This forum is f ucking garbage

"old sick silly sleepy sleezy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner badnight" bluffed:..... another goes off to the kiddie pool....

L8112 wrote:
mainly due to 3-4 psychos who account for 90% of the 25,000 posts on this site. cheers psychotic f*ckwits, I have better things to do.

L8112 wrote: mainly due to 3-4 psychos who account for 90% of the 25,000 posts on this site. cheers psychotic f*ckwits, I have better things to do.

litesong wrote:

"old sick silly sleepy sleezy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner badnight" bluffed:..... another goes off to the kiddie pool....

Correction; should be:
..... another moves to a corner of the kiddie pool....

GreenMan wrote: "denier trolls"

GreenMan wrote:

L8112 wrote:
mainly due to 3-4 psychos who account for 90% of the 25,000 posts on this site. cheers psychotic f*ckwits, I have better things to do.

I'm hoping you are not serious, because I am following your posts and they are quite interesting. It's a shame that the denier trolls in here are so dominant, because this forum could be used for discussions regarding what to do about this problem.

GreenMan wrote:
Unfortunately, we can't get there, because of all the ****s that scream at the top of their illiterate voice that there is no problem.

GreenMan wrote:
But I think you got it right, L8112. We are witnessing the beginning stages of a die-off event,

GreenMan wrote:
perhaps a complete extinction event of every animal on the planet.

GreenMan wrote:
And it is being caused by our greedy ways. No one wants to stop living like kings, even if it means that it is killing future generations. Instead of dealing with that mentally, it is easier to just deny what is going on, and claim that we aren't killing future generations, because there is no such thing as Global Warming.

GreenMan wrote:
People like Parrot, Wake, and Jizz Guzzler, and there's another idiot that pokes his head in once in a while and tries to sound intelligent. ah yes, Tim the Plumber.

GreenMan wrote:
You know you can ignore their responses, because each of them just respond the same way, over and over and over again, to everyone who comes in here.

GreenMan wrote:
And they will get to realize what a mistake they made, when it is too late. And when they are dead, and wishing they could live again, they will find out what the punishment is for having no regard for life, while they were living.

Into the Night wrote:

GreenMan wrote:

L8112 wrote:
mainly due to 3-4 psychos who account for 90% of the 25,000 posts on this site. cheers psychotic f*ckwits, I have better things to do.

I'm hoping you are not serious, because I am following your posts and they are quite interesting. It's a shame that the denier trolls in here are so dominant, because this forum could be used for discussions regarding what to do about this problem.

What problem?

GreenMan wrote:
Unfortunately, we can't get there, because of all the ****s that scream at the top of their illiterate voice that there is no problem.

There isn't.

GreenMan wrote:
But I think you got it right, L8112. We are witnessing the beginning stages of a die-off event,

...such as?

GreenMan wrote:
perhaps a complete extinction event of every animal on the planet.

Don't think so. Animals already cope with far greater changes in temperatures than you are predicting through the Church of Global Warming. They do it quite well, too.

GreenMan wrote:
And it is being caused by our greedy ways. No one wants to stop living like kings, even if it means that it is killing future generations. Instead of dealing with that mentally, it is easier to just deny what is going on, and claim that we aren't killing future generations, because there is no such thing as Global Warming.

And here we see the link the Church of Global Warming has with the Church of Karl Marx.

GreenMan wrote:
People like Parrot, Wake, and Jizz Guzzler, and there's another idiot that pokes his head in once in a while and tries to sound intelligent. ah yes, Tim the Plumber.

We already know who you apply your bulverism to.

GreenMan wrote:
You know you can ignore their responses, because each of them just respond the same way, over and over and over again, to everyone who comes in here.

It sounds the same because it IS the same. It is the same science, the same mathematics, and the same logic. It is YOU that denies it all. It is the Church of Global Warming that denies it all.

GreenMan wrote:
And they will get to realize what a mistake they made, when it is too late. And when they are dead, and wishing they could live again, they will find out what the punishment is for having no regard for life, while they were living.

Heh. Each of these people you listed are builders. They make society better. They do it BECAUSE they care about others.

All you know how to do is preach doom and gloom.

Go live in your bunker. Go turn away from society. Go become a hermit. That's really caring about the living, isn't it?

GreenMan wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

GreenMan wrote:

L8112 wrote:
mainly due to 3-4 psychos who account for 90% of the 25,000 posts on this site. cheers psychotic f*ckwits, I have better things to do.

I'm hoping you are not serious, because I am following your posts and they are quite interesting. It's a shame that the denier trolls in here are so dominant, because this forum could be used for discussions regarding what to do about this problem.

What problem?

GreenMan wrote:
Unfortunately, we can't get there, because of all the ****s that scream at the top of their illiterate voice that there is no problem.

There isn't.

GreenMan wrote:
But I think you got it right, L8112. We are witnessing the beginning stages of a die-off event,

...such as?

GreenMan wrote:
perhaps a complete extinction event of every animal on the planet.

Don't think so. Animals already cope with far greater changes in temperatures than you are predicting through the Church of Global Warming. They do it quite well, too.

GreenMan wrote:
And it is being caused by our greedy ways. No one wants to stop living like kings, even if it means that it is killing future generations. Instead of dealing with that mentally, it is easier to just deny what is going on, and claim that we aren't killing future generations, because there is no such thing as Global Warming.

And here we see the link the Church of Global Warming has with the Church of Karl Marx.

GreenMan wrote:
People like Parrot, Wake, and Jizz Guzzler, and there's another idiot that pokes his head in once in a while and tries to sound intelligent. ah yes, Tim the Plumber.

We already know who you apply your bulverism to.

GreenMan wrote:
You know you can ignore their responses, because each of them just respond the same way, over and over and over again, to everyone who comes in here.

It sounds the same because it IS the same. It is the same science, the same mathematics, and the same logic. It is YOU that denies it all. It is the Church of Global Warming that denies it all.

GreenMan wrote:
And they will get to realize what a mistake they made, when it is too late. And when they are dead, and wishing they could live again, they will find out what the punishment is for having no regard for life, while they were living.

