Population Change and Demography - the malthusian rate.

Amanbir Grewal wrote: ... they drink that shit right up at night. the carbon cycle is being disturbed.

now what is a cycle?

VernerHornung wrote:

tmiddles wrote:
The thing that exposes every doom and gloom environmental alarmist for being uninformed is that not only do they not discuss it they are largely ignorant of it or convinced its not true. I think it's the single biggest story of the last 100 years.

We can understand Greta's only 16 and on her first environmental fad. I'm old enough to have witnessed four of them come and three leave the stage. Curious how you can't even find a copy of The Population Bomb (Paul Ehrlich) anymore. Pesticides morphed from birds with soft-shelled eggs to GMO Frankenfoods on the margin and WWIII burst when the Wall fell and they closed the test sites. All are still serious issues, but none mean instant doom.

We've another tale of woe, just the substance is now CO2. At least Greta has enough warning to sail the Atlantic on tour. We Cold War young'uns expected to have minutes and I still rate nuclear weapons a graver threat to the globe than climate change. The faddism scatters our approach to problems, leading to a huge UN bureaucracy worrying over CO2 amid seeming unconcern with the fact that Trump's throwing the arms control treaties out the window. Then we have those cross-fiddles, Antinukes denying us a carbon-free, on-demand power source while they condemn Poland for burning coal.

We need a balance. Yes, fossil fuels will have to be curbed lest production declines choke our economy or CO2 accumulate to the point a real climate adversity ensues. Yet IPCC doesn't even have energy on its plate. There's a mix of universal health care, education, food security, women, Indigenous people and access to energy, the last of which will actually cause more CO2. These are desirable social goods in poor countries—I'm not stone-hearted about human needs—but they're not what IPCC should be focused on, which is research on how to develop a cleaner power picture.

tmiddles wrote:

VernerHornung wrote:...environmental fad...Pesticides morphed from birds with soft-shelled eggs to GMO Frankenfoods...

Yeah there is a definite flavor of the month pattern. My theory is that humans are wired for a dragon slayer mentality. The BIG FOE is always described with equal gravity it seems and for all political groups. Terrorism, Communism, Environmentalism, Social Justice, Heresy, there's always something to hang your helmet on.

Into the Night wrote:

tmiddles wrote: Almost everything is constantly changing. The Earth orbits the sun and just won't sit still dammit!!! The position of the Earth is unknown!!

It is known for any point in time.

Into the Night wrote:The position of Earth at any point in time is knowable. The temperature of the Earth at any point in time is not.

tmiddles wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

tmiddles wrote: Almost everything is constantly changing. The Earth orbits the sun and just won't sit still dammit!!! The position of the Earth is unknown!!

It is known for any point in time.

Yes we can gather data and assume there are not surprises and come up with a rough idea. JUST LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE.

tmiddles wrote:

Into the Night wrote:The position of Earth at any point in time is knowable. The temperature of the Earth at any point in time is not.

Yes you refuse to explain how the temperature of ANYTHING is knowable.
PROOF of how you run away:

Into the Night wrote:

[b]tmiddles wrote:
...how do you measure the temperature of a block of steel on a hot plate? Is that also unknowable?

RDCF. RQAA.

Into the Night wrote:
It is not possible to measure the temperature ....

tmiddles wrote:
PROOF of how you run away:

Into the Night wrote:

[b]tmiddles wrote:
...how do you measure the temperature of a block of steel on a hot plate? Is that also unknowable?

RDCF. RQAA.

I have not run away. I am still here.

Amanbir Grewal wrote:...we've got a population problem that we're dealing with b'cuz of Mr. Malthus.....

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
which brings me back to my original question......how do we keep the climate from changing

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
when we've got a population problem that we're dealing with b'cuz of Mr. Malthus.

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
problem upon a problem!!! deep problem!

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
what if I now make matters even worse by saying that urban landscapes or cities cause long-term health effects that can be irreversible, in other words, BAD EVOLUTION. and urbanization itself cannot be reversed by living in villages!!!!

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
add to that the rise of cheap crime and theft in heavily populated cities where one can disappear easily.

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
then come hedge funds and banking crises. the open looting of money by greed and its followers.

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
we need that money and safety to fight our challenges.

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
I don't have anything left for climate change, as you can see.

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
climate change must wait for its turn in the greater scheme of things.

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
heavy planning addresses heavy problems first.

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
that is one challenge climate change faces.

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
it is just not ready to be solved yet.

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
Maslowean hierarchies compel man to pursue other games in management theory.

this is enough to douse your excitement in this post. if you get more notions, creative or otherwise, i'll try and elaborate on my premise.

cheers and hurrays

let climate change work for you!! call me at: #JoeisHummered.

tmiddles wrote:

Into the Night wrote:
It is not possible to measure the temperature ....

tmiddles wrote:
PROOF of how you run away:

Into the Night wrote:

[b]tmiddles wrote:
...how do you measure the temperature of a block of steel on a hot plate? Is that also unknowable?

RDCF. RQAA.

I have not run away. I am still here.

