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Sink holes


Sink holes14-11-2016 19:56
Petester
☆☆☆☆☆
(5)
Could those sink holes that are occurring world wide be from climate change?

What I'd really like to know if some of you learned people here could help with is what are the chances of a sink hole or possibly many sink holes tapping into a natural underground water canal that is connected to a large water source like a lake or even a ocean? Thanks for your time
14-11-2016 20:36
climate scientist
★★☆☆☆
(257)
Hi Petester

There is a lot of evidence in the scientific literature that links the appearance of sink holes to human activity, but this is mostly caused by water drainage, not climate change.

There is a link of climate change to rainfall, so it is possible that changes in rainfall patterns will cause changes in sink hole appearances, although I don't think there is much data on this. And even if the link does exist, I would expect the effect to be very small, compared to the effect from human induced irrigation and drainage of the land.

I'm sure that it is very possible for a sink hole to connect to natural fresh and salt water reserves, however, I have no idea what the probability of that would be. It will be highly dependent on location, proximity to water sources/coast, soil and rock type, weather patterns, etc.

Please let me know if you have further questions about this.
14-11-2016 20:51
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5178)
Petester wrote: Could those sink holes that are occurring world wide be from climate change?

What is the "climate" in the first place?

Petester, do sink holes cause this "climate" thing to change or do changes in the "climate" thing cause sink holes?


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
14-11-2016 20:54
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5178)
climate scientist wrote:Please let me know if you have further questions about this.

You never clarified what "climate" is in the first place.

Also, does "greenhouse effect" cause an increase in temperature?


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
17-11-2016 04:11
Petester
☆☆☆☆☆
(5)
Actually because this is a climate focused site I used ckimate for lack of a better word ,but thanks to the scientist guy for your input,to tell you the truth im trying to make a link to global flooding and waiting for the poles and glaciers to melt would take too long then the sink hole theory occurred to me.

I admit that it is very far fetched but think about it,if the world were to flood it would take more than melting of the existing ice wouldn't it?

So how about that along with existing dry ground dropping below sea level? Which could happen theoretically if more sink holes open up and possibly tap into a large water source correct?
31-03-2018 23:10
Wake
★★★★★
(4031)
IBdaMann wrote:
Petester wrote: Could those sink holes that are occurring world wide be from climate change?

What is the "climate" in the first place?

Petester, do sink holes cause this "climate" thing to change or do changes in the "climate" thing cause sink holes?


.


The definition of climate is an average of the temperature, windspeed, humidity and rainfall in an area over a defined period. This period is generally at least 30 years.

Climate change is a CHANGE in that pattern over at least 30 years or so.

Don't fall for the idiots that try to make this definition seem difficult or meaningless.
01-04-2018 22:12
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10151)
Wake wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
Petester wrote: Could those sink holes that are occurring world wide be from climate change?

What is the "climate" in the first place?

Petester, do sink holes cause this "climate" thing to change or do changes in the "climate" thing cause sink holes?


.


The definition of climate is an average of the temperature, windspeed, humidity and rainfall in an area over a defined period. This period is generally at least 30 years.

Climate change is a CHANGE in that pattern over at least 30 years or so.

Don't fall for the idiots that try to make this definition seem difficult or meaningless.


Climate is 'weather over a long time'. The time is unspecified.


The Parrot Killer
04-04-2018 11:26
Tim the plumber
★★★★☆
(1295)
Petester wrote:
Could those sink holes that are occurring world wide be from climate change?

What I'd really like to know if some of you learned people here could help with is what are the chances of a sink hole or possibly many sink holes tapping into a natural underground water canal that is connected to a large water source like a lake or even a ocean? Thanks for your time


Sink holes are where the rain water, which is acidic, attacks limestone. This eventually rots away the limestone which is the shells of sea creatures from long ago.

Sink holes have been happening for ever. They are not new.

They can only happen in areas with limestone.

They have no relavence to climate change.
25-04-2019 03:42
dehammer
★★★☆☆
(431)
Petester wrote:
Could those sink holes that are occurring world wide be from climate change?
No, what causes them is the removal of water from aquafers for drinking water or irrigating farms. That's why you see the sink holes most often in places like farms and such.
25-04-2019 04:11
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1504)
dehammer wrote:
Petester wrote:
Could those sink holes that are occurring world wide be from climate change?
No, what causes them is the removal of water from aquafers for drinking water or irrigating farms. That's why you see the sink holes most often in places like farms and such.