Heh. Each of these people you listed are builders. They make society better. They do it BECAUSE they care about others.

All you know how to do is preach doom and gloom.

Go live in your bunker. Go turn away from society. Go become a hermit. That's really caring about the living, isn't it?

I'm thinking that you are so stupid, that you believe your own bull shit. How is it that a grown man is able to convince himself that all of the people who study climate know less than he does about physics?

GreenMan wrote:
Do you know what kind of pompous fool that makes you?

GreenMan wrote:
No Parrot, you fools that reject sound reasoning

GreenMan wrote:
in favor of your bull shit fantasy

GreenMan wrote:
do not help people.

GreenMan wrote:
You must think of yourself pretty highly though, saving our society like you think you are.

GreenMan wrote:
But since when is lying to people to make them feel better about what they are doing really helping them?

GreenMan wrote:
A person is flying down the road, towards a dead end. You tell him to speed up, because the faster you go when you hit the wall, the better your chance of making it through the wall.

GreenMan wrote:
Avoiding catastrophe is apparently not one of your strong suits.

GreenMan wrote:
I'm going to say that you are really good at playing fantasy games though, which don't really kill the losers. Of course, the problem is, this game is not fantasy, and it really does kill the losers. Maybe you think it won't be so bad losing, if you convince a lot of people to join you in your loss?

GreenMan wrote: I'm thinking that you are so stupid, that you believe your own bull shit. How is it that a grown man is able to convince himself that all of the people who study climate know less than he does about physics?

Do you know what kind of pompous fool that makes you?

No Parrot, you fools that reject sound reasoning in favor of your bull shit fantasy do not help people. You must think of yourself pretty highly though, saving our society like you think you are. But since when is lying to people to make them feel better about what they are doing really helping them?

A person is flying down the road, towards a dead end. You tell him to speed up, because the faster you go when you hit the wall, the better your chance of making it through the wall.

Avoiding catastrophe is apparently not one of your strong suits. I'm going to say that you are really good at playing fantasy games though, which don't really kill the losers. Of course, the problem is, this game is not fantasy, and it really does kill the losers. Maybe you think it won't be so bad losing, if you convince a lot of people to join you in your loss?

Into the Night wrote: There is no branch of science that studies climate. There is no theory about climate in science. Science has no theories on what you can't quantify or define.

Wake wrote:

GreenMan wrote: I'm thinking that you are so stupid, that you believe your own bull shit. How is it that a grown man is able to convince himself that all of the people who study climate know less than he does about physics?

Do you know what kind of pompous fool that makes you?

No Parrot, you fools that reject sound reasoning in favor of your bull shit fantasy do not help people. You must think of yourself pretty highly though, saving our society like you think you are. But since when is lying to people to make them feel better about what they are doing really helping them?

A person is flying down the road, towards a dead end. You tell him to speed up, because the faster you go when you hit the wall, the better your chance of making it through the wall.

Avoiding catastrophe is apparently not one of your strong suits. I'm going to say that you are really good at playing fantasy games though, which don't really kill the losers. Of course, the problem is, this game is not fantasy, and it really does kill the losers. Maybe you think it won't be so bad losing, if you convince a lot of people to join you in your loss?

Greenman - why do you call yourself that?

Wake wrote:
Do you think that you are somehow an environmentalist by reading papers that have been purposely counterfeited without having any capacity to understand science yourself?

Wake wrote:
Why would you argue with nightmare when you know that he's even less knowledgeable than you? Is that to make yourself feel smart?

Wake wrote:
When you pawn off yourself as knowing anything about climate change it simply makes you look like a fool.

Wake wrote:
...deleted Holy Link...
This is a temperature reading from the Sargasso Sea that is important because it is fed by literally the entire northern continental hemisphere. This is about as accurate record of temperature over this period of time that we could have.

Wake wrote:
As you can see the temperature record shows the temperature falling. As I've shown elsewhere the Arctic ice pack ebbs and flows. in 2012 it was a low year but it has been rapidly recovering despite what litebrain has to say about anything.

Wake wrote:
...deleted Holy Link...
This shows NORMAL warm periods and their occurrence in our record.

Wake wrote:
Does it appear to you looking at that chart that anything special is occurring?

Wake wrote:
If an ice age occurred when the CO2 levels were over 1,000 ppm why would you think for a second that 500 would cause uncontrollable heating?

Wake wrote:
You ARE NOT one of the elite.

Wake wrote:
You are not special and you are supporting people that think this of you:

"A couple of years ago, Margaret Sanger was named one of Time magazine's "20 Most Influential Americans of All Time.""

Wake wrote:

Into the Night wrote: There is no branch of science that studies climate. There is no theory about climate in science. Science has no theories on what you can't quantify or define.

The clown speaketh again. That's because he has never heard of climatology.

Wake wrote:
Schools with Climatology Programs
The following 2-year and 4-year institutions offer degree programs in the field:
...deleted list of schools offering 'climatology' degrees...

Wake wrote:
Imagine them offering a doctoral in a science that nightmare tells us doesn't exist.

"old sick silly sleepy sleezy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner & many time threatener wake-me-up" yapped:you are a child molester.

L8112 wrote:
mainly due to 3-4 psychos who account for 90% of the 25,000 posts on this site. cheers psychotic f*ckwits, I have better things to do.

Tim the plumber wrote:

L8112 wrote:
mainly due to 3-4 psychos who account for 90% of the 25,000 posts on this site. cheers psychotic f*ckwits, I have better things to do.

Why not actually swear?

It's the one good fucking bit about the place.

"tipped the leaky plunger" puffed:Why not actually swear? It's the one good fu[cking bit about the place.

GreenMan wrote:
I'm thinking that you are so stupid, that you believe your own bull shit. How is it that a grown man is able to convince himself that all of the people who study climate know less than he does about physics?

Do you know what kind of pompous fool that makes you?

Wake wrote:

Tim the plumber wrote:

L8112 wrote:
mainly due to 3-4 psychos who account for 90% of the 25,000 posts on this site. cheers psychotic f*ckwits, I have better things to do.

Why not actually swear?

It's the one good fucking bit about the place.

