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Venus is hotter than Mercury?!?



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26-02-2020 21:44
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13024)
tmiddles wrote:...deleted Mantras 7...7...

No argument presented.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Edited on 26-02-2020 21:45
26-02-2020 22:22
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3323)
IBdaMann wrote:
Did you essentially ignore everything I wrote and declare victory?
You said nothing. What did I not respond to? Let's take a look:
IBdaMann wrote:Fair enough. I won't take the time to write out posts addressing your questions. Let me know when something changes.
Insightful stuff IBD. Meanwhile you ignored all questions and have entirely ducked this debate insisting we know nothing about the temperature of Venus.

James___ wrote:...reason for Venus being so hot.
Interesting thing here James: IBD and ITN won't actually acknowledge that Venus is hot at all. I know it's incredible. You said something about pressure but according to them we know NOTHING about Venus. Nothing at all.

On the one hand IBD says:
IBdaMann wrote:...the extreme heat of Venus
Ironically in justifying why he claims the instruments could not determine the temperature of Venus enough to justify that very claim.

IBdaMann wrote:
James___ wrote:...This is meant to give you and IBDM something more in-depth to discuss. ...
I'm sure he appreciates the bail out James, and the pretense that he was discussing anything at all up till now.

I will be proceeding with my proof that the main points IBD and ITN have made in the past are disproven by Venus.

There is a problem though James. As IBD/ITN deny anything can be known about Venus that would include knowing there is CO2 there at all, that there is any "knowable" pressure, anything at all.

Remember their one primary mantra: NOTHING CAN BE KNOWN (and therefore nothing can be debated).

"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is valid for IBD or ITN
Edited on 26-02-2020 22:46
26-02-2020 22:51
Bode
☆☆☆☆☆
(21)
Per solar day venus receives twice the energy of mercury therefore it is hotter.
Mercury = 5.92E+22 J
Venus = 1.21E+23 J
26-02-2020 22:55
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3323)
Bode wrote:
Per solar day venus receives twice the energy of mercury therefore it is hotter.
Mercury = 5.92E+22 J
Venus = 1.21E+23 J
Fake account created by IBD to try, desperately, for some distraction.
26-02-2020 23:08
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13024)
tmiddles wrote:
Bode wrote:
Per solar day venus receives twice the energy of mercury therefore it is hotter.
Mercury = 5.92E+22 J
Venus = 1.21E+23 J
Fake account created by IBD to try, desperately, for some distraction.


YALSA


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
27-02-2020 02:23
Bode
☆☆☆☆☆
(21)
No it's a real account. The planet with the slowest rotation recieves the most joules per solar day even though it's power input is low energy input is extremely high due to the long integration period of power. Slow earths rotational period to 5238 hours for venus like temperures.
27-02-2020 02:28
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7310)
tmiddles wrote:
Bode wrote:
Per solar day venus receives twice the energy of mercury therefore it is hotter.
Mercury = 5.92E+22 J
Venus = 1.21E+23 J
Fake account created by IBD to try, desperately, for some distraction.

Awesome! The leftist paranoia sets in.

Too funny!


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
27-02-2020 02:45
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3323)
IBdaMann wrote:... leftist paranoia ...
Nice try IBD.
27-02-2020 04:42
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7310)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:... leftist paranoia ...
Nice try IBD.

Paranoia.

It's a phenomenon peculiar to lefists ... which explains why all leftist regimes become paranoid and begin executing previously trusted high-ranking members ... followed by executions of the people who are seen to be "resisting" the revolution and "sabotaging" the implementation of the new order.

Of course once Marxism was established after the Russian Revolution, the executions began ... and didn't stop. Pol Pot and the Khmere Rouge couldn't execute people fast enough once they came to power. Venezuela currently has the highest murder rate on the planet, the bulk of that is carried out by the government. China has the highest official execution rate and has long-since held that record. We all know what Hitler did as well.

