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Population Change and Demography - the malthusian rate.



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Population Change and Demography - the malthusian rate.07-10-2019 17:26
Amanbir Grewal
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(13)
Thomas Robert Malthus FRS (13 February 1766 – 23 December 1834) was an English cleric and scholar, influential in the fields of political economy and demography.

He wrote: 'That the increase of population is necessarily limited by the means of subsistence, That population does invariably increase when the means of subsistence increase;

The Malthusian trap or population trap is a condition whereby excess population would stop growing due to shortage of food supply leading to starvation.

According to Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations the world's arable land amounted to 1,407 M ha, out of a total 4,924 M ha land used for agriculture, as for year 2013.

This puts a ceiling on the world population. At current growth rates, this is to be attained in a given number of years, 'stabilizing time'.

Linear decay trajectories for the incremental population (currently 83 million) extends the stabilization time by a factor of two, or a doubling.

Other trajectories must be concave to achieve more normalized decays.
Attached image:


Edited on 07-10-2019 17:30
07-10-2019 17:34
Amanbir Grewal
☆☆☆☆☆
(13)
Graph 1
Attached image:

07-10-2019 17:37
Amanbir Grewal
☆☆☆☆☆
(13)
Graph 2
Attached image:

07-10-2019 20:57
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1482)
So, what the graph is saying, is that if we reduce atmospheric CO2, crops will do poorly, less productive, and people will starve to death by the millions...
08-10-2019 07:55
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1394)
Amanbir Grewal wrote:
Thomas Robert Malthus FRS (13 February 1766 – 23 December 1834) was an English cleric and scholar, influential in the fields of political economy and demography.

He wrote: 'That the increase of population is necessarily limited by the means of subsistence, That population does invariably increase when the means of subsistence increase;


Well I guess we can't all be right. He is certainly wrong unless you're under the impression a food shortage and not affluence caused the decline in the human birth rate (also birth control helped out a lot!).
The only reason we haven't already seen the world population stop growing is that medical care has allowed people to live so much longer.
08-10-2019 19:40
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5026)
tmiddles wrote: Well I guess we can't all be right.

... and you should know.

The population is exploding ... well, increasing steadily with accelerated growth, despite any graphics you might fancy that are designed for the gullible.

Reality, and actual population increase doesn't jive with your chart (and your smug misconception). It requires less and less time for the population to grow by another billion.

World population: *** Year *** *** Time to add 1 billion
1 billion ***** ***** 1804
2 billion ***** ***** 1927 *** *** 123 years
3 billion ***** ***** 1960 *** *** 33 years
4 billion ***** ***** 1974 *** *** 14 years
5 billion ***** ***** 1987 *** *** 13 years
6 billion ***** ***** 1999 *** *** 12 years
7 billion ***** ***** 2010 *** *** 11 years

The current world population is about 7.8 billion. We are on course to arrive at:

8 billion ***** ***** 2020 *** *** 10 years

Your declining birth rate and slowing population growth is mere Marxist wishful thinking.

Whenever a Marxist professes faith, it's a sure bet that reality is the exact opposite.

.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
09-10-2019 13:53
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1394)
IBdaMann wrote:...graphics you might fancy that are designed for the gullible....

OK so you claim that graphic presents false information? What has happened to the birth rate since the 1950s? Enlighten us.

I already pointed out that longer human life spans have cause the population to continue to increase.

I don't even understand what you think is a right or left issue on this one? It's great that the birth rate dropped. Celebrate! We'd be screwed otherwise.



"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is ever valid for them[/quote]
09-10-2019 15:52
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5026)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:...graphics you might fancy that are designed for the gullible....

OK so you claim that graphic presents false information?

Nope. I said it was aimed at the gullible who will eagerly draw erroneous conclusions, as you did.

Re-read your previous post of how you drew a really stupid conclusion using that graphic as the basis for your stupid conclusion, and then re-read my post explaining how your erroneous conclusion does not jive with reality. That should be all the explanation you need to see that you made a mistake.

Then you go figure out how that happened. You would best be able to answer that question.

.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
10-10-2019 02:47
VernerHornungProfile picture★☆☆☆☆
(133)
tmiddles wrote:
I don't even understand what you [IBdaMann] think is a right or left issue on this one? It's great that the birth rate dropped. Celebrate! We'd be screwed otherwise.

God's grace the growth rate didn't stay at 2% per annum:

Pop. now = 1960 Pop. x (1.02)^60
= 3 billion x (1.02)^60

ln (Pop. now) = ln 3 billion + 60 ln 1.02
60 ln 1.02 = 60 x 0.0198026
= 1.18816

Pop. now = 3 billion x exp 1.18896
≈ 9.8 billion

An extra 2.1 billion mouths over where we're at today. The growth rate is 1% now. But it's growing from a larger base, 7.7 billion, so more babies are born each year than in 1960 despite half the growth rate. Demographic momentum ensures the population would continue rising quite a while even if fertility went below replacement. Stabilization is delayed until the older generations die off.

Most growth is in crummy African and Southwestern Asian countries where your kids are your Social Security because governments do nothing to help retirees. As kids may leave the village, refuse to support parents, end up poor themselves, or die early, mothers have every incentive to have 5 to guarantee 2 will remain around after the years roll on. It ain't a left-right issue by any route, and even if the hungrier mouths aren't driving the F-150s (with masher grille) popular in Utah, they're chopping trees to burn the wood—and promote bacteria and fungi that release CO2, CH4 and N2O, all of which relish denuded forests.

Unfortunately, Putin was right that poor countries will have to use oil—which he'll supply, to develop. They can't afford solar panels & windmills their terrorists will target anyway, and the world may actually have to emit more CO2 for time being if it wants to emit less in the long run. Development is crucial to achieving political stability and levelling off our rabbit-like human numbers, which is in turn crucial to any environmental success.

World-O-Meters
(Watch population whirl on an odometer)
https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/


Never try to solve an NP-complete problem on your own with pencil & paper.
10-10-2019 14:45
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1394)
VernerHornung wrote:
An extra 2.1 billion mouths over where we're at today...

Yeah it's an amazing development and thank God for it!! The thing that exposes every doom and gloom environmental alarmist for being uninformed is that not only do they not discuss it they are largely ignorant of it or convinced its not true. I think it's the single biggest story of the last 100 years.

Also amazing it just happened, unregulated. From the birth control pill to general prosperity all the stars aligned and none too soon.


"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is ever valid for them
10-10-2019 23:37
VernerHornungProfile picture★☆☆☆☆
(133)
tmiddles wrote:
The thing that exposes every doom and gloom environmental alarmist for being uninformed is that not only do they not discuss it they are largely ignorant of it or convinced its not true. I think it's the single biggest story of the last 100 years.

