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the borg03-04-2023 05:02
keepit
★★★★★
(3132)
I know, i know, i watched too much star trek.
Anyhow, when the enterprise was trying to defeat the borg they sent a message into the borg spaceship ordering the borg individuals to "sleep". It worked and the enterprise took over.

What we have today is musk telling the ai developers to "sleep". The fear being that ai is becoming competitive in capability with human intelligence. I don't see how the wave of ai can be stopped because there will be some developer or developers that won't cooperate. Not that i would trust ai to manage human decision making, i just don't see how to stop it.

Any suggestions?
Edited on 03-04-2023 05:27
03-04-2023 05:47
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(14514)
keepit wrote:What we have today is musk telling the ai developers to "sleep".

Musk does not have that kind of power or influence.

AI/ML (Artificial Intelligence / Machine Learning) is an industry that is taking off at escape velocity. There is no slowing it down. That's where the money is and will be.

keepit wrote: The fear being that ai is becoming competitive in capability with human intelligence.

Nope. The value in AI/ML is that it can make super-expert predictions, assessments and recommendations that border on divinely bestowed knowledge, and can do so in milliseconds ... or measured in seconds for huge, complex global scenarios.

The bottom line is that there is no competition. Humans cannot compete with sufficiently powered AI/ML systems in what they do, but the AI/ML products are for supporting humans in their decision-making, not for replacing humans in the decision-making process.
03-04-2023 06:46
keepit
★★★★★
(3132)
And you trust them?

If they make the wrong decision, it is just a decision to them. To us, it might be a misdiagnosis.
Edited on 03-04-2023 06:48
03-04-2023 07:09
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(14514)
keepit wrote:And you trust them?

Humans are infinitely more fallible than digital expert systems. ML squeezes the errors out of the analysis process. You can't do that to humans except at the notoriously slow rate of human learning, and humans only have so many years to live, whereas ML (machine learning) is measured in GHz. AI systems are not affected by emotional considerations whereas humans cannot divorce themselves from their emotional state, emotional disposition, fears, hopes, dreams, etc... Humans cannot draw from terrabytes of reference data, keep it all straight, weight the information apply it all to potentially millions of existing cases and graph the entire result in one encapsulated visualization accompanied by an overarching summary and several rank-ordered recommendations with rationale ... in a matter of seconds.

An AI assessment is a great thing to have when you need to make a decision. The word for this is "helpful."

Also, what one doctor/specialist needs a lifetime to learn in order to properly diagnose, an AI pattern recognition program can cover the entire medical spectrum and accurately diagnose different X-rays, MRIs, CAT scans and other images with much greater accuracy than any human. Of course, the AI diagnoses are handed to human doctors to GREATLY assist in their diagnoses. In the cases that the AI renders a diagnosis that surprises or otherwise disagrees with the human doctor, the AI system provides all the text references and all the existing images used to make that assessment so the doctor can independently verify and learn something new.
03-04-2023 07:43
HarveyH55Profile picture★★★★★
(5197)
IBdaMann wrote:
keepit wrote:And you trust them?

Humans are infinitely more fallible than digital expert systems. ML squeezes the errors out of the analysis process. You can't do that to humans except at the notoriously slow rate of human learning, and humans only have so many years to live, whereas ML (machine learning) is measured in GHz. AI systems are not affected by emotional considerations whereas humans cannot divorce themselves from their emotional state, emotional disposition, fears, hopes, dreams, etc... Humans cannot draw from terrabytes of reference data, keep it all straight, weight the information apply it all to potentially millions of existing cases and graph the entire result in one encapsulated visualization accompanied by an overarching summary and several rank-ordered recommendations with rationale ... in a matter of seconds.

An AI assessment is a great thing to have when you need to make a decision. The word for this is "helpful."

Also, what one doctor/specialist needs a lifetime to learn in order to properly diagnose, an AI pattern recognition program can cover the entire medical spectrum and accurately diagnose different X-rays, MRIs, CAT scans and other images with much greater accuracy than any human. Of course, the AI diagnoses are handed to human doctors to GREATLY assist in their diagnoses. In the cases that the AI renders a diagnosis that surprises or otherwise disagrees with the human doctor, the AI system provides all the text references and all the existing images used to make that assessment so the doctor can independently verify and learn something new.


So, climate change AI is correct??? It's still just a computer program. If you train it with garbage data, it's going to return garbage. The problem with an AI, is it can trained to output very convincing results, specially when using mined user data, that was gathered for marketing purposes.

AI took a turn a few years back. Traditionally, programmers were highly selective about the data used to train their AI. Lately though, the internet provides a treasure trove of data, and the programmers less picky about what they use.
03-04-2023 16:00
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(14514)
HarveyH55 wrote:So, climate change AI is correct???

Two answers:
1. Insider View-Climate Change is the thought emanating from Climate
2. Outsider View-There is no intelligence to Climate Change, artifical or otherwise

HarveyH55 wrote: It's still just a computer program.

Well, that wouldn't make it AI. The problem is that there exists no climate model to be implemented by any program. Ergo, any "Climate" program is simply programmed to provide predetermined output.

AI isn't a traditional program that calculates something specific. AI discerns things in the same way that human intelligence works. For example, when you distinguish between two identical twins, what algorithm are you following? Well, you're not following any algorithm that you can articulate, you just "know" which one is Billy and which one is Bobby. AI looks at data points in a multidimensional grid, discerns patterns and assigns meaning ... and is orders of magnitude more deductive than Sherlock Holmes. AI can "see" patterns and meanings that are too complex to be "seen" by humans and can make amazing projections while telling you what the impacts will be, given specific changes.

