Septic tanks and water pollution

James___ wrote:

Xadoman wrote:

And you're ignoring that it creates glaciers. I posted that over many decades that freezing water can break a bridge. You ignored that yet say it will break a mountain. I think the bridge will break first but will have to visit Washington State to see if Mount Rainier is still there.
It's distinguishable by it's 3 different peaks. Maybe one of them broke?

I do not ignore it creates glaciers. I also do not ignore that it will break a bridge. Freezing water causes a lot of trouble. I know it because I live in a climate where winters are quite cold. Last winter was exeptional - first time in my lifetime there was no ice on the lake. Lets see what this winter brings to us.

I was merely pointing out that if it's sealed which concrete usually is then water won't get into or through the cement. Kind of why I suggested composting it for fertilizer by using a greenhouse.
In being realistic about things, biosolids will need to be used in the future to preserve the topsoil on our farms. Otherwise we'll need to farm everything using hydroponics or import from countries that haven't been farmed as much.

Wasn't the rotten wood structure, what prompted this elaborate concrete work, in the first place? Normal outhouses are built on skids, so you can drag it over a fresh dug hole occasionally, as needed.

He wants to do it the hard and expensive way. Who am I to stop him?

I don't think I would have bothered with rebar at all, not really expecting a heavy load, deposited...

Xadoman wrote:

He wants to do it the hard and expensive way. Who am I to stop him?

Concrete is very cheap and stainless steel is cost effective. Only 3 times more than carbon iron. The whole bunch of rebar( minimum amount they bothered to deliver) cost approximately 800 dollars. Concrete was approximately 1000 dollars. The whole project has cost me around 3500 dollars so far. I can not see it going over 6000 dollars on the whole. I think it is quite cheap considering the properties of the structure.

and the lake you want to 'save' will just return to the swamp from whence it came.

Xadoman wrote:

Wasn't the rotten wood structure, what prompted this elaborate concrete work, in the first place? Normal outhouses are built on skids, so you can drag it over a fresh dug hole occasionally, as needed.

Those kind of pits will get filled with surface water. All this liquidy shit is poisoning the drinking water. As said I have a simple dug well that does not go very deep. All the septic guys have borewells that go 100 or more meters deep. I wonder why.

Xadoman wrote:
My composting toilet is going to be dry closet and will have a minimal effect on the surface water because the seepage from the pit is going to be minuscule.

Xadoman wrote:
BTW if anyone does not know yet then dry closets are by code the "greenest".

Xadoman wrote:
Septic systems are only allowed in sparcely populated areas and the soil conditions must be suitable. Only then you can install the septic system.

Xadoman wrote:

He wants to do it the hard and expensive way. Who am I to stop him?

Concrete is very cheap and stainless steel is cost effective.

Xadoman wrote:
Only 3 times more than carbon iron.

Xadoman wrote:
The whole bunch of rebar( minimum amount they bothered to deliver) cost approximately 800 dollars. Concrete was approximately 1000 dollars. The whole project has cost me around 3500 dollars so far. I can not see it going over 6000 dollars on the whole. I think it is quite cheap considering the properties of the structure.

Xadoman wrote:

I don't think I would have bothered with rebar at all, not really expecting a heavy load, deposited...

Good idea . Rebar after all is the one to blame that currently destroys many concrete structures.

Xadoman wrote:
Without rebar there are no worries about rust problems.

Xadoman wrote:
The structure must be quite massive though because without rebar the concrete is not as strong and may not endure the forces it has to. For a 7 foot high basement wall the code recommends at least one foot thick concrete( without rebar) but I would go ( just to be safe) for 1,5 -2 foot thick wall.

Xadoman wrote:
Your slab probably has no or very minimal rebar in it.

Xadoman wrote:
Slab on grade does not even need a rebar because the strength of the slab depends on the compacted fill that is under the slab.

Xadoman wrote:
Rebar could only minimize cracking for a while but eventually the rebar is going to rust and destroy the slab.

