "from each according to their ability, to each according to their work". Maybe. We don't even need money for that! Just "if you work, you get what you need". Done. People now work.

Marxism fails because it is based on the mistaken axiom that human nature is something very different from what it actually is.


And what would that be? Remember, nurture is also a thing.

jwoodward48 wrote:Wait, what? Why do we need this "price discovery", and why can't we make it ourselves?

That's the problem. We make the determination. No government can do that for us. There you have the framework for failure.


Aaaaand you miss the point again. Socialism doesn't have a government.

jwoodward48 wrote:Besides, socialism can be self-sufficient.

Socialism can never be self-sufficient.. It can only collapse and fail.


Well, since we've never had a socialist country, you don't really have any evidence. I guess your claims are

UNFALSIFIABLE

[/quote]

I see you've been reduced to ranting incoherently.

Since you've decided to tout the benefits of a society that's never been (according to you and ignoring the True Scotsman fallacy), perhaps it would be best to try to describe this vision of this society that you have and how it should be brought about.

I mean specifically. Not just vague claims about how wonderful it is.


The Parrot Killer
06-10-2016 05:44
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(4267)
Into the Night wrote: perhaps it would be best to try to describe this vision of this society that you have and how it should be brought about.

I mean specifically. Not just vague claims about how wonderful it is.

I would be interested as well.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
07-10-2016 08:35
RobWigglezz
☆☆☆☆☆
(2)
I don't know about any of you, but I really do hate trying to pick out a brand of deodorant.
07-10-2016 13:55
IBdaMann
★★★★★
(4267)
IBdaMann wrote:
Into the Night wrote: perhaps it would be best to try to describe this vision of this society that you have and how it should be brought about.

I mean specifically. Not just vague claims about how wonderful it is.

I would be interested as well.


This would be a GREAT topic for jwoodward48 to initiate and develop so as to build a framework into which we can fit the Marxist Global Warming theory/faith.

@ jwoodward48, thanks in advance for describing this vision of yours.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
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