Suffice to say, we just don't know if leftist politicis is caused by paranoia or if leftist politics causes paranoia ... but one thing is clear: leftist politics and paranoia go hand in hand.

Fortunately leftist posters on the internet cannot execute the people with whom they disagree otherwise there wouldn't be any people left on the planet. They are relegated to screaming "SOCK! ... you're a SOCK!" They never think through how stupid that is but tmiddles is far from the only one to suffer from debilitating paranoia in this manner, nor is he the first, obviously.

Leftists get so locked in, and obsessive about others who disagree even to the slightest degree, that the moment another appears to disagree as well, the overwhelming fear of CONSPIRACY takes hold and no rationality can intervene.

To those of you who are familiar with GasGuzzler ... he was quickly banned from YAP (an extreme leftist snowflake safe-space) because he popped in and disagreed with Victor Danilchenko ... prompting Victor to declare GasGuzzler a sock of mine ... because I had disagreed with Victor ... and promptly got him banned. The fact that GasGuzzler isn't my sock is completely immaterial; leftist paranoia took over. He was simply banned with all of the same consideration afforded Pol Pot's executions in the killing fields.

Leftists are fun to watch when their paranoia takes over ... when people aren't being executed, of course. tmiddles is currently revealing his leftist nature so get your soda and popcorn, and get ready for the show.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
27-02-2020 04:44
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3323)
IBdaMann wrote:
Paranoia.
Oh the desperate attempt to change the subject from the utterly defeated.

Dodge on IBD, dodge on.
27-02-2020 04:51
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7310)
tmiddles wrote: Oh the desperate attempt to change the subject from the utterly defeated.

Didn't I congratulate you on your victory? Why are you getting so paranoid? Didn't you already change the subject?

I'm confused now.


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
27-02-2020 04:56
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3323)
IBdaMann wrote:
I'm confused now.
Just keep talking about anything else in desperation. It won't save you.

If you'd like to stay on topic create a thread where you admit you've been lying for 5 years.

This thread is about how Venus proves you're a liar.
Edited on 27-02-2020 04:57
27-02-2020 16:16
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3323)
Working through the "Greatest Hits" of this board with Venus as a reference. A good place to start is the often cited 1st Law of Thermodynamics.

It is typically pointed out that we really have nothing at all to discuss here because it's impossible to increase temperature without "additional energy" which is very logical. Basically the 1st law dictates that the total amount of energy doesn't change. It's cited almost daily here by IBD, ITN and anyone confused enough to thing the Earth is an isolated system (it is not). Typical examples, linked to their threads are below:

Into the Night wrote:
You cannot increase temperature of any planet without additional energy.

IBdaMann wrote:
Surface Detail wrote: What we're concerned with though is the transmission or otherwise of radiation through the atmosphere.
What concerns us is accounting for additional energy. The 1st LoT is very clear; energy can neither be created nor destroyed. This rule applies always, all throughout the universe.
If someone claims that "greenhouse gas" increases temperature then we need to account for this additional energy that "greenhouse gas" provides.

IBdaMann wrote:
keepit wrote: Climate change is what happens when the earth's atmosphere doesn't release as much energy as quickly as it receives it.
...Unless your definition references additional energy or an additional energy source, there can be no temperature change either (1st law of thermodynamics).

IBdaMann wrote:
CzarnyZajaczek wrote:
Solar radiation when it arrives to Earth surface, ...
The 1st law of thermodynamics states that although energy can change form, additional energy can never be created or destroyed.
Temperature can only increase with additional energy. Nothing spontaneously increases in temperature without additional energy.
When you say that greenhouse gases increase the earth's temperature you are saying that greehouse gases produce additional energy. ...
Ergo, only through violating thermodynamics can your current Greenhouse Effect model work.

IBdaMann wrote:
spot wrote: ...nobody is claiming that CO2 creates the energy out of nothing.
...you...stated...additional CO2 ...increases the earth's average global temperature ... which can only happen with additional energy

Into the Night wrote:
spot wrote:...once that energy is converted into heat its transferred to the other balls....