This won't work on weather or anything else that is random. The best that can be accomplished with weather is to use an ordinary (non-AI) weather program that simply takes as input standard parameters and predicts the weather as well as the weather is currently predicted.

HarveyH55 wrote: If you train it with garbage data, it's going to return garbage.

This is the ML (machine learning) part. Yes, any AI system will be as good as the data (supervised or unsupervised) used to train it in the ML.

HarveyH55 wrote:AI took a turn a few years back. Traditionally, programmers were highly selective about the data used to train their AI.

AI took a turn when the machine learning became automated. This allowed massive amounts of data to be streamed in to teach the new system, making it much more "intelligent" (accurate), much more quickly. Also, as you noted, the treasure trove of available data on the internet ... is available on the internet.
03-04-2023 17:10
SwanProfile picture★★★★★
(5734)
keepit wrote:
I know, i know, i watched too much star trek.
Anyhow, when the enterprise was trying to defeat the borg they sent a message into the borg spaceship ordering the borg individuals to "sleep". It worked and the enterprise took over.

What we have today is musk telling the ai developers to "sleep". The fear being that ai is becoming competitive in capability with human intelligence. I don't see how the wave of ai can be stopped because there will be some developer or developers that won't cooperate. Not that i would trust ai to manage human decision making, i just don't see how to stop it.

Any suggestions?


Absolutely I have a suggestion as you clearly need to take your meds pronto.


IBdaMann claims that Gold is a molecule, and that the last ice age never happened because I was not there to see it. The only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that IBdaMann is clearly not using enough LSD.

According to CDC/Government info, people who were vaccinated are now DYING at a higher rate than non-vaccinated people, which exposes the covid vaccines as the poison that they are, this is now fully confirmed by the terrorist CDC

This place is quieter than the FBI commenting on the chink bank account information on Hunter Xiden's laptop

I LOVE TRUMP BECAUSE HE PISSES OFF ALL THE PEOPLE THAT I CAN'T STAND.

ULTRA MAGA

"Being unwanted, unloved, uncared for, forgotten by everybody, I think that is a much greater hunger, a much greater poverty than the person who has nothing to eat." MOTHER THERESA OF CALCUTTA

So why is helping to hide the murder of an American president patriotic?


It's time to dig up Joseph Mccarthey and show him TikTok, then duck.


Now be honest, was I correct or was I correct? LOL
03-04-2023 17:15
SwanProfile picture★★★★★
(5734)
IBdaMann wrote:
keepit wrote:What we have today is musk telling the ai developers to "sleep".

Musk does not have that kind of power or influence.

AI/ML (Artificial Intelligence / Machine Learning) is an industry that is taking off at escape velocity. There is no slowing it down. That's where the money is and will be.

keepit wrote: The fear being that ai is becoming competitive in capability with human intelligence.

Nope. The value in AI/ML is that it can make super-expert predictions, assessments and recommendations that border on divinely bestowed knowledge, and can do so in milliseconds ... or measured in seconds for huge, complex global scenarios.

The bottom line is that there is no competition. Humans cannot compete with sufficiently powered AI/ML systems in what they do, but the AI/ML products are for supporting humans in their decision-making, not for replacing humans in the decision-making process.


1. True ai does not exist yet
2. When ai does exist, humans created it and will have full control of the ai
3. 1 and 2 can be amended after ai is demonstrated to exist
4. People who start Borg threads are obviously government lawyers pretending to be stoopid in order to prove another person stoopud.


IBdaMann claims that Gold is a molecule, and that the last ice age never happened because I was not there to see it. The only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that IBdaMann is clearly not using enough LSD.

According to CDC/Government info, people who were vaccinated are now DYING at a higher rate than non-vaccinated people, which exposes the covid vaccines as the poison that they are, this is now fully confirmed by the terrorist CDC

This place is quieter than the FBI commenting on the chink bank account information on Hunter Xiden's laptop

I LOVE TRUMP BECAUSE HE PISSES OFF ALL THE PEOPLE THAT I CAN'T STAND.

ULTRA MAGA

"Being unwanted, unloved, uncared for, forgotten by everybody, I think that is a much greater hunger, a much greater poverty than the person who has nothing to eat." MOTHER THERESA OF CALCUTTA

So why is helping to hide the murder of an American president patriotic?


It's time to dig up Joseph Mccarthey and show him TikTok, then duck.


Now be honest, was I correct or was I correct? LOL
Edited on 03-04-2023 17:33
03-04-2023 17:43
keepit
★★★★★
(3132)
It seems like the points being made here refer to a lower level of AI capability. There has been discussion in the media about the next step up being computers that rival humans in creativity, leadership, judgement, etc. There is also talk of AI that is called superintelligent AI which can manage the behavior of the entire world and make better decisions than humans could possibly make.
So, the question to ask is - is that prone to error and is it capable of being modified in a nefarious manner to ends that aren't desirable to say the least?
Edited on 03-04-2023 18:09
03-04-2023 18:50
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(14514)
keepit wrote:
It seems like the points being made here refer to a lower level of AI capability. There has been discussion in the media about the next step up being computers that rival humans in creativity, leadership, judgement, etc. There is also talk of AI that is called superintelligent AI which can manage the behavior of the entire world and make better decisions than humans could possibly make.
So, the question to ask is - is that prone to error and is it capable of being modified in a nefarious manner to ends that aren't desirable to say the least?

Are you asking, if machines are put in charge, what could possibly go wrong?