We can understand Greta's only 16 and on her first environmental fad. I'm old enough to have witnessed four of them come and three leave the stage. Curious how you can't even find a copy of The Population Bomb (Paul Ehrlich) anymore. Pesticides morphed from birds with soft-shelled eggs to GMO Frankenfoods on the margin and WWIII burst when the Wall fell and they closed the test sites. All are still serious issues, but none mean instant doom.

We've another tale of woe, just the substance is now CO2. At least Greta has enough warning to sail the Atlantic on tour. We Cold War young'uns expected to have minutes and I still rate nuclear weapons a graver threat to the globe than climate change. The faddism scatters our approach to problems, leading to a huge UN bureaucracy worrying over CO2 amid seeming unconcern with the fact that Trump's throwing the arms control treaties out the window. Then we have those cross-fiddles, Antinukes denying us a carbon-free, on-demand power source while they condemn Poland for burning coal.

We need a balance. Yes, fossil fuels will have to be curbed lest production declines choke our economy or CO2 accumulate to the point a real climate adversity ensues. Yet IPCC doesn't even have energy on its plate. There's a mix of universal health care, education, food security, women, Indigenous people and access to energy, the last of which will actually cause more CO2. These are desirable social goods in poor countries—I'm not stone-hearted about human needs—but they're not what IPCC should be focused on, which is research on how to develop a cleaner power picture.


Never try to solve an NP-complete problem on your own with pencil & paper.
Edited on 10-10-2019 23:49
11-10-2019 12:39
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1394)
VernerHornung wrote:...environmental fad...Pesticides morphed from birds with soft-shelled eggs to GMO Frankenfoods...
Yeah there is a definite flavor of the month pattern. My theory is that humans are wired for a dragon slayer mentality. The BIG FOE is always described with equal gravity it seems and for all political groups. Terrorism, Communism, Environmentalism, Social Justice, Heresy, there's always something to hang your helmet on.

VernerHornung wrote:
...I still rate nuclear weapons a graver threat to the globe than climate change....
Yeah we've seen how organized crime can have their own private arsenal in Russia. That could happen anywhere. We're still at 2 minutes to midnight:
https://thebulletin.org/doomsday-clock/

VernerHornung wrote:...IPCC doesn't even have energy on its plate....

I think it's fair to say the discredit themselves by straying from their area of focus. They should ONLY talk about thing they thing are factors in the climate and that's all. The social policies are for others to discuss.

"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is ever valid for them
11-10-2019 21:10
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
VernerHornung wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
The thing that exposes every doom and gloom environmental alarmist for being uninformed is that not only do they not discuss it they are largely ignorant of it or convinced its not true. I think it's the single biggest story of the last 100 years.

We can understand Greta's only 16 and on her first environmental fad.

Just another member of the New Fascist Youth.
VernerHornung wrote:
I'm old enough to have witnessed four of them come and three leave the stage. Curious how you can't even find a copy of The Population Bomb (Paul Ehrlich) anymore.
Pesticides morphed from birds with soft-shelled eggs
to GMO Frankenfoods
on the margin and WWIII burst when the Wall fell and they closed the test sites.
All are still serious issues, but none mean instant doom.

None of these were ever serious issues.
VernerHornung wrote:
We've another tale of woe, just the substance is now CO2.

CO2 is not a tale of woe.
VernerHornung wrote:
At least Greta has enough warning to sail the Atlantic on tour. We Cold War young'uns expected to have minutes and I still rate nuclear weapons a graver threat to the globe than climate change. The faddism scatters our approach to problems, leading to a huge UN bureaucracy worrying over CO2 amid seeming unconcern with the fact that Trump's throwing the arms control treaties out the window.

No, he's simply acknowledging that the treaties were already broken, and not by the United States.
VernerHornung wrote:
Then we have those cross-fiddles, Antinukes denying us a carbon-free, on-demand power source while they condemn Poland for burning coal.

Nothing wrong with either power source.
VernerHornung wrote:
We need a balance. Yes, fossil fuels will have to be curbed

Fossils aren't use for fuel.
VernerHornung wrote:
lest production declines choke our economy

There is no economy around using fossils for fuel. Fossils don't burn.
VernerHornung wrote:
or CO2 accumulate to the point a real climate adversity ensues.

CO2 is not capable of warming the Earth. Climate cannot change. It is not a quantifiable value.
VernerHornung wrote:
Yet IPCC doesn't even have energy on its plate.

Lie.
VernerHornung wrote:
There's a mix of universal health care, education, food security, women, Indigenous people

Buzzword fallacies. Socialism doesn't work. Racism is a fallacy.
VernerHornung wrote:
and access to energy, the last of which will actually cause more CO2.

Nothing wrong with CO2.
VernerHornung wrote:
These are desirable social goods in poor countries—I'm not stone-hearted about human needs—

Yes you are. You support socialism. You support the theft of wealth.
VernerHornung wrote:
but they're not what IPCC should be focused on, which is research on how to develop a cleaner power picture.

There is nothing dirty about CO2. It is an odorless colorless gas that naturally occurs in the atmosphere.


The Parrot Killer
11-10-2019 21:32
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5026)
tmiddles wrote: I think it's fair to say the discredit themselves by straying from their area of focus. They should ONLY talk about thing they thing are factors in the climate and that's all.

Should they unambiguously define "Climate" at least in terms of how they are using it?

.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
12-10-2019 18:00
VernerHornungProfile picture★☆☆☆☆
(133)
tmiddles wrote:
The social policies are for others to discuss.

Indeed, but IPCC, a consortium of 195 member governments, tacked on the social agenda from the start (in 1988) as the less-developed world insisted on it. At least their First Assessment Report had said that more research on climate was needed; a mind-numbing schema of "high," "medium" and "low" confidence has developed since then. For physics behind the models, IPCC gives only references to the professional literature. If some basics for the energy balance can found on the web, don't expect an easy hunt. One better item is

Simple Climate Models
Penn State
https://www.e-education.psu.edu/meteo469/node/137

*Beware of typos. The minus sign that should be in front of the A in equation 5 is missing.

All such models, no matter how sophisticated, include "tweaks," that is, constants inserted on an ad hoc basis to make the output fit the observational data. Computer simulation helps scientists gain better insight on how the atmosphere works; we're privileged to have computers when Svante Arrhenius & Max Planck had only slide rules or tables. I'm unwilling to make multitrillion-dollar policy bets from the models, however.

Into the Night wrote:
Just another member of the New Fascist Youth.

Do you really know what that word means? Doubtful. Not too many people read Alfredo Rocco anymore. And the ones crying "fascist" today seem in love with Putin, the man who didn't mind killing 300 innocent civilians in the Moscow apartment block bombings of 1999 to get himself elected president and the one who poisoned Alexander Litvinenko with radioactive tea. Not to mention the murder of his political rival Boris Nemtsov on a Moscow bridge 4 years ago, along with an attempted nerve agent poisoning in London.