We get sink holes often in Florida, some big enough to swallow a car, even house (or four...). We get them in places that if there had been a farm, it was many decades ago. It's just another form of erosion, normal and natural. Human activity might speed it up a little, in some cases. Really surprised someone hasn't built something to detect potential sink holes. Seems like there would be money to be made, to scan properties, or areas prone to sink holes, and give an estimate on how likely a hole will open up. People could save a ton of money fixing the problem before hand, or avoid build over one in the first place. Would think insurance companies would be very interested in such technology, although they probably have a paper fix, that lets them off the hook for paying claims.
25-04-2019 05:03
dehammer
★★★☆☆
(431)
Florida has drawn a lot of water out of aquafers.
25-04-2019 18:05
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10151)
dehammer wrote:
Petester wrote:
Could those sink holes that are occurring world wide be from climate change?
No, what causes them is the removal of water from aquafers for drinking water or irrigating farms. That's why you see the sink holes most often in places like farms and such.


No. Sinkholes form where water has washed out the land underneath. That happens a lot in limestone. That is why Florida gets so many of them. Many of the lakes in Florida are the result of sinkholes.


The Parrot Killer
25-04-2019 18:08
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10151)
dehammer wrote:
Florida has drawn a lot of water out of aquafers.


The aquifer that Florida gets much of its drinking water from is below any sinkhole. That aquifer is still full of water too. It's huge. It extends all the way up into the Carolinas. There is another, even larger one, below that one that nobody has bothered to tap yet.

The aquifer is there because of impervious rock. Even if you empty the aquifer completely, you will not get a sinkhole.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 25-04-2019 18:09
25-04-2019 21:34
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1504)
Into the Night wrote:
dehammer wrote:
Petester wrote:
Could those sink holes that are occurring world wide be from climate change?
No, what causes them is the removal of water from aquafers for drinking water or irrigating farms. That's why you see the sink holes most often in places like farms and such.


No. Sinkholes form where water has washed out the land underneath. That happens a lot in limestone. That is why Florida gets so many of them. Many of the lakes in Florida are the result of sinkholes.


I wasn't born in Florida, so a little light on the history and geography. I though most of the lakes were man-made, since the land was mostly swamps. Walt Disney bought it up cheap, dug a lot of big holes to raise the theme park land above the ground water level. Of course, there has been a lot of construction, lot of roads, and the need for many truck loads of fill dirt (mostly sand, but they call it dirt around here). Obviously, hauling dirt from the yankee state would be very expensive. I'm sure there are natural lakes, sink hole probably, but I've never heard of any lake-size ones opening up since I've been here. A big one, usually is about house sized. One destroyed 4 houses, but only one house mostly fell in, the others were damaged beyond repair.

If sink holes fell into the aquifer, we'd have polluted fresh water, although I've seen so really nasty looking well water a few times, but likely rusted iron pipes, or badly drilled well. We have shallow, and deep wells, depends on how much you want to spend, and quality of water you want.
25-04-2019 22:42
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10151)
HarveyH55 wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
dehammer wrote:
Petester wrote:
Could those sink holes that are occurring world wide be from climate change?
No, what causes them is the removal of water from aquafers for drinking water or irrigating farms. That's why you see the sink holes most often in places like farms and such.


No. Sinkholes form where water has washed out the land underneath. That happens a lot in limestone. That is why Florida gets so many of them. Many of the lakes in Florida are the result of sinkholes.


I wasn't born in Florida, so a little light on the history and geography. I though most of the lakes were man-made, since the land was mostly swamps. Walt Disney bought it up cheap, dug a lot of big holes to raise the theme park land above the ground water level. Of course, there has been a lot of construction, lot of roads, and the need for many truck loads of fill dirt (mostly sand, but they call it dirt around here). Obviously, hauling dirt from the yankee state would be very expensive. I'm sure there are natural lakes, sink hole probably, but I've never heard of any lake-size ones opening up since I've been here. A big one, usually is about house sized. One destroyed 4 houses, but only one house mostly fell in, the others were damaged beyond repair.

If sink holes fell into the aquifer, we'd have polluted fresh water, although I've seen so really nasty looking well water a few times, but likely rusted iron pipes, or badly drilled well. We have shallow, and deep wells, depends on how much you want to spend, and quality of water you want.


Since you now live in Florida, you probably have heard of the various invasive species there such as the pythons, the monkeys, the wild hogs, etc.

Turns out Florida itself is an 'invasive species'. This bit of land is not part of the North American plate at all, but it actually comes from Africa. Somehow, this bit of land migrated to North America and surfaced to just above sea level (leaving Florida underwater only part of the time now).

Florida is, as you know, largely limestone. Because of the heavy rains the locale experiences, this limestone dissolves, but unevenly. It is not because the rain is acidic, it is because there is simply a lot of it.

Where the limestone dissolves, a sinkhole develops. Many lakes you see in Florida are the results of these sinkholes (hey, the water has to go somewhere, right?). Currently, there is rash of them developing in the Kissimmee area in lower central Florida.