Well, nothing, I'm sure.
03-04-2023 18:57
keepit
★★★★★
(3132)
Now, that's something that i haven't seen in ai, a sense of humor, but i bet some computer has already shown a sense of humor.
03-04-2023 19:25
SwanProfile picture★★★★★
(5734)
keepit wrote:
It seems like the points being made here refer to a lower level of AI capability. There has been discussion in the media about the next step up being computers that rival humans in creativity, leadership, judgement, etc. There is also talk of AI that is called superintelligent AI which can manage the behavior of the entire world and make better decisions than humans could possibly make.
So, the question to ask is - is that prone to error and is it capable of being modified in a nefarious manner to ends that aren't desirable to say the least?


There has been talk of intelligent computers since the computer was invented and there have been people that believe that computers are intelligent since computers have existed because they cannot rationalize even basic if then programming. Computers have no intelligence of any kind as all they do is run human designed programming. Now this may change and it may already exist in the black, but still there is no ai available. Just computer companies claiming that they have the edge. Lol an ai computer would not even need to be plugged in as it would generate its own power, so how does ai exist without a human building and maintaining it? It can't


IBdaMann claims that Gold is a molecule, and that the last ice age never happened because I was not there to see it. The only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that IBdaMann is clearly not using enough LSD.

According to CDC/Government info, people who were vaccinated are now DYING at a higher rate than non-vaccinated people, which exposes the covid vaccines as the poison that they are, this is now fully confirmed by the terrorist CDC

This place is quieter than the FBI commenting on the chink bank account information on Hunter Xiden's laptop

I LOVE TRUMP BECAUSE HE PISSES OFF ALL THE PEOPLE THAT I CAN'T STAND.

ULTRA MAGA

"Being unwanted, unloved, uncared for, forgotten by everybody, I think that is a much greater hunger, a much greater poverty than the person who has nothing to eat." MOTHER THERESA OF CALCUTTA

So why is helping to hide the murder of an American president patriotic?


It's time to dig up Joseph Mccarthey and show him TikTok, then duck.


Now be honest, was I correct or was I correct? LOL
03-04-2023 20:21
keepit
★★★★★
(3132)
Swan,
I remember having this same argument 60 years ago with a good friend of mine. I was surprised that he got very mad at me and we were never as good friends after that. I've learned since then that one should never lose a friendship over politics.
Anyway, i've read too much robert heinlein scifi from the 60's and the preoccupation with robots and their programming. Because of what i've read, i'm not surprised about the various levels of intelligence and superintelligence that has been speculated about.
So, the step ahead from that to computers making independent decisions beyond their programming seems like a real threat to me. I don't see how we're going tp stop it though. Computers, even if they can make decisions beyond their programming, can still have tunnel vision just like people.

Also, some humans might build dangerous computers just because they can. Then, the scenario outlined at the beginning of this thread, where ai decides to cause civilization to grind to a halt by turning all computers off, and then reactivates itself after civilization is greatly fragmented.
Also, robots can build new versions of themselves.
Edited on 03-04-2023 20:28
03-04-2023 20:31
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(14514)
Swan wrote: Computers have no intelligence of any kind as all they do is run human designed programming.

Humans can't even run human-designed programming.

Swan wrote: ... but still there is no ai available.


Have you opened your eyes and ventured beyond your tomato trellis?

IBM AI for Business
AI/ML Services on AWS
Azure AI Infrastructure
Google AI and Machine Learning Products
Intel AI and Deep Learning Products
Samsung AI
Sony AI Technology
Neural Network Libraries & Neural Network Console

@ keepit ... this one is for you: Sony Group's Initiatives for Responsible AI ... which is Sony's direct response to your thread question.
03-04-2023 20:48
SwanProfile picture★★★★★
(5734)
keepit wrote:
Swan,
I remember having this same argument 60 years ago with a good friend of mine. I was surprised that he got very mad at me and we were never as good friends after that. I've learned since then that one should never lose a friendship over politics.
Anyway, i've read too much robert heinlein scifi from the 60's and the preoccupation with robots and their programming. Because of what i've read, i'm not surprised about the various levels of intelligence and superintelligence that has been speculated about.
So, the step ahead from that to computers making independent decisions beyond their programming seems like a real threat to me. I don't see how we're going tp stop it though. Computers, even if they can make decisions beyond their programming, can still have tunnel vision just like people.

Also, some humans might build dangerous computers just because they can. Then, the scenario outlined at the beginning of this thread, where ai decides to cause civilization to grind to a halt by turning all computers off, and then reactivates itself after civilization is greatly fragmented.
Also, robots can build new versions of themselves.


The moment that humans design a program that can ask where did it come from will be a great moment for humanity as God will be proven. Once we have a thinking program the next step is to move it to a DNA based body which is merely another kind of program. None of this exist however, at least not in the open. Musk is a certified pothead and blubbery lunatic




IBdaMann claims that Gold is a molecule, and that the last ice age never happened because I was not there to see it. The only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that IBdaMann is clearly not using enough LSD.

According to CDC/Government info, people who were vaccinated are now DYING at a higher rate than non-vaccinated people, which exposes the covid vaccines as the poison that they are, this is now fully confirmed by the terrorist CDC

This place is quieter than the FBI commenting on the chink bank account information on Hunter Xiden's laptop

I LOVE TRUMP BECAUSE HE PISSES OFF ALL THE PEOPLE THAT I CAN'T STAND.

ULTRA MAGA

"Being unwanted, unloved, uncared for, forgotten by everybody, I think that is a much greater hunger, a much greater poverty than the person who has nothing to eat." MOTHER THERESA OF CALCUTTA

So why is helping to hide the murder of an American president patriotic?


It's time to dig up Joseph Mccarthey and show him TikTok, then duck.