Current level of discourse on Twitter encourages the recent trashing of an autistic teen as a "fascist." It rankles me. Greta's misled in a big way by the older gents taking advantage of her naiveté, but she's hardly a Hitlerite.

Into the Night wrote:
Yes you are. You support socialism. You support the theft of wealth.

If you don't like "socialism," you can always go live on an island and hire your own goons to defend your wealth from those who'd really want to steal it, and another squad to enforce the contracts you sign with business partners, a thing businesses rely on the courts to do here. And your own R&D crew for the basic research that comes from public universities.

The mixed economy is what sane people prefer. Legitimate controversy exists over what the proper functions of government versus private industry should be, and I've seen a lot of creeping federal encroachment over the years I object to. But the world of 1790 Daily Caller's patriots imagine isn't about to return. Even back in the day it was never the way these blokes think it was; you'll never hear anything on the Whiskey Rebellion from them.

As for Brazil or Angola, it's up to those countries to decide how much socialism they want at home.


Never try to solve an NP-complete problem on your own with pencil & paper.
12-10-2019 18:38
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5026)
VernerHornung wrote:Simple Climate Models
Penn State
https://www.e-education.psu.edu/meteo469/node/137

VernerHornung, this is funny and you're probably going to laugh ... actually everybody should get a chuckle out of this ...

Do you know what's not at that link? That's right! Models. There are no models at the link you posted for models. Now I know that you actually looked at the site to which you linked because you made some comments about it.

So I have to ask, do you even know what the word "model" means? You clearly believe that the word "model" means "calculation."

That's pretty embarrassing. I certainly hope you don't go around implying that others don't know what words mean. That would be some serious projection.

VernerHornung wrote: Do you really know what that word means? Doubtful.

Oooops. You did. You're not doing too well in this post. Into the Night is completely correct, it's just that your reading comprehension is so poor that you didn't understand what he wrote. Instead of implying that he doesn't know something, you should recognize that it is you who is an ignorant moron who can't fully grasp simple words and politely ask for clarification on those points you don't understand. It's easy and you won't embarrass yourself.

Watch.

"Into the Night, could you explain why little miss idiot is a 'fascist youth'?"

You see. Piece of cake. It's a guarantee that he'll answer your question and you won't have to flail in embarrassing frustration.

.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
12-10-2019 19:24
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
VernerHornung wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Just another member of the New Fascist Youth.

Do you really know what that word means?

Fascism is an economic system of government control of businesses and wealth through the use of regulations and laws, but keeping ownership of those businesses and wealth private. The word was coined by Mussolini to describe his economic system of Italy. It is a form of socialism, and a step on the way to communism. The concept of governments forcing people and taking their own decisions out of their hands is thousands of years old. Karl Marx proposed this particular form of it, and sold it to many leaders of the world, including both Mussolini, Hitler, FDR, and Stalin. Each leader implemented socialism in their own way.
VernerHornung wrote:
Doubtful. Not too many people read Alfredo Rocco anymore.

Irrelevant.
VernerHornung wrote:
And the ones crying "fascist" today seem in love with Putin,

I have no love for Putin. Neither does Trump.
VernerHornung wrote:
the man who didn't mind killing 300 innocent civilians in the Moscow apartment block bombings of 1999 to get himself elected president and the one who poisoned Alexander Litvinenko with radioactive tea. Not to mention the murder of his political rival Boris Nemtsov on a Moscow bridge 4 years ago, along with an attempted nerve agent poisoning in London.

Some of the many reasons. why.
VernerHornung wrote:
Current level of discourse on Twitter encourages the recent trashing of an autistic teen as a "fascist." It rankles me.

It should. Fascists using her in this way is akin to the Hitler Youth. Using children like this is sick.
VernerHornung wrote:
Greta's misled in a big way by the older gents taking advantage of her naiveté, but she's hardly a Hitlerite.

Fascism isn't just Hitler. It's an economic system. It is everywhere, even in the United States, even though such elements are unconstitutional here.
VernerHornung wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Yes you are. You support socialism. You support the theft of wealth.

If you don't like "socialism," you can always go live on an island

No need. But I will fight it where I see it.
VernerHornung wrote:
and hire your own goons to defend your wealth from those who'd really want to steal it,

We already have. They are called 'police'.
VernerHornung wrote:
and another squad to enforce the contracts you sign with business partners,

We already have. They are called 'civil lawsuits'.
VernerHornung wrote:
a thing businesses rely on the courts to do here.

Yup. That's not socialism or fascism.
VernerHornung wrote:
And your own R&D crew for the basic research that comes from public universities.

Public education is communism. No one owns any school or university in public education. It is all owned and controlled by the government. The Constitution of the United States never authorized the federal government this power. You will not even see the word 'education' anywhere in the Constitution.
VernerHornung wrote:
The mixed economy is what sane people prefer.

Bigotry. YALIF.
VernerHornung wrote:
Legitimate controversy exists over what the proper functions of government versus private industry should be,

No. The United States is organized as a federated republic. The constitutions declare and define governments and what authority they have.
VernerHornung wrote:
and I've seen a lot of creeping federal encroachment over the years I object to.

Because they have exceeded their authority. They never had any authority to begin with for most of what the federal government does.
VernerHornung wrote:
But the world of 1790 Daily Caller's patriots imagine isn't about to return.

Irrelevant. The Constitution of the United States still exists. It is worth defending it.


The Parrot Killer
12-10-2019 19:26
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
IBdaMann wrote:
"Into the Night, could you explain why little miss idiot is a 'fascist youth'?"


Just did. I assumed he had no idea. He just takes a much longer winded way of coming to the same question.



The Parrot Killer
13-10-2019 21:21
Amanbir Grewal
☆☆☆☆☆
(13)
now we try and understand the dynamics involving nations.
Attached image:

14-10-2019 14:41
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1394)
Into the Night wrote:Fossils aren't use for fuel.
God you waste space ITN

IBdaMann wrote:define "Climate"
They're good. Temperature of Earth at ground level (where we live).

VernerHornung wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
The social policies are for others to discuss.

Indeed, but IPCC, a consortium of 195 member governments, tacked on the social agenda ...
Sorta reminds me of the nutrition education being co-opted by the meat and dairy industry with the 4 basic food groups. WHY would you announce to the world a huge conflict of interest from THE center of study. So lame.

VernerHornung wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Just another member of the New Fascist Youth.

Do you really know what that word means? Doubtful.
Maybe he thinks Akhenaten was a fascist for worshiping the Sun and Greta worships her dictator the Climate god.

VernerHornung wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Yes you are. You support socialism.

The mixed economy is what sane people prefer.
Well said. I think some weirdo's like Peter Thiel actually want to make private countries https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-30/floating-island-project-pushes-on-without-peter-thiel-s-support

Spoken like a true anarchist ITN.

IBdaMann wrote:
Do you know what's not at that link?
Sums up IBD's contribution to anything.

