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The Definition of an Average Climate



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17-07-2020 16:51
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1239)
DRKTS wrote:
Into the Night wrote:

WRONG. All deserts are a desert climate.


Really?

Yes, really.

DRKTS wrote:
So, is the climate of the Antarctic desert the same as that of the Sahara? No.

They are both desert climates. RQAA.

DRKTS wrote:
So, is the climate of the Atacama desert the same as that of the Sonoran Desert? No.

They are both desert climates. RQAA.

DRKTS wrote:
So, is the climate of the Katpana desert the same as that of Death Valley? No.

They are both desert climates. RQAA.

DRKTS wrote:
So, is the climate of the Shoyna desert the same as that of the Kalahari? No.

They are both desert climates. RQAA.

DRKTS wrote:
So, is the climate of the Pearyland desert the same as that of the Australian desert? No.

They are both desert climates. RQAA.

DRKTS wrote:
So, is the climate of the Patagonian desert the same as that of the Gobi desert? No.

They are both desert climates. RQAA.

DRKTS wrote:
And each of these is different in one or more climate parameter than all the others.

Climate is not quantifiable. What "parameters" does climate have? Define "climate parameter".

DRKTS wrote:
Seems you need to do a little research before posting. Same applies for the rest of your responses.

Seems you need to put aside the buzzwords before posting. Maybe your posts would hold some meaning then...
17-07-2020 16:56
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1239)
IBdaMann wrote:
DRATS wrote:And each of these is different in one or more climate parameter than all the others.

However the topic was desert climates before you tried to shift the goalposts to identical climates, hoping no one would notice you pulling a 15c.

15) Pivot Fallacy or Non-sequitur Statement
c) Goalpost or special pleading fallacy.


.

I did in fact notice his M15c, but thanks for highlighting it for others who may have missed it.
17-07-2020 22:37
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13500)
DRKTS wrote:
[quote]Into the Night wrote:

WRONG. All deserts are a desert climate.
[quote]

Really?

Really really.
DRKTS wrote:
So, is the climate of the Antarctic desert the same as that of the Sahara? No.

They are both desert climates. One is also a polar climate.
...deleted lengthy redundancy...
DRKTS wrote:
And each of these is different in one or more climate parameter than all the others.

There are no quantifiable values in climate.
DRKTS wrote:
Seems you need to do a little research before posting. Same applies for the rest of your responses.

Bulverism fallacy.

No argument presented. Semantics fallacies. False dichotomies. RQAA.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
02-08-2020 03:44
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3377)
gfm7175 wrote:...please present your definition of the word 'temperature' as you are going to be using it in this discussion with me.

I define/understand temperature as the amount thermal energy present within an amount of matter.
Thermal energy is the the kinetic motion of atoms and molecules relative to one another.link

HarveyH55 wrote:...Those terms and numbers don't actually have any use or value. What good is declaring a global average temperature, if that temperature rarely, if ever applies to the place where you live?...
I think it's fair to say you think statistics as a whole is BS right Harvey? But I'm asking.
Temperature will try to reach an equilibrium. So for example, if you measure 465C from a lander on Venus the chances it's 0C a few feet away are extremely slim. But statistics at this level is admittedly beyond my ability. I do however believe it's possible to determine an average range with a probability. That this can be done is universally accepted in Science. Note that we can NEVER say we know 100% what it is exactly. It's a range, margin of error, with a probability, confidence level, that the true mean is within the range. Currently Nasa claims that there is a 95% confidence level that the true mean temperature "on" Earth (ground level) is ±0.05°C (link)

DRKTS wrote:
So, is the climate of the Antarctic desert the same as that of the Sahara? No.
Well said. This would be like trying to redefine the word "compensation" to universally apply to everyone in a given profession. But really it's just a stupid attempt to derail debate. We are talking about temperature.

"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is valid for IBD or ITN
Edited on 02-08-2020 03:45
02-08-2020 04:54
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2549)
Statistics are a set of tools, used to better visualize data sets. Any tool can be misused, or incorrectly.
02-08-2020 05:01
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7516)
tmiddles wrote:I define/understand temperature as the amount thermal energy present within an amount of matter.


Problem. You believe in Greenhouse Effect. You believe that earth's amount of thermal energy present (i.e. temperature) somehow increases without any additional energy.

Oooops. Violation of the first law of thermodynamics. Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
02-08-2020 05:18
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3377)
HarveyH55 wrote:
Statistics are a set of tools, used to better visualize data sets. Any tool can be misused, or incorrectly.
I'd agree with that. So do you think it's possible to use statistics correctly to determine the concentration of gases in the atmosphere? How about the albedo of a planet?

