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Septic tanks and water pollution



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23-08-2020 04:05
HarveyH55
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(2396)
James___ wrote:
Xadoman wrote:
And you're ignoring that it creates glaciers. I posted that over many decades that freezing water can break a bridge. You ignored that yet say it will break a mountain. I think the bridge will break first but will have to visit Washington State to see if Mount Rainier is still there.
It's distinguishable by it's 3 different peaks. Maybe one of them broke?


I do not ignore it creates glaciers. I also do not ignore that it will break a bridge. Freezing water causes a lot of trouble. I know it because I live in a climate where winters are quite cold. Last winter was exeptional - first time in my lifetime there was no ice on the lake. Lets see what this winter brings to us.



I was merely pointing out that if it's sealed which concrete usually is then water won't get into or through the cement. Kind of why I suggested composting it for fertilizer by using a greenhouse.
In being realistic about things, biosolids will need to be used in the future to preserve the topsoil on our farms. Otherwise we'll need to farm everything using hydroponics or import from countries that haven't been farmed as much.


We use chemical fertilizer mostly because the are quick, cheap, and plentiful. They take a lot of guesswork out of whether a crop will be productive. Farmers know which crops require which chemical nutrients for the expected yield. it's accurate, reliable, and doesn't get any easier, little guesswork involved. With bio-solids, from sewage, or other sources, the content, consistency, and what eventually becomes available to the plants isn't immediately know, lot of lab tests, on each batch.

Farms could also be outdoors hydroponics as well, if the soil is really that poor, just irrigate with a nutritive solution. Which, is essential what's done in some areas anyway, since the chemical fertilizers are used on a more regular basis, in lower concentrations. Some environmentalists complain about dumping out a lot of fertilizer all at once, is running off, an contaminating everything.

Use to be, that we only harvested the edible or usable portions of plants, and plowed what was left, back into the soil, to rot, and feed the next planting. We make use of the whole plant now, very little to plow under.

I think California has been using raw sewage for fertilizer. They seem to have a lot of recalls every year. Either that, or the undocumented farm workers frequently use the fields for an outhouse.

One strange covid observation, the annual Red Tide, didn't happen, or was too mild to report on. Red Tide, is the product of algae blooms, similar to the Outhouse Lake problem, but the ocean, off out coast. The only major change, is no cruise ships. The cruise ships tend to purge some, if not all the content of their waste water/sewage, before heading into port. The get charged a fee, by volume, to dispose of the contents legally and responsibly. Of course, it's just one year, and some years are worst than others. I'd be guessing, but our coral reefs are probably doing spectacularly this year as well. Cruise ships, and not climate change...
23-08-2020 22:51
Xadoman
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(280)
Wasn't the rotten wood structure, what prompted this elaborate concrete work, in the first place? Normal outhouses are built on skids, so you can drag it over a fresh dug hole occasionally, as needed.


Those kind of pits will get filled with surface water. All this liquidy shit is poisoning the drinking water. As said I have a simple dug well that does not go very deep. All the septic guys have borewells that go 100 or more meters deep. I wonder why. My composting toilet is going to be dry closet and will have a minimal effect on the surface water because the seepage from the pit is going to be minuscule. BTW if anyone does not know yet then dry closets are by code the "greenest". Septic systems are only allowed in sparcely populated areas and the soil conditions must be suitable. Only then you can install the septic system .
Edited on 23-08-2020 23:32
23-08-2020 23:10
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(280)
He wants to do it the hard and expensive way. Who am I to stop him?


Concrete is very cheap and stainless steel is cost effective. Only 3 times more than carbon iron. The whole bunch of rebar( minimum amount they bothered to deliver) cost approximately 800 dollars. Concrete was approximately 1000 dollars. The whole project has cost me around 3500 dollars so far. I can not see it going over 6000 dollars on the whole. I think it is quite cheap considering the properties of the structure.
23-08-2020 23:48
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(280)
I don't think I would have bothered with rebar at all, not really expecting a heavy load, deposited...


Good idea . Rebar after all is the one to blame that currently destroys many concrete structures. Without rebar there are no worries about rust problems. The structure must be quite massive though because without rebar the concrete is not as strong and may not endure the forces it has to. For a 7 foot high basement wall the code recommends at least one foot thick concrete( without rebar) but I would go ( just to be safe) for 1,5 -2 foot thick wall.
Your slab probably has no or very minimal rebar in it. Slab on grade does not even need a rebar because the strength of the slab depends on the compacted fill that is under the slab. Rebar could only minimize cracking for a while but eventually the rebar is going to rust and destroy the slab. It is better to pour a slab without the rebar because of it.
24-08-2020 00:02
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2396)
Xadoman wrote:
He wants to do it the hard and expensive way. Who am I to stop him?


Concrete is very cheap and stainless steel is cost effective. Only 3 times more than carbon iron. The whole bunch of rebar( minimum amount they bothered to deliver) cost approximately 800 dollars. Concrete was approximately 1000 dollars. The whole project has cost me around 3500 dollars so far. I can not see it going over 6000 dollars on the whole. I think it is quite cheap considering the properties of the structure.


How much to drill a deeper well?

Have you drawn up plans for the wooden structure yet? Most of the outhouses I remember, were constructed mostly of reclaimed wood, pretty basic construction, a door, 4 walls for privacy, and and a roof that didn't leak too much. Do you figure on running electricity out there, for lighting, exhaust fan, heating/cooling. Maybe a smart TV, least a place to charge you phone. How about sink, to wash your hands, after...
24-08-2020 00:03
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(280)
In my opinion the biggest problem with the topsoil is that it is getting thinner year by year. This kind of farming is not sustainable because at one point there is no sufficient thickness for a plant to grow even if it swims in fertilizers. Lakes and shores are full of eroded topsoil and we could pump it out and carry back to fields to restore the soil thickness.
24-08-2020 00:39
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(280)
and the lake you want to 'save' will just return to the swamp from whence it came.