Into the Night wrote:
Fascism is an economic system of government...
You just love making up your own definitions. I like how "authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power" is totally missing from you definition. You don't get to redefine words ITN! Kindly explain how Greta is a ULTRANATIONALIST!

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
now we try and understand the dynamics involving nations.

You mean of immigration and a longer lifespan?
"United Kingdom/Fertility rate 1.80 births per woman (2016)"

We are also blessed in the US with immigration increasing our population though the birth rate is also 1.8 (you need 2.1 to replace the population)


"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is ever valid for them
14-10-2019 20:38
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:Fossils aren't use for fuel.
God you waste space ITN

You don't own disk space or memory on this website, dude. You don't get to declare who is 'wasting space'.

tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:define "Climate"
They're good. Temperature of Earth at ground level (where we live).

Climate has no temperature. Climate is a subjective word and not quantifiable, nor is made up of anything quantifiable.
tmiddles wrote:
VernerHornung wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Yes you are. You support socialism.

The mixed economy is what sane people prefer.
Well said. I think some weirdo's like Peter Thiel actually want to make private countries
Spoken like a true anarchist ITN.

Redefinition fallacy (capitalism<->anarchy).
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Fascism is an economic system of government...
You just love making up your own definitions.

I didn't make up that definition. Mussolini did. You can blame Karl Marx, if anyone.
tmiddles wrote:
I like how "authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power" is totally missing from you definition.

Not part of the definition. Redefinition fallacies (fascism<->dictatorship, economy<->dictatorship, globalist<->nationalist).
tmiddles wrote:
You don't get to redefine words ITN!

Inversion fallacy.
tmiddles wrote:
Kindly explain how Greta is a ULTRANATIONALIST!

No need. She isn't. She's a globalist, just like Hitler, just like Stalin, just like Mussolini. She has been manipulated by fascists to promote fascism.

See the Communist Manifesto and the history of WW2.


The Parrot Killer
15-10-2019 17:30
VernerHornungProfile picture★☆☆☆☆
(133)
IBdaMann wrote:
There are no models at the link you posted for models. Now I know that you actually looked at the site to which you linked because you made some comments about it.

You must not have continued to the second page and clicked on the link at the bottom where you can run the model. The sliders on the screen let you vary the solar constant, albedo and CO2. Radio buttons next to these select the linearization parameters. The calculated output appears in the yellow box.



IBdaMann wrote:
You clearly believe that the word "model" means "calculation."

Models are calculations. Unless they're model Messerschmitts for model fascists like Rudolf Hess to fly to England in. Earlier I gave you a link to NCAR's CESM-2 model assuming you wanted performance instead of the polystyrene they sell at Hobby Lobby. That one even came with a tube of model airplane glue to get high on. But you complained about it, telling me you wanted to write the code yourself, so I decided not to strain the gears in your head this time.

Into the Night wrote:
Karl Marx proposed this particular form of it, and sold it to many leaders of the world, including both Mussolini, Hitler, FDR, ...

Then why did Joseph Goebbels publish a cartoon celebrating Karl Marx's 1843 emigration from Germany? Given Marx died, in England no less, before the others were more than tykes, I doubt he could have sold his ideas to any of the people you've listed.

Into the Night wrote:
Public education is communism.

Ah, now we see the problem. Without schools, we needn't worry about our children's minds being corrupted by things akin to science or history, and Mom can teach them their ABCs and 2+2s at home. How blessed we are that the Puritans who established America's first public schools back in 1648 disagreed with that notion.

Into the Night wrote:
The Constitution of the United States never authorized the federal government this power.

Nor did it forbid cities and states to do so. Dick Cheney graduated from the University of Wyoming if I recall.

tmiddles wrote:
Sorta reminds me of the nutrition education being co-opted by the meat and dairy industry with the 4 basic food groups.

Bullseye, Middles. Half the pie occupied by farting cows.

tmiddles wrote:
Maybe he thinks Akhenaten was a fascist for worshiping the Sun and Greta worships her dictator the Climate god.

Unless Greta's really the pharaoh's daughter Ankhesenamun in disguise, whereupon the priests of CO2 have forced her back to the cult of Amun in an Osirian underworld.


Never try to solve an NP-complete problem on your own with pencil & paper.
Edited on 15-10-2019 18:01
15-10-2019 19:02
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5026)
VernerHornung wrote: You must not have continued to the second page and clicked on the link at the bottom where you can run the model.

If I had needed to go to that other different link, then you screwed up by posting the wrong link.

Try again. Post a link to a model, ... not to an application that I can run but to a model that I can implement in my own program. I've got Java. I've got Python. I've got others. I'll code up the program, just give me the underlying model.

VernerHornung wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
You clearly believe that the word "model" means "calculation."

Models are calculations.

Nope. That's just your misunderstanding. You think a model is a computer program. Oh well.

Models are often implemented in computer programs. If you are saying that there is at least one Climate model being implemented in a computer program somewhere then I want that model so I can scrutinize it and then program it.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
15-10-2019 21:30
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
VernerHornung wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
There are no models at the link you posted for models. Now I know that you actually looked at the site to which you linked because you made some comments about it.

You must not have continued to the second page and clicked on the link at the bottom where you can run the model. The sliders on the screen let you vary the solar constant, albedo and CO2. Radio buttons next to these select the linearization parameters. The calculated output appears in the yellow box.



IBdaMann wrote:
You clearly believe that the word "model" means "calculation."

Models are calculations.
...deleted irrelevant material...


No. Models are not any calculation at all. They are the structure calculations are performed around. They are fabrications, representing a simplified system. The calculations (the software running scenarios against the model) are not data. They are random numbers of type randU. They came out of the programmer's head, through the use of the algorithm installed in the program.

There is nothing about any model that replaces actual measurements.

* It is not possible to measure the temperature of the Earth.
* It is not possible to measure the precipitation of the Earth.
* It is not possible to measure the snow and ice content of Earth.
* It is not possible to measure the global atmospheric CO2 of Earth.
* It is not possible to measure the global sea level of Earth.
* It is not possible to measure the temperature of the United States, nor of any State.
* Statistical math is not capable of prediction.
* Probability math is not capable of prediction.
* Science is not capable of prediction. It must turn to a closed functional system, such as mathematics, to gain that power.

* You cannot create energy out of nothing.
* You cannot just change any equation in science on a whim.
* You cannot just discard the 1st or 2nd laws of thermodynamics, or the Stefan-Boltzmann law.

* You MUST define 'global warming' to have any theories about it. No theory of any kind is possible based on a void argument (internal consistency check).
* You cannot have any theory of science conflict with any other theory of science. One or both theories must be falsified (external consistency check).

Stefan-Boltzmann law: r = C * e * t^4
* There is no frequency term.
* There is an emissivity term, which is a measured constant. All bodies are subject to the Stefan-Boltzmann law.
* You MUST accurately know the temperature of a surface to measure it's emissivity.
VernerHornung wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Karl Marx proposed this particular form of it, and sold it to many leaders of the world, including both Mussolini, Hitler, FDR, ...