...denying the 1st law of thermodynamics by creating heat out of nothing.

But I think the clearest place to start is with unequivocal proof that this assertion is false. The empirical evidence. And then to provide the theory.

We are able to measure the radiance coming from the sun. The closer you are the more you get and the less reflective you are the more you absorb. So knowing the distance to the sun, and the albedo (reflectivity) of an object allows you to know it's "equilibrium temperature", or the temperature that will emit in exact balance with what is being absorbed.

First empirical evidence was Earth which has an average ground level temperature of 14C, 287K and an equilibrium temperature of -18C, 255K. So it's 32 degrees hotter on the ground here than it would be if the claims about the 1st Ltd above were true. But while 32 degrees is a lot (particularly if you consider most water would freeze) we have a far more dramatic example.

So let's look at Venus which is very accommodating in shattering any pretense we're not sure this can happen in a big way. Venus is 462C, 735K at ground level and the equilibrium temperature is -46C, 227K. So the ground of Venus is a full 508 degrees hotter than the temperature of any equally reflective object, the same distance from the sun would be, emitting from it's outermost "surface" in equilibrium.

Now this is so huge that even pretending we know nothing at all about how reflective Venus is, and pretending the measurements taken there are wildly inaccurate we can be confident that there are several hundred extra degrees at ground level on Venus that disprove the application of the 1st LtD above.

So is there a theory that Venus has an unknown "additional energy" source creating extra energy and making this possible? No
All of that energy came from the Sun.

So how can there be "extra energy" when the sun has a fixed output? Well first of all let's acknowledge Venus is real and so the 1st LtD assertions above are debunked. The reason why that misapplication of the 1st LtD is so wrong is because no planet in the solar system is isolated. Of course they aren't the energy is coming from the sun and getting lost to space. There is no total amount of energy from the sun for Earth there is a constant supply. It's like confusing a savings account with a salary.

But what it's really like is asserting that bumblebees can't fly because it violates the laws of aerodynamics. A flying bumblebee settles that issue as false and Venus settles the bogus 1st LtD objection as false.

"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is valid for IBD or ITN
27-02-2020 16:32
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1103)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
I'm confused now.
Just keep talking about anything else in desperation. It won't save you.

If you'd like to stay on topic create a thread where you admit you've been lying for 5 years.

This thread is about how Venus proves you're a liar.

What I have since dubbed the Venus Argument has already been addressed in the Tangier Island thread. Ignoring an argument does not make it go away. The arguments presented in that thread (here summarized) were as follows:

** Venus can apparently absorb sunlight more efficiently.
** Venus has much longer days than Mercury has.
** Venus has an incredibly thick atmosphere compared to Mercury, thus you are attempting to compare surface temps as if they were the same pressure. (You're measuring temperature deeper into the planet)

Of course, the same issues with attempting to accurately measure the temperature of Earth also apply to Venus and Mercury. This has all been explained to you already.
27-02-2020 17:03
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3323)
gfm7175 wrote:
** Venus can apparently absorb sunlight more efficiently
Actually Venus is far more reflectivy then Earth or the moon. But even if Venus were a black body that absorbed all of the Sun's radiance the equilibrium temperature would only be 328K.

gfm7175 wrote:
** Venus has much longer days than Mercury has.
how would this result in Venus being any hotter? The temperatures were measured at night too.

gfm7175 wrote:
** Venus has an incredibly thick atmosphere compared to Mercury,
You are making an argument for the greenhouse effect here. Does an atmosphere create additional energy?

gfm7175 wrote:you are attempting to compare surface temps as if they were the same pressure. (You're measuring temperature deeper into the planet)
The greenhouse theory which is repeatedly denied using the 1st LtD above is about the bottom of the atmosphere/ground level. So yeah of course we are comparing the ground level.

gfm7175 wrote:
Of course, the same issues with attempting to accurately measure the temperature of Earth also apply to Venus and Mercury. This has all been explained to you already.
So what do you think we can say about Venus? Do we "know" anything at all? Do we know it has a high temp or high pressure on the ground?