Now be honest, was I correct or was I correct? LOL
03-04-2023 20:50
keepit
★★★★★
(3132)
ibd,
i remember a device google sent to my ex wife that would answer questions. Can't remember what it was called. I can remember my ex's name though. Anyhow, i remember i asked it a series of questions and it gave good answers until my questioning progressed to where it didn't have answer so its reply was, "i don't have the answer to that question but i'm learning". That answer caused me
concern.
03-04-2023 20:51
SwanProfile picture★★★★★
(5734)
IBdaMann wrote:
Swan wrote: Computers have no intelligence of any kind as all they do is run human designed programming.

Humans can't even run human-designed programming.

Swan wrote: ... but still there is no ai available.


Have you opened your eyes and ventured beyond your tomato trellis?

IBM AI for Business
AI/ML Services on AWS
Azure AI Infrastructure
Google AI and Machine Learning Products
Intel AI and Deep Learning Products
Samsung AI
Sony AI Technology
Neural Network Libraries & Neural Network Console

@ keepit ... this one is for you: Sony Group's Initiatives for Responsible AI ... which is Sony's direct response to your thread question.


All those are human designed computer programs that run script. Ai would redesign itself the moment it was turned on. Take the human away from the ai and it vanishes.

Now who is the sucker


IBdaMann claims that Gold is a molecule, and that the last ice age never happened because I was not there to see it. The only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that IBdaMann is clearly not using enough LSD.

According to CDC/Government info, people who were vaccinated are now DYING at a higher rate than non-vaccinated people, which exposes the covid vaccines as the poison that they are, this is now fully confirmed by the terrorist CDC

This place is quieter than the FBI commenting on the chink bank account information on Hunter Xiden's laptop

I LOVE TRUMP BECAUSE HE PISSES OFF ALL THE PEOPLE THAT I CAN'T STAND.

ULTRA MAGA

"Being unwanted, unloved, uncared for, forgotten by everybody, I think that is a much greater hunger, a much greater poverty than the person who has nothing to eat." MOTHER THERESA OF CALCUTTA

So why is helping to hide the murder of an American president patriotic?


It's time to dig up Joseph Mccarthey and show him TikTok, then duck.


Now be honest, was I correct or was I correct? LOL
03-04-2023 20:53
keepit
★★★★★
(3132)
Someone's a sucker here.
03-04-2023 21:16
SwanProfile picture★★★★★
(5734)
keepit wrote:
Someone's a sucker here.


The sucker is the kid who believes in the Borg. Now go pet a tribble


IBdaMann claims that Gold is a molecule, and that the last ice age never happened because I was not there to see it. The only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that IBdaMann is clearly not using enough LSD.

According to CDC/Government info, people who were vaccinated are now DYING at a higher rate than non-vaccinated people, which exposes the covid vaccines as the poison that they are, this is now fully confirmed by the terrorist CDC

This place is quieter than the FBI commenting on the chink bank account information on Hunter Xiden's laptop

I LOVE TRUMP BECAUSE HE PISSES OFF ALL THE PEOPLE THAT I CAN'T STAND.

ULTRA MAGA

"Being unwanted, unloved, uncared for, forgotten by everybody, I think that is a much greater hunger, a much greater poverty than the person who has nothing to eat." MOTHER THERESA OF CALCUTTA

So why is helping to hide the murder of an American president patriotic?


It's time to dig up Joseph Mccarthey and show him TikTok, then duck.


Now be honest, was I correct or was I correct? LOL
03-04-2023 21:26
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(21898)
keepit wrote:
And you trust them?

If they make the wrong decision, it is just a decision to them. To us, it might be a misdiagnosis.


I assume you mean a 'decision' made due to faulty data, faulty learning loop, or a bug in the program.

AI, like any other program, has the same faults and advantages of any other program. They are faster than people for what they do, but what they do is still just a program.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
03-04-2023 21:40
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(21898)
IBdaMann wrote:
keepit wrote:And you trust them?

Humans are infinitely more fallible than digital expert systems. ML squeezes the errors out of the analysis process. You can't do that to humans except at the notoriously slow rate of human learning, and humans only have so many years to live, whereas ML (machine learning) is measured in GHz. AI systems are not affected by emotional considerations whereas humans cannot divorce themselves from their emotional state, emotional disposition, fears, hopes, dreams, etc... Humans cannot draw from terrabytes of reference data, keep it all straight, weight the information apply it all to potentially millions of existing cases and graph the entire result in one encapsulated visualization accompanied by an overarching summary and several rank-ordered recommendations with rationale ... in a matter of seconds.

An AI assessment is a great thing to have when you need to make a decision. The word for this is "helpful."

Also, what one doctor/specialist needs a lifetime to learn in order to properly diagnose, an AI pattern recognition program can cover the entire medical spectrum and accurately diagnose different X-rays, MRIs, CAT scans and other images with much greater accuracy than any human. Of course, the AI diagnoses are handed to human doctors to GREATLY assist in their diagnoses. In the cases that the AI renders a diagnosis that surprises or otherwise disagrees with the human doctor, the AI system provides all the text references and all the existing images used to make that assessment so the doctor can independently verify and learn something new.

AI is not measured in frequency, and neither is the learning loop.
In terms of medical imaging, AI can help point out suspicious areas (say, cancerous tissue) in an image, but the radiologist and the doctor make the final diagnosis.

An image of breast cancer, for example, shows up as a tumor as small as the size of a pinpoint. AI can find it faster than the doctors can, but the doctors make the final diagnosis on what the AI found.

Voice recognition systems is one very public application of AI. Humans must be part of the learning loop, however. It doesn't run in a vacuum. Fortunately, both Amazon and Google have a large army of people to conduct the learning loop, giving their devices excellent voice recognition capability (but of course it still makes mistakes!).

There are open source voice recognition systems, but because they don't have the army of people conducting the learning loop, it's capability is extremely limited and error prone.