In basic school our history teacher was a complete nuisance. All the kids were afraid of her and basically the whole day was ruined when we had her class that day. She never asked what we thought about this or that. She asked us in front of the class and we had to tell her word by word the story that was written in the book. I just can not imagine the look on her face if I could go back in time to her class and have a guts to tell her the story of my lake. That at some point in history a bunch of guys decides for some reason to turn a swamp to a lake and those guys used steam powered technology. I remember that back in time she mentioned quite a lot of times that she was doubting my reasoning. I wonder what she would have tought about that story.
Edited on 24-08-2020 00:47
24-08-2020 08:05
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13273)
Xadoman wrote:
Wasn't the rotten wood structure, what prompted this elaborate concrete work, in the first place? Normal outhouses are built on skids, so you can drag it over a fresh dug hole occasionally, as needed.


Those kind of pits will get filled with surface water. All this liquidy shit is poisoning the drinking water. As said I have a simple dug well that does not go very deep. All the septic guys have borewells that go 100 or more meters deep. I wonder why.
Usually better water that deep.
Xadoman wrote:
My composting toilet is going to be dry closet and will have a minimal effect on the surface water because the seepage from the pit is going to be minuscule.
Not the problem. It's everyone else's sewage, such as the guy that just craps in the wood, and algae and stuff from the lake.
Xadoman wrote:
BTW if anyone does not know yet then dry closets are by code the "greenest".
Nope.
Xadoman wrote:
Septic systems are only allowed in sparcely populated areas and the soil conditions must be suitable. Only then you can install the septic system.

Wrong. Many suburban homes have septic systems, and they perform quite well.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
24-08-2020 08:08
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13273)
Xadoman wrote:
He wants to do it the hard and expensive way. Who am I to stop him?


Concrete is very cheap and stainless steel is cost effective.

Not really.
Xadoman wrote:
Only 3 times more than carbon iron.

Yeah. it's expensive.
Xadoman wrote:
The whole bunch of rebar( minimum amount they bothered to deliver) cost approximately 800 dollars. Concrete was approximately 1000 dollars. The whole project has cost me around 3500 dollars so far. I can not see it going over 6000 dollars on the whole. I think it is quite cheap considering the properties of the structure.

Your hole. If you want to throw $6000 in it, that's your problem.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
24-08-2020 08:13
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13273)
Xadoman wrote:
I don't think I would have bothered with rebar at all, not really expecting a heavy load, deposited...


Good idea . Rebar after all is the one to blame that currently destroys many concrete structures.
Wrong. Already explained why.
Xadoman wrote:
Without rebar there are no worries about rust problems.
Rebar doesn't have rust problems. Already explained why.
Xadoman wrote:
The structure must be quite massive though because without rebar the concrete is not as strong and may not endure the forces it has to. For a 7 foot high basement wall the code recommends at least one foot thick concrete( without rebar) but I would go ( just to be safe) for 1,5 -2 foot thick wall.
Nope. Won't pass code.
Xadoman wrote:
Your slab probably has no or very minimal rebar in it.

Wrong. Concrete slabs must have rebar in them or they will crack and be unable to support the house sitting on it. You will not pass inspection without rebar.
Xadoman wrote:
Slab on grade does not even need a rebar because the strength of the slab depends on the compacted fill that is under the slab.
Yes it does. The slab is also in tension.
Xadoman wrote:
Rebar could only minimize cracking for a while but eventually the rebar is going to rust and destroy the slab.

Wrong. I've already explained why.
Xadoman wrote:
It is better to pour a slab without the rebar because of it.

Wrong. You will not pass code inspection. They won't let you pour it. If you pour it anyway, you will have to pay to remove it and have it done properly (expensive!!!!!).


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
24-08-2020 08:16
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13273)
HarveyH55 wrote:
Xadoman wrote:
He wants to do it the hard and expensive way. Who am I to stop him?


Concrete is very cheap and stainless steel is cost effective. Only 3 times more than carbon iron. The whole bunch of rebar( minimum amount they bothered to deliver) cost approximately 800 dollars. Concrete was approximately 1000 dollars. The whole project has cost me around 3500 dollars so far. I can not see it going over 6000 dollars on the whole. I think it is quite cheap considering the properties of the structure.


How much to drill a deeper well?

Have you drawn up plans for the wooden structure yet? Most of the outhouses I remember, were constructed mostly of reclaimed wood, pretty basic construction, a door, 4 walls for privacy, and and a roof that didn't leak too much. Do you figure on running electricity out there, for lighting, exhaust fan, heating/cooling. Maybe a smart TV, least a place to charge you phone. How about sink, to wash your hands, after...


A 100 ft well typically costs between $1500 to $3000, complete with pump, water testing, casing, feed out, pressure tank, pressure sense relay switching, and cap.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
24-08-2020 08:18
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13273)
Xadoman wrote:
In my opinion the biggest problem with the topsoil is that it is getting thinner year by year. This kind of farming is not sustainable because at one point there is no sufficient thickness for a plant to grow even if it swims in fertilizers. Lakes and shores are full of eroded topsoil and we could pump it out and carry back to fields to restore the soil thickness.


