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Ocean ph.



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Ocean ph.05-09-2019 23:46
olyz
★☆☆☆☆
(72)
From googling and some observations.

1) If there is CO2 in the air, ocean must be saturated and any additional won't make any difference. If ocean is saturated, it's ph must be 5.5. It isn't, it's a little above7.

2) Only small portion of dissolved CO2 forms carbonic acid.

3) Forget the reef. Carbonic acid reacts with sand which covers ocean floor, ie, a vast CO2 sink.

So it looks like there is a continuous process of CO2 (actually carbonic acid) reacting with the ocean floor and being absorbed from atmosphere.

4) What is reaction between sand (SiO2) and carbonic acid, ie, what are the products? Harmful? Why can't you find it googling?
06-09-2019 02:04
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4640)
olyz wrote:1) If there is CO2 in the air, ocean must be saturated and any additional won't make any difference.

Absurd. Does the ocean look carbonated to you?

olyz wrote: If ocean is saturated, it's ph must be 5.5. It isn't, it's a little above7.

Actually, sodas are much less than that.

From "The pH of beverages in the United States"
by Avanija Reddy, DMD, MPH; Don F. Norris, DMD; Stephanie
S. Momeni, MS, MBA; Belinda Waldo, DMD; John D. Ruby,
DMD, PhD


RC Cola 2.32
Coca-Cola Caffeine Free 2.34
Coca-Cola Classic 2.37
Coca-Cola Cherry 2.38
Pepsi 2.39
Pepsi Wild Cherry 2.41
Boylan's Sugar Cane Cola 2.54
Schweppes Tonic Water 2.54
Hansen's Cane Soda Pomegranate 2.55
Hansen's Cane Soda Mandarin Lime 2.57
Hansen's Cane Soda Kiwi Strawberry 2.59
Jolly Rancher Grape 2.6
Jones Green Apple Soda 2.65
Fanta Grape 2.67
Pepsi Max Ceasefire 2.7
Tab 2.72
Pepsi Max 2.74
Boylan's Black Cherry 2.76
Crush Grape 2.76
Grapico 2.77
Vault 2.77
Fanta Pineapple 2.79
Jones Orange & Cream Soda 2.79
Mr. Pibb Xtra 2.8
Vault Red Blitz 2.8
Jones Strawberry Lime 2.81
Canada Dry Ginger Ale 2.82
Fanta Orange 2.82
Fanta Strawberry 2.84
Crush Orange 2.87
Hawaiian Punch (Fruit Juicy Red) 2.87
Dr. Pepper 2.88
Jolly Rancher Orange 2.88
Jones M.F. Grape 2.89
Sunkist Peach 2.89
Vault X 2.89
Natural Brew Draft Root Beer 2.9
Boylan's Grape 2.91
Hansen's Cane Soda Cherry Vanilla Crème 2.91
Coca-Cola Cherry Zero 2.93
Jones Mandarin Orange 2.93
Coca-Cola Lime Diet 2.96
Coca-Cola Zero 2.96
7UP Cherry 2.98
Sunkist Orange 2.98
Jones Blue Bubblegum 2.99
Sunkist Strawberry 2.99
Izze Sparkling Pomegranate 3.01
Pepsi Diet 3.02
Sunkist Solar Fusion Tropical Mandarin 3.02
Mellow Yellow 3.03
Coca-Cola Caffeine Free Diet 3.04
Grapico Diet 3.04
Jones Cream Soda 3.04
Mountain Dew Voltage 3.05
Dr Pepper Cherry 3.06
Fresca 3.08
Sierra Mist 3.09
Coca-Cola Diet 3.1
Welch's Grape Soda 3.11
Ale 8-One 3.13
Sprite Zero 3.14
Mountain Dew Diet 3.18
Dr Pepper Diet 3.2
Boylan's Orange Soda 3.22
Mountain Dew (regular) 3.22
Buffalo Rock Ginger Ale 3.23
7UP 3.24
Sprite 3.24
Izze Sparkling Clementine 3.27
Mountain Dew Code Red 3.27
Izze Sparkling Blackberry 3.28
Sierra Mist 3.31
Dr Pepper Diet Cherry 3.32
Jones Red Apple 3.4
Jones Root Beer 3.42
Hansen's Cane Soda Black Cherry Diet 3.47
7UP Diet 3.48
Sunkist Diet 3.49
Boylan's Orange Cream 3.59
Hansen's Cane Soda Creamy Root Beer Diet 3.73
Boylan's Original Birch Beer 3.8
A&W Cream Soda 3.86
Mug Root Beer 3.88
Boylan's Diet Black Cherry 4
Boylan's Root Beer 4.01
Boylan's Diet Root Beer 4.05
IBC Root Beer 4.1
Barq's Root Beer 4.11
Boylan's Creme Soda 4.17
A&W Root Beer 4.27
Maine Root Root Beer 4.36
A&W Root Beer Diet 4.57
Canada Dry Club Soda 5.24


I believe a better estimate for the ocean's average pH to be around 8.2, but that's just me.


olyz wrote: 3) Forget the reef. Carbonic acid reacts with sand which covers ocean floor, ie, a vast CO2 sink.