Actually I think that everything is pretty good about this site. You can elicit reactions that drives other cite managers crazy. Like I would go up to Seattle and even care what nightmare is like other than to take a picture of him in order to show to everyone. He's a little fat man that's anti-social.

But the way he started crying was pretty demonstrative that he defends his ideas that aren't scientific at all because that's all he has. Crying about the Stefan-Boltzman Law and using his words that you can only find in the "Big Book of Words to Make You Sound Smart" and his claiming to know statistics while being totally incapable of knowing anything about statistical analysis.

Litebrain actually posted like an intellectual on another site but he couldn't stand opposition with actual facts to counter his love of NASA. In another posting I showed that NASA and NOAA were clean up to around 1989 so that's when the corruption began.

Greenman is a groupie and no more. I would guess from his postings that he's high school.

There are a couple other True Believers here but they are usually open to real facts and upon questioning them they will go and look it up.

You and GasGazzler and another here and there who pop in are willing to challenge the fixed position of these people who have gained all of their scientific knowledge via Popular Science just as they have gained their political indoctrination from Newsweek and Time.

My idea that the real drive behind AGW is the Eugenics movement sounds really far fetched even to me but you have to wonder WHY the end result of all of the AGW would be reducing energy consumption for the average American, or world citizen for that matter, while what we can see is the political elite are setting themselves up to be fatter and more comfortable than ever.

Eugenics is not a movement of the masses. It is a very small elite that absolutely believe that they are superior to the rest of the human race. And this superiority complex I have witnesses up close and personal. And it hasn't been from business leaders or billionaires or geniuses or doctors and only occasionally from lawyers. In every case I've seen it it has been from politicians.

Do you know while the San Francisco bay area governments were telling everyone they had to reduce their power usage and pay large extras for going above your normal bills they installed total LED lights on all of the bridges?

...deleted extraneous link...

I don't think that Trump will be remembered for being a particularly good President but I think he will be remembered for being the turning point.

Wake wrote:

Tim the plumber wrote:

L8112 wrote:
mainly due to 3-4 psychos who account for 90% of the 25,000 posts on this site. cheers psychotic f*ckwits, I have better things to do.

Why not actually swear?

It's the one good fucking bit about the place.

Actually I think that everything is pretty good about this site. You can elicit reactions that drives other cite managers crazy. Like I would go up to Seattle and even care what nightmare is like other than to take a picture of him in order to show to everyone. He's a little fat man that's anti-social.

But the way he started crying was pretty demonstrative that he defends his ideas that aren't scientific at all because that's all he has. Crying about the Stefan-Boltzman Law and using his words that you can only find in the "Big Book of Words to Make You Sound Smart" and his claiming to know statistics while being totally incapable of knowing anything about statistical analysis.

Litebrain actually posted like an intellectual on another site but he couldn't stand opposition with actual facts to counter his love of NASA. In another posting I showed that NASA and NOAA were clean up to around 1989 so that's when the corruption began.

Greenman is a groupie and no more. I would guess from his postings that he's high school.

There are a couple other True Believers here but they are usually open to real facts and upon questioning them they will go and look it up.

You and GasGazzler and another here and there who pop in are willing to challenge the fixed position of these people who have gained all of their scientific knowledge via Popular Science just as they have gained their political indoctrination from Newsweek and Time.

My idea that the real drive behind AGW is the Eugenics movement sounds really far fetched even to me but you have to wonder WHY the end result of all of the AGW would be reducing energy consumption for the average American, or world citizen for that matter, while what we can see is the political elite are setting themselves up to be fatter and more comfortable than ever.

Eugenics is not a movement of the masses. It is a very small elite that absolutely believe that they are superior to the rest of the human race. And this superiority complex I have witnesses up close and personal. And it hasn't been from business leaders or billionaires or geniuses or doctors and only occasionally from lawyers. In every case I've seen it it has been from politicians.

Do you know while the San Francisco bay area governments were telling everyone they had to reduce their power usage and pay large extras for going above your normal bills they installed total LED lights on all of the bridges?

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://thebaylights.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/07.jpg&imgrefurl=http://thebaylights.org/&h=742&w=1100&tbnid=gx63wjfLxIrGnM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=200&usg=__l-2o-7GSV5arl17NTnB_aGkuj5s=&vet=10ahUKEwiw7LD-0qPXAhXM4IMKHdNiA0UQ_B0IqAEwEw..i&docid=hpJ5rexsRSZXdM&itg=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiw7LD-0qPXAhXM4IMKHdNiA0UQ_B0IqAEwEw

I don't think that Trump will be remembered for being a particularly good President but I think he will be remembered for being the turning point.

litesong wrote:

"tipped the leaky plunger" puffed:Why not actually swear? It's the one good fu[cking bit about the place.

"tipped the leaky plunger"... giving daycare children advice.... with emphasis.

"tipped, the leaky plunger" puffed:... were I the owner of this forum you would be banned.

litesong wrote:

"tipped, the leaky plunger" puffed:... were I the owner of this forum you would be banned.

Yet, "old sick silly sleepy sleezy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner many time threatener wake-me-up", who has now threatened AGW advocates to leave this webcyst (no misspelling), AND now has threatened me, is adored by AGW denier liar whiners.
It is obvious that many AGW denier liar whiners on this webcyst (including "tipped, the leaky plunger") are proud of old sick silly sleepy sleezy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiners & even one many time threatener. AGW denier liar whiners support such ilk, & thus become old sick silly sleepy sleezy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiners AND many time threateners, themselves.
I have restrained myself from adding the many characteristics to "tipped, the leaky plunger". It now becomes my duty to unveil, the well-earned trash characteristics to "tipped, the leaky plunger". It now becomes "old sick silly sleepy sleezy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner many time threatener tipped, the leaky plunger".
Thank you for so clearly delineating your characteristics in your new name.

"old sick silly sleepy sleezy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner many time threatener wake-me-up" yipped:... were I the manager...(of this "webcyst") ....

litesong wrote:

"old sick silly sleepy sleezy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner many time threatener wake-me-up" yipped:... were I the manager...(of this "webcyst") ....