Xadoman wrote:
It is better to pour a slab without the rebar because of it.

HarveyH55 wrote:

Xadoman wrote:

He wants to do it the hard and expensive way. Who am I to stop him?

Concrete is very cheap and stainless steel is cost effective. Only 3 times more than carbon iron. The whole bunch of rebar( minimum amount they bothered to deliver) cost approximately 800 dollars. Concrete was approximately 1000 dollars. The whole project has cost me around 3500 dollars so far. I can not see it going over 6000 dollars on the whole. I think it is quite cheap considering the properties of the structure.

How much to drill a deeper well?

Have you drawn up plans for the wooden structure yet? Most of the outhouses I remember, were constructed mostly of reclaimed wood, pretty basic construction, a door, 4 walls for privacy, and and a roof that didn't leak too much. Do you figure on running electricity out there, for lighting, exhaust fan, heating/cooling. Maybe a smart TV, least a place to charge you phone. How about sink, to wash your hands, after...

Xadoman wrote:
In my opinion the biggest problem with the topsoil is that it is getting thinner year by year. This kind of farming is not sustainable because at one point there is no sufficient thickness for a plant to grow even if it swims in fertilizers. Lakes and shores are full of eroded topsoil and we could pump it out and carry back to fields to restore the soil thickness.

Xadoman wrote:

and the lake you want to 'save' will just return to the swamp from whence it came.

In basic school our history teacher was a complete nuisance. All the kids were afraid of her and basically the whole day was ruined when we had her class that day. She never asked what we thought about this or that. She asked us in front of the class and we had to tell her word by word the story that was written in the book. I just can not imagine the look on her face if I could go back in time to her class and have a guts to tell her the story of my lake. That at some point in history a bunch of guys decides for some reason to turn a swamp to a lake and those guys used steam powered technology. I remember that back in time she mentioned quite a lot of times that she was doubting my reasoning. I wonder what she would have tought about that story.

In this section, the design of plain concrete footings is presented...

Into the Night wrote:

Xadoman wrote:
In my opinion the biggest problem with the topsoil is that it is getting thinner year by year. This kind of farming is not sustainable because at one point there is no sufficient thickness for a plant to grow even if it swims in fertilizers. Lakes and shores are full of eroded topsoil and we could pump it out and carry back to fields to restore the soil thickness.

Soil is created naturally. As long as it is not over exploited, more soil is simply created again. That's what bugs and worms do.

Xadoman wrote:


ITN, take a look at the bottom of the paper and notice the requirements for unreinforced basement walls. Those are of course minimum requirements and I personally would go thicker. I think at least 20 inches( or 50 cm) wall thickness is a way to go with unreinforced concrete.

Xadoman wrote:
Also ITN you could take a look at that paper:

https://www.huduser.gov/portal/publications/pdf/residential.pdf

That is a Residential Structure Design Guide, 2-nd edition.

4.4.2.1 Plain Concrete Footing Design

In this section, the design of plain concrete footings is presented...

4.5.1.1 Plain Concrete Wall Design

ACI 318 defines "plain concrete" as structural concrete with no
reinforcement or with less reinforcement than the minimum amount specified for
reinforced concrete, and ACI 318*22.0 permits its use in wall design.


Also, just for the information: Building Code Requirements for
Structural Concrete (ACI 318-14)


In conclusion - unreinforced concrete structures are allowed by the code. Simple as that.

HarveyH55 wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

Xadoman wrote:
In my opinion the biggest problem with the topsoil is that it is getting thinner year by year. This kind of farming is not sustainable because at one point there is no sufficient thickness for a plant to grow even if it swims in fertilizers. Lakes and shores are full of eroded topsoil and we could pump it out and carry back to fields to restore the soil thickness.

Soil is created naturally. As long as it is not over exploited, more soil is simply created again. That's what bugs and worms do.

