stabilize greenhouse gasses

trafn wrote:
@gctimes - These are all very good. Yet, CO2, though the most common GHG, is not the most problematic GHG. CH4, N2O and H2O are going to be of much greater concern as M2C2 progresses (i.e. - the nithane effect).

still learning wrote:
You've got it wrong. Water vapor is now the biggest contributor to the "greenhouse effect."

trafn wrote:
@gctimes - These are all very good. Yet, CO2, though the most common GHG, is not the most problematic GHG. CH4, N2O and H2O are going to be of much greater concern as M2C2 progresses (i.e. - the nithane effect).

gctimes wrote:There is reason for optimism

IBdaMann wrote:

gctimes wrote:There is reason for optimism

I have more than average reason for optimism. I don't believe in any of this Global Warming religion. I am not affected by fear of doom and gloom. I am not living in panic mode.

However, I had directed the question towards trafn because he believes we are doomed in a few decades. I was hoping he could narrow it down for me.

...but I appreciate your message of optimism. You seem like a "glass half full" kind of guy. I would encourage you to ditch the Global Warming religion and be a "glass completely full" kind of guy.


.

gctimes wrote:The fact is, we have to completely divest from fossil fuels and embrace sustainable technology/ renewable energy.

IBdaMann wrote:

gctimes wrote:The fact is, we have to completely divest from fossil fuels and embrace sustainable technology/ renewable energy.

gctimes, let's suppose we don't divest from fossil fuels. What are you afraid will happen?


.

gctimes wrote:
The vast majority of scientists believe that man-made climate change has recently, and will continue to, cause catastrophic natural disasters.

still learning wrote:

gctimes wrote:
The vast majority of scientists believe that man-made climate change has recently, and will continue to, cause catastrophic natural disasters.

Can you substantiate that?
That the vast majority of scientists....has recently and will continue to cause natural disasters.

gctimes wrote:
The vast majority of scientists believe that man-made climate change has recently, and will continue to, cause catastrophic natural disasters.

gctimes wrote:
it's 97% who prove man-made climate change vs. 3% deniers - the effects of climate change are also common knowledge

Global climate change has already had observable effects on the environment. Glaciers have shrunk, ice on rivers and lakes is breaking up earlier, plant and animal ranges have shifted and trees are flowering sooner.

Effects that scientists had predicted in the past would result from global climate change are now occurring: loss of sea ice, accelerated sea level rise and longer, more intense heat waves.

Taken as a whole, the range of published evidence indicates that the net damage costs of climate change are likely to be significant and to increase over time.
- Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change

Third National Climate Assessment Report 2, released by the U.S. Global Change Research Program:

Northeast. Heat waves, heavy downpours and sea level rise pose growing challenges to many aspects of life in the Northeast. Infrastructure, agriculture, fisheries and ecosystems will be increasingly compromised. Many states and cities are beginning to incorporate climate change into their planning.

Northwest. Changes in the timing of streamflow reduce water supplies for competing demands. Sea level rise, erosion, inundation, risks to infrastructure and increasing ocean acidity pose major threats. Increasing wildfire, insect outbreaks and tree diseases are causing widespread tree die-off.

Southeast. Sea level rise poses widespread and continuing threats to the region's economy and environment. Extreme heat will affect health, energy, agriculture and more. Decreased water availability will have economic and environmental impacts.

Midwest. Extreme heat, heavy downpours and flooding will affect infrastructure, health, agriculture, forestry, transportation, air and water quality, and more. Climate change will also exacerbate a range of risks to the Great Lakes.

Southwest. Increased heat, drought and insect outbreaks, all linked to climate change, have increased wildfires. Declining water supplies, reduced agricultural yields, health impacts in cities due to heat, and flooding and erosion in coastal areas are additional concerns.

gctimes wrote:

Third National Climate Assessment Report 2, released by the U.S. Global Change Research Program:

Northeast. Heat waves, heavy downpours and sea level rise pose growing challenges to many aspects of life in the Northeast. Infrastructure, agriculture, fisheries and ecosystems will be increasingly compromised. Many states and cities are beginning to incorporate climate change into their planning.

Northwest. Changes in the timing of streamflow reduce water supplies for competing demands. Sea level rise, erosion, inundation, risks to infrastructure and increasing ocean acidity pose major threats. Increasing wildfire, insect outbreaks and tree diseases are causing widespread tree die-off.

Southeast. Sea level rise poses widespread and continuing threats to the region's economy and environment. Extreme heat will affect health, energy, agriculture and more. Decreased water availability will have economic and environmental impacts.