"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is valid for IBD or ITN
27-02-2020 18:40
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7310)
tmiddles wrote: If you'd like to stay on topic create a thread where you admit you've been lying for 5 years. This thread is about how Venus proves you're a liar.

Now you have shifted goalposts again. We are agreed that you will lay down your argument in its entirety while I stand by with my mop.

I've got my mop and I'm standing by.




I'm still waiting for you to lay down this supposed argument of yours that will show that I'm a liar.



.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
27-02-2020 21:35
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7310)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
Paranoia.
Oh the desperate attempt to change the subject from the utterly defeated. Dodge on IBD, dodge on.

I completely omitted North Korea and their weekly "General-to-be-Executed" award along with their leftist economy (we know how that goes).


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
27-02-2020 22:45
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13024)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:... leftist paranoia ...
Nice try IBD.


What? Calling you out on your leftist paranoia? I thought he was spot on.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
27-02-2020 22:46
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13024)
IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:... leftist paranoia ...
Nice try IBD.

Paranoia.

It's a phenomenon peculiar to lefists ... which explains why all leftist regimes become paranoid and begin executing previously trusted high-ranking members ... followed by executions of the people who are seen to be "resisting" the revolution and "sabotaging" the implementation of the new order.

Of course once Marxism was established after the Russian Revolution, the executions began ... and didn't stop. Pol Pot and the Khmere Rouge couldn't execute people fast enough once they came to power. Venezuela currently has the highest murder rate on the planet, the bulk of that is carried out by the government. China has the highest official execution rate and has long-since held that record. We all know what Hitler did as well.

Suffice to say, we just don't know if leftist politicis is caused by paranoia or if leftist politics causes paranoia ... but one thing is clear: leftist politics and paranoia go hand in hand.

Fortunately leftist posters on the internet cannot execute the people with whom they disagree otherwise there wouldn't be any people left on the planet. They are relegated to screaming "SOCK! ... you're a SOCK!" They never think through how stupid that is but tmiddles is far from the only one to suffer from debilitating paranoia in this manner, nor is he the first, obviously.

Leftists get so locked in, and obsessive about others who disagree even to the slightest degree, that the moment another appears to disagree as well, the overwhelming fear of CONSPIRACY takes hold and no rationality can intervene.

To those of you who are familiar with GasGuzzler ... he was quickly banned from YAP (an extreme leftist snowflake safe-space) because he popped in and disagreed with Victor Danilchenko ... prompting Victor to declare GasGuzzler a sock of mine ... because I had disagreed with Victor ... and promptly got him banned. The fact that GasGuzzler isn't my sock is completely immaterial; leftist paranoia took over. He was simply banned with all of the same consideration afforded Pol Pot's executions in the killing fields.

Leftists are fun to watch when their paranoia takes over ... when people aren't being executed, of course. tmiddles is currently revealing his leftist nature so get your soda and popcorn, and get ready for the show.


.


Already have it. I bought extra for the election season.



The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
27-02-2020 22:49
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13024)
tmiddles wrote:...deleted Mantras 24...30...1...37c...30...



The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
27-02-2020 23:07
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13024)
tmiddles wrote:
Working through the "Greatest Hits" of this board with Venus as a reference. A good place to start is the often cited 1st Law of Thermodynamics.
...deleted Mantra 20a1...20i...20h...20a1...37c...20e2...31...25...25k...20b...25g...25g...25g...25c...31...25g...25g...25g...25c...20b...20b...25f...25k...37c...20a1...25f...31...10 (planet<->temperature)...20a1...20e1...20m...20f...
But what it's really like is asserting that bumblebees can't fly because it violates the laws of aerodynamics.
...deleted Mantras 15...37c...25g...20a1...