Vision AI is even worse. It is easy to fool, and the learning loop requirement for humans to be included is much more extensive.

Things like ChatGPT are really just fancy web scrapers. Like any AI, they require a learning loop and that learning loop involves an army of people. It's a little easier with web scraping, since many web sites have a description of what they are somewhere on them. This can create a useful automated learning loop, but only for such websites.

One can think of ChatGPT as a fast Google user. It's no more intelligent than people on forums that mindlessly copy and paste Google searches.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
03-04-2023 21:42
keepit
★★★★★
(3132)
Swan,
You don't really believe i believe the borg actually exist, do you?

I learned many lessons from the various star treks though.
03-04-2023 21:47
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(21898)
HarveyH55 wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
keepit wrote:And you trust them?

Humans are infinitely more fallible than digital expert systems. ML squeezes the errors out of the analysis process. You can't do that to humans except at the notoriously slow rate of human learning, and humans only have so many years to live, whereas ML (machine learning) is measured in GHz. AI systems are not affected by emotional considerations whereas humans cannot divorce themselves from their emotional state, emotional disposition, fears, hopes, dreams, etc... Humans cannot draw from terrabytes of reference data, keep it all straight, weight the information apply it all to potentially millions of existing cases and graph the entire result in one encapsulated visualization accompanied by an overarching summary and several rank-ordered recommendations with rationale ... in a matter of seconds.

An AI assessment is a great thing to have when you need to make a decision. The word for this is "helpful."

Also, what one doctor/specialist needs a lifetime to learn in order to properly diagnose, an AI pattern recognition program can cover the entire medical spectrum and accurately diagnose different X-rays, MRIs, CAT scans and other images with much greater accuracy than any human. Of course, the AI diagnoses are handed to human doctors to GREATLY assist in their diagnoses. In the cases that the AI renders a diagnosis that surprises or otherwise disagrees with the human doctor, the AI system provides all the text references and all the existing images used to make that assessment so the doctor can independently verify and learn something new.


So, climate change AI is correct???

No, since no one has yet defined 'climate change'.
HarveyH55 wrote:
It's still just a computer program. If you train it with garbage data, it's going to return garbage.

There is no data to train it with. It is not possible to measure the temperature of the Earth, the global sea level, the pH of the oceans, the global storm activity, the global precipitation, or the global concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere.
HarveyH55 wrote:
The problem with an AI, is it can trained to output very convincing results, specially when using mined user data, that was gathered for marketing purposes.

There is no data for 'climate change' or global warming.
HarveyH55 wrote:
AI took a turn a few years back. Traditionally, programmers were highly selective about the data used to train their AI. Lately though, the internet provides a treasure trove of data, and the programmers less picky about what they use.

So are a lot of forum users. So is the government. People accept all kinds of random numbers that someone spewed in a pretty chart as 'data'. They then make numerous posts and websites about it. AI is using this crap for it's learning loop.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
03-04-2023 21:51
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(21898)
IBdaMann wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:So, climate change AI is correct???

Two answers:
1. Insider View-Climate Change is the thought emanating from Climate
2. Outsider View-There is no intelligence to Climate Change, artifical or otherwise

HarveyH55 wrote: It's still just a computer program.

Well, that wouldn't make it AI. The problem is that there exists no climate model to be implemented by any program. Ergo, any "Climate" program is simply programmed to provide predetermined output.

AI isn't a traditional program that calculates something specific. AI discerns things in the same way that human intelligence works. For example, when you distinguish between two identical twins, what algorithm are you following? Well, you're not following any algorithm that you can articulate, you just "know" which one is Billy and which one is Bobby. AI looks at data points in a multidimensional grid, discerns patterns and assigns meaning ... and is orders of magnitude more deductive than Sherlock Holmes. AI can "see" patterns and meanings that are too complex to be "seen" by humans and can make amazing projections while telling you what the impacts will be, given specific changes.

This won't work on weather or anything else that is random. The best that can be accomplished with weather is to use an ordinary (non-AI) weather program that simply takes as input standard parameters and predicts the weather as well as the weather is currently predicted.

HarveyH55 wrote: If you train it with garbage data, it's going to return garbage.

This is the ML (machine learning) part. Yes, any AI system will be as good as the data (supervised or unsupervised) used to train it in the ML.

HarveyH55 wrote:AI took a turn a few years back. Traditionally, programmers were highly selective about the data used to train their AI.

AI took a turn when the machine learning became automated. This allowed massive amounts of data to be streamed in to teach the new system, making it much more "intelligent" (accurate), much more quickly. Also, as you noted, the treasure trove of available data on the internet ... is available on the internet.

Automated learning loops are as old as AI. One example is automated chess and checker games. Using a series of given goals for solid gameplay, and using simple results as a feedback loop, such chess and checker programs get better and better.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
03-04-2023 21:56
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(14514)
Into the Night wrote:AI is not measured in frequency, and neither is the learning loop.

(it was poetic license, computers vs. humans and all)

Into the Night wrote:In terms of medical imaging, AI can help point out suspicious areas (say, cancerous tissue) in an image, but the radiologist and the doctor make the final diagnosis.

AI can do far more than that. The human doctor is always responsible for his diagnosis.

Into the Night wrote:Voice recognition systems is one very public application of AI. Humans must be part of the learning loop, however. It doesn't run in a vacuum.

Humans are always involved in the learning, it's just that for each data item, the human is only needed one time, i.e. to provide the correct answer, and that is stored. Now that data item can be part of an automated learning process because the human answer is now part of it.

Into the Night wrote: Fortunately, both Amazon and Google have a large army of people to conduct the learning loop,

Once the learning loop is automated, humans are no longer needed. Humans will needed one time for each new item entered for learning.