So how is the temperature of ANYTHING determined. Pick one thing. How about the temperature of Denver Colorado on any particular day? Unknowable?

tmiddles wrote:
Temperature determination and the reality of temperature ALWAYS involves a range, never ever a precise known value. You can take multiple measurements to narrow the range of possibilities but that's it.

Into the Night wrote:

tmiddles wrote:
Temperature determination and the reality of temperature ALWAYS involves a range, ...

Nope. It does not involve a range at all.

tmiddles wrote: Yes we can gather data and assume there are not surprises and come up with a rough idea. JUST LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE.

GasGuzzler wrote:

tmiddles wrote: Yes we can gather data and assume there are not surprises and come up with a rough idea. JUST LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE.

I ASSUME you are you referring to the ROUGH IDEA that the global temp is rising at PRECISELY 0.1 degree every 10 YEARS?!

GasGuzzler wrote:

tmiddles wrote: Yes we can gather data and assume there are not surprises and come up with a rough idea. JUST LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE.

I ASSUME you are you referring to the ROUGH IDEA that the global temp is rising at PRECISELY 0.1 degree every 10 YEARS?!

IBdaMann wrote:margin of error would you assign to that "rough idea"? T

IBdaMann wrote:...omit any mention of margin of error. It would be utterly intolerable to admit that the earth could be cooling when you are insisting that the earth is warming.

tmiddles wrote:

GasGuzzler wrote:

tmiddles wrote: Yes we can gather data and assume there are not surprises and come up with a rough idea. JUST LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE.

I ASSUME you are you referring to the ROUGH IDEA that the global temp is rising at PRECISELY 0.1 degree every 10 YEARS?!

Nope. We aren't there yet at all GG. I was talking about finding the temperature of a block of steel in the lab, your body, your living room, the City of Denver at 2pm tomorrow.

EVERY DETERMINATION OF TEMPERATURE IS ROUGH

You can only put so many zeros behind an answer before you're lying to yourself.

It is 70 C?
70.0 C ?
70.0000000 C ? Really that exact?

tmiddles wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:margin of error would you assign to that "rough idea"? T

My understanding is that you have two dimensions to "ERROR" in measurement:
Instrumental and Systematic

Instrumental: A modern thermometer has an error range, or range of precision, that is not perfect. In the 1800 s they were much much rougher.

tmiddles wrote:
Systematic: Most of the measurement we have historically are in cities which are atypical for the planet. Cloud cover in particular totally throws off measurements in one location from what they would be planet wide. I think Pat Franks did good work explaining this.

tmiddles wrote:
Now BOTH OF THESE APPLY TO A BLOCK OF STEEL IN THE LAB TOO!!!

tmiddles wrote:
Yep
The variance may be much smaller but you still have the limitations of you thermometer, and also systematic error. You can't measure every molecule in the block. You will make mistakes in you calculations. That's just real life.

tmiddles wrote:
A more useful example is determining the temperature in the city where you live. Do you really have no idea at all? Could it be anything? Of course not. You are able to determine a range.

tmiddles wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:...omit any mention of margin of error. It would be utterly intolerable to admit that the earth could be cooling when you are insisting that the earth is warming.

I would agree the temptation to misrepresent statistics is indulged with most hot button issues.

tmiddles wrote:
If you use this as an excuse to stop trying to find the truth, then you just wanted to not try.

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
and so the Government can do the following things to help us.

1. Environmental protection

2. Solar Farms

3. Wind Mills

4. Nuclear Plants

5. Dams

6. Industrial Regulation (control devices)


all other ideas are a sheer waste like stop driving your own car!! omg!

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
oligarchic governments work for some if they cannot be representative democracies.

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
market opportunities will need market support schemes and a new set of business rules. that means time if not extra budgets.

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
if this is a public solution, it'll have a public rate of return. if this is a market solution, it'll need the market efforts and gruel.

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
free spirited individualism and libertarian ideals makes for a third approach.

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
on a pie chart, I still put my money on heavy public expenditure.

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
market solutions versus public projects can be compared for costs.

productive use of carbon dioxide from the air has not been understood.

what is the value of that gas if it is to be used in any way.

it is used in coke bottles and for making aerated drinks!!

does it have any other usage?

GasGuzzler wrote:

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
market solutions versus public projects can be compared for costs.

productive use of carbon dioxide from the air has not been understood.

what is the value of that gas if it is to be used in any way.

it is used in coke bottles and for making aerated drinks!!

does it have any other usage?

Refrigerant, lasers, beer/wine, cement, fire extinguishers to name just a few.

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
battery operated vehicles are possible but they will cut traffic to minimum, which is good as less traffic means less congestion.

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
cars are possible if we use them on some sort of chemical power that is recharged at night, we understand that the chemical we use is very limited in its availability.

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
rainfall patterns are serious.

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
water cycle may depend on atmospheric temperature which depends on the carbon cycle.

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
climate change (external effect) starts pushing on every geographical process from the inside, or endogenous changes.

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
rise and fall of a parameter causes such and such. changes to this parameter, in any direction, makes the process alterable at multiple sub-points giving a wholly different process that has to be understood all over again.