.... says one who has earned the name "old sick silly sleepy sleezy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner many time threatener wake-me-up".

Wake wrote:
Greenman - why do you call yourself that?

Wake wrote:
Do you think that you are somehow an environmentalist by reading papers that have been purposely counterfeited without having any capacity to understand science yourself?

Wake wrote:

Why would you argue with nightmare when you know that he's even less knowledgeable than you? Is that to make yourself feel smart?

Wake wrote:

When you pawn off yourself as knowing anything about climate change it simply makes you look like a fool.

Wake wrote:


https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/15/149415-004-3FCD1F93.jpg&imgrefurl=https://www.britannica.com/science/medieval-warm-period&h=400&w=600&tbnid=vj4zJHdiCBzzZM:&tbnh=140&tbnw=211&usg=__qheLciuTjz-NmEvXKSvj3CVdouw=&vet=10ahUKEwiq9s_UnaPXAhUBUWMKHQT7BO0Q9QEILDAA..i&docid=G3KrDlNNflicaM&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiq9s_UnaPXAhUBUWMKHQT7BO0Q9QEILDAA#h=400&imgdii=yeR0RozU3gDudM:&tbnh=140&tbnw=211&vet=10ahUKEwiq9s_UnaPXAhUBUWMKHQT7BO0Q9QEILDAA..i&w=600

This is a temperature reading from the Sargasso Sea that is important because it is fed by literally the entire northern continental hemisphere. This is about as accurate record of temperature over this period of time that we could have.

As you can see the temperature record shows the temperature falling. As I've shown elsewhere the Arctic ice pack ebbs and flows. in 2012 it was a low year but it has been rapidly recovering despite what litebrain has to say about anything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature_record#/media/File:EPICA_temperature_plot.svg

This shows NORMAL warm periods and their occurrence in our record. Does it appear to you looking at that chart that anything special is occurring? If an ice age occurred when the CO2 levels were over 1,000 ppm why would you think for a second that 500 would cause uncontrollable heating?

Wake wrote:

You ARE NOT one of the elite. You are not special and you are supporting people that think this of you:

Wake wrote:

"A couple of years ago, Margaret Sanger was named one of Time magazine's "20 Most Influential Americans of All Time.""

She was at a meeting of the Klu Klux Klan and presented as the wave of the future.

"While I personally believe in the sterilization of the feeble-minded, the insane and syphilitic, I have not been able to discover that these measures are more than superficial deterrents when applied to the constantly growing stream of the unfit. They are excellent means of meeting a certain phase of the situation, but I believe in regard to these, as in regard to other eugenic means, that they do not go to the bottom of the matter." ("Birth Control and Racial Betterment," Feb. 1919, The Birth Control Review).

Do you understand this? This was called the Eugenics movement. It is still in operation to this very day.

You and me and every person on this planet that do not like they intend to murder. And how better to do this than to stop generating power? Stop supporting the civilization we have? If you cannot have power to plant, harvest and deliver food to an urban civilization what becomes of it?

Wake wrote:

"By all means, there should be no children when either mother or father suffers from such diseases as tuberculosis, gonorrhea, syphilis, cancer, epilepsy, insanity, drunkenness and mental disorders. In the case of the mother, heart disease, kidney trouble and pelvic deformities are also a serious bar to childbearing No more children should be born when the parents, though healthy themselves, find that their children are physically or mentally defective." ("Woman and the New Race," 1920, Chapter 7).

You without any knowledge of science would accept these same sort of people that believe this as experts to lead your life?

Wake wrote:

"The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's Abortion Surveillance report revealed that between 2007 and 2010, nearly 36 percent of all abortions in the United States were performed on black children, even though black Americans make up only 13 percent of our population. A further 21 percent of abortions were performed on Hispanics, and 7 percent more on other minority groups, for a total of 64 percent of U.S. abortions tragically performed on minority groups. Margaret Sanger would have been proud of the effects of her legacy."

The question is: would you be proud of such a legacy?

GasGuzzler wrote:

GreenMan wrote:
I'm thinking that you are so stupid, that you believe your own bull shit. How is it that a grown man is able to convince himself that all of the people who study climate know less than he does about physics?

Do you know what kind of pompous fool that makes you?

So Greenthing,

Of all the hundreds of thousands of theologians that have studied the Bible and are considered experts, I can't think of more than a couple that think Jesus was Lucifer. You however, believe this to be true, along with your belief that the prophets were actually talking global warming. This is your religion, and there is nothing wrong with that. You are a denier.

I have read the Bible too and that's not how I see it. How I interpret it is my religion.

The difference is that I will never try to force my religion on you.

"old sick silly sleepy sleezy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner many time threatener wake-me-up" yipped: Your life is of so little use....

GreenMan wrote:
Because GreenMan is my Hero. He represents rebirth, following the destruction of our environment. Unlike most people that you will encounter, my view on Climate Change isn't something that can be prevented. It's already in overdrive, and is just going to keep getting worse, as the changes speed up. I see the end of this period of time ending in a rebirth, which requires a death, or a die-off.

I think it would be great if we could do something to prevent what's coming, but I really don't think there is anything we can do. I think the best thing to do is plan for the rebirth, and plan for making it to the rebirth.

Again, you are using your own characteristics to describe others. I didn't accept Global Warming as fact, until I built my own Climate Model. That's a little different than what you did, which is researched the Internet for an excuse to reject Global Warming.

The same reason I argue with the likes of you, who is apparently even dumber than Parrot. It has nothing to do with boosting my ego, and I have no reason to want to "feel smart." You idiots think of things to make what I say sound less than intelligent, so I have no choice but to spank your silly little asses.

I did the research necessary to qualify as being knowledable of Global Warming and Climate Change. It is you that just float around the Internet, looking for other people's opinions that support yours.

I think you are the fool.

Ice ages don't occur at 1,000 ppm CO2 concentration. Where did you get that number from? Is that your favorite number? The CO2 concentration levels have been nowhere near that in the last 800,000 years. In fact, the current CO2 concentration level is higher than it has been in 800,000 years [cue idiotic Parrot to claim no one knows anything].