Farms do add to the topsoil every season, when they plow under organic matter left from the harvest. They will also truck in other organic materials, like manure, or anything also available cheap. It will rot in the ground worms and bacteria break it down, for the next seasons planting. The problem though, is not enough of the organic material can be added, to keep up with crops. Dirt is dirt, it's there so the roots have something to hold on to, and the plants don't fall over. Different kinds of dirt, has different water retaining properties. Plant's aren't smart, and have just a few basic requirements. They can't tell the difference between naturally occurring, or artificially supplied. Farming is more science now, than just shoving seeds in the ground, and hoping it rains. There are very few failed crops any more, and those are from natural forces we have no control over. We don't control hurricanes or tornadoes...

Xadoman wrote:


ITN, take a look at the bottom of the paper and notice the requirements for unreinforced basement walls. Those are of course minimum requirements and I personally would go thicker. I think at least 20 inches( or 50 cm) wall thickness is a way to go with unreinforced concrete.

I suggest you read the actual code instead of just quoting from this book.

And with 4 sides, rebar might save you 1 yard of mix on each side or about
$360 - $100 = $260

Xadoman wrote:

I suggest you read the actual code instead of just quoting from this book.

ACI 318 defines "plain concrete" as structural concrete with no
reinforcement or with less reinforcement than the minimum amount specified for
reinforced concrete, and ACI 318*22.0 permits its use in wall design.

ACI is the code.

Xadoman wrote:

And with 4 sides, rebar might save you 1 yard of mix on each side or about
$360 - $100 = $260

Do not you agree it is a peanut in the bigger picture? When the rebar starts to rust then it quickly deteriorates the whole wall. Without rebar such failure is not possible. The wall could stand hundreds and hundreds of years in good climate. If you want rebar then stainless steel is the way to go. It is cost effective in the long run.

Xadoman wrote:

And with 4 sides, rebar might save you 1 yard of mix on each side or about
$360 - $100 = $260

Do not you agree it is a peanut in the bigger picture? When the rebar starts to rust then it quickly deteriorates the whole wall. Without rebar such failure is not possible. The wall could stand hundreds and hundreds of years in good climate. If you want rebar then stainless steel is the way to go. It is cost effective in the long run.

HarveyH55 wrote:
Concrete isn't perfect, and sometimes can take years to fully cure. Rebar isn't the main strength of the concrete, it just mitigates some of the structural weaknesses. Even if the rebar were to dissolve and melt, like the organs of a covid-19 patient, the concrete would still be structurally sound. You just couldn't expect to slam a car into it at high speed.

HarveyH55 wrote:
Up in the northern states, they throw a lot of salt on the road, to help with the ice problem in the winter months. Does a real number on the underside of cars. How come all the driveways aren't cracked and caving in. Seems like the rebar would have completely dissolved in just a few years, and rolling a couple thousand pounds of car across the weakened, and crumbling slab would have finish the demolition in short order.

HarveyH55 wrote:
The truth is that rust only forms on the surface, and doesn't penetrate very deep. That oxide layer protects the metal underneath from further oxidation. That surface layer needs to be removed, exposing bare metal, for more rust to form. Encased in concrete, that surface layer of rust, never gets removed, no further oxidation is possible.

Into the Night wrote:

HarveyH55 wrote:

[quote]HarveyH55 wrote:
The truth is that rust only forms on the surface, and doesn't penetrate very deep. That oxide layer protects the metal underneath from further oxidation. That surface layer needs to be removed, exposing bare metal, for more rust to form. Encased in concrete, that surface layer of rust, never gets removed, no further oxidation is possible.

Correct. Well reasoned, sir.

James___ wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

HarveyH55 wrote:

[quote]HarveyH55 wrote:
The truth is that rust only forms on the surface, and doesn't penetrate very deep. That oxide layer protects the metal underneath from further oxidation. That surface layer needs to be removed, exposing bare metal, for more rust to form. Encased in concrete, that surface layer of rust, never gets removed, no further oxidation is possible.