Midwest. Extreme heat, heavy downpours and flooding will affect infrastructure, health, agriculture, forestry, transportation, air and water quality, and more. Climate change will also exacerbate a range of risks to the Great Lakes.

Southwest. Increased heat, drought and insect outbreaks, all linked to climate change, have increased wildfires. Declining water supplies, reduced agricultural yields, health impacts in cities due to heat, and flooding and erosion in coastal areas are additional concerns.

IBdaMann wrote:

All of these are things we naturally expect anyway. They have nothing to do with the use of fossil fuels. All of these things have been happening since before the Industrial Revolution and we naturally expect them to continue.

What obvious change will occur solely as a result of the continued use of fossil fuels?


.

The man-made (or anthropogenic) component of the greenhouse effect is caused by man's activities that emit greenhouse gases to the atmosphere.

The most important of these is the burning of fossil fuels...

gctimes wrote: The man-made (or anthropogenic) component of the greenhouse effect is caused by man's activities that emit greenhouse gases to the atmosphere.

gctimes wrote:The most important of these is the burning of fossil fuels.

So what obvious change will occur solely as a result of the continued use of fossil fuels?

gctimes wrote:The first thing that comes to mind, as far as devastation by fossil fuels, are oil spills, mine/ fracking explosions that claim human lives, even wars that are really about oil. The contribution that dirty energy sources make toward climate change are part of a cumulative effect; as there are no specific climate-type effects that have just one source.

Modern healthcare would be impossible without plastics medical products we tend to take for granted: disposable syringes, intravenous blood bags and heart valves, etc. Plastics packaging is particularly suitable for medical applications, thanks to their exceptional barrier properties, light weight, low cost, durability, transparency and compatibility with other materials.

People are living better, longer and have increasingly fulfilling lives. Thanks to the endless versatility of modern plastics, medical breakthroughs considered unthinkable 50 years ago are now regarded as commonplace.

Some applications

Unblocking blood vessels: In the latest heart surgery, thin tubes (catheters) are used to unblock blood vessels, while deposits obstructing them can be broken down with a tiny spiral-shaped implant - a vessel support. Positioned in the treated artery, it is made of a plastic developed specifically for the medical field and charged with active substances.
Prosthesis: Plastics are now being used as orthopaedic devices, where they align, support or correct deformities. they can even improve the function of movable parts of the body or replace a body part, taking over its main function. Synthetic material also plays a vital role for diseased arteries that cannot be helped via vessel support. An affected section of the aorta is removed and the gap is bridged by a flexible plastic prosthesis. Thanks to this, the body's lifeline becomes fully functional again.

Artificial corneas: Eye injuries or CHRONIC INFLAMMATIONS, for example corneal erosion, can impair sight, and if a transplant has little chance of success, a prosthesis is the only hope. Artificial corneas made from special silicone are now available for treatment. Only 0.3 to 0.5 millimetres thick, highly transparent, flexible and made of bio-mechanics similar to a natural cornea, it can restore clear vision again.


HEARING AIDS People with severely impaired hearing can now have a plastics implant that brings sound back in thier hears. This implant consists of numerous components - a microphone, a transmission device connected to a micro-computer worn on the body, a stimulator and an electrode carrier with 16 electrodes for 16 different frequency ranges. As it transforms acoustic impulses into electrical ones, it bypasses the damaged cells and stimulates the auditory nerve directly.

Plastics pill capsules release exactly the right dosage of its active ingredients at the right time. The tartaric acid-based polymer gradually breaks down, slowly releasing the active ingredients over a longer period of time. These tailor-made pharmaceuticals help to avoid having to frequently take large quantities of pills.

gctimes wrote:The first thing that comes to mind, as far as devastation by fossil fuels, are oil spills, mine/ fracking explosions that claim human lives, even wars that are really about oil. The contribution that dirty energy sources make toward climate change are part of a cumulative effect; as there are no specific climate-type effects that have just one source.

A partial list of products made from Petroleum (144 of 6000 items)

One 42-gallon barrel of oil creates 19.4 gallons of gasoline. The rest (over half) is used to make things like:

Solvents, Diesel fuel, Motor Oil, Bearing Grease, Ink, Floor Wax, Ballpoint Pens, Football Cleats, Upholstery, Sweaters, Boats, Insecticides, Bicycle Tires, Sports Car Bodies, Nail Polish, Fishing lures, Dresses, Tires, Golf Bags, Perfumes, Dishwasher parts, Tool Boxes, Shoe Polish, Motorcycle Helmets, Caulking, Petroleum Jelly, Transparent Tape, CD Player, Faucet Washers, Antiseptics, Clothesline, Curtains, Food Preservatives, Basketballs, Soap, Vitamin Capsules, Antihistamines, Purses, Shoes, Dashboards, Cortisone, Deodorant, Footballs, Putty, Dyes, Panty Hose, Refrigerant, Percolators, Life Jackets, Rubbing Alcohol, Linings, Skis, TV Cabinets, Shag Rugs, Electrician's Tape, Tool Racks, Car Battery Cases, Epoxy, Paint, Mops, Slacks, Insect Repellent, Oil Filters, Umbrellas, Yarn, Fertilizers, Hair Coloring, Roofing, Toilet Seats, Fishing Rods, Lipstick, Denture Adhesive, Linoleum, Ice Cube Trays, Synthetic Rubber, Speakers, Plastic Wood, Electric Blankets, Glycerin, Tennis Rackets, Rubber Cement, Fishing Boots, Dice, Nylon Rope, Candles. Trash Bags. House Paint, Water Pipes, Hand Lotion, Roller Skates, Surf Boards, Shampoo, Wheels, Paint Rollers, Shower Curtains, Guitar Strings, Luggage, Aspirin, Safety Glasses, Antifreeze, Football Helmets, Awnings, Eyeglasses, Clothes, Toothbrushes, Ice Chests, Footballs, Combs, CD's & DVD's, Paint Brushes, Detergents, Vaporizers, Balloons, Sun Glasses, Tents, Heart Valves, Crayons, Parachutes, Telephones, Enamel, Pillows, Dishes. Cameras, Anesthetics, Artificial Turf, Artificial limbs, Bandages, Dentures, Model Cars, Folding Doors. Hair Curlers, Cold cream, Movie film, Soft Contact lenses, Drinking Cups, Fan Belts, Car Enamel, Shaving Cream, Ammonia, Refrigerators, Golf Balls, Toothpaste, Gasoline

gctimes wrote:

Third National Climate Assessment Report 2, released by the U.S. Global Change Research Program:

Northwest. Changes in the timing of streamflow reduce water supplies for competing demands. Sea level rise, erosion, inundation, risks to infrastructure and increasing ocean acidity pose major threats. Increasing wildfire, insect outbreaks and tree diseases are causing widespread tree die-off.

Our rivers were in flood stage due to recent rain for several days. I have notice no reduction of stream flow. I live here.

Our sea is the same level it's always been. Our tides are still within the range they've always been. We have three floating bridges here. We would notice that.

Our oceans are not acidic. Our shellfish farms are producing the normal amount of shellfish, including our local delicacy, oysters.

We had a big wildfire season this last summer, but the summer before that was considerably quiet. These come and go. Our trees are healthy. Our local farmer, Weyerhauser, has kept the forests in beautiful condition. They depend on it. There is no widespread tree die-off.

gctimes wrote:
Southwest. Increased heat, drought and insect outbreaks, all linked to climate change, have increased wildfires. Declining water supplies, reduced agricultural yields, health impacts in cities due to heat, and flooding and erosion in coastal areas are additional concerns.

Tai Hai Chen wrote:
Humans ruined the atmosphere by dumping CO2 into the air, .....

Tai Hai Chen wrote:
Humans ruined the atmosphere by dumping CO2 into the air, .....

Tai Hai Chen wrote:
Humans ruined the atmosphere by dumping CO2 into the air, and now you advocate ruining the ground by dumping CO2 under the ground? I think this is beyond insane. The ground can never hold so much CO2. It would surely backfire.

Tai Hai Chen wrote:
Humans ruined the atmosphere by dumping CO2 into the air, and now you advocate ruining the ground by dumping CO2 under the ground? I think this is beyond insane. The ground can never hold so much CO2. It would surely backfire.

still learning wrote: Actual human health effects aren't felt until maybe 5000 ppm of CO2.

IBdaMann wrote:

still learning wrote: Actual human health effects aren't felt until maybe 5000 ppm of CO2.

What health effects would those be? We'd still have 20%+ oxygen. Are you under the impression that CO2 is somehow poisonous to human lung tissue?

The number to watch for is 45 mm Hg of CO2 in the air, or 6% or 60,000 PPM – that is the concentration of CO2 that needs to be reached for the humankind to become extinct. If my math is serving me right, if we divide 60,000 PPM with 400 PPM we get the 'kill factor' for CO2: 150.

In other words, the concentration of CO2 needs to increase 150-fold for the CO2 to become toxic.

IBdaMann wrote:

still learning wrote: Actual human health effects aren't felt until maybe 5000 ppm of CO2.

What health effects would those be?....