Your charts show a decline in the average temperature and anyone that has studied our past climate knows that it has been cooling off gradually since coming out of the Younger Dryas Period, following the end of the last ice age [glacial period]. My Climate Model backcasts that climb out of the last ice age, including the Younger Dryas Period, and the slight cooling since then. Don't think that just because we have been on a 12,000 year cooling trend that it means that the trend will continue. Because it doesn't. We know for sure what caused the cooling trend, and we know that what caused it has changed. We have upset the balance of nature, by adding so my CO2 and CH4 to the atmosphere. Those gases have brought the end to that cooling trend. Expect a warming trend for the next several hundred years, just from the gas concentrations we currently have [cue idiotic Parrot to claim nobody knows nuthin].

I don't think of myself as "special," but I am a little different from most people. For example, how many people do you know of that went to the trouble to build their own Climate Model from scratch, just to know the truth about Global Warming? So I guess that does make me somewhat elite. So far, I haven't noticed anyone trying to support me though.

Funny how you read things into quotes that aren't there. For example, that crazy scheme you are trying to describe does not involve murdering anyone. It suggests that there are some people that need to be sterilized to prevent their genes from spreading.

I don't have an opinion on whether or not that is moral. It doesn't seem like that is right though.

I don't think that we can get by without power to help us grow, process, and transport food. I think there are other ways to generate that power, that aren't detrimental to our environment. And even if those other methods cost more money, we should be using them, and paying more. And I think we should do that willingly.

Can you please explain why you think this example has anything to do Climate Change? Or Me? Or anyone besides the people in the story?

No, that is nothing I would be proud of, nor is it anything that I am interested in. Sounds more like an extension of Hitler's dream of creating the perfect race.

But you know what, it does resemble what is about to occur naturally. Because those who survive what's coming will be the seed for the next generation of humanity, which becomes a new root race. And that does require that the "less than desirable" people eliminate themselves through attrition.

That's not the side of things that I want to be on. But I understand there most people will choose that side. I think this is why we were warned by the prophets to not become glutinous, greedy, or covetous. It is those qualities that make it difficult to leave our current world behind. It is unfortunate that we have to leave our current world, before entering our new world. It's on the other side of the destruction, which is just through the gates of Hell, which are opening now, in a theatre near you.

Wake wrote:

"A legendary pagan deity who roams the woodlands of the British Isles and Europe. He usually is depicted as a horned man peering out of a mask of foliage, usually the sacred oak. He is known by other names such as "Green Jack, "Jack-in-the-Green" and "Green George." He represents spirits of trees, plants and foliage. It is believed he has rain making powers to foster livestock with lush meadows. He was frequently depicted in medieval art, including church decorations."

So the man quoting the bible idolizes a pagan deity?

YOU built your own climate model? How?

If you think you're smart enough to "build your own climate model" why is it that you are unaware that the levels of CO2 were above 5,000 ppm during one ice age? Why is it that you appear to be totally unaware that the atmosphere once contained 42% CO2?

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide_in_Earth%27s_atmosphere#/media/File

hanerozoic_Carbon_Dioxide.png[/url]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age#/media/File:GlaciationsinEarthExistancelicenced_annotated.jpg

I will ask you again - how did you "build" your own climate model?

GreenMan wrote:
I began building my Climate Model by finding the data I needed. I found most of it in the studies done on the ice at EPICA Dome C. There I found the past temperature, CO2, CH4, N2O, and Dust levels. I also needed what the insulation was, since it varied over time due to the Milankovitch Effect. I found that a man named Berger made the calculations I needed, and went with that.

After I had the data I needed, I set about the task of writing an algorithm that took those things into consideration, and produced a temperature that could be compared to the actual temperature. It took quite a long time to do that, for various reasons. The first problem was lining the data up. I had a lot more data on CO2 than on CH4, for example, and a lot more temperature and dust data than anything else. Needless to say, the sample dates didn't line up at all, so how to calculate the temperature for 100,000 years ago was impossible, because there may have been 10 temperature records around that time, and 2 CO2 records, and no CH4 record. The solution I decided on was to average all the data, and use 1,000 year averages of everything. So I set about calculating all those averages. That was quite a daunting task, so I wrote an algorithm that would do that for me.

After I had my data in 1,000 year averages, I was able to attemp my first algorithm, to see what it looked like. Well, it didn't look anything like the actual temperature record, and there was no amount of tweaking that could bring it in. The temperature span simply couldn't be achieved, the way I was doing it. I could get the highs close, but the lows were nowhere near where they should be, for example.

The method I was using was pretty simple. I started with heat frost he sun, or insulation. That is the primary ingredient in our temperature. It is expressed in W/m2, so I decided to keep that unit, and simply give each of the other forcing components a W/m2 value, calculated by the component's value. For example, who not simply multiply the CO2 level by 1000, and just add that number to the insulation directly, as if it were increasing it slightly.

That doesn't work, no matter what number you use to multiply with, even if you vary that number depending on which component you are tweaking. No amount of tweaking will make that work.

It eventually occurred to me that I should try another way to convert each of the components from concentration levels to insulation, and decided to try raising the concentration level to the next power. That helped things a bit, because it increased the span [difference between maximum and minimum], but it didn't increase it enough. I tried raising each to the power of 3, and then 4 before things looked like they should.

Something that should be mentioned is that I used the actual concentration value as it is typically expressed. For example, I used 320 as the value to take the 4th power, not .000320 to represent 320 ppm. I did try using the actual values, but it doesn't work because the number gets smaller when it is take to the 4th power, if it begins as a decimal. Of course, taking a number like 320 to the 4th power makes a big number that is way out of proportion to the original insulation. So I divided whatever that was, by a constant value, which I discovered by tweaking. By that, I mean I started with some arbitrary value for that constant. Then I changed it, and observed the result. Did the backcast get better, or worse? If it got better, add to it some more and try it. If it got worse, try going the other way and see what it does. After a while, I was able to produce a graph like the one I have shown here, that shows how close the temperature can be calculated, based on heat from the sun, dust in the air, and the Greenhouse Gas concentrations.