Correct. Well reasoned, sir.

Umm, he got that wrong. When rebar doesn't have a passive layer, it rusts. This expands the material in the concrete cause the cement to crack. Then more water gets in which allows for more rust and more cracking. Just the facts and no reasoning needed.
To understand the reason it needs to be known that steel is processed. It is made by smelting iron ore. This allows steel to be converted into iron oxide. To form iron oxide, salt and water allow electrolysis to occur which is what causes a chemical reaction. This converts steel into iron oxide. I thought everybody knew this but apparently you and Harvey didn't.
So Harvey and ISN'T, in those states that use a lot of salt on roads, apparently they have a passive layer on their rebar.

HarveyH55 wrote:

James___ wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

HarveyH55 wrote:

[quote]HarveyH55 wrote:
The truth is that rust only forms on the surface, and doesn't penetrate very deep. That oxide layer protects the metal underneath from further oxidation. That surface layer needs to be removed, exposing bare metal, for more rust to form. Encased in concrete, that surface layer of rust, never gets removed, no further oxidation is possible.

Correct. Well reasoned, sir.

Umm, he got that wrong. When rebar doesn't have a passive layer, it rusts. This expands the material in the concrete cause the cement to crack. Then more water gets in which allows for more rust and more cracking. Just the facts and no reasoning needed.
To understand the reason it needs to be known that steel is processed. It is made by smelting iron ore. This allows steel to be converted into iron oxide. To form iron oxide, salt and water allow electrolysis to occur which is what causes a chemical reaction. This converts steel into iron oxide. I thought everybody knew this but apparently you and Harvey didn't.
So Harvey and ISN'T, in those states that use a lot of salt on roads, apparently they have a passive layer on their rebar.

Have you been playing 'drunken Sailor', or recreating with your meds? You posted complete nonsense, and seemed proud of it.

James___ wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

HarveyH55 wrote:

[quote]HarveyH55 wrote:
The truth is that rust only forms on the surface, and doesn't penetrate very deep. That oxide layer protects the metal underneath from further oxidation. That surface layer needs to be removed, exposing bare metal, for more rust to form. Encased in concrete, that surface layer of rust, never gets removed, no further oxidation is possible.

Correct. Well reasoned, sir.

Umm, he got that wrong. When rebar doesn't have a passive layer, it rusts.

James___ wrote:
This expands the material in the concrete cause the cement to crack.

James___ wrote:
Then more water gets in which allows for more rust and more cracking.

James___ wrote:
Just the facts and no reasoning needed.

James___ wrote:
To understand the reason it needs to be known that steel is processed. It is made by smelting iron ore. This allows steel to be converted into iron oxide. To form iron oxide, salt and water allow electrolysis to occur which is what causes a chemical reaction. This converts steel into iron oxide. I thought everybody knew this but apparently you and Harvey didn't.

James___ wrote:
So Harvey and ISN'T, in those states that use a lot of salt on roads, apparently they have a passive layer on their rebar.

James___ wrote:

HarveyH55 wrote:

James___ wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

HarveyH55 wrote:

[quote]HarveyH55 wrote:
The truth is that rust only forms on the surface, and doesn't penetrate very deep. That oxide layer protects the metal underneath from further oxidation. That surface layer needs to be removed, exposing bare metal, for more rust to form. Encased in concrete, that surface layer of rust, never gets removed, no further oxidation is possible.

Correct. Well reasoned, sir.

Umm, he got that wrong. When rebar doesn't have a passive layer, it rusts. This expands the material in the concrete cause the cement to crack. Then more water gets in which allows for more rust and more cracking. Just the facts and no reasoning needed.
To understand the reason it needs to be known that steel is processed. It is made by smelting iron ore. This allows steel to be converted into iron oxide. To form iron oxide, salt and water allow electrolysis to occur which is what causes a chemical reaction. This converts steel into iron oxide. I thought everybody knew this but apparently you and Harvey didn't.
So Harvey and ISN'T, in those states that use a lot of salt on roads, apparently they have a passive layer on their rebar.