The carbonic acide never gets to the bottom. The vast bulk of any carbonic acid arrives via rain. It's the water on top, and it evaporates releasing the CO2 back into the atmosphere. It never gets to the bottom floor. Any other carbonic acid that flows in from other sources mixes with the 8.2 pH and, due to the rather large quantity of ocean water, becomes 8.2 pH.

olyz wrote:So it looks like there is a continuous process of CO2 (actually carbonic acid) reacting with the ocean floor and being absorbed from atmosphere.

Nope. It never gets there.


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
06-09-2019 02:45
Into the Night
★★★★★
(9286)
olyz wrote:
From googling and some observations.

1) If there is CO2 in the air, ocean must be saturated and any additional won't make any difference. If ocean is saturated, it's ph must be 5.5. It isn't, it's a little above7.

CO2 does dissolve in water (think soda or beer). It also vents from water (think soda going flat).
olyz wrote:
2) Only small portion of dissolved CO2 forms carbonic acid.

True. About 1%. Carbonic acid also becomes dissolved CO2. But it also remains near the surface.
olyz wrote:
3) Forget the reef. Carbonic acid reacts with sand which covers ocean floor, ie, a vast CO2 sink.

Actually, it doesn't. Sand is a very large molecule and comes in many forms, all of which have strong bonds. Sand has to be in solution to react with carbonic acid. Silicon dioxide in solution tends to behave like a weak acid, so it won't react with carbonic acid anyway.
olyz wrote:
So it looks like there is a continuous process of CO2 (actually carbonic acid) reacting with the ocean floor and being absorbed from atmosphere.

Nope. Doesn't really do much of anything. All that alkaline water buffers it.
olyz wrote:
4) What is reaction between sand (SiO2) and carbonic acid, ie, what are the products? Harmful? Why can't you find it googling?

Because there isn't any reaction.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 06-09-2019 02:47
06-09-2019 08:59
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1142)
olyz wrote:
1) If there is CO2 in the air, ocean must be saturated and any additional won't make any difference.

That CO2 must be at it's maximum concentration in the water because there is CO2 in the air doesn't sound right.

When I think about "Saturation" I remember making cool aid as a kid. There is a literal maximum to how sweet you can get water with sugar, beyond which it will no longer dissolve and gather at the botton as a solid.

The difference with CO2 is that it's not being generated on the ocean floor and bubbling up to the surface, so that any CO2 the water can absorb it will. So there would be CO2 in the air anyway, even if the water was going to absorb it at the first opportunity.

So if club soda is the max acidity from CO2, just like cool aid with sugar settled in solid form on the bottom is the max sweetness, then a Ph of 3-4 is what the ocean would be if it was maxed out, and not 8.1.

IBdaMann wrote:ocean's average pH to be around 8.2...carbonic acide never gets to the bottom

Into the Night wrote:
Carbonic acid also becomes dissolved CO2. But it also remains near the surface.

What's your confidence level on the 8.2 IBD? and the 1% ITN? You guys believe those values to be "accurate"?
06-09-2019 10:23
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1197)
How is the CO2 getting into the ocean from the atmosphere in the first place? Water is much more dense than CO2, a liquid, and heavier. CO2 is a gas, and isn't likely to just dive right in there, and go for a swim on it's own. When you drink only half a bottle of a carbonated beverage, and let it set a while, even with the cap on, it goes flat. CO2 doesn't stay in solution, was it ever really dissolved? It's a mixture, not a solution, or even water soluble. To get a Carbonic acid, it needs to be in a closed container. It's just another one of those shady things that work in a jar, in laboratories, but doesn't work the same way naturally. Just like 'Green House' gasses are only special, in laboratory jars and artificial lights, they don't have the same capacity/opportunity to be special in nature. I tend to believe that much of the 'Climate Change' crap is based on similar 'science', where things that only work in a lab, don't actually apply in a natural setting, or to any significant extent.
06-09-2019 10:44
Into the Night
★★★★★
(9286)
tmiddles wrote:
olyz wrote:
1) If there is CO2 in the air, ocean must be saturated and any additional won't make any difference.

That CO2 must be at it's maximum concentration in the water because there is CO2 in the air doesn't sound right.

When I think about "Saturation" I remember making cool aid as a kid. There is a literal maximum to how sweet you can get water with sugar, beyond which it will no longer dissolve and gather at the botton as a solid.

The difference with CO2 is that it's not being generated on the ocean floor and bubbling up to the surface, so that any CO2 the water can absorb it will. So there would be CO2 in the air anyway, even if the water was going to absorb it at the first opportunity.

So if club soda is the max acidity from CO2, just like cool aid with sugar settled in solid form on the bottom is the max sweetness, then a Ph of 3-4 is what the ocean would be if it was maxed out, and not 8.1.

IBdaMann wrote:ocean's average pH to be around 8.2...carbonic acide never gets to the bottom

Into the Night wrote:
Carbonic acid also becomes dissolved CO2. But it also remains near the surface.