Bumblebees do not violate any law of aerodynamics. They never have.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
27-02-2020 23:15
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13024)
tmiddles wrote:
...deleted Mantras 31...20b...25g...25k...
gfm7175 wrote:
** Venus has much longer days than Mercury has.
how would this result in Venus being any hotter? The temperatures were measured at night too.

The surface temperature is not the temperature of Venus. You are shifting the goalposts again. Mantra 15.
gfm7175 wrote:you are attempting to compare surface temps as if they were the same pressure. (You're measuring temperature deeper into the planet)
The greenhouse theory which is repeatedly denied using the 1st LtD above is about the bottom of the atmosphere/ground level. So yeah of course we are comparing the ground level. [/quote]
tmiddles isn't. He is comparing the whole temperature of Venus to the ground level. False equivalence fallacy. Mantra 20h....20a1.
tmiddles wrote:
Deleted Mantras 29...29...29...29...29...

No argument presented. RQAA.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
27-02-2020 23:18
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3323)
IBdaMann wrote:
I'm still waiting ...
Keep on pretending IBD. It's all you have left. More to come.

Into the Night wrote:
Bumblebees do not violate any law of aerodynamics. They never have.
You've seriously never heard of this?:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Bumblebee_argument

Venus doesn't violate the the first law of thermodynamics either.

And yes is has WAY MORE energy than it's equilibrium temperature would account for. It has WAY MORE energy than it gets! So you've been full of it for 5 years.

What's that? RQAA? Yeah keep running away.

"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is valid for IBD or ITN
28-02-2020 00:01
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13024)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
I'm still waiting ...
Keep on pretending IBD. It's all you have left. More to come.
tmiddles wrote:
[quote]Into the Night wrote:
Bumblebees do not violate any law of aerodynamics. They never have.
You've seriously never heard of this?:
...deleted Mantra 4a...TMSa3...20a1...25c...25k...31...29...7...17...

I have heard of it. It's wrong. Bumblebees have never violated any law of aerodynamics.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
28-02-2020 03:57
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3323)
Into the Night wrote:
I have heard of it. It's wrong. Bumblebees have never violated any law of aerodynamics.
Yes of course I agree with you.

What I'm saying is in a discussion with someone espousing that bumblebees violate thermodynamics, as some really have alleged, you open with the reality that bumblebees fly.

Empirical proof that a theory is wrong, like your application of the 1st LtD to planetary temperature, is the best place to start in my opinion.

A more active example would be those who believe the Earth is flat. Presenting empirical proof that is false allows you to quickly establish they believe in a vast conspiracy.

Venus easily proves you are wrong(where did the additional energy come from?!?). You have declined to comment.

This is that moment when you show a Flat Earther satellite photos of Earth and they say it's a conspiracy. You just say "RQAA". Which is parrot for "I'm dodging this one".

"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is valid for IBD or ITN
28-02-2020 04:37
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7310)
tmiddles wrote: Venus easily proves you are wrong(where did the additional energy come from?!?). You have declined to comment.

When did we ever verify an increase in Venus' average planetary temperature? We would need to have done that in order to establish that there was "additional energy." At the moment there is no "additional energy" for which we must account.

Also, you keep committing the shifting of the burden of proof fallacy (which needs to be included in the list).

Done!

37) Shifting the Burden (e.g. require opponents to disprove your assertion/argument)
* a) Cops & Robbers Fallacy ("I shot you" "No you didn't") i.e. claiming your assertion/argument still stands because you dismissed the falsification/refutation thereof

You keep claiming that my argument is false and that my position is wrong ... when I am not making any argument and when I have no position. You are the one who is making an affirmative argument.

I am not the only one who is waiting for you to present whatever argument you are going to present. Your method of delay is lame; you are claiming that others who are not making any argument are somehow wrong.

In the meantime, I have gathered a few more mops. I'm just waiting for you to "get to it."