Soil is created naturally. As long as it is not over exploited, more soil is simply created again. That's what bugs and worms do.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
24-08-2020 08:20
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13273)
Xadoman wrote:
and the lake you want to 'save' will just return to the swamp from whence it came.


In basic school our history teacher was a complete nuisance. All the kids were afraid of her and basically the whole day was ruined when we had her class that day. She never asked what we thought about this or that. She asked us in front of the class and we had to tell her word by word the story that was written in the book. I just can not imagine the look on her face if I could go back in time to her class and have a guts to tell her the story of my lake. That at some point in history a bunch of guys decides for some reason to turn a swamp to a lake and those guys used steam powered technology. I remember that back in time she mentioned quite a lot of times that she was doubting my reasoning. I wonder what she would have tought about that story.


History teachers don't usually discuss people that turn swamps into lakes. It is also quite a common thing to happen, usually when the property is subdivided.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
24-08-2020 11:12
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(280)


ITN, take a look at the bottom of the paper and notice the requirements for unreinforced basement walls. Those are of course minimum requirements and I personally would go thicker. I think at least 20 inches( or 50 cm) wall thickness is a way to go with unreinforced concrete.
24-08-2020 11:49
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(280)
Also ITN you could take a look at that paper:

https://www.huduser.gov/portal/publications/pdf/residential.pdf

That is a Residential Structure Design Guide, 2-nd edition.

4.4.2.1 Plain Concrete Footing Design

In this section, the design of plain concrete footings is presented...


4.5.1.1 Plain Concrete Wall Design

ACI 318 defines "plain concrete" as structural concrete with no
reinforcement
or with less reinforcement than the minimum amount specified for
reinforced concrete, and ACI 318*22.0 permits its use in wall design.


Also, just for the information: Building Code Requirements for
Structural Concrete (ACI 318-14)


In conclusion - unreinforced concrete structures are allowed by the code. Simple as that.
24-08-2020 18:26
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2396)
Into the Night wrote:
Xadoman wrote:
In my opinion the biggest problem with the topsoil is that it is getting thinner year by year. This kind of farming is not sustainable because at one point there is no sufficient thickness for a plant to grow even if it swims in fertilizers. Lakes and shores are full of eroded topsoil and we could pump it out and carry back to fields to restore the soil thickness.


Soil is created naturally. As long as it is not over exploited, more soil is simply created again. That's what bugs and worms do.


Farms do add to the topsoil every season, when they plow under organic matter left from the harvest. They will also truck in other organic materials, like manure, or anything also available cheap. It will rot in the ground worms and bacteria break it down, for the next seasons planting. The problem though, is not enough of the organic material can be added, to keep up with crops. Dirt is dirt, it's there so the roots have something to hold on to, and the plants don't fall over. Different kinds of dirt, has different water retaining properties. Plant's aren't smart, and have just a few basic requirements. They can't tell the difference between naturally occurring, or artificially supplied. Farming is more science now, than just shoving seeds in the ground, and hoping it rains. There are very few failed crops any more, and those are from natural forces we have no control over. We don't control hurricanes or tornadoes...
24-08-2020 19:47
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13273)
Xadoman wrote:


ITN, take a look at the bottom of the paper and notice the requirements for unreinforced basement walls. Those are of course minimum requirements and I personally would go thicker. I think at least 20 inches( or 50 cm) wall thickness is a way to go with unreinforced concrete.


It's your money and your risk. This page is from a book. What book is it from?


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
24-08-2020 19:56
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13273)
Xadoman wrote:
Also ITN you could take a look at that paper:

https://www.huduser.gov/portal/publications/pdf/residential.pdf

That is a Residential Structure Design Guide, 2-nd edition.

4.4.2.1 Plain Concrete Footing Design

In this section, the design of plain concrete footings is presented...


4.5.1.1 Plain Concrete Wall Design

ACI 318 defines "plain concrete" as structural concrete with no
reinforcement
or with less reinforcement than the minimum amount specified for
reinforced concrete, and ACI 318*22.0 permits its use in wall design.


Also, just for the information: Building Code Requirements for
Structural Concrete (ACI 318-14)


In conclusion - unreinforced concrete structures are allowed by the code. Simple as that.

Only in VERY limited circumstances. It's also expensive. I suggest you read the actual code instead of just quoting from this book.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
24-08-2020 19:58
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13273)
HarveyH55 wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Xadoman wrote:
In my opinion the biggest problem with the topsoil is that it is getting thinner year by year. This kind of farming is not sustainable because at one point there is no sufficient thickness for a plant to grow even if it swims in fertilizers. Lakes and shores are full of eroded topsoil and we could pump it out and carry back to fields to restore the soil thickness.


Soil is created naturally. As long as it is not over exploited, more soil is simply created again. That's what bugs and worms do.


Farms do add to the topsoil every season, when they plow under organic matter left from the harvest. They will also truck in other organic materials, like manure, or anything also available cheap. It will rot in the ground worms and bacteria break it down, for the next seasons planting. The problem though, is not enough of the organic material can be added, to keep up with crops. Dirt is dirt, it's there so the roots have something to hold on to, and the plants don't fall over. Different kinds of dirt, has different water retaining properties. Plant's aren't smart, and have just a few basic requirements. They can't tell the difference between naturally occurring, or artificially supplied. Farming is more science now, than just shoving seeds in the ground, and hoping it rains. There are very few failed crops any more, and those are from natural forces we have no control over. We don't control hurricanes or tornadoes...

Some do. Others just plow their chaff back into the ground, spread manure, and can call it good.