Then why did Joseph Goebbels publish a cartoon celebrating Karl Marx's 1843 emigration from Germany? Given Marx died, in England no less, before the others were more than tykes, I doubt he could have sold his ideas to any of the people you've listed.

But his writings didn't die. Neither did the movement he started in each of these countries.
VernerHornung wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Public education is communism.

Ah, now we see the problem. Without schools, we needn't worry about our children's minds being corrupted by things akin to science or history, and Mom can teach them their ABCs and 2+2s at home.

False dichotomy fallacy. You are ignoring privately run and community run schools.
VernerHornung wrote:
How blessed we are that the Puritans who established America's first public schools back in 1648 disagreed with that notion.

Goalpost fallacy. The Puritans used a community school system, not a public school system.

What's the difference? In a community school system, a community (such as a neighborhood) would build a school, hire the instructor(s), and pay for it themselves, in order to send their kids there. The community that used the school owned the school, not any government. No other community owned that school.

A public school system makes people that have no involvement in schools and communities other than the one the school is serving pay for the school. The government owns the school and hires and pays the instructors. That is communism.
VernerHornung wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
The Constitution of the United States never authorized the federal government this power.

Nor did it forbid cities and states to do so.

Correct.
VernerHornung wrote:
Dick Cheney graduated from the University of Wyoming if I recall.

Which receives federal money (illegally), and teaches according to federal (illegal) mandates.
There is very little of Wyoming left in the University of Wyoming.


The Parrot Killer
16-10-2019 08:52
VernerHornungProfile picture★☆☆☆☆
(133)
IBdaMann wrote:
If I had needed to go to that other different link, then you screwed up by posting the wrong link.

The second page is right on the sidebar. If you can't see it, an optometrist might be able to help.

IBdaMann wrote:
Nope. That's just your misunderstanding. You think a model is a computer program. Oh well.

The model, conceptually speaking, appears in the discussion on the two web pages I linked for you and in the equations which accompany that discussion. But you complained about the equations, calling them a mere "calculation." So I pointed out the Adobe Flash player version of the model so you could play with it. Do you need ball-and-stick molecules and BBs for the photons?

The CESM-2 contains modules for the barometric equations, radiative transfer equations, shallow convection, deep convection, vertical velocity, boundary layer turbulence, water content, liquid water potential temperature, stratospheric chemistry, aerosols, and cloud macrophysics and microphysics among other things.

If you don't understand the phenomena to be modeled, then get a PhD in meteorology or atmospheric physics and you'll have no trouble creating your own model implementation or using one off the shelf. Products of this kind are made for specialists in these fields, insiders most of whom rarely write for the public, and I'm not gonna deny that. Thousands of programmer-years went into CESM-2. The project solicits module code contributions from developers around the world; if interested, see

AMWG Developer's Guidelines
http://www.cesm.ucar.edu/working_groups/Atmosphere/developer-guidelines.html


Never try to solve an NP-complete problem on your own with pencil & paper.
16-10-2019 15:27
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5026)
VernerHornung wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
If I had needed to go to that other different link, then you screwed up by posting the wrong link.

The second page is right on the sidebar. If you can't see it, an optometrist might be able to help.

If I'm the person you are trying to convince then you have failed. You need to post the correct link.

If I'm the professor grading your thesis then you fail. You need to post the correct link.

You have failed. You had only one job ... to post the correct link and you blew it. How hard is it to provide the correct link? If you have difficulty performing that task then remedial education might help.

VernerHornung wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
Nope. That's just your misunderstanding. You think a model is a computer program. Oh well.

The model, conceptually speaking, appears in the discussion on the two web pages I linked for you and in the equations which accompany that discussion.

Then just post the model here in Climate-Debate. Done.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
16-10-2019 19:29
Amanbir Grewal
☆☆☆☆☆
(13)
* It is not possible to measure the temperature of the Earth.


No it's not.

one interesting point, the limit of temperature rise measured in degrees is an AVERAGE of all temperature changes across the world. For example, temperatures may fall in Australia by 2 degrees and rise by 4 degrees in Sweden, giving us a 'Net' rise of 2 degrees. Well that's how they do the final calculations for the 'Global Rise in Temperatures' measure in degrees, which is usually to be below 2 or 3 degrees If I remember anything.

And that's why Australia does not care about Climate Changes!!!!

So maybe it's that temperatures are to rise at some places and fall at the others making Global Warming and Global Cooling at the same time.

Geography wise I think the temperatures are getting thrown off track into the extreme rates, hooter than hot and cooler than cool.

Maybe that's why they use the term Climate Change more than Global Warming, as in Total changes.

More scary stuff, it is not the temperatures or the rising sea levels because of it that cause the troubles. Its meant to rainfall and storm 9 fold times making flood damages and there should be famines because crops do not grow well at some places as they are very sensitive to 34 degree photosynthesis. But also, some Arabs report higher dates fruit outputs as their temperatures get closer to wanted temperatures for growing Dates and they can get rid of artificial heating techniques used at current lower night time temperatures.


Air Conditioning Efficiency for one is to get smashed making them useless. like that darned AC do not work anymore. AC firms be adapting to that but the coolants are fixed material and we do not have newer coolant technology.

You know AC don't work moment it goes up a few degrees outside!!!!


Landscape changes to New England, USA are bad at slighter warmer climes. Real Estate situations in New Haven, Hampshire and Hamptons is not looking good. Acrenut Leaves are dried brown earlier than fall. Movie locations have to shift into Canada then to portray Wally Wilbur accurately.


Higher population means higher growth demand and no Environment Checks!!!!!

Analogy: Fuel Mercedes getting bigger by the ex-showroom day and you're trying to slow drive that cc engine on a highway.
Edited on 16-10-2019 19:59
16-10-2019 22:58
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
VernerHornung wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
If I had needed to go to that other different link, then you screwed up by posting the wrong link.

The second page is right on the sidebar. If you can't see it, an optometrist might be able to help.

Using the arguments of others as if they were own is summarily dismissed. Learn to think for yourself. The people you are quoting are not here.
VernerHornung wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
Nope. That's just your misunderstanding. You think a model is a computer program. Oh well.

The model, conceptually speaking, appears in the discussion on the two web pages I linked for you and in the equations which accompany that discussion. But you complained about the equations, calling them a mere "calculation." So I pointed out the Adobe Flash player version of the model so you could play with it. Do you need ball-and-stick molecules and BBs for the photons?

Photons do not look like BBs, they don't act like BBs, they don't bounce like BBs, and they don't have the mass of BBs. False equivalence fallacy.
VernerHornung wrote:
The CESM-2 contains modules for the barometric equations, radiative transfer equations, shallow convection, deep convection, vertical velocity, boundary layer turbulence, water content, liquid water potential temperature, stratospheric chemistry, aerosols, and cloud macrophysics and microphysics among other things.