.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
28-02-2020 07:29
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3323)
IBdaMann wrote:...an increase in Venus' average planetary temperature?
Quite the contrary we can be confident that Venus is in thermodynamic equilibrium and that the temperature isn't changing significantly. The lander missions span a 20 year period and the ground level temp is steady, planet wide and year to year.

We can also be confident that Venus has WAY more energy in it's atmosphere than it is getting from the sun. If it violated the 1st LtD to have additional energy without an additional source this would be impossible.

So you see IBD this very simple fact proves your assertions of the 1st LtD being violated by greenhouse theory (both for the temperature of the Earth with or without AGW) to be false.

IBdaMann wrote:...shifting of the burden of proof fallacy...
Well I just proved you are wrong and it really wasn't much of a burden for me. Does it feel like a burden to have some kind of rebuttal? It's not.

If a boxer is knocked to mat they don't have to get up. In fact in some fights it's better to stay down.

IBdaMann wrote:I am not making any argument
You mean at this moment? No you're not. I have a collection of you and ITN making arguments in the past in my post (liked to the source threads): here

IBdaMann wrote:I'm just waiting for you to "get to it."
Well your baseless assertions of the 1st LtD being violated has been dispensed with so yes I'll be dismantling more BS. I know you've given up. It's OK really.

"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is valid for IBD or ITN
28-02-2020 08:21
keepit
★★★★☆
(1628)
I missed quite a bit of this discussion. I don't get how anyone could claim energy was created in the atmosphere (violation of the 1st law) when the sun keeps pouring energy onto the earth.
28-02-2020 09:52
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7310)
keepit wrote: I missed quite a bit of this discussion. I don't get how anyone could claim energy was created in the atmosphere (violation of the 1st law) when the sun keeps pouring energy onto the earth.

You don't get it because you are scientifically illiterate ... or did you somehow forget?


Just out of curiosity, is there anything that you do get?


.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
28-02-2020 10:26
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3323)
keepit wrote:... how anyone could claim energy was created in the atmosphere (violation of the 1st law) when the sun keeps pouring energy onto the earth.
yeah I gotta thank you for pointing out that part of this game ITN/IBD play is to say familiar things that can be true but to misapply them.

The Earth is not a thermodynamically isolated system.

And neither is Venus.

But that's just WHY they are dead wrong in misunderstanding the 1st LtD. That they ARE wrong is proven by the temperature on both planets.
28-02-2020 11:11
duncan61
★★★☆☆
(466)
.How can the temperature be measured.I thought we had proven it cant without a gazillion devices
.The big warming scare is a minute amount even if it is true
.I agree with ITN/IBD there is no such thing as greenhouse gas
.Can we get back to the debate arguing on the internet is like winning the retard olympics you might win but you are still a retard
28-02-2020 11:18
duncan61
★★★☆☆
(466)
I have been watching some cool youtube debates and when the hard questions are asked about the global warming faith the pro people always stumble and do not seem to be able to put a coherent sentence together or exaggerate the results
28-02-2020 12:19
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3323)
duncan61 wrote:
.How can the temperature be measured.I thought we had proven it cant without a gazillion devices...
You're thinking of the question of what margin of error you can be confident of to determine the mean temp of Earth. Claiming to know the mean temperature to 0.25 degrees over 200 million square miles is certainly debateable.

First of all relax duncan. That ITN/IBD have been slinging BS doesn't prove AGW is a real crisis. The predetermined conclusion to your "search" is safe.

Venus is so much hotter than it's equilibrium temperature, +500C., we can be very confident of that simple fact even though we've only had a dozen landers measure it directly.