Most around here are raising feed corn or sweet corn.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
24-08-2020 21:02
James___
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(3161)
Xadoman wrote:


ITN, take a look at the bottom of the paper and notice the requirements for unreinforced basement walls. Those are of course minimum requirements and I personally would go thicker. I think at least 20 inches( or 50 cm) wall thickness is a way to go with unreinforced concrete.



All that's showing is with a load at the top of 2.08 psi and with no load placed on top of the wall. Have you priced #5 rebar (about $13 for a 20 ft length) vs the cost of whatever mix you'll be using?
1 yard of concrete is about $90 with a delivery fee of about $60 per load. Using rebar might be cheaper than paying for more mix. It'd also mean less digging. You'd be saving 5" of wall thickness if not more. Then 9,331 in^2 (about 65 ft^2) = 1 yard of mix.
And with 4 sides, rebar might save you 1 yard of mix on each side or about
$360 - $100 = $260. Am figuring 4 20 ft bars per wall. 3 upright and the 4th used to tie the other 3 together crosswise. I've poured many foundations, walls, etc.


p.s., there's a tool that vibrates the cement after it's been poured. It gets the air out otherwise air left in the pour can weaken the wall/barrier/floor.
Edited on 24-08-2020 21:04
24-08-2020 21:16
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(280)
I suggest you read the actual code instead of just quoting from this book.


ACI 318 defines "plain concrete" as structural concrete with no
reinforcement or with less reinforcement than the minimum amount specified for
reinforced concrete, and ACI 318*22.0 permits its use in wall design.

ACI is the code.
Edited on 24-08-2020 21:17
24-08-2020 21:31
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(280)
And with 4 sides, rebar might save you 1 yard of mix on each side or about
$360 - $100 = $260


Do not you agree it is a peanut in the bigger picture? When the rebar starts to rust then it quickly deteriorates the whole wall. Without rebar such failure is not possible. The wall could stand hundreds and hundreds of years in good climate. If you want rebar then stainless steel is the way to go. It is cost effective in the long run.
24-08-2020 22:14
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13273)
Xadoman wrote:
I suggest you read the actual code instead of just quoting from this book.


ACI 318 defines "plain concrete" as structural concrete with no
reinforcement or with less reinforcement than the minimum amount specified for
reinforced concrete, and ACI 318*22.0 permits its use in wall design.

ACI is the code.


Go read it. You are ignoring the limitations.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
24-08-2020 22:15
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13273)
Xadoman wrote:
And with 4 sides, rebar might save you 1 yard of mix on each side or about
$360 - $100 = $260


Do not you agree it is a peanut in the bigger picture? When the rebar starts to rust then it quickly deteriorates the whole wall. Without rebar such failure is not possible. The wall could stand hundreds and hundreds of years in good climate. If you want rebar then stainless steel is the way to go. It is cost effective in the long run.

Lie. Rebar does not destroy the wall.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
24-08-2020 23:23
HarveyH55
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(2396)
Concrete isn't perfect, and sometimes can take years to fully cure. Rebar isn't the main strength of the concrete, it just mitigates some of the structural weaknesses. Even if the rebar were to dissolve and melt, like the organs of a covid-19 patient, the concrete would still be structurally sound. You just couldn't expect to slam a car into it at high speed.

Up in the northern states, they throw a lot of salt on the road, to help with the ice problem in the winter months. Does a real number on the underside of cars. How come all the driveways aren't cracked and caving in. Seems like the rebar would have completely dissolved in just a few years, and rolling a couple thousand pounds of car across the weakened, and crumbling slab would have finish the demolition in short order.

The truth is that rust only forms on the surface, and doesn't penetrate very deep. That oxide layer protects the metal underneath from further oxidation. That surface layer needs to be removed, exposing bare metal, for more rust to form. Encased in concrete, that surface layer of rust, never gets removed, no further oxidation is possible.
25-08-2020 01:24
James___
★★★★★
(3161)
Xadoman wrote:
And with 4 sides, rebar might save you 1 yard of mix on each side or about
$360 - $100 = $260


Do not you agree it is a peanut in the bigger picture? When the rebar starts to rust then it quickly deteriorates the whole wall. Without rebar such failure is not possible. The wall could stand hundreds and hundreds of years in good climate. If you want rebar then stainless steel is the way to go. It is cost effective in the long run.



It seems that if the rebar is coated, it'll last long enough. For wht you're using it for, if you have grand kids and great grand kids, it'll probably still be there. There's other information in the link about how concrete can be mixed to help protect the passive covering on the rebar.
Another question is if it's going to be pumped out or filled in. For all intents and purposes, a 5 to 7 1/2 inch thick wall might be plenty. Then as I mentioned you could compost it in a greenhouse with plastic underneath it. Where you're building it, it might take more than 6 months for any waste to seep through the ground to any aquifer or lake. If so, it'll be safe by then. But with the biosolids, let it sit over the winter and then you have fertilizer for a garden.