Also if statistics is misused isn't it possible to show how? Just like with any other tool.
02-08-2020 05:33
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7516)
tgoebbles wrote: Temperature will try to reach an equilibrium.

The term "equilibrium" does not apply to temperature. It applies to energy flows.

Energy flows do not "try" to reach any sort of equilibrium. The second law of thermodynamics guarantees that two bodies will eventually reach thermal equilibrium, and no energy will be surveyed for its preferences.

tgoebbles wrote: So for example, if you measure 465C from a lander on Venus

Wait a minute. I presume you mean "if the lander measures 465C" because there is no way you can use the lander's thermometer on Venus. There's a huge semantic difference. You are trying to give a Venus probe's measurement the accuracy of a human's "in person" measurement. You keep trying to get this omniscience-derived zero-margin-of-error value entered into evidence as "what we know" as the "temperature of Venus." What we really have is a measurement of unknown accuracy due to the extreme, unreproducible conditions.

... but go ahead, continue ...

tgoebbles wrote: the chances it's 0C a few feet away are extremely slim.

You keep hammering away at this absurd fallacy like it's eventually going to stick but it won't.

If I am about to roll one six-sided die, just because I know that "27" is not a possible outcome does not get me any closer to KNOWING what I am going to roll. Just because I know the set of possible outcomes is { 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 } I do not know what I am going to roll.

Similarly, I can agree with your speculation that there is no point on the solid surface of Venus that is 0C. You still don't know what Venus' average temperature is to any usable accuracy. No one does. You still don't know what Venus' average surface temperature is to any usable accuracy. No one does.

tgoebbles wrote: I do however believe it's possible to determine an average range with a probability.

... and you also erroneously believe this translates to you somehow KNOWING something you don't.

tgoebbles wrote: That this can be done is universally accepted in Science.

This is math, not science.

tgoebbles wrote: Note that we can NEVER say we know 100% what it is exactly.

... but you tell yourself that you do and reveal your error every time you omit any and all margins of error.

Oooops. Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200.




.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
02-08-2020 09:58
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3377)
IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote: the chances it's 0C a few feet away [from 465C] are extremely slim.
...this absurd fallacy...If I am about to roll one six-sided die, just because I know that "27" is not a possible outcome does not get me any closer to KNOWING what I am going to roll.
To compare temperatures of adjacent groups of molecules to "rolling a die" is way off. If you're standing in your computer room, and you smell BS, like really strong and nasty, what are the chances it smells in your kitchen just through the doorway? Pretty good. Why? Because the odor is able to flow from one room to the next. If it's hot enough to melt lead for hours on end, at a dozen different locations on Venus, day or night, then it is highly unlikely we'll find a spot nearby that's freezing.

"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is valid for IBD or ITN
Edited on 02-08-2020 10:23
02-08-2020 10:49
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13500)
tmiddles wrote:
gfm7175 wrote:...please present your definition of the word 'temperature' as you are going to be using it in this discussion with me.

I define/understand temperature as the amount thermal energy present within an amount of matter.

Not the definition of 'temperature'. Mantra 10b.
tmiddles wrote:
...deleted Holy Link...
HarveyH55 wrote:...Those terms and numbers don't actually have any use or value. What good is declaring a global average temperature, if that temperature rarely, if ever applies to the place where you live?...
I think it's fair to say you think statistics as a whole is BS right Harvey? But I'm asking.

Statistics is a branch of mathematics. You deny mathematics.
tmiddles wrote:
Temperature will try to reach an equilibrium.

WRONG. A scalar is not a set. Mantra 25j...10b...
tmiddles wrote:
So for example, if you measure 465C from a lander on Venus the chances it's 0C a few feet away are extremely slim.

Denial of statistical math again. Denial of variance. Denial of margin of error. Mantras 25c2...25c3...
tmiddles wrote:
But statistics at this level is admittedly beyond my ability.

Because you deny mathematics.
tmiddles wrote:
I do however believe it's possible to determine an average range with a probability.

Nope. Probability math has nothing to do with statistical math. Mantras 25c...10b...10g...
tmiddles wrote:
That this can be done is universally accepted in Science.

Science is not mathematics. Math is not science. Mantra 10. You do not get to speak for all or most scientists. You only get to speak for you. Bigotry. Mantra 9b. Science is not scientists. Science doesn't 'accept' anything. Mantras 32...33a...
tmiddles wrote:
Note that we can NEVER say we know 100% what it is exactly.

WRONG. Denial of mathematics. Mantras 9a...
tmiddles wrote:
It's a range, margin of error, with a probability, confidence level, that the true mean is within the range.