Every single one of these modules is a modifier for what amounts to be a random number generator. Computer models are not data. Argument from randU fallacy.
VernerHornung wrote:
If you don't understand the phenomena to be modeled, then get a PhD in meteorology or atmospheric physics and you'll have no trouble creating your own model implementation or using one off the shelf.

No computer cannot simulate anything. They only print out the numbers their programmers tell them to print out. What is called a computer 'simulation' is simply another word for a computer game.
VernerHornung wrote:
Products of this kind are made for specialists in these fields,
Irrelevant.
VernerHornung wrote:
insiders most of whom rarely write for the public, and I'm not gonna deny that.
Irrelevant.
VernerHornung wrote:
Thousands of programmer-years went into CESM-2.
Irrelevant. It makes no difference. Computer programs only print the numbers they are told to print out, no matter how many programmers it took to do it. Argument from randU fallacy.
VernerHornung wrote:
The project solicits module code contributions from developers around the world; if interested, see

AMWG Developer's Guidelines

Irrelevant. Open source or closed source makes no difference.

Computers are not God. The programs they run are not God. Do not treat them as authoritative references of anything.

Computers only spit out the numbers their programmers tell them to spit out. They are not a measurement. They are not data. They are random numbers being used as 'data' by people like you.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 16-10-2019 22:59
16-10-2019 23:23
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
Amanbir Grewal wrote:
* It is not possible to measure the temperature of the Earth.


No it's not.

one interesting point, the limit of temperature rise measured in degrees is an AVERAGE of all temperature changes across the world. For example, temperatures may fall in Australia by 2 degrees and rise by 4 degrees in Sweden, giving us a 'Net' rise of 2 degrees. Well that's how they do the final calculations for the 'Global Rise in Temperatures' measure in degrees, which is usually to be below 2 or 3 degrees If I remember anything.

* You cannot treat two different systems as if they are the same system. False equivalence fallacy. Why Earth's temperatures be limited?
Amanbir Grewal wrote:
And that's why Australia does not care about Climate Changes!!!!

Define 'climate change'.
Amanbir Grewal wrote:
So maybe it's that temperatures are to rise at some places and fall at the others making Global Warming and Global Cooling at the same time.

There is only one globe.
Amanbir Grewal wrote:
Geography wise I think the temperatures are getting thrown off track into the extreme rates, hooter than hot and cooler than cool.

Paradoxes. Which is it, dude?
Amanbir Grewal wrote:
Maybe that's why they use the term Climate Change more than Global Warming, as in Total changes.

Define 'climate change'. Define 'global warming'.
Amanbir Grewal wrote:
More scary stuff, it is not the temperatures or the rising sea levels because of it that cause the troubles.

* It is not possible to measure the global sea level.
Amanbir Grewal wrote:
Its meant to rainfall and storm 9 fold times making flood damages

* It is not possible to measure global precipitation.
Amanbir Grewal wrote:
and there should be famines because crops do not grow well at some places as they are very sensitive to 34 degree photosynthesis.

Photosynthesis has no temperature. Plants are basically insensitive to temperature. Some plants can handle recover from freeze damage better than others, that's all.
Amanbir Grewal wrote:
But also, some Arabs report higher dates fruit outputs as their temperatures get closer to wanted temperatures for growing Dates and they can get rid of artificial heating techniques used at current lower night time temperatures.

Plants are insensitive to temperature. They are only sensitive to light, and the availability of nutrients.
Amanbir Grewal wrote:
Air Conditioning Efficiency for one is to get smashed making them useless.

How do you smash a number? How does smashing any number make AC useless?
Amanbir Grewal wrote:
like that darned AC do not work anymore.

Fix it.
Amanbir Grewal wrote:
AC firms be adapting to that but the coolants are fixed material

They use the same coolants as always.
Amanbir Grewal wrote:
and we do not have newer coolant technology.

Nope. Same coolants as always.
Amanbir Grewal wrote:
You know AC don't work moment it goes up a few degrees outside!!!!

Fix it.
Amanbir Grewal wrote:
Landscape changes to New England, USA are bad at slighter warmer climes.

Plants are insensitive to temperature.
Amanbir Grewal wrote:
Real Estate situations in New Haven, Hampshire and Hamptons is not looking good.

Irrelevant.
Amanbir Grewal wrote:
Acrenut Leaves are dried brown earlier than fall.

Normal.
Amanbir Grewal wrote:
Movie locations have to shift into Canada then to portray Wally Wilbur accurately.

No, because it's cheaper to film in Canada. Movies are not looking for accuracy or reality.
* They build an elementary school just so they can blow it up.
* They make airplanes explode in giant fireballs if they touch the ground at anything besides a paved runway at an airport, even when said airplane is out of gas.
* They blow up so many cars it puts the Ford Pinto to shame.
* They built a New England town on an island here in the Pacific Northwest to film an entire movie in (about New England witches).
* They build entire towns out in the desert 4/5ths size so normal looking guys look like big men of the old west.
* They use green screen mattes and CGI to fill in the rest.

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
Higher population means higher growth demand and no Environment Checks!!!!!

People are not just liabilities. They are assets too. There are more people to do environmental checks.
Amanbir Grewal wrote:
Analogy: Fuel Mercedes getting bigger by the ex-showroom day and you're trying to slow drive that cc engine on a highway.

Car engines are not built to produce speed. They are built to produce power.


The Parrot Killer
16-10-2019 23:37
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5026)
Into the Night wrote:There is only one globe.




.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
16-10-2019 23:51
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
IBdaMann wrote:
Into the Night wrote:There is only one globe.




.


Nice contextomy.

Each of these also have a global temperature, and an atmosphere around them.

Of course, we know that the Earth isn't held up by a plastic stand. It's held up by Atlas.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 16-10-2019 23:52
17-10-2019 19:00
VernerHornungProfile picture★☆☆☆☆
(133)
IBdaMann wrote:
If I'm the professor grading your thesis...

But alack & alas, you're not the professor and forum posts aren't theses.

Into the Night wrote:
Photons do not look like BBs, they don't act like BBs.

And water molecules don't look like or act like Tinker-Toy constructions. The young'uns in chem labs use ball and stick models nevertheless—because they do show the bond angles accurately. A drug developer may want to know whether a functional group in that virus's coat will stick out where the drug can attack it, and the model helps him or her visualize it.

Into the Night wrote:
Computer models are not data.

Who said they were? You plug your data for initial state and boundary conditions into the model, run it, and collect the final state as output. The final state is what the model predicts will follow from the initial state you gave it. Whether the model output represents what will happen in the real world is another story, upon which the success of your model will turn.

Into the Night wrote:
Plants are basically insensitive to temperature. Some plants can handle recover from freeze damage better than others...