Have you been playing 'drunken Sailor', or recreating with your meds? You posted complete nonsense, and seemed proud of it.

You must be lashing out at me so people won't notice what you're doing. Or maybe you don't know how to read? This is pretty straightforward. If you don't get it, it's basic chemistry and does involve electrolysis.

James___ wrote:
I was wrong about the salt because it's the cement itself that is the electrolyte.

James___ wrote:
It's possible that it's the carbon content of which cement has.

James___ wrote:
And when silica is added to the pore mix, it becomes a more reactive electrolyte.

James___ wrote:
I don't really care to get this deep into why concrete can cause electrolysis to occur. At least it will give Xadoman some information to consider.

James___ wrote:
Corrosion is an electrochemical process involving the flow of charges (electrons and ions). At active sites on the bar, called anodes, iron atoms lose electrons and move into the surrounding concrete as ferrous ions. This process is called a half-cell oxidation reaction, or the anodic reaction, and is represented as:

2Fe → 2Fe2+ + 4e-

The electrons remain in the bar and flow to sites called cathodes, where they combine with water and oxygen in the concrete. The reaction at the cathode is called a reduction reaction. A common reduction reaction is:

2H2O + O2 + 4e- → 4OH-

To maintain electrical neutrality, the ferrous ions migrate through the concrete pore water to these cathodic sites where they combine to form iron hydroxides, or rust:

2Fe2+ + 4OH- → 2Fe(OH)

James___ wrote:
This initial precipitated hydroxide tends to react further with oxygen to form higher oxides.

James___ wrote:
The increases in volume

James___ wrote:
as the reaction products react further with dissolved oxygen leads to internal stress within the concrete

James___ wrote:
that may be sufficient to cause cracking

James___ wrote:
and spalling of the concrete cover.

Xadoman wrote:
James got it right.

Xadoman wrote:
Harvey and ITN both deny reality for some unknown reasons.

Xadoman wrote:
The main cause of the concrete deterioration is the rotting of the steel inside.

Nope. Rust does not deteriorate concrete. It only deteriorates the rebar, and only if water is getting to it. It can't when it's inside the concrete, especially if you seal the concrete.
Xadoman wrote:
It takes time but it is inevitable.

Xadoman wrote:
As said even stainless steel rebar rusts in the concrete.

Xadoman wrote:
Bridge decks are normally overhauled after every 25 years or so because the environment is aggressive as hell due to deicing salts.

Xadoman wrote:
A layer of rust does not protect iron for further corrosion.

Xadoman wrote:
Just look at your car and see it for yourself how a little rusty spots turns to a hole quite quickly. Add some deicing salt from the roads in winter and the body will rot very quickly.

Xadoman wrote:
How do they protect rebar from rusting inside the concrete?

Xadoman wrote:
1. Concrete cover. 3 inch is recommended for concrete that is in contact with soil.
2. Galvanizing, sacrificial anode, epoxy , basalt, glass fiber etc etc

Xadoman wrote:
Also, I would just want to point out that concrete has to crack a little so that the rebar in it would start to work.

Xadoman wrote:
I am not talking about pretensioned structures but about plain simple concrete beams and slabs that have been poured on site into the formwork. The beam or slab has do deflect just a little bit before the rebar starts to bite in and starts its job.

Xadoman wrote:
Those are of course very small cracks or fractures like James said but those are inevitable.

Xadoman wrote:
We are not living in an ideal world were cracks and defects are non existent.

Xadoman wrote:
We have to deal with those problems that arise from non ideal world.

Xadoman wrote:
Fortunately there are solutions and I use them.

Nope. It is working even without the cracks.

We are not living in an ideal world where cracks always occur either. You are making a false dichotomy fallacy.