"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is valid for IBD or ITN
28-02-2020 12:53
duncan61
★★★☆☆
(466)
One professor when asked about the placing of the reading devices near urban areas admitted they fudge the data to allow for these things.If you fudge a bit how does that work.Same dude when asked about melting ice at the Arctic claimed it was a now few degrees warmer then the questioner declared it was 1.8 f warmer at this particular glacier and this bloke actually said well its warmer in other areas.how can that be trusted???When asked was he exaggerating he shook his head and went no no.The questioner was an elderly gentleman and he had been following this particular glacier melting all his life and had recently been there it is melting at the same rate it always has been.wake up people
28-02-2020 16:45
James___
★★★★★
(2992)
tmiddles wrote:
duncan61 wrote:
.How can the temperature be measured.I thought we had proven it cant without a gazillion devices...
You're thinking of the question of what margin of error you can be confident of to determine the mean temp of Earth. Claiming to know the mean temperature to 0.25 degrees over 200 million square miles is certainly debateable.

First of all relax duncan. That ITN/IBD have been slinging BS doesn't prove AGW is a real crisis. The predetermined conclusion to your "search" is safe.

Venus is so much hotter than it's equilibrium temperature, +500C., we can be very confident of that simple fact even though we've only had a dozen landers measure it directly.

"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is valid for IBD or ITN




Venus is a poor example to use. Is CO2 responsible for it's atmospheric pressure of 1,334 psi or 73.79 kg/cm^2 ? It's gravity is 8.87 m/s^2 while the Earth's is 9.83 m/s^2. I don't think having less gravity increases atmospheric pressure.
I think I have found something I can play around with now. It will be more complicated than this

............m1*m2
F = G --------------
..............D squared

and translations (giving it more meaning is important. This is because gravity should influence atmospheric pressure. Mars gravity is 3.41 m/s^2 and it has almost no atmospheric pressure.


the reason for the dots is that everything would be aligned left without them.
28-02-2020 20:25
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13024)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
I have heard of it. It's wrong. Bumblebees have never violated any law of aerodynamics.
Yes of course I agree with you.

What I'm saying is in a discussion with someone espousing that bumblebees violate thermodynamics, as some really have alleged, you open with the reality that bumblebees fly.

No, I open with the laws of aerodynamics, which clearly show how a bumblebee can fly, despite it's bulky appearance.
tmiddles wrote:
Empirical proof that a theory is wrong, like your application of the 1st LtD to planetary temperature, is the best place to start in my opinion....deleted Mantras 25f...37c...25a...25c...25f...37c...29...8...

Observation is not a proof. All observations are subject to the problems of phenomenology, which you still deny.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
28-02-2020 20:29
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13024)
IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote: Venus easily proves you are wrong(where did the additional energy come from?!?). You have declined to comment.

When did we ever verify an increase in Venus' average planetary temperature? We would need to have done that in order to establish that there was "additional energy." At the moment there is no "additional energy" for which we must account.

Also, you keep committing the shifting of the burden of proof fallacy (which needs to be included in the list).

Done!

37) Shifting the Burden (e.g. require opponents to disprove your assertion/argument)
* a) Cops & Robbers Fallacy ("I shot you" "No you didn't") i.e. claiming your assertion/argument still stands because you dismissed the falsification/refutation thereof

You keep claiming that my argument is false and that my position is wrong ... when I am not making any argument and when I have no position. You are the one who is making an affirmative argument.

I am not the only one who is waiting for you to present whatever argument you are going to present. Your method of delay is lame; you are claiming that others who are not making any argument are somehow wrong.

In the meantime, I have gathered a few more mops. I'm just waiting for you to "get to it."





.


This is actually 38). I have corrected the list.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
28-02-2020 20:34
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13024)
tmiddles wrote:...deleted Mantras 25c...25c...20b...20e2...20e2...33...20a1...38a...16b...16...17...20a1...20e1...7...

No argument presented.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
28-02-2020 20:35
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13024)
keepit wrote:
...deleted Mantras 16...20f...


No argument presented.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
28-02-2020 20:38
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13024)
tmiddles wrote:...deleted Mantras 24...20i...20i...20a1...25c...25c...37c...38a...

No argument presented.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Page 15 of 27<<<1314151617>>>





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