I did that back in 2008, after being laid off at work. It took quite a long time to finally find another job, so I had plenty of time to spend doing research like that.

I don't see why you think that a character like the real Greenman, which is a pagan deity as you said, should not be used by someone who believes in the Bible. He's not a God, he is the Gardener. He plants the seeds, from which we grow. If you have a problem with that, then perhaps you need to spend some time reading the Bible for yourself, rather than just listen to Christian preachers spouting the bullshit. If you knew anything about the prophecies of the Bible, you would know that Isaiah describes himself in the same way. Or, actually, I think his old lady is the one who described him like that. [See Isaiah 5]

You can find him in most cultures from around the world. The Phoenix, for example. Kukulkan is another example of the same guy from South America. The Hopi call him Pahana, or the True White Brother, because he is Pahana [White Man], but he is not like other Pahana. They say that he will be a white boy, from our country, when he walks on earth, during the fulfillment. Imagine that, lol.

Most people don't know that the Chris went everywhere in his previous lives, and told people basically the same things. They wrote those things down, and built religions on what they thought those things meant. Some of those religions are around today, but most of them died out with the people that kept them. He spent time in virtually every part of the world, teaching whoever he lived with about the future of our planet. That is why the Mayan prophecies, for example, talk about the same things as the prophecies from the Bible. I'm sure you didn't know that either, and will point out how the world didn't end in 2012, like the Mayans predicted it would. Of course, you will say that, because you don't have a clue about what the Mayans actually said would happen in 2012, when their calendar wraps back to the beginning.

You think they predicted the end of the world, because that is how some idiotic author concluded that, somehow. If you do the research, you will find that the only thing the Maya said about 2012 is that Bolen Yokte Ku would be present on earth. Well, if you know who that guy is, the idiot wasn't far off, because that is a bad boy. He is the king of the Underworld, and the only one powerful enough to defeat him is Kukulkan. And Bolen Yokte Ku would destroy the planet, if not for Kukulkan. So I like Kukulkan too, because Bolen Yokte Ku would kill us all, and it would be the end of the world, if not for Kukulkan.

I'm sure that sounds like a bunch of bullshit, and has no parallel in the Bible, but that is because you don't know what the Bible actually says. That story too, can be found in the book of Isaiah, and many other books of the Bible. Kukulkan is just another name for the Messiah, whose name is also given as it will be during his life during the fulfillment. Like anyone else, he has a different name each time he lives, so we have different names for him. Many different names. But if you know what he does during the fulfillment, you can figure out what his name is.

Have you figured out what his name is yet?

If you haven't, you need to, because when he comes around, you need to know it, because if you don't know who he is, he will slap you around like a bitch, according to the Hopi.

Ah, and you thought that when the Messiah shows up that he would be all nice, and bubbly, and warm and fuzzy, didn't you?

Funny how screwed up religion makes people.

Oh, if you want to spend some good quality hours finding out more about him, try doing a search on the Trickster, or the Coyote. The Native Americans knew all about him, and described him in the stories they would tell about him. Many of them are totally hilarious, especially if you know who it is they are talking about.

Wake wrote:

GreenMan wrote:
I began building my Climate Model by finding the data I needed. I found most of it in the studies done on the ice at EPICA Dome C. There I found the past temperature, CO2, CH4, N2O, and Dust levels. I also needed what the insulation was, since it varied over time due to the Milankovitch Effect. I found that a man named Berger made the calculations I needed, and went with that.

After I had the data I needed, I set about the task of writing an algorithm that took those things into consideration, and produced a temperature that could be compared to the actual temperature. It took quite a long time to do that, for various reasons. The first problem was lining the data up. I had a lot more data on CO2 than on CH4, for example, and a lot more temperature and dust data than anything else. Needless to say, the sample dates didn't line up at all, so how to calculate the temperature for 100,000 years ago was impossible, because there may have been 10 temperature records around that time, and 2 CO2 records, and no CH4 record. The solution I decided on was to average all the data, and use 1,000 year averages of everything. So I set about calculating all those averages. That was quite a daunting task, so I wrote an algorithm that would do that for me.

After I had my data in 1,000 year averages, I was able to attemp my first algorithm, to see what it looked like. Well, it didn't look anything like the actual temperature record, and there was no amount of tweaking that could bring it in. The temperature span simply couldn't be achieved, the way I was doing it. I could get the highs close, but the lows were nowhere near where they should be, for example.

The method I was using was pretty simple. I started with heat frost he sun, or insulation. That is the primary ingredient in our temperature. It is expressed in W/m2, so I decided to keep that unit, and simply give each of the other forcing components a W/m2 value, calculated by the component's value. For example, who not simply multiply the CO2 level by 1000, and just add that number to the insulation directly, as if it were increasing it slightly.

That doesn't work, no matter what number you use to multiply with, even if you vary that number depending on which component you are tweaking. No amount of tweaking will make that work.

It eventually occurred to me that I should try another way to convert each of the components from concentration levels to insulation, and decided to try raising the concentration level to the next power. That helped things a bit, because it increased the span [difference between maximum and minimum], but it didn't increase it enough. I tried raising each to the power of 3, and then 4 before things looked like they should.

Something that should be mentioned is that I used the actual concentration value as it is typically expressed. For example, I used 320 as the value to take the 4th power, not .000320 to represent 320 ppm. I did try using the actual values, but it doesn't work because the number gets smaller when it is take to the 4th power, if it begins as a decimal. Of course, taking a number like 320 to the 4th power makes a big number that is way out of proportion to the original insulation. So I divided whatever that was, by a constant value, which I discovered by tweaking. By that, I mean I started with some arbitrary value for that constant. Then I changed it, and observed the result. Did the backcast get better, or worse? If it got better, add to it some more and try it. If it got worse, try going the other way and see what it does. After a while, I was able to produce a graph like the one I have shown here, that shows how close the temperature can be calculated, based on heat from the sun, dust in the air, and the Greenhouse Gas concentrations.

I did that back in 2008, after being laid off at work. It took quite a long time to finally find another job, so I had plenty of time to spend doing research like that.