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
rainfall patterns give local vegetation patterns and crop ability. crops and plants give local fauna and that gives social anthropological development, or the development of intelligence in human societies required to understand the local environ.

GasGuzzler wrote:

Amanbir Grewal wrote:does it have any other usage?

Refrigerant, lasers, beer/wine, cement, fire extinguishers to name just a few.

GasGuzzler wrote:

Amanbir Grewal wrote:
market solutions versus public projects can be compared for costs.

productive use of carbon dioxide from the air has not been understood.

what is the value of that gas if it is to be used in any way.

it is used in coke bottles and for making aerated drinks!!

does it have any other usage?

Refrigerant, lasers, beer/wine, cement, fire extinguishers to name just a few.

keepit wrote:
ITN,
I'd rather ignore you but what about an aviation weather report? Would you believe the temp on that?

keepit wrote:
I bet your answer won't be a straight forward yes or no.

keepit wrote:
ITN,
Thanks for a good answer although i don't particularly need flying lessons, not at my age 77.

Into the Night wrote:

keepit wrote:
ITN,
Thanks for a good answer although i don't particularly need flying lessons, not at my age 77.

Heh. What I just described is not a flying lesson!
You specifically asked about airport weather stations.

Into the Night wrote:

keepit wrote:
ITN,
I'd rather ignore you but what about an aviation weather report? Would you believe the temp on that?

Yes. That sensor is mounted right on the runway, usually somewhere near the center of the airport. It's good enough to indicate likely temperatures at either approach end of that runway. The conditions that would cause a steep temperature gradient are visible to the pilot anyway. In that case, temperature is not the problem. Shifting winds and violent weather is.

keepit wrote:
I bet your answer won't be a straight forward yes or no.

A qualified yes. Assuming the sensor of an automated station isn't screwed up, and assuming generally benign weather, they work just fine. If a meteorologist is at the field (such as fields with many commercial flights), then the system is not automated, and the observer can also report other weather conditions more accurately.

Temperatures at airports are not particularly important. What pilots are looking for is possible icing conditions on the runway, or a narrow spread between temperature and dewpoint (causing fog and low clouds, making landing there either difficult or impossible).

They are completely useless sensors for describing the temperature of anything even as close as just off the airport property, or even the temperature at the threshold of a runway under certain conditions.

James___ wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

keepit wrote:
ITN,
I'd rather ignore you but what about an aviation weather report? Would you believe the temp on that?

Yes. That sensor is mounted right on the runway, usually somewhere near the center of the airport. It's good enough to indicate likely temperatures at either approach end of that runway. The conditions that would cause a steep temperature gradient are visible to the pilot anyway. In that case, temperature is not the problem. Shifting winds and violent weather is.

keepit wrote:
I bet your answer won't be a straight forward yes or no.

A qualified yes. Assuming the sensor of an automated station isn't screwed up, and assuming generally benign weather, they work just fine. If a meteorologist is at the field (such as fields with many commercial flights), then the system is not automated, and the observer can also report other weather conditions more accurately.

Temperatures at airports are not particularly important. What pilots are looking for is possible icing conditions on the runway, or a narrow spread between temperature and dewpoint (causing fog and low clouds, making landing there either difficult or impossible).

They are completely useless sensors for describing the temperature of anything even as close as just off the airport property, or even the temperature at the threshold of a runway under certain conditions.

I need a big shovel for this. Doppler radar works quite well. It helps to predict conditions in advance. I've seen the local airport grounded and the weather reports were extremely accurate. People knew what to expect. They could prepare for it.
The weather that wasn't at the airport came from somewhere. Your observations do not allow for weather patterns.
It's funny how much you remind me of my American half brother.

keepit wrote:
Just a figure of speech.

GasGuzzler wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

keepit wrote:
ITN,
Thanks for a good answer although i don't particularly need flying lessons, not at my age 77.

Heh. What I just described is not a flying lesson!
You specifically asked about airport weather stations.

I happen to appreciate flight details. Although I'll never be a pilot, I find flight and air traffic fascinating. I always enjoy it when the topic swerves in that direction. Also a huge asset to this forum is ITN with not only his flight knowledge but cockpit experience....some of which sounds more like a thriller flick than just some dude from the Pacific NW farting around in a Cesna.

Thanks ITN!

Into the Night wrote:

GasGuzzler wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

keepit wrote:
ITN,
Thanks for a good answer although i don't particularly need flying lessons, not at my age 77.

Heh. What I just described is not a flying lesson!
You specifically asked about airport weather stations.

I happen to appreciate flight details. Although I'll never be a pilot, I find flight and air traffic fascinating. I always enjoy it when the topic swerves in that direction. Also a huge asset to this forum is ITN with not only his flight knowledge but cockpit experience....some of which sounds more like a thriller flick than just some dude from the Pacific NW farting around in a Cesna.

Thanks ITN!

Anytime. Though much of the time I'm just some dude farting around in a Cessna.

I like my little Cessna 150. It's cheap to fly land the Puget Sound region can be quite beautiful to fly around in. I've got it rigged for instrument flight (it's cloudy here much of the time!). I have taken it as far as Colorado and Arizona (it won an award at the Copperstate airshow there!).