Tai Hai Chen wrote:
Earth's carbon cycle.......and two H2O molecules.

still learning wrote:

Tai Hai Chen wrote:
Earth's carbon cycle.......and two H2O molecules.

The water vapor produced by fossil fuel combustion isn't a factor in climate change discussions, in part because water vapor doesn't accumulate in the atmosphere as does CO2. There's this stuff called rain.

What do you mean by "ruined?"

Tai Hai Chen wrote:
Earth's carbon cycle is balanced. Unless humans inject CO2 into the air or remove CO2 from the air, the CO2 level in the air stays constant unless Earth's temperature changes. CO2 follows temperature. If mankind stops injecting CO2 into the air, then the level of CO2 in the air cannot change since plants take in CO2 and emit O2 while animals take in O2 and emit CO2.

Humans are also increasing the amount of water in Earth's water cycle. Burning one CH4 molecule destroys two O2 molecules and creates one CO2 molecule and two H2O molecules.

Tim the plumber wrote:

Tai Hai Chen wrote:
Earth's carbon cycle is balanced. Unless humans inject CO2 into the air or remove CO2 from the air, the CO2 level in the air stays constant unless Earth's temperature changes. CO2 follows temperature. If mankind stops injecting CO2 into the air, then the level of CO2 in the air cannot change since plants take in CO2 and emit O2 while animals take in O2 and emit CO2.

Humans are also increasing the amount of water in Earth's water cycle. Burning one CH4 molecule destroys two O2 molecules and creates one CO2 molecule and two H2O molecules.

1, The amount of CO2 in the air is never balanced. It is being depleted by the action of plankton making thier sheels our of carbon and these sinking to the sea floor. It is increased by volcanoes spewing out the stuff. That we have dug up some fossil fuels is a slight increase in CO2 input. Something like a period of slightly increased vulcanism.

2, There is an estimated 40,000 tonnes of material falling on the earth annually and loses 90,000 tonnes a year to space. So? Where do you think the methane (CH4) came from? It's just another store of carbon. There is a lot of water on the earth. There is no problem here.

Tai Hai Chen wrote:
...Earth's carbon cycle is balanced. Plants and fossilization reduces CO2. Animals and volcano eruptions increases CO2. The two sides are balanced....If humans do not increase or decrease CO2 in the air, then CO2 level will not change unless Earth's temperature changes...

Tai Hai Chen wrote:

Tim the plumber wrote:

Tai Hai Chen wrote:
Earth's carbon cycle is balanced. Unless humans inject CO2 into the air or remove CO2 from the air, the CO2 level in the air stays constant unless Earth's temperature changes. CO2 follows temperature. If mankind stops injecting CO2 into the air, then the level of CO2 in the air cannot change since plants take in CO2 and emit O2 while animals take in O2 and emit CO2.

Humans are also increasing the amount of water in Earth's water cycle. Burning one CH4 molecule destroys two O2 molecules and creates one CO2 molecule and two H2O molecules.

1, The amount of CO2 in the air is never balanced. It is being depleted by the action of plankton making thier sheels our of carbon and these sinking to the sea floor. It is increased by volcanoes spewing out the stuff. That we have dug up some fossil fuels is a slight increase in CO2 input. Something like a period of slightly increased vulcanism.

2, There is an estimated 40,000 tonnes of material falling on the earth annually and loses 90,000 tonnes a year to space. So? Where do you think the methane (CH4) came from? It's just another store of carbon. There is a lot of water on the earth. There is no problem here.

Earth's carbon cycle is balanced. Plants and fossilization reduces CO2. Animals and volcano eruptions increases CO2. The two sides are balanced. CO2 is low on Earth, that's why Earth can support life whereas other planets cannot. If humans do not increase or decrease CO2 in the air, then CO2 level will not change unless Earth's temperature changes.

There's a lot of water on Earth so it's not a problem? Do you have any idea how much water humans add to Earth every year? More than 50 billion tons. All the white smoke coming out of chimney stacks and pipes are water vapor. 50 billion tons of water is enough to make a foot of snow blanketing the entire Earth's surface. The effect of that on climate cannot be underestimated.

jdm wrote:

Tai Hai Chen wrote:
...Earth's carbon cycle is balanced. Plants and fossilization reduces CO2. Animals and volcano eruptions increases CO2. The two sides are balanced....If humans do not increase or decrease CO2 in the air, then CO2 level will not change unless Earth's temperature changes...

As you can see from this graph, earth's carbon cycle has never been "balanced" in the sense you describe. There have been huge swings in CO2 levels over time:

http://www.biocab.org/Geological_Timescale_op_712x534.jpg