Concrete and the Passive Layer

Although steel's natural tendency is to undergo corrosion reactions, the alkaline environment of concrete (pH of 12 to 13) provides steel with corrosion protection. At the high pH, a thin oxide layer forms on the steel and prevents metal atoms from dissolving. This passive film does not actually stop corrosion; it reduces the corrosion rate to an insignificant level. For steel in concrete, the passive corrosion rate is typically 0.1 µm per year. Without the passive film, the steel would corrode at rates at least 1,000 times higher (ACI222 2001).

https://www.cement.org/learn/concrete-technology/durability/corrosion-of-embedded-materials
25-08-2020 02:40
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13273)
HarveyH55 wrote:
Concrete isn't perfect, and sometimes can take years to fully cure. Rebar isn't the main strength of the concrete, it just mitigates some of the structural weaknesses. Even if the rebar were to dissolve and melt, like the organs of a covid-19 patient, the concrete would still be structurally sound. You just couldn't expect to slam a car into it at high speed.
Kind of a moot point. I would want to slam a car into any kind of concrete unless it was a test vehicle designated for the purpose.
HarveyH55 wrote:
Up in the northern states, they throw a lot of salt on the road, to help with the ice problem in the winter months. Does a real number on the underside of cars. How come all the driveways aren't cracked and caving in. Seems like the rebar would have completely dissolved in just a few years, and rolling a couple thousand pounds of car across the weakened, and crumbling slab would have finish the demolition in short order.
An excellent point.
HarveyH55 wrote:
The truth is that rust only forms on the surface, and doesn't penetrate very deep. That oxide layer protects the metal underneath from further oxidation. That surface layer needs to be removed, exposing bare metal, for more rust to form. Encased in concrete, that surface layer of rust, never gets removed, no further oxidation is possible.

Correct. Well reasoned, sir.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
25-08-2020 03:01
James___
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(3161)
Into the Night wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:

[quote]HarveyH55 wrote:
The truth is that rust only forms on the surface, and doesn't penetrate very deep. That oxide layer protects the metal underneath from further oxidation. That surface layer needs to be removed, exposing bare metal, for more rust to form. Encased in concrete, that surface layer of rust, never gets removed, no further oxidation is possible.

Correct. Well reasoned, sir.



Umm, he got that wrong. When rebar doesn't have a passive layer, it rusts. This expands the material in the concrete cause the cement to crack. Then more water gets in which allows for more rust and more cracking. Just the facts and no reasoning needed.
To understand the reason it needs to be known that steel is processed. It is made by smelting iron ore. This allows steel to be converted into iron oxide. To form iron oxide, salt and water allow electrolysis to occur which is what causes a chemical reaction. This converts steel into iron oxide. I thought everybody knew this but apparently you and Harvey didn't.
So Harvey and ISN'T, in those states that use a lot of salt on roads, apparently they have a passive layer on their rebar.
25-08-2020 04:14
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2396)
James___ wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:

[quote]HarveyH55 wrote:
The truth is that rust only forms on the surface, and doesn't penetrate very deep. That oxide layer protects the metal underneath from further oxidation. That surface layer needs to be removed, exposing bare metal, for more rust to form. Encased in concrete, that surface layer of rust, never gets removed, no further oxidation is possible.

Correct. Well reasoned, sir.



Umm, he got that wrong. When rebar doesn't have a passive layer, it rusts. This expands the material in the concrete cause the cement to crack. Then more water gets in which allows for more rust and more cracking. Just the facts and no reasoning needed.
To understand the reason it needs to be known that steel is processed. It is made by smelting iron ore. This allows steel to be converted into iron oxide. To form iron oxide, salt and water allow electrolysis to occur which is what causes a chemical reaction. This converts steel into iron oxide. I thought everybody knew this but apparently you and Harvey didn't.
So Harvey and ISN'T, in those states that use a lot of salt on roads, apparently they have a passive layer on their rebar.


Have you been playing 'drunken Sailor', or recreating with your meds? You posted complete nonsense, and seemed proud of it.
25-08-2020 05:38
James___
★★★★★
(3161)
HarveyH55 wrote:
James___ wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:

[quote]HarveyH55 wrote:
The truth is that rust only forms on the surface, and doesn't penetrate very deep. That oxide layer protects the metal underneath from further oxidation. That surface layer needs to be removed, exposing bare metal, for more rust to form. Encased in concrete, that surface layer of rust, never gets removed, no further oxidation is possible.

Correct. Well reasoned, sir.



Umm, he got that wrong. When rebar doesn't have a passive layer, it rusts. This expands the material in the concrete cause the cement to crack. Then more water gets in which allows for more rust and more cracking. Just the facts and no reasoning needed.
To understand the reason it needs to be known that steel is processed. It is made by smelting iron ore. This allows steel to be converted into iron oxide. To form iron oxide, salt and water allow electrolysis to occur which is what causes a chemical reaction. This converts steel into iron oxide. I thought everybody knew this but apparently you and Harvey didn't.
So Harvey and ISN'T, in those states that use a lot of salt on roads, apparently they have a passive layer on their rebar.


Have you been playing 'drunken Sailor', or recreating with your meds? You posted complete nonsense, and seemed proud of it.



You must be lashing out at me so people won't notice what you're doing. Or maybe you don't know how to read? This is pretty straightforward. If you don't get it, it's basic chemistry and does involve electrolysis.
I was wrong about the salt because it's the cement itself that is the electrolyte. It's possible that it's the carbon content of which cement has. And when silica is added to the pore mix, it becomes a more reactive electrolyte.
I don't really care to get this deep into why concrete can cause electrolysis to occur. At least it will give Xadoman some information to consider.



Corrosion is an electrochemical process involving the flow of charges (electrons and ions). At active sites on the bar, called anodes, iron atoms lose electrons and move into the surrounding concrete as ferrous ions. This process is called a half-cell oxidation reaction, or the anodic reaction, and is represented as:

2Fe → 2Fe2+ + 4e-

The electrons remain in the bar and flow to sites called cathodes, where they combine with water and oxygen in the concrete. The reaction at the cathode is called a reduction reaction. A common reduction reaction is:

2H2O + O2 + 4e- → 4OH-

To maintain electrical neutrality, the ferrous ions migrate through the concrete pore water to these cathodic sites where they combine to form iron hydroxides, or rust:

2Fe2+ + 4OH- → 2Fe(OH)

This initial precipitated hydroxide tends to react further with oxygen to form higher oxides. The increases in volume as the reaction products react further with dissolved oxygen leads to internal stress within the concrete that may be sufficient to cause cracking and spalling of the concrete cover.
25-08-2020 07:25
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13273)
James___ wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:

[quote]HarveyH55 wrote:
The truth is that rust only forms on the surface, and doesn't penetrate very deep. That oxide layer protects the metal underneath from further oxidation. That surface layer needs to be removed, exposing bare metal, for more rust to form. Encased in concrete, that surface layer of rust, never gets removed, no further oxidation is possible.