Xadoman wrote:

Nope. It is working even without the cracks.

Steel is designed to be in tension in the concrete. With formwork in place the steel just lays there doing nothing. After you remove the formwork, the beam needs to start holding up its own weight and in the future the designed load. It deflect a litte. It is inevitable. Things deflect in real world. This deflection allows for the corrugated steel rebar bite into the concrete and start doing its work. It also means that there will be small cracks or fractures underside of the beam. This is inevitable. Those cracks are very small but they still are there. Without rebar those cracks would open up and a beam would collapse. Remember, concrete is weak in tension.

We are not living in an ideal world where cracks always occur either. You are making a false dichotomy fallacy.

First thing every structural engineer usually says about concrete is that " every concret cracks". They try to minimize it by reinforcing it. It still cracks but the reinforcement holds it together.

Cracks are not inevitable.

When can cracks occur? Any time after placement, depending on conditions. As hokie66 noted, there are two significant types of shrinkage cracking. The first and earliest occurring is plastic shrinkage cracking. This occurs while the concrete is still predominately in a plastic state and is caused by the surface of the concrete drying before the subsurface sets up. The most common cause of this issue is placing the concrete in windy weather. These cracks are usually short, discontinuous cracks that, because of the reduction in cross section they cause, then become connected as typical full section drying shrinkage cracks.

Most cracks occur very early in the curing process but may not be clearly visible for many days after placement. As the concrete continues to shrink with the hydration process, the cracks will widen and become more visible. The cracks will continue to widen with time. You should see most of the cracks that will occur in the placement within the first month.

Concrete cracks. Are there Crack Control Joints cut into the 12 x 25 slab? What is the thickness of the slabs that were poured. Were any test cylinders (for strength) taken? (I guess, probably not. ) Was water added to the concrete during the placement? What was the low temerature for the week after the pour? Were the slabs covered with poly or blankets? Was water or curing compound used?

No, it is not "like a beam". In a slab on ground, the force is applied as direct tension to the slab as the concrete shrinks, and the subgrade restrains this shrinkage. There are two ways of dealing with this type of cracking: 1) Use a lot of reinforcement, say 0.5%AG, which doesn't prevent the cracking, but controls the width of cracks; or 2) Provide control joints, which are also cracks, but nice and straight. The second solution is usually used in things like garages.

the only sure things in life are death, taxes, and concrete cracking. all concrete cracks are not created equal. Many are fine. This is why we have an entire technical field of concrete crack control.

Xadoman wrote:
James got it right. Harvey and ITN both deny reality for some unknown reasons. The main cause of the concrete deterioration is the rotting of the steel inside. It takes time but it is inevitable. As said even stainless steel rebar rusts in the concrete. Bridge decks are normally overhauled after every 25 years or so because the environment is aggressive as hell due to deicing salts.
A layer of rust does not protect iron for further corrosion. Just look at your car and see it for yourself how a little rusty spots turns to a hole quite quickly. Add some deicing salt from the roads in winter and the body will rot very quickly.
How do they protect rebar from rusting inside the concrete?

1. Concrete cover. 3 inch is recommended for concrete that is in contact with soil.
2. Galvanizing, sacrificial anode, epoxy , basalt, glass fiber etc etc

Also, I would just want to point out that concrete has to crack a little so that the rebar in it would start to work . I am not talking about pretensioned structures but about plain simple concrete beams and slabs that have been poured on site into the formwork. The beam or slab has do deflect just a little bit before the rebar starts to bite in and starts its job. Those are of course very small cracks or fractures like James said but those are inevitable. We are not living in an ideal world were cracks and defects are non existent. We have to deal with those problems that arise from non ideal world. Fortunately there are solutions and I use them.

GasGuzzler wrote:
No cracks in my driveway or garage slab. 17 years old. It has been exposed to -40F up 105F, frost around 50 inches, and a 7,000lb truck parked on it every day. Guess my concrete guys did something right.