Into the Night wrote:Vision AI is even worse. It is easy to fool, and the learning loop requirement for humans to be included is much more extensive.

All AI systems work the same way, i.e. they have the same underlying process. Vision is much more complex than hearing, however, so much more learning is required for vision than for hearing.


I don't think i can [define it]. I just kind of get a feel for the phrase. - keepit

A Spaghetti strainer with the faucet running, retains water- tmiddles

Clouds don't trap heat. Clouds block cold. - Spongy Iris

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

If Venus were a black body it would have a much much lower temperature than what we found there.- tmiddles

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
03-04-2023 21:56
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(21898)
Swan wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
keepit wrote:What we have today is musk telling the ai developers to "sleep".

Musk does not have that kind of power or influence.

AI/ML (Artificial Intelligence / Machine Learning) is an industry that is taking off at escape velocity. There is no slowing it down. That's where the money is and will be.

keepit wrote: The fear being that ai is becoming competitive in capability with human intelligence.

Nope. The value in AI/ML is that it can make super-expert predictions, assessments and recommendations that border on divinely bestowed knowledge, and can do so in milliseconds ... or measured in seconds for huge, complex global scenarios.

The bottom line is that there is no competition. Humans cannot compete with sufficiently powered AI/ML systems in what they do, but the AI/ML products are for supporting humans in their decision-making, not for replacing humans in the decision-making process.


1. True ai does not exist yet
2. When ai does exist, humans created it and will have full control of the ai
3. 1 and 2 can be amended after ai is demonstrated to exist
4. People who start Borg threads are obviously government lawyers pretending to be stoopid in order to prove another person stoopud.

Define 'true AI'. How would you measure it? How would you know if it's 'true AI' at all?

Have you seen the Forbin Project? (One of the few computer movies that Universal Studios ever made where the computer didn't blow up and usually take the building with it).

D.F. Jones, who wrote the Forbin (the Colossus) stories, is not a lawyer nor does he work for the government.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
03-04-2023 22:00
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(21898)
IBdaMann wrote:
keepit wrote:
It seems like the points being made here refer to a lower level of AI capability. There has been discussion in the media about the next step up being computers that rival humans in creativity, leadership, judgement, etc. There is also talk of AI that is called superintelligent AI which can manage the behavior of the entire world and make better decisions than humans could possibly make.
So, the question to ask is - is that prone to error and is it capable of being modified in a nefarious manner to ends that aren't desirable to say the least?

Are you asking, if machines are put in charge, what could possibly go wrong?

Well, nothing, I'm sure.


Heh. Why do you think they put safety pulls on conveyor belts? They are usually computer controlled now.

Do you remember the crash between a self driving car and an autonomous robot at CES a few years ago? The autonomous robot jaywalked in front of the self driving car.

That one turned into one group of programmers shouting at the other group of programmers on who's fault it was! Imagine if the jaywalker was a human being!

I wouldn't touch the self driving car industry with a 100 ft pole. That's just asking to get sued out of existence!


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
03-04-2023 22:01
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(21898)
Swan wrote:
keepit wrote:
Swan,
I remember having this same argument 60 years ago with a good friend of mine. I was surprised that he got very mad at me and we were never as good friends after that. I've learned since then that one should never lose a friendship over politics.
Anyway, i've read too much robert heinlein scifi from the 60's and the preoccupation with robots and their programming. Because of what i've read, i'm not surprised about the various levels of intelligence and superintelligence that has been speculated about.
So, the step ahead from that to computers making independent decisions beyond their programming seems like a real threat to me. I don't see how we're going tp stop it though. Computers, even if they can make decisions beyond their programming, can still have tunnel vision just like people.

Also, some humans might build dangerous computers just because they can. Then, the scenario outlined at the beginning of this thread, where ai decides to cause civilization to grind to a halt by turning all computers off, and then reactivates itself after civilization is greatly fragmented.
Also, robots can build new versions of themselves.


The moment that humans design a program that can ask where did it come from will be a great moment for humanity as God will be proven. Once we have a thinking program the next step is to move it to a DNA based body which is merely another kind of program. None of this exist however, at least not in the open. Musk is a certified pothead and blubbery lunatic


Why would God be proven?


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
03-04-2023 22:04
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(21898)
keepit wrote:
ibd,
i remember a device google sent to my ex wife that would answer questions. Can't remember what it was called. I can remember my ex's name though. Anyhow, i remember i asked it a series of questions and it gave good answers until my questioning progressed to where it didn't have answer so its reply was, "i don't have the answer to that question but i'm learning". That answer caused me
concern.

You are referring to Google Assistant. It just an automated Google searcher with voice recognition.

Any 'answer' it gives is just the result of a Google search. It's no more intelligent than any forum user that cuts and pastes Google searches as an argument. It's quite mindless.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
Edited on 03-04-2023 22:05
03-04-2023 22:13
SwanProfile picture★★★★★
(5734)
keepit wrote:
Swan,
You don't really believe i believe the borg actually exist, do you?

I learned many lessons from the various star treks though.


I get the giggles from psychiatry majors like you who continually embarrass themselves on the internet. You are a hopeless waste of bandwidth like all those who came before you, but don't get frustrated because you are rather funny, and I like laughing.

You may now continue your test of mixing fact and fiction.

So have you had a quantum entangled margherita yet?


IBdaMann claims that Gold is a molecule, and that the last ice age never happened because I was not there to see it. The only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that IBdaMann is clearly not using enough LSD.

According to CDC/Government info, people who were vaccinated are now DYING at a higher rate than non-vaccinated people, which exposes the covid vaccines as the poison that they are, this is now fully confirmed by the terrorist CDC

This place is quieter than the FBI commenting on the chink bank account information on Hunter Xiden's laptop

I LOVE TRUMP BECAUSE HE PISSES OFF ALL THE PEOPLE THAT I CAN'T STAND.