Correct. Well reasoned, sir.

Umm, he got that wrong. When rebar doesn't have a passive layer, it rusts.
Nope. No water.
James___ wrote:
This expands the material in the concrete cause the cement to crack.
Rust doesn't expand.
James___ wrote:
Then more water gets in which allows for more rust and more cracking.
No water gets in to concrete.
James___ wrote:
Just the facts and no reasoning needed.
Not facts. Arguments. Learn what 'fact' means.
James___ wrote:
To understand the reason it needs to be known that steel is processed. It is made by smelting iron ore. This allows steel to be converted into iron oxide. To form iron oxide, salt and water allow electrolysis to occur which is what causes a chemical reaction. This converts steel into iron oxide. I thought everybody knew this but apparently you and Harvey didn't.
No water. It doesn't get into the concrete.
James___ wrote:
So Harvey and ISN'T, in those states that use a lot of salt on roads, apparently they have a passive layer on their rebar.


Nope. They simply don't have a problem.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
25-08-2020 07:32
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13273)
James___ wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
James___ wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:

[quote]HarveyH55 wrote:
The truth is that rust only forms on the surface, and doesn't penetrate very deep. That oxide layer protects the metal underneath from further oxidation. That surface layer needs to be removed, exposing bare metal, for more rust to form. Encased in concrete, that surface layer of rust, never gets removed, no further oxidation is possible.

Correct. Well reasoned, sir.

Umm, he got that wrong. When rebar doesn't have a passive layer, it rusts. This expands the material in the concrete cause the cement to crack. Then more water gets in which allows for more rust and more cracking. Just the facts and no reasoning needed.
To understand the reason it needs to be known that steel is processed. It is made by smelting iron ore. This allows steel to be converted into iron oxide. To form iron oxide, salt and water allow electrolysis to occur which is what causes a chemical reaction. This converts steel into iron oxide. I thought everybody knew this but apparently you and Harvey didn't.
So Harvey and ISN'T, in those states that use a lot of salt on roads, apparently they have a passive layer on their rebar.


Have you been playing 'drunken Sailor', or recreating with your meds? You posted complete nonsense, and seemed proud of it.



You must be lashing out at me so people won't notice what you're doing. Or maybe you don't know how to read? This is pretty straightforward. If you don't get it, it's basic chemistry and does involve electrolysis.

Nope. No electrolysis.
James___ wrote:
I was wrong about the salt because it's the cement itself that is the electrolyte.
Cement is not an electrolyte.
James___ wrote:
It's possible that it's the carbon content of which cement has.
Not an electrolyte.
James___ wrote:
And when silica is added to the pore mix, it becomes a more reactive electrolyte.
Not an electrolyte.
James___ wrote:
I don't really care to get this deep into why concrete can cause electrolysis to occur. At least it will give Xadoman some information to consider.
Bad information.
James___ wrote:
Corrosion is an electrochemical process involving the flow of charges (electrons and ions). At active sites on the bar, called anodes, iron atoms lose electrons and move into the surrounding concrete as ferrous ions. This process is called a half-cell oxidation reaction, or the anodic reaction, and is represented as:

2Fe → 2Fe2+ + 4e-

The electrons remain in the bar and flow to sites called cathodes, where they combine with water and oxygen in the concrete. The reaction at the cathode is called a reduction reaction. A common reduction reaction is:

2H2O + O2 + 4e- → 4OH-

To maintain electrical neutrality, the ferrous ions migrate through the concrete pore water to these cathodic sites where they combine to form iron hydroxides, or rust:

2Fe2+ + 4OH- → 2Fe(OH)

Water doesn't get into concrete.
James___ wrote:
This initial precipitated hydroxide tends to react further with oxygen to form higher oxides.

Denial of reduction chemistry.
James___ wrote:
The increases in volume
Rust does not increase the volume of iron or steel.
James___ wrote:
as the reaction products react further with dissolved oxygen leads to internal stress within the concrete
Rebar does not stress concrete.
James___ wrote:
that may be sufficient to cause cracking
Cracking is caused by shrinking or uneven ground support.
James___ wrote:
and spalling of the concrete cover.
Spalling is caused by improper finishing.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
25-08-2020 09:48
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(280)
James got it right. Harvey and ITN both deny reality for some unknown reasons. The main cause of the concrete deterioration is the rotting of the steel inside. It takes time but it is inevitable. As said even stainless steel rebar rusts in the concrete. Bridge decks are normally overhauled after every 25 years or so because the environment is aggressive as hell due to deicing salts.
A layer of rust does not protect iron for further corrosion. Just look at your car and see it for yourself how a little rusty spots turns to a hole quite quickly. Add some deicing salt from the roads in winter and the body will rot very quickly.
How do they protect rebar from rusting inside the concrete?