Word salad. Mantras 25c1...25c2...25c3...25e...10g...25j...
tmiddles wrote:
Currently Nasa claims that there is a 95% confidence level that the true mean temperature "on" Earth (ground level) is ±0.05°C ...deleted Holy Link...

There is no such thing as a 'confidence level'. NASA does not know the temperature of Earth. It is not possible to measure the temperature of the Earth. NASA is an acronym. The entire thing is capitalized. Mantras 25g...25c3...25e...22d...4f...4d...
tmiddles wrote:
DRKTS wrote:
So, is the climate of the Antarctic desert the same as that of the Sahara? No.
Well said.

Nope. Both the Sahara and Antarctica are both desert climates.
tmiddles wrote:
This would be like trying to redefine the word "compensation" to universally apply to everyone in a given profession.

Word salad. Try English. It works better.
tmiddles wrote:
But really it's just a stupid attempt to derail debate. We are talking about temperature.

WRONG. The discussion was about climate, not temperature. Mantra 16a...16b...10j...

No argument presented. Semantics fallacies. Non-English portions. Denial of mathematics. Denial of science. Bigotry.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
02-08-2020 10:55
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13500)
HarveyH55 wrote:
Statistics are a set of tools, used to better visualize data sets. Any tool can be misused, or incorrectly.

Absolutely correct. The use of statistical math to predict is denying statistical math. The use of statistical math without declaring and justifying the source and value of variance is denying statistical math. Any attempt to use hidden data or random numbers as data is denying statistical math. Any failure to remove biasing influences in collecting the raw data is denying statistical math. Any use of cooked numbers is denying statistical math.

In all these cases, statistical math is being denied, but is misused, and incorrectly....hence the math errors these idiots constantly run into.

This is what news polls and polling organizations do all the time. They are utterly and completely useless. The only poll that counts is the vote, which does not use statistical math at all.

News polls are designed to sway opinion, not measure it. They are nothing more than propaganda.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
02-08-2020 10:57
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13500)
tmiddles wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
Statistics are a set of tools, used to better visualize data sets. Any tool can be misused, or incorrectly.
I'd agree with that.

Lie.
tmiddles wrote:
So do you think it's possible to use statistics correctly to determine the concentration of gases in the atmosphere?

No.
tmiddles wrote:
How about the albedo of a planet?

No.
tmiddles wrote:
Also if statistics is misused isn't it possible to show how?

RQAA.
tmiddles wrote:
Just like with any other tool.

RQAA.

No argument presented. RQAA. Denial of mathematics.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
02-08-2020 11:03
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13500)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote: the chances it's 0C a few feet away [from 465C] are extremely slim.
...this absurd fallacy...If I am about to roll one six-sided die, just because I know that "27" is not a possible outcome does not get me any closer to KNOWING what I am going to roll.
To compare temperatures of adjacent groups of molecules to "rolling a die" is way off.

Nope. He is dead right. Mantra25c2...25c3...25j...
tmiddles wrote:
If you're standing in your computer room, and you smell BS, like really strong and nasty, what are the chances it smells in your kitchen just through the doorway? Pretty good. Why?

Irrelevant. Mantra 16b.
tmiddles wrote:
Because the odor is able to flow from one room to the next.

More irrelevance. Contrivance. Mantras 16b...25f...
tmiddles wrote:
If it's hot enough to melt lead for hours on end, at a dozen different locations on Venus, day or night, then it is highly unlikely we'll find a spot nearby that's freezing.

Mantras 25c2...25c3...25d...25f...25n...

No argument presented. Denial of math.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
02-08-2020 17:20
duncan61
★★★☆☆
(638)
Tmids get the data from East Anglia that shows a slight cooling from 1998.Serious brother what are you trying to prove.We are going to be O.K.
02-08-2020 18:19
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2549)
Into the Night wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
Statistics are a set of tools, used to better visualize data sets. Any tool can be misused, or incorrectly.

Absolutely correct. The use of statistical math to predict is denying statistical math. The use of statistical math without declaring and justifying the source and value of variance is denying statistical math. Any attempt to use hidden data or random numbers as data is denying statistical math. Any failure to remove biasing influences in collecting the raw data is denying statistical math. Any use of cooked numbers is denying statistical math.

In all these cases, statistical math is being denied, but is misused, and incorrectly....hence the math errors these idiots constantly run into.

This is what news polls and polling organizations do all the time. They are utterly and completely useless. The only poll that counts is the vote, which does not use statistical math at all.

News polls are designed to sway opinion, not measure it. They are nothing more than propaganda.


Polls have always been a marketing tool. Companies don't do all that work for free, they are selling a product. The people buying those products don't want the honest truth (usually), they want a product that supports what they are trying to sell the public. Polling is more of and art, or a craft. They can't just make up stuff, and call it true. But they can control pretty much every aspect, and still call it factual, and show their work. It can get pretty shady, but you can't actual say it's a lie, just misleading.