Now this beauty from your growing repertoire of self-contradiction! If plants are insensitive to temperature, then all of them will recover from frost damage, and you'll be able to grow poinsettias in planter boxes outdoors at Vostok. Why, you could even dip them in liquid nitrogen and they'd still be ready for Christmas because, you see, they're plants, and plants are insensitive to temperature.

Into the Night wrote:
They blow up so many cars it puts the Ford Pinto to shame.

Lest readers start thinking I'm the Grinch, I gotta second your opinion here. Hollywood's flaming cars are divorced from reality & engineering model alike.


Never try to solve an NP-complete problem on your own with pencil & paper.
Edited on 17-10-2019 19:05
17-10-2019 23:06
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
VernerHornung wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
If I'm the professor grading your thesis...

But alack & alas, you're not the professor and forum posts aren't theses.

Irrelevance fallacy. Contextomy fallacy. He said IF he was your professor and IF your post was a thesis, he would fail it. I agree with his assessment.
VernerHornung wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Photons do not look like BBs, they don't act like BBs.

And water molecules don't look like or act like Tinker-Toy constructions. The young'uns in chem labs use ball and stick models nevertheless—because they do show the bond angles accurately.

No, they don't. Ball and stick models are copying bond behavior that has been observed in nature. That is all. They do not predict it. Water does not look like the stick figure. The molecule is actually rather round, but the positive charges from the hydrogen tend to one side due to the the electrostatic forces on the electrons in the oxygen atom, giving the positions of the atoms the characteristic 'V' shape.
VernerHornung wrote:
A drug developer may want to know whether a functional group in that virus's coat will stick out where the drug can attack it, and the model helps him or her visualize it.

Such a model is also a theory. Only a falsifiable test can determine if the model and theory is wrong.
VernerHornung wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Computer models are not data.

Who said they were?

You did.
VernerHornung wrote:
You plug your data for initial state and boundary conditions into the model, run it, and collect the final state as output. The final state is what the model predicts will follow from the initial state you gave it.

You are saying it again.
VernerHornung wrote:
Whether the model output represents what will happen in the real world is another story, upon which the success of your model will turn.

Computer models are not data.
VernerHornung wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Plants are basically insensitive to temperature. Some plants can handle recover from freeze damage better than others...

Now this beauty from your growing repertoire of self-contradiction! If plants are insensitive to temperature, then all of them will recover from frost damage,

No contradiction. Frost damage kills plant cells. Some plants are fast growing, and so can recover more easily, or use dead cells as insulation to protect the live ones.

Plants are insensitive to temperature. They are sensitive to light.
VernerHornung wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
They blow up so many cars it puts the Ford Pinto to shame.

Lest readers start thinking I'm the Grinch, I gotta second your opinion here. Hollywood's flaming cars are divorced from reality & engineering model alike.

WRONG. Blowing up a car is engineering. All pyrotechnics are engineering (and chemistry!). Every staged explosion, fireworks show, every match you light, and every detonation in a war or mining operation is engineering.

I blew up a car for a film crew just this last August (pyrotechnicians take great care in maintaining safety while creating effects such as this). One of the rear doors flew a good 50 feet. The fireball we rigged for the trunk was particularly effective. For that we used a shell (which I built for the purpose) rigged with an electric match and submerged in a BBQ like container placed in the trunk and filled with gasoline. The whole thing was fired electronically.

Yes...chemical engineering to make powder for the shells in the first place, mechanical engineering to build the shells and place them correctly for the effect we wanted, electrical and electronics engineering for the firing system, and pyroengineering to bring it all together in a safe manner.

Innocent cars were indeed harmed by the filming of this effect.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 17-10-2019 23:07
18-10-2019 00:45
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1394)
Into the Night wrote:
Climate has no temperature.
Climate simply means weather long term and temperature is the most important, and certainly quantifiable part of weather.

Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Fascism is an economic system of government...
You just love making up your own definitions.

I didn't make up that definition. Mussolini did.
Mussolini doesn't get to define it either sorry. You need to understand where the definition of words come from in general. You don't get to pick your personal choice and call it THE definition. ultranationalism is part of the meaning of fascist as the word is defined in English, by those using the word.
"Most dictionary-makers have billions of citations, and the context from those citations is used to create definitions. "That means the people who actually determine what a word means are the people who use it, not the people who collect and record it," Stamper said."(link

Into the Night wrote:She's a globalist, just like Hitler, just like Stalin, just like Mussolini.
None of those where "globalists" and all of them were ultranationalists.


"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is ever valid for them
18-10-2019 01:53
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5026)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Climate has no temperature.
Climate simply means weather long term and temperature is the most important, and certainly quantifiable part of weather.

Utterly stupid. You admit that there is no such thing as "long term weather." You acknowledge that weather is constantly changing, continuously, persistently. Is your intention to define "Climate" as something that does not exist? If so then we agree and I have nothing to add.

Into the Night wrote: Mussolini doesn't get to define it either sorry.

... but I bet that YOU DO, right? I bet that you are going to pretend to be "those who define the word in English."

I have bad news for you ... nationalism is not required for fascism. All one needs to realize is that the definition you are purporting is the Wikipedia definition which instantly renders it INCORRECT and therefore summarily dismissed.

If we completely discount you, I think the entirety of the English-speaking world understands fascism to be a totalitarian, single-party state, e.g. China, California, Cuba, Cuenezuela and other states that begin with the letter "C."


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
18-10-2019 05:04
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Climate has no temperature.
Climate simply means weather long term and temperature is the most important, and certainly quantifiable part of weather.

Nope. Climate is a subjective word, such as 'desert climate', or 'marine climate'. It has no temperature. There is no global climate. If you want to talk about the weather, talk about the weather. If you want to talk about temperature, say 'temperature'. It's really very simple.
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Fascism is an economic system of government...
You just love making up your own definitions.

I didn't make up that definition. Mussolini did.
Mussolini doesn't get to define it either sorry.

Yes he does. The word was coined by him.
tmiddles wrote:
You need to understand where the definition of words come from in general.

I do. Etymology is a hobby of mine.
tmiddles wrote:
You don't get to pick your personal choice and call it THE definition.

I'm not. Etymology is a hobby of mine.
tmiddles wrote:
ultranationalism is part of the meaning of fascist as the word is defined in English, by those using the word.

Nope. Not part of fascism.
tmiddles wrote:
"Most dictionary-makers have billions of citations, and the context from those citations is used to create definitions. "That means the people who actually determine what a word means are the people who use it, not the people who collect and record it," Stamper said."(link

No dictionary defines any word.
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:She's a globalist, just like Hitler, just like Stalin, just like Mussolini.
None of those where "globalists" and all of them were ultranationalists.

No, they weren't. Hitler wanted to take over the world. So did Mussolini. So did Stalin. That's globalism. Fortunately, none of them were successful.