1. Concrete cover. 3 inch is recommended for concrete that is in contact with soil.
2. Galvanizing, sacrificial anode, epoxy , basalt, glass fiber etc etc

Also, I would just want to point out that concrete has to crack a little so that the rebar in it would start to work . I am not talking about pretensioned structures but about plain simple concrete beams and slabs that have been poured on site into the formwork. The beam or slab has do deflect just a little bit before the rebar starts to bite in and starts its job. Those are of course very small cracks or fractures like James said but those are inevitable. We are not living in an ideal world were cracks and defects are non existent. We have to deal with those problems that arise from non ideal world. Fortunately there are solutions and I use them.
Edited on 25-08-2020 09:50
25-08-2020 10:33
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13273)
Xadoman wrote:
James got it right.

Nope.
Xadoman wrote:
Harvey and ITN both deny reality for some unknown reasons.

Define 'reality'.
Xadoman wrote:
The main cause of the concrete deterioration is the rotting of the steel inside.

Nope. Rust does not deteriorate concrete. It only deteriorates the rebar, and only if water is getting to it. It can't when it's inside the concrete, especially if you seal the concrete.
Xadoman wrote:
It takes time but it is inevitable.

Nope. It is not inevitable.
Xadoman wrote:
As said even stainless steel rebar rusts in the concrete.

Why would it? No water.
Xadoman wrote:
Bridge decks are normally overhauled after every 25 years or so because the environment is aggressive as hell due to deicing salts.

Nope. Because of traffic pounding on it and exposed metal structure.
Xadoman wrote:
A layer of rust does not protect iron for further corrosion.

Correct. Iron will continue to rust (if water is present) until it completely dissolves away. It does not expand when it rusts.
Xadoman wrote:
Just look at your car and see it for yourself how a little rusty spots turns to a hole quite quickly. Add some deicing salt from the roads in winter and the body will rot very quickly.

That's exposed metal. Rebar is no exposed.
Xadoman wrote:
How do they protect rebar from rusting inside the concrete?

It is inside the concrete.
Xadoman wrote:
1. Concrete cover. 3 inch is recommended for concrete that is in contact with soil.
2. Galvanizing, sacrificial anode, epoxy , basalt, glass fiber etc etc

Your belief is your belief. It is erroneous, and your methods of solving your problem are wasting money, but that's just what you are willing to do.
Xadoman wrote:
Also, I would just want to point out that concrete has to crack a little so that the rebar in it would start to work.

Nope. It is working even without cracks.
Xadoman wrote:
I am not talking about pretensioned structures but about plain simple concrete beams and slabs that have been poured on site into the formwork. The beam or slab has do deflect just a little bit before the rebar starts to bite in and starts its job.

Nope. It is working even without the cracks.
Xadoman wrote:
Those are of course very small cracks or fractures like James said but those are inevitable.

No, they aren't.
Xadoman wrote:
We are not living in an ideal world were cracks and defects are non existent.

We are not living in an ideal world where cracks always occur either. You are making a false dichotomy fallacy.
Xadoman wrote:
We have to deal with those problems that arise from non ideal world.

You have to identify the problems. Know your enemy.
Xadoman wrote:
Fortunately there are solutions and I use them.

Your solutions waste a lot of money. But it's what you want to do. Who am I to change your mind?


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
25-08-2020 12:34
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(280)
Nope. It is working even without the cracks.


Steel is designed to be in tension in the concrete. With formwork in place the steel just lays there doing nothing. After you remove the formwork, the beam needs to start holding up its own weight and in the future the designed load. It deflect a litte. It is inevitable. Things deflect in real world. This deflection allows for the corrugated steel rebar bite into the concrete and start doing its work. It also means that there will be small cracks or fractures underside of the beam. This is inevitable. Those cracks are very small but they still are there. Without rebar those cracks would open up and a beam would collapse. Remember, concrete is weak in tension.


We are not living in an ideal world where cracks always occur either. You are making a false dichotomy fallacy.


First thing every structural engineer usually says about concrete is that " every concret cracks". They try to minimize it by reinforcing it. It still cracks but the reinforcement holds it together.
25-08-2020 13:18
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(13273)
Xadoman wrote:
Nope. It is working even without the cracks.


Steel is designed to be in tension in the concrete. With formwork in place the steel just lays there doing nothing. After you remove the formwork, the beam needs to start holding up its own weight and in the future the designed load. It deflect a litte. It is inevitable. Things deflect in real world. This deflection allows for the corrugated steel rebar bite into the concrete and start doing its work. It also means that there will be small cracks or fractures underside of the beam. This is inevitable. Those cracks are very small but they still are there. Without rebar those cracks would open up and a beam would collapse. Remember, concrete is weak in tension.


We are not living in an ideal world where cracks always occur either. You are making a false dichotomy fallacy.


First thing every structural engineer usually says about concrete is that " every concret cracks". They try to minimize it by reinforcing it. It still cracks but the reinforcement holds it together.

Cracks are not inevitable.


The Parrot Killer

Debunked in my sig. - tmiddles

Google keeps track of paranoid talk and i'm not on their list. I've been evaluated and certified. - keepit
25-08-2020 16:06
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(280)
Cracks are not inevitable.


Lets see what guys from eng-tips forum think about that( guys that design bridges and skyscrapers):

When can cracks occur? Any time after placement, depending on conditions. As hokie66 noted, there are two significant types of shrinkage cracking. The first and earliest occurring is plastic shrinkage cracking. This occurs while the concrete is still predominately in a plastic state and is caused by the surface of the concrete drying before the subsurface sets up. The most common cause of this issue is placing the concrete in windy weather. These cracks are usually short, discontinuous cracks that, because of the reduction in cross section they cause, then become connected as typical full section drying shrinkage cracks.