Every tool on the planet, has an intended purpose, and generally used as intended. Occasionally, some people will use some of those tools, with evil intent. How many people have had their heads bashed in with a claw hammer? Stabbed by a screwdriver? It's usually the democrats, who keep hyping the poll numbers, even though they seldom even come close to what the paid for. Biden dies little to nothing, speaks only briefly on occasion, and all the polls really seem to show he's going to win in a landslide. He wasn't doing so hot, before hiding in his basement, and he's done very little since. He had some medical and mental issues, which he needed to get on stage more, to put people at ease, raise confidence he's fit enough, for 4 years. Naming a running mate could give him a boost, but still has found anyone willing to accept.
02-08-2020 22:44
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13500)
https://babylonbee.com/news/biden-campaign-says-he-is-so-close-to-a-vp-pick-he-can-smell-her
03-08-2020 01:42
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7516)
Into the Night wrote:
https://babylonbee.com/news/biden-campaign-says-he-is-so-close-to-a-vp-pick-he-can-smell-her

People have posted on Just Plain Politics that Kamala Harris has been selected but that the Washington Post published it too soon.

Has the decision already been made?

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
03-08-2020 08:44
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★★
(3377)
duncan61 wrote:...We are going to be O.K.
Duncan surely you recongnize the conflict between these two concepts:
1 - It is not possible to know the global temperature
2- We know that it's not going up.

You can't have both.

"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is valid for IBD or ITN
03-08-2020 17:35
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1239)
Into the Night wrote:
https://babylonbee.com/news/biden-campaign-says-he-is-so-close-to-a-vp-pick-he-can-smell-her

I'm a big fan of the Babylon Bee... Their satire is much more accurate than CNN's pathetic attempt at journalism...
03-08-2020 17:39
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1239)
IBdaMann wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
https://babylonbee.com/news/biden-campaign-says-he-is-so-close-to-a-vp-pick-he-can-smell-her

People have posted on Just Plain Politics that Kamala Harris has been selected but that the Washington Post published it too soon.

Has the decision already been made?

.

Yeah, there was a leak that she is "his" choice... We'll have to see if she passed the "sniff test" or not...
03-08-2020 17:50
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1239)
tmiddles wrote:
duncan61 wrote:...We are going to be O.K.
Duncan surely you recongnize the conflict between these two concepts:
1 - It is not possible to know the global temperature
2- We know that it's not going up.

You can't have both.

Both concepts have already been explained to you (via statistical mathematics requirements, laws of science, etc...)


Are you ready to answer your unanswered questions yet? (As you can clearly see, "waiting it out" will not make this request go away) ...
03-08-2020 18:11
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(7516)
gfm7175 wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
https://babylonbee.com/news/biden-campaign-says-he-is-so-close-to-a-vp-pick-he-can-smell-her

People have posted on Just Plain Politics that Kamala Harris has been selected but that the Washington Post published it too soon.

Has the decision already been made?

.

Yeah, there was a leak that she is "his" choice... We'll have to see if she passed the "sniff test" or not...

Of course we need to see if the DNC will allow Biden to have his choice of VP.

.


A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
03-08-2020 18:53
gfm7175Profile picture★★★★☆
(1239)
IBdaMann wrote:
gfm7175 wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
https://babylonbee.com/news/biden-campaign-says-he-is-so-close-to-a-vp-pick-he-can-smell-her

People have posted on Just Plain Politics that Kamala Harris has been selected but that the Washington Post published it too soon.

Has the decision already been made?

.

Yeah, there was a leak that she is "his" choice... We'll have to see if she passed the "sniff test" or not...

Of course we need to see if the DNC will allow Biden to have his choice of VP.

.

I don't think he even remembers who his choice for VP is...
03-08-2020 22:50
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13500)
IBdaMann wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
https://babylonbee.com/news/biden-campaign-says-he-is-so-close-to-a-vp-pick-he-can-smell-her

People have posted on Just Plain Politics that Kamala Harris has been selected but that the Washington Post published it too soon.

Has the decision already been made?

.

https://babylonbee.com/news/biden-excited-to-find-out-who-he-picked-for-vp


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
Edited on 03-08-2020 22:50
03-08-2020 22:53
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13500)
tmiddles wrote:
duncan61 wrote:...We are going to be O.K.
Duncan surely you recongnize the conflict between these two concepts:
1 - It is not possible to know the global temperature
2- We know that it's not going up.

You can't have both.


It is not possible to measure the temperature of the Earth.

We do not know if it is going up or down.

It is not possible for any gas or vapor to make it go up or down.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
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