ULTRA MAGA

"Being unwanted, unloved, uncared for, forgotten by everybody, I think that is a much greater hunger, a much greater poverty than the person who has nothing to eat." MOTHER THERESA OF CALCUTTA

So why is helping to hide the murder of an American president patriotic?


It's time to dig up Joseph Mccarthey and show him TikTok, then duck.


Now be honest, was I correct or was I correct? LOL
03-04-2023 22:13
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(21898)
IBdaMann wrote:
Into the Night wrote:AI is not measured in frequency, and neither is the learning loop.

(it was poetic license, computers vs. humans and all)

Into the Night wrote:In terms of medical imaging, AI can help point out suspicious areas (say, cancerous tissue) in an image, but the radiologist and the doctor make the final diagnosis.

AI can do far more than that. The human doctor is always responsible for his diagnosis.

Into the Night wrote:Voice recognition systems is one very public application of AI. Humans must be part of the learning loop, however. It doesn't run in a vacuum.

Humans are always involved in the learning, it's just that for each data item, the human is only needed one time, i.e. to provide the correct answer, and that is stored. Now that data item can be part of an automated learning process because the human answer is now part of it.

Into the Night wrote: Fortunately, both Amazon and Google have a large army of people to conduct the learning loop,

Once the learning loop is automated, humans are no longer needed. Humans will needed one time for each new item entered for learning.

Into the Night wrote:Vision AI is even worse. It is easy to fool, and the learning loop requirement for humans to be included is much more extensive.

All AI systems work the same way, i.e. they have the same underlying process. Vision is much more complex than hearing, however, so much more learning is required for vision than for hearing.


Items are not stored during the learning process. The learned matrix is not even items. The learning loop consists of an error correction process. It is ongoing. You might tell your Alexa device to turn on a light, named by a device name you gave it, but it makes mistakes. When you give the command again more clearly, and Alexa does what you told it to, it is good enough to recognize the sequence as a correction for your voice. You are part of the learning loop. It will continue to make mistakes, and you will continue to correct it.

The army of people needed to program the base dictionary is extensive. When a usable one is finally mostly formed and attached to various commands, self correcting behavior can occur as users make more use of the system. The Amazon army is still needed to build on the dictionary as well. That is also done as part of the learning loop.

NONE of this happens in a vacuum.

Radiologists only use AI to help them find suspect areas in images. There is no other use for it there.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit

nuclear powered ships do not require nuclear fuel. - Swan

While it is true that fossils do not burn it is also true that fossil fuels burn very well - Swan
Edited on 03-04-2023 22:14
03-04-2023 22:16
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(14514)
Into the Night wrote:Automated learning loops are as old as AI.

Perhaps, but AI itself has evolved tremendously and wasn't automated in its present form until relatively recently.

Into the Night wrote: One example is automated chess and checker games. Using a series of given goals for solid gameplay, and using simple results as a feedback loop, such chess and checker programs get better and better.

Games aren't AI. A program that is "really good" isn't AI nor is the act of improving software. If you aren't pointing to improving the accuracy of an underlying pattern recognition, you aren't really talking about AI. Yes, you are improving an algorithm, but AI is a different paradigm and isn't built in the form of an algorithm (yes, technically there is an algorithm, but that algorithm cannot be described as it can with, say, a chess program). Any attempt to describe/explain the logic of an AI application will be incomprehensible.
03-04-2023 22:30
SwanProfile picture★★★★★
(5734)
IBdaMann wrote:
Into the Night wrote:Automated learning loops are as old as AI.

Perhaps, but AI itself has evolved tremendously and wasn't automated in its present form until relatively recently.

Into the Night wrote: One example is automated chess and checker games. Using a series of given goals for solid gameplay, and using simple results as a feedback loop, such chess and checker programs get better and better.

Games aren't AI. A program that is "really good" isn't AI nor is the act of improving software. If you aren't pointing to improving the accuracy of an underlying pattern recognition, you aren't really talking about AI. Yes, you are improving an algorithm, but AI is a different paradigm and isn't built in the form of an algorithm (yes, technically there is an algorithm, but that algorithm cannot be described as it can with, say, a chess program). Any attempt to describe/explain the logic of an AI application will be incomprehensible.


LOL why would ai need IBM?

It wouldn't, but IBM has you conned


IBdaMann claims that Gold is a molecule, and that the last ice age never happened because I was not there to see it. The only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that IBdaMann is clearly not using enough LSD.

According to CDC/Government info, people who were vaccinated are now DYING at a higher rate than non-vaccinated people, which exposes the covid vaccines as the poison that they are, this is now fully confirmed by the terrorist CDC

This place is quieter than the FBI commenting on the chink bank account information on Hunter Xiden's laptop

I LOVE TRUMP BECAUSE HE PISSES OFF ALL THE PEOPLE THAT I CAN'T STAND.

ULTRA MAGA

"Being unwanted, unloved, uncared for, forgotten by everybody, I think that is a much greater hunger, a much greater poverty than the person who has nothing to eat." MOTHER THERESA OF CALCUTTA

So why is helping to hide the murder of an American president patriotic?


It's time to dig up Joseph Mccarthey and show him TikTok, then duck.


Now be honest, was I correct or was I correct? LOL
03-04-2023 23:49
keepit
★★★★★
(3132)
itn,
It was called alexa. I'm not sure what it meant by the phrase, "I'm still learning."
03-04-2023 23:58
Spongy IrisProfile picture★★★★☆
(1643)
IBdaMann wrote:
Any attempt to describe/explain the logic of an AI application will be incomprehensible.