Most cracks occur very early in the curing process but may not be clearly visible for many days after placement. As the concrete continues to shrink with the hydration process, the cracks will widen and become more visible. The cracks will continue to widen with time. You should see most of the cracks that will occur in the placement within the first month.




Concrete cracks. Are there Crack Control Joints cut into the 12 x 25 slab? What is the thickness of the slabs that were poured. Were any test cylinders (for strength) taken? (I guess, probably not. ) Was water added to the concrete during the placement? What was the low temerature for the week after the pour? Were the slabs covered with poly or blankets? Was water or curing compound used?


No, it is not "like a beam". In a slab on ground, the force is applied as direct tension to the slab as the concrete shrinks, and the subgrade restrains this shrinkage. There are two ways of dealing with this type of cracking: 1) Use a lot of reinforcement, say 0.5%AG, which doesn't prevent the cracking, but controls the width of cracks; or 2) Provide control joints, which are also cracks, but nice and straight. The second solution is usually used in things like garages.


the only sure things in life are death, taxes, and concrete cracking. all concrete cracks are not created equal. Many are fine. This is why we have an entire technical field of concrete crack control.


Could go on like this forever.
Edited on 25-08-2020 16:07
25-08-2020 16:50
GasGuzzlerProfile picture★★★★☆
(1783)
No cracks in my driveway or garage slab. 17 years old. It has been exposed to -40F up 105F, frost around 50 inches, and a 7,000lb truck parked on it every day. Guess my concrete guys did something right.
25-08-2020 17:04
HarveyH55
★★★★★
(2396)
Xadoman wrote:
James got it right. Harvey and ITN both deny reality for some unknown reasons. The main cause of the concrete deterioration is the rotting of the steel inside. It takes time but it is inevitable. As said even stainless steel rebar rusts in the concrete. Bridge decks are normally overhauled after every 25 years or so because the environment is aggressive as hell due to deicing salts.
A layer of rust does not protect iron for further corrosion. Just look at your car and see it for yourself how a little rusty spots turns to a hole quite quickly. Add some deicing salt from the roads in winter and the body will rot very quickly.
How do they protect rebar from rusting inside the concrete?

1. Concrete cover. 3 inch is recommended for concrete that is in contact with soil.
2. Galvanizing, sacrificial anode, epoxy , basalt, glass fiber etc etc

Also, I would just want to point out that concrete has to crack a little so that the rebar in it would start to work . I am not talking about pretensioned structures but about plain simple concrete beams and slabs that have been poured on site into the formwork. The beam or slab has do deflect just a little bit before the rebar starts to bite in and starts its job. Those are of course very small cracks or fractures like James said but those are inevitable. We are not living in an ideal world were cracks and defects are non existent. We have to deal with those problems that arise from non ideal world. Fortunately there are solutions and I use them.


No, James got it wrong... Even if concrete produce an electric current, it would be extremely small, and at a very low voltage. Oxidized surfaces are very poor conductors.

You both fail to realize that the rebar is sealed in concrete, the rust layer doesn't get removed or cleaned off, to expose more iron. The thin layer of rust, stays in place, no where to go. Rust exposed to the environment, continues to rust, because it flakes off, gets rinsed, or an abrasive, like sand removes it. Wind and vibration help too.

Electrolysis can also be used to remove rust...

From your engineers... Cracks happen, but isn't really the normal. They reduce the worst chance of getting cracks, and their impact on the project. Rebar prevents separation and movement. Consider a brick wall. You can simply stack the bricks, interlaced, and it will hold up fairly well, if you don't push on it. If you set the bricks in mortar, as you stack them, it's a very strong wall. The mortar holds the bricks in place, can't shift or move. That's really all rebar does, keep the concrete from being deformed, separated, and chunks moving around. Even if the cracks extend all the way through, which is unlikely, the rebar still holds everything in places. Still fails occasionally, but not that common, or it wouldn't be used so much. Sloppy work, and cheap materials is what usually causes such failures.

This is why I don't buy into global warming. It's paranoid-alarmist stuff, where they take something that's technically possible, on paper, if just the right conditions exist, and call it a crisis, spare no expense, to fix it. You aren't in a saltwater environment, but use those examples to support your corrosion panic. I know more about electronics and electricity, more than any other subject I've studied or worked with. A lot of stuff produce measurable electricity, but it's very low voltage and current, and of little potential to do much of anything. We have to chain a bunch of these together, to get sufficient potential to do any sort of work. A single solar cell will produce just 0.5 volts. We need to put a bunch of them in series, to get a useful voltage. Even then, there isn't much current, so we a add a bunch more in parallel. Your rebar in concrete, isn't electrically separated, and wired in series and parallel to get a sufficient potential, to get past the oxide layer, to perform electrolysis. The oxide layer is a very poor conductor, works as insulation on a wire. It's very high resistance. What happens on paper, or in ideal conditions in the lab, isn't the same as outdoors.
25-08-2020 17:26
Xadoman
★★☆☆☆
(280)
GasGuzzler wrote:
No cracks in my driveway or garage slab. 17 years old. It has been exposed to -40F up 105F, frost around 50 inches, and a 7,000lb truck parked on it every day. Guess my concrete guys did something right.


Did they made the sawcuts? If so then those are the cracks- controlled cracks. Also, most cracks are not so big that they are visible to eyes. We can not see the coronavirus but we surely know what it could do. 17 years is also quite a short time even for a regular iron to start rusting in concrete. Most bridges of reinforced concrete were designed to last approximately 50 years but they could outlast their desing life as time has shown. With proper maintenance their life could be extended but eventually they should be demolished before they collapse. Unfortunately some of those have been collapsed before they have been taken out of service.
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