What's your confidence level on the 8.2 IBD? and the 1% ITN? You guys believe those values to be "accurate"?

Depends on what you mean by 'accurate', doesn't it?


The Parrot Killer
06-09-2019 10:51
Into the Night
★★★★★
(9286)
HarveyH55 wrote:
How is the CO2 getting into the ocean from the atmosphere in the first place? Water is much more dense than CO2, a liquid, and heavier. CO2 is a gas, and isn't likely to just dive right in there, and go for a swim on it's own. When you drink only half a bottle of a carbonated beverage, and let it set a while, even with the cap on, it goes flat. CO2 doesn't stay in solution, was it ever really dissolved? It's a mixture, not a solution, or even water soluble. To get a Carbonic acid, it needs to be in a closed container. It's just another one of those shady things that work in a jar, in laboratories, but doesn't work the same way naturally. Just like 'Green House' gasses are only special, in laboratory jars and artificial lights, they don't have the same capacity/opportunity to be special in nature. I tend to believe that much of the 'Climate Change' crap is based on similar 'science', where things that only work in a lab, don't actually apply in a natural setting, or to any significant extent.


CO2 is water soluble. The solubility of CO2 in water varies with temperature.

CO2 absorbs infrared light, just like it does in the laboratory. Absorption of infrared light emitted by the surface does not warm the Earth. It's just another way for the surface to heat the air, and cool itself in the process.


The Parrot Killer
06-09-2019 11:03
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1142)
Into the Night wrote:
Depends on what you mean by 'accurate', doesn't it?


Yes it does. You said "About" and present the number as if it's use-able data. Is it?
06-09-2019 16:08
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1197)
Into the Night wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
How is the CO2 getting into the ocean from the atmosphere in the first place? Water is much more dense than CO2, a liquid, and heavier. CO2 is a gas, and isn't likely to just dive right in there, and go for a swim on it's own. When you drink only half a bottle of a carbonated beverage, and let it set a while, even with the cap on, it goes flat. CO2 doesn't stay in solution, was it ever really dissolved? It's a mixture, not a solution, or even water soluble. To get a Carbonic acid, it needs to be in a closed container. It's just another one of those shady things that work in a jar, in laboratories, but doesn't work the same way naturally. Just like 'Green House' gasses are only special, in laboratory jars and artificial lights, they don't have the same capacity/opportunity to be special in nature. I tend to believe that much of the 'Climate Change' crap is based on similar 'science', where things that only work in a lab, don't actually apply in a natural setting, or to any significant extent.


CO2 is water soluble. The solubility of CO2 in water varies with temperature.

CO2 absorbs infrared light, just like it does in the laboratory. Absorption of infrared light emitted by the surface does not warm the Earth. It's just another way for the surface to heat the air, and cool itself in the process.


The point I was trying to get at, was that water doesn't leap up and grab CO2 out of the air, nor does CO2 dive right in, so how does it get into solution in the first place. I know how it's done in the lab, the local bar, and the soda pop factory, but it's not the same as in nature, and the oceans.

Is everything in the atmosphere transparent to that unique band of IR, that gives CO2 the super-warming powers? Probably not...
06-09-2019 18:16
olyz
★☆☆☆☆
(72)
SiO2 does not react to acids. Sand not relevant. My mistake.

Ph of ocean is 8.1
Ph of CO2 saturated solution is 5.5. STP.

CO2 gets into water same way O2 does: impingement of molecules at the surface. If you seal a jar with pure water and air, eventually all the CO2 dissolves or water becomes saturated (indicated by continued presence of CO2 in the air).

In the case of the ocean, dissolved CO2 (actually carbonic acid in equilibrium with CO2) reacts with basic material in the ocean allowing more CO2 to dissolve. It's a continuous process. There is a lot of basic material in the ocean. That's why ph of ocean isn't 5.5.
06-09-2019 18:47
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4640)
olyz wrote:Ph of ocean is 8.1

This is what Wikipedia used to claim back when they were decrying a 0.1 drop in pH due to Climate Change and Ocean Acidification! but Wikipedia's value keeps decreasing over the years without any valid dataset to serve as justification. I dismiss it outright. I firmly believe the ocean's average value is around 8.2. I have only my recollection of some test data so I am not trying to convince anyone of anything; I am simply stating my position on the matter. The blurb on Wikipedia is a bunch of misinformation targetting the gullible.

olyz wrote: Ph of CO2 saturated solution is 5.5. STP.

Did you miss the data I posted? None of these beverages get that high:

RC Cola 2.32
Coca-Cola Caffeine Free 2.34
Coca-Cola Classic 2.37
Coca-Cola Cherry 2.38
Pepsi 2.39
Pepsi Wild Cherry 2.41
Boylan's Sugar Cane Cola 2.54
Schweppes Tonic Water 2.54
Hansen's Cane Soda Pomegranate 2.55
Hansen's Cane Soda Mandarin Lime 2.57
Hansen's Cane Soda Kiwi Strawberry 2.59
Jolly