I don't see why you think that a character like the real Greenman, which is a pagan deity as you said, should not be used by someone who believes in the Bible. He's not a God, he is the Gardener. He plants the seeds, from which we grow. If you have a problem with that, then perhaps you need to spend some time reading the Bible for yourself, rather than just listen to Christian preachers spouting the bullshit. If you knew anything about the prophecies of the Bible, you would know that Isaiah describes himself in the same way. Or, actually, I think his old lady is the one who described him like that. [See Isaiah 5]

You can find him in most cultures from around the world. The Phoenix, for example. Kukulkan is another example of the same guy from South America. The Hopi call him Pahana, or the True White Brother, because he is Pahana [White Man], but he is not like other Pahana. They say that he will be a white boy, from our country, when he walks on earth, during the fulfillment. Imagine that, lol.

Most people don't know that the Chris went everywhere in his previous lives, and told people basically the same things. They wrote those things down, and built religions on what they thought those things meant. Some of those religions are around today, but most of them died out with the people that kept them. He spent time in virtually every part of the world, teaching whoever he lived with about the future of our planet. That is why the Mayan prophecies, for example, talk about the same things as the prophecies from the Bible. I'm sure you didn't know that either, and will point out how the world didn't end in 2012, like the Mayans predicted it would. Of course, you will say that, because you don't have a clue about what the Mayans actually said would happen in 2012, when their calendar wraps back to the beginning.

You think they predicted the end of the world, because that is how some idiotic author concluded that, somehow. If you do the research, you will find that the only thing the Maya said about 2012 is that Bolen Yokte Ku would be present on earth. Well, if you know who that guy is, the idiot wasn't far off, because that is a bad boy. He is the king of the Underworld, and the only one powerful enough to defeat him is Kukulkan. And Bolen Yokte Ku would destroy the planet, if not for Kukulkan. So I like Kukulkan too, because Bolen Yokte Ku would kill us all, and it would be the end of the world, if not for Kukulkan.

I'm sure that sounds like a bunch of bullshit, and has no parallel in the Bible, but that is because you don't know what the Bible actually says. That story too, can be found in the book of Isaiah, and many other books of the Bible. Kukulkan is just another name for the Messiah, whose name is also given as it will be during his life during the fulfillment. Like anyone else, he has a different name each time he lives, so we have different names for him. Many different names. But if you know what he does during the fulfillment, you can figure out what his name is.

Have you figured out what his name is yet?

If you haven't, you need to, because when he comes around, you need to know it, because if you don't know who he is, he will slap you around like a bitch, according to the Hopi.

Ah, and you thought that when the Messiah shows up that he would be all nice, and bubbly, and warm and fuzzy, didn't you?

Funny how screwed up religion makes people.

Oh, if you want to spend some good quality hours finding out more about him, try doing a search on the Trickster, or the Coyote. The Native Americans knew all about him, and described him in the stories they would tell about him. Many of them are totally hilarious, especially if you know who it is they are talking about.

What credentials do you have for being able to even understand the connections of any of these things?

Have you heard of the Oregon Petition? 30,000 of the best scientists in the world have signed that including:

Dr. Ivar Giaever, Nobel Laureate in physics
Dr. Robert Laughlin, Nobel Laureate in physics
Dr. Richard Lindzen, member of the National Academy of Sciences, professor emeritus of MIT; an atmospheric physicist
Dr. Fred Singer, chief scientist of the U.S. Department of Transportation (1987– 89), vice chairman of the National Advisory Committee for Oceans and Atmosphere (1981–86), founding dean of the School of Environmental and Planetary Sciences in the University of Miami (1964–67), the first director of the National Weather Satellite Service (1962–64); an atmospheric and space physicist.
Dr. William Happer, former director of energy research at the U.S. Department of Energy, professor emeritus of physics of the Princeton University.
Dr. John Christy, distinguished professor of Atmospheric Science and director of the Earth System Science Center at UAH, an atmospheric scientist.
(Roy Spencer and John Christy are co-recipients of NASA's Exceptional Scientific Achievement Medal for global temperature monitoring work with satellites.)
Dr. Willie Soon, an astrophysicist.
Dr. Freeman Dyson, a member of the National Academy of Sciences, London Mathematical Society, NASA Advisory Council (2001-2003); former chairman of Federation of American Scientists (1962-1963); a winner of the Danny Heineman Prize (American Physical Society), Lorentz Medal (Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences), Hughes Medal (The Royal Society), Max Planck Medal (German Physical Society), Oppenheimer Memorial Prize, Harvey Prize, Wolf Prize in Physics, Andrew Gemant Award (American Institute of Physics), Enrico Fermi Award (U.S. Department of Energy); professor emeritus of physics, Princeton University.

Dr. Ross McKitrick, professor of economics.
Stephen McIntyre, a mining expert and businessman.
(Dr. Ross McKitrick and Stephen McIntyre co-authored the first paper, debunking the "hockey stick" fabrication by Michael Mann et al.)

Dr. Patrick Michaels, former president of of the American Association of State Climatologists.
Dr. Sallie Baliunas, astrophysicist.
Dr. Craig Idso, Agronomy and Geography.
Dr. Edward Wegman, a former chair of the National Research Council Committee on Applied and Theoretical Statistics.
Dr. Judith Curry, a former chair of the School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences at the Georgia Institute of Technology, a climatologist.
Dr. David Legates, a former Delaware State climatologist.
Dr. Tim Ball, geography and climatology.
Dr. Roger Revelle,  Al Gore's "mentor" (according to Al Gore).
Dr. Robert Jastrow, the founder and first director of the Goddard Institute for Space Studies (NASA GISS), an astronomer.
Dr. William Nierenberg, chairman of the Carbon Dioxide Assessment Committee (1979-1983) – the first comprehensive research of the alleged "global warming" danger; member of the National Academy of Sciences; director of the Scripps Institution of Oceanography (1965-1986), chairman of the National Advisory Committee on Oceans and Atmosphere (1971-1975), chairman of the Advisory Council of NASA (1978-1982); member of: the White House Task Force on Oceanography (1969-1970), the National Science Board (1972–1978, 1982–1988),  the National Research Council (1978–1984), the Council of the National Academy of Sciences (1979-1982), a physicist.
John Coleman, Weather Channel Founder.
Anthony Watts, editor of the leading web climate publication wattsupwiththat.com, a meteorologist.