The Parrot Killer
18-10-2019 15:35
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1394)
IBdaMann wrote:You admit that there is no such thing as "long term weather." You acknowledge that weather is constantly changing,
Almost everything is constantly changing. The Earth orbits the sun and just won't sit still dammit!!! The position of the Earth is unknown!! Call ITN it's another unkownable get the stamp out! Call back the astronauts it's hopeless.

You just play games IBD. You won't even say how to measure the temperature of ANYTHING, not even a block of steel in the lab.

IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote: ...how do you measure the temperature of a block of steel on a hot plate? Is that also unknowable?
Hey, MSM, what are you claiming is unknowable?...
There never was an answer. To anything. In 5 years. Waste o' space

IBdaMann wrote:I have bad news for you ... nationalism is not required for fascism.
Yes it is. There are a lot of forms of authoritarian rule. Fascism is just one and yes ultranationalism is an ingredient. Like Trumps boys chanting Blood and Soil, that's fascism.

Words are defined by their use. That's it.

Into the Night wrote:
Climate has no temperature.
Climate is weather, and yes temperature is part of weather. That's like saying "Nutritional Information" doesn't include calories. Just a waste of time to argue it as it changes nothing.

Into the Night wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
"Most dictionary-makers have billions of citations, and the context from those citations is used to create definitions. "That means the people who actually determine what a word means are the people who use it, not the people who collect and record it," Stamper said."(link

No dictionary defines any word.
That's what is says champ. Dictionaries are simply the stenographers taking notes on how people use words. You can make a word mean something else if you really really want to but you'll need a whole lot of friends, large companies, basically a lot of votes for that meaning, to join you. But how sick would that be if you could redefine a word!

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sick
sick adjective
\ ˈsik \
...outstandingly or amazingly good or impressive

"Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again." - Karl Popper
ITN/IBD Fraud exposed:  The 2nd LTD add on claiming radiance from cooler bodies can't be absorbed Max Planck debunks, they can't explain:net-thermal-radiation-you-in-a-room-as-a-reference & Proof: no data is ever valid for them
18-10-2019 16:23
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5026)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:You admit that there is no such thing as "long term weather." You acknowledge that weather is constantly changing,
Almost everything is constantly changing.

Yes, almost everything. "Climate" is something that doesn't change. Religious deities never change either.

tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:I have bad news for you ... nationalism is not required for fascism.
Yes it is.

Nope. Just single-party authoritarian rule. No nationalism need be involved. You have to go with how the words are properly used.

.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
18-10-2019 21:10
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9878)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:You admit that there is no such thing as "long term weather." You acknowledge that weather is constantly changing,
Almost everything is constantly changing. The Earth orbits the sun and just won't sit still dammit!!! The position of the Earth is unknown!!

It is known for any point in time. It's also predictable for any point in time (assuming no changes to its orbit), using Kepler's laws. To change the orbit of any planet, energy is required.
tmiddles wrote:
Call ITN it's another unkownable get the stamp out! Call back the astronauts it's hopeless.

Again, you are making false equivalencies. The position of Earth at any point in time is knowable. The temperature of the Earth at any point in time is not.
tmiddles wrote:
You just play games IBD.

No, that would be you.
tmiddles wrote:
You won't even say how to measure the temperature of ANYTHING, not even a block of steel in the lab.

RQAA. He already has. So have I.
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
tmiddles wrote: ...how do you measure the temperature of a block of steel on a hot plate? Is that also unknowable?
Hey, MSM, what are you claiming is unknowable?...
There never was an answer. To anything. In 5 years. Waste o' space

RQAA. RDCF.
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:I have bad news for you ... nationalism is not required for fascism.
Yes it is. There are a lot of forms of authoritarian rule. Fascism is just one and yes ultranationalism is an ingredient. Like Trumps boys chanting Blood and Soil, that's fascism.

WRONG. Mussolini, Hitler, and Stalin wanted to control the world. That is not nationalism. That's globalism. Stalin was a communist, but Mussolini and Hitler were fascists, just a step on the road to communism.

Communism (and fascism as well) is about control. It is about controlling others by force. It is about expanding that control as far as it can, globally, if possible. That is not nationalism. That is globalism.
tmiddles wrote:
Words are defined by their use. That's it.

WRONG. Words are each coined by an individual. This is what etymology is all about...the origins of words. You just don't get to redefine them on a whim. This is YOUR problem, not mine.

To define words like 'science', or 'religion', the definition must be made using philosophical arguments. You have not done so. You just want to redefine words willy-nilly.

You are no longer speaking English. You are speaking Liberal. This language looks like English, but it uses different meanings for words and uses many words with no meanings at all.

Fascism is a form of socialism. It is just a step on the way to communism. It is not nationalist. Like communism, it is globalist. They are both 'left'. It is the position of the Democrats and the Socialists. It is based on theft of wealth. It cannot create wealth.

Only capitalism can create wealth.

tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
Climate has no temperature.
Climate is weather,
tmiddles wrote:
and yes temperature is part of weather.
[quote]tmiddles wrote:
That's like saying "Nutritional Information" doesn't include calories.
[quote]tmiddles wrote:
Just a waste of time to argue it as it changes nothing.

[quote]tmiddles wrote:
[quote]Into the Night wrote:
[quote]tmiddles wrote:
"Most dictionary-makers have billions of citations, and the context from those citations is used to create definitions. "That means the people who actually determine what a word means are the people who use it, not the people who collect and record it," Stamper said."(link

No dictionary defines any word.
That's what is says champ. Dictionaries are simply the stenographers taking notes on how people use words.
tmiddles wrote:
You can make a word mean something else if you really really want to
[quote]tmiddles wrote:
but you'll need a whole lot of friends, large companies, basically a lot of votes for that meaning, to join you.
[quote]tmiddles wrote:
But how sick would that be if you could redefine a word!



The Parrot Killer
27-10-2019 17:56
Amanbir Grewal
☆☆☆☆☆
(13)
first ye make a shipp-a. then ye take it to Briton, the island. they eat grass, they cannot cook that for no goat meat they have. thus, we rule them. duncans, malcolms, they all know it. so do I.

next para. they blew him up, round that corner, I saw the explosion me self. they had started makin' these special incendiaries before the century belonged to shaw and his men, who was makin' beautiful poetry for beautiful girls.

time swap. Edwards askin his for soup. then bedtime. he wake up a new man. now do he?

now they started heatin it up all over again.

what?

the planet, what else.

clichéd.

French? look missy, that all we knew about the horsemen before we could find them and kill 'em all. i'm in a hat and all but no mistake me for a morgan and his plans. it hides a neat little pate. I use it for thinking. and purposes.

be gone be gone little witch. or cops don't like ye messin' up this hood and the game. projects rockets. thus the following of the booker T. all free men all free men.

you come to the right place. I guess I do know something about photosynthesis. if you plant more trees, they restore sanity. they drink that shit right up at night. the carbon cycle is being disturbed.

now what is a cycle?
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