Sinkholes are not very deep. The deepest one in Florida is also the largest sinkhole in the United States, and is only 75 feet deep.

It only takes a sink of a dozen feet or so to utterly destroy a building or swallow a car though. This is actually a pretty common depth for Florida sinkholes.

There are man made lakes and ponds in Florida also. Many of these are decorative, such as found in The Villages. Others are built to be water skiing courses. Yeah, it's a constant battle keeping the alligators out of 'em. They really do get everywhere.

The aquifer commonly used for freshwater supply in Florida is about 1000ft down, much lower than any sinkhole.

There are many springs in Florida. These are not fed from the aquifer, but from underground streams that run all through Florida. They contain a fair amount of sulfide gas dissolved in that water, so where they appear is often crystal clear water.

The Florida geology is actually pretty fascinating. Local geologists can fill you in with all kinds of interesting tidbits about that area.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 25-04-2019 22:46
26-04-2019 01:07
Wake
★★★★★
(4031)
dehammer wrote:
Petester wrote:
Could those sink holes that are occurring world wide be from climate change?
No, what causes them is the removal of water from aquafers for drinking water or irrigating farms. That's why you see the sink holes most often in places like farms and such.


There are many reasons for sinkholes. Tim is correct that acidic rain water can attack many types of stone and leach them away over the decades. The sinkholes in Florida are because man is installing drainage systems in urban areas and this starves aquafers for water. In California there is a lot of water or sewage piping that breaks from lack of timely replacement and washes large amounts of soil away. The coastal areas of California can have "top soil" over 2 meters deep.
26-04-2019 02:51
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10151)
Wake wrote:
dehammer wrote:
Petester wrote:
Could those sink holes that are occurring world wide be from climate change?
No, what causes them is the removal of water from aquafers for drinking water or irrigating farms. That's why you see the sink holes most often in places like farms and such.


There are many reasons for sinkholes. Tim is correct that acidic rain water can attack many types of stone and leach them away over the decades. The sinkholes in Florida are because man is installing drainage systems in urban areas and this starves aquafers for water. In California there is a lot of water or sewage piping that breaks from lack of timely replacement and washes large amounts of soil away. The coastal areas of California can have "top soil" over 2 meters deep.


The aquifer in Florida is 1000 ft down, Wake. It is below impervious rock. The sinkholes are no deeper than 75 feet deep.

Topsoil erosion does not cause sinkholes, Wake.

The rain does not have to be acidic to dissolve limestone, Wake. You can dissolve limestone in water with a pH of 7. You can even dissolve it in water that is alkaline.


The Parrot Killer
26-04-2019 03:09
dehammer
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(431)
I am sure there are many different reasons for sinkholes.
26-04-2019 03:19
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10151)
dehammer wrote:
I am sure there are many different reasons for sinkholes.


Just one. Erosion of material under the topsoil.


The Parrot Killer
26-04-2019 03:45
dehammer
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(431)
"California's Central Valley subsides when groundwater is pumped faster than underground aquifers can be recharged. The Central Valley has been sinking at differing rates since the 1920s and is estimated to have sunk up to 28 feet. During drought years, the valley is prone to accelerated subsidence."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Valley_land_subsidence
26-04-2019 04:34
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10151)
dehammer wrote:
"California's Central Valley subsides when groundwater is pumped faster than underground aquifers can be recharged. The Central Valley has been sinking at differing rates since the 1920s and is estimated to have sunk up to 28 feet. During drought years, the valley is prone to accelerated subsidence."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Valley_land_subsidence


Wikipedia discarded on site. You cannot use it as a reference with me.

You really don't know what a sinkhole is, do you?


The Parrot Killer
26-04-2019 18:32
Wake
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(4031)
dehammer wrote:
"California's Central Valley subsides when groundwater is pumped faster than underground aquifers can be recharged. The Central Valley has been sinking at differing rates since the 1920s and is estimated to have sunk up to 28 feet. During drought years, the valley is prone to accelerated subsidence."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Valley_land_subsidence


Subsidence and sinkholes are different things. What's more, the subsidence disappears with rain as the aquafers recharge.
26-04-2019 19:39
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(10151)
Wake wrote:
dehammer wrote:
"California's Central Valley subsides when groundwater is pumped faster than underground aquifers can be recharged. The Central Valley has been sinking at differing rates since the 1920s and is estimated to have sunk up to 28 feet. During drought years, the valley is prone to accelerated subsidence."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Valley_land_subsidence


Subsidence and sinkholes are different things. What's more, the subsidence disappears with rain as the aquafers recharge.


Very true.


The Parrot Killer




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