Also Dr. Christopher Essex, Dr. Roger Pielke, Jr., Dr. Nir Shaviv, Dr. Sherwood Idso, Dr. Robert Balling, Dr. Arthur Robinson, Dr. Robert Carter and countless other distinguished and competent scientists.

This petition is signed by all of these scientists saying that Climate Change is a hoax.

BUT YOU have developed "a climate model"!

Presently the American taxpayer is being forced to pay $1.5 TRILLION a year on the climate change hoax and you are telling us that we should continue.

You are sick almost beyond belief. YOU HAVE DEVELOPED A CLIMATE MODEL!

Wake wrote:

litesong wrote:

"tipped, the leaky plunger" puffed:... were I the owner of this forum you would be banned.

Yet, "old sick silly sleepy sleezy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner many time threatener wake-me-up", who has now threatened AGW advocates to leave this webcyst (no misspelling), AND now has threatened me, is adored by AGW denier liar whiners.
It is obvious that many AGW denier liar whiners on this webcyst (including "tipped, the leaky plunger") are proud of old sick silly sleepy sleezy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiners & even one many time threatener. AGW denier liar whiners support such ilk, & thus become old sick silly sleepy sleezy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiners AND many time threateners, themselves.
I have restrained myself from adding the many characteristics to "tipped, the leaky plunger". It now becomes my duty to unveil, the well-earned trash characteristics to "tipped, the leaky plunger". It now becomes "old sick silly sleepy sleezy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner many time threatener tipped, the leaky plunger".
Thank you for so clearly delineating your characteristics in your new name.

And were I the manager of this website you would have been gone long long ago when you have nothing to say and continue to say it in continuous rambling nonsense to yourself.

GreenMan wrote:
I began building my Climate Model by finding the data I needed. I found most of it in the studies done on the ice at EPICA Dome C. There I found the past temperature, CO2, CH4, N2O, and Dust levels.

GreenMan wrote:
I also needed what the insulation was, since it varied over time due to the Milankovitch Effect.

GreenMan wrote:
I found that a man named Berger made the calculations I needed, and went with that.

GreenMan wrote:
After I had the data I needed, I set about the task of writing an algorithm that took those things into consideration, and produced a temperature that could be compared to the actual temperature.

GreenMan wrote:
It took quite a long time to do that, for various reasons.

GreenMan wrote:
The first problem was lining the data up. I had a lot more data on CO2 than on CH4, for example, and a lot more temperature and dust data than anything else. Needless to say, the sample dates didn't line up at all, so how to calculate the temperature for 100,000 years ago was impossible, because there may have been 10 temperature records around that time, and 2 CO2 records, and no CH4 record.

GreenMan wrote:
The solution I decided on was to average all the data, and use 1,000 year averages of everything. So I set about calculating all those averages. That was quite a daunting task, so I wrote an algorithm that would do that for me.

GreenMan wrote:
After I had my data in 1,000 year averages, I was able to attemp my first algorithm, to see what it looked like. Well, it didn't look anything like the actual temperature record,

GreenMan wrote:
and there was no amount of tweaking that could bring it in.

GreenMan wrote:
The method I was using was pretty simple. I started with heat frost he sun, or insulation.

GreenMan wrote:
That is the primary ingredient in our temperature.

GreenMan wrote:
It is expressed in W/m2, so I decided to keep that unit, and simply give each of the other forcing components a W/m2 value, calculated by the component's value.

GreenMan wrote:
For example, who not simply multiply the CO2 level by 1000, and just add that number to the insulation directly, as if it were increasing it slightly.

GreenMan wrote:
It eventually occurred to me that I should try another way to convert each of the components from concentration levels to insulation, and decided to try raising the concentration level to the next power. That helped things a bit, because it increased the span [difference between maximum and minimum], but it didn't increase it enough. I tried raising each to the power of 3, and then 4 before things looked like they should.

GreenMan wrote:
Something that should be mentioned is that I used the actual concentration value as it is typically expressed. For example, I used 320 as the value to take the 4th power, not .000320 to represent 320 ppm.

GreenMan wrote:
I did try using the actual values, but it doesn't work because the number gets smaller when it is take to the 4th power, if it begins as a decimal. Of course, taking a number like 320 to the 4th power makes a big number that is way out of proportion to the original insulation. So I divided whatever that was, by a constant value, which I discovered by tweaking.

GreenMan wrote:
By that, I mean I started with some arbitrary value for that constant. Then I changed it, and observed the result.

GreenMan wrote:
Did the backcast get better, or worse? If it got better, add to it some more and try it. If it got worse, try going the other way and see what it does. After a while, I was able to produce a graph like the one I have shown here, that shows how close the temperature can be calculated, based on heat from the sun, dust in the air, and the Greenhouse Gas concentrations.

GreenMan wrote:
I did that back in 2008, after being laid off at work. It took quite a long time to finally find another job, so I had plenty of time to spend doing research like that.

GreenMan wrote:
The Oregon Petition is a joke, just like you.

GreenMan wrote:
Charles Darwin came back from the grave just to prove it, by getting his signature on it. There were very few scientists that actually studied or worked in climatology fields who were on the petition. Most of the signatories were from totally outside their field of expertise.

GreenMan wrote:
So yes, I will take my research over your Oregon Petition as evidence of climate change and future problems related to it. But please feel free to ignore what the real. Climatologists are saying, if that makes you feel better. You have that choice.

"old sick silly sleepy sleezy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner badnight" bluffed: what if litebeer owned the website? The boot would be on the other foot.....

"old sick silly sleepy sleezy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner badnight" bluffed: Consensus is not used in science.

GreenMan wrote:
You Christians are always forcing your beliefs on others, and you are no different, Child of Satan.

"old sick silly sleepy sleazy slimy steenkin' filthy vile reprobate rooting (& rotting) racist pukey proud pig AGW denier liar whiner gazzzed & guzzzling" goofed: I could be....