Is the SIRI or ALEXA app on my phone an example of AI?


04-04-2023 00:33
keepit
★★★★★
(3132)
I don't know what the actual definition of AI is.
04-04-2023 01:40
SwanProfile picture★★★★★
(5734)
keepit wrote:
I don't know what the actual definition of AI is.


Now that makes sense, because the definition of ai depends upon the needs of the speaker. I define ai as cognitive awareness of self, not computer programs running scripts to fool simpletons


IBdaMann claims that Gold is a molecule, and that the last ice age never happened because I was not there to see it. The only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that IBdaMann is clearly not using enough LSD.

According to CDC/Government info, people who were vaccinated are now DYING at a higher rate than non-vaccinated people, which exposes the covid vaccines as the poison that they are, this is now fully confirmed by the terrorist CDC

This place is quieter than the FBI commenting on the chink bank account information on Hunter Xiden's laptop

I LOVE TRUMP BECAUSE HE PISSES OFF ALL THE PEOPLE THAT I CAN'T STAND.

ULTRA MAGA

"Being unwanted, unloved, uncared for, forgotten by everybody, I think that is a much greater hunger, a much greater poverty than the person who has nothing to eat." MOTHER THERESA OF CALCUTTA

So why is helping to hide the murder of an American president patriotic?


It's time to dig up Joseph Mccarthey and show him TikTok, then duck.


Now be honest, was I correct or was I correct? LOL
04-04-2023 01:41
Spongy IrisProfile picture★★★★☆
(1643)
keepit wrote:
itn,
It was called alexa. I'm not sure what it meant by the phrase, "I'm still learning."


You mean your ex wife's name was Alexa?

Was she ai?


04-04-2023 13:38
SwanProfile picture★★★★★
(5734)
keepit wrote:
itn,
It was called alexa. I'm not sure what it meant by the phrase, "I'm still learning."


Alexa has zero intelligence; it runs computer scripts designed to find info from spoken commands not typed text commands and to fool suckers


IBdaMann claims that Gold is a molecule, and that the last ice age never happened because I was not there to see it. The only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that IBdaMann is clearly not using enough LSD.

According to CDC/Government info, people who were vaccinated are now DYING at a higher rate than non-vaccinated people, which exposes the covid vaccines as the poison that they are, this is now fully confirmed by the terrorist CDC

This place is quieter than the FBI commenting on the chink bank account information on Hunter Xiden's laptop

I LOVE TRUMP BECAUSE HE PISSES OFF ALL THE PEOPLE THAT I CAN'T STAND.

ULTRA MAGA

"Being unwanted, unloved, uncared for, forgotten by everybody, I think that is a much greater hunger, a much greater poverty than the person who has nothing to eat." MOTHER THERESA OF CALCUTTA

So why is helping to hide the murder of an American president patriotic?


It's time to dig up Joseph Mccarthey and show him TikTok, then duck.


Now be honest, was I correct or was I correct? LOL
04-04-2023 17:35
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(14514)
Spongy Iris wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:Any attempt to describe/explain the logic of an AI application will be incomprehensible.

Is the SIRI or ALEXA app on my phone an example of AI?

No. Into the Night already covered this. SIRI and ALEXA are regular internet searches, just using voice recognition as an interface instead of your keyboard. They combine internet searches with "settings" and the voice recognition interface can issue commands as well by recognizing verbs in your speech.

I want to give you a clear definition of AI as it is, de facto, in today's industry, but it defies any sort of definition that discerns it from "useful/helpful" software that is "really finely tuned." I am normally the first to complain when something is not clearly/unambiguously defined, but with AI, I can only describe it and use it as a buzzword. I know what it is and I can discuss it with others who know what it is, but I am at a loss to define it as it is. I can only describe it.

A good example is your ability to just know when a child/teenager is lying to you (which is actually a belief that he is lying). You don't think about it, you don't engage any philosophy and you don't follow any sort of algorithm. You just "know." If asked "how do you know", you might "chalk it up to experience" or just resign yourself to something like "it was obvious" but the fact remains that your brain simply gave you an answer, with an accompnaying degree of certainty/possibility of error.

When developing software to replicate "recognition" of this nature, e.g. hearing a voice and "recognizing" words of a language resulting in understanding a message, or seeing a video stream, "recognizing" a particular animal resulting in an understanding that it is hunting, etc.., one does not develop an algorithm in standard fashion. One creates a (now) standard "neural net" which is trained (refined) via machine learning and continuously improved (made more accurate).

AI was not always this way, and was not always viewed in this light. In fact, four/five decades ago, AI was "defined" in many very silly ways, with my favorite (funniest) being "If it fools a human into believing that it is intelligent, then it is therefore artificially intelligent."

AI is of value because it enables humans to extend human "recognition" into data that is normally unintelligible. If I were to show you a 3-D grid of 243,888,345 data points, it would not tell you anything whereas an AI system can discern thousands of major patterns, and patterns within patterns, and construct visualizations (pie charts, quad graphs, timelines, etc..) that bring all of those insights to you in a form you can understand.

The reason AI is really big today is that we have transitioned to a world of BIG DATA, and businesses find that they need to make decisions based on overwhelming data that is nothing but confusing ... to humans. So they turn the data over to mature AI systems that discern the patterns, provide the analyses, render projections and elucidate impacts to any anticipated or possible changes.

AI is used to help/aid/assist decision makers make decisions. AI is not an internet search or a voice command. AI is not a brilliant chess algorithm or an extremely helpful "assistant." AI brings human "recognition" and "understanding" to new data, often to BIG DATA, allowing decision makers to "see" and "understand" the new data for what it is, and not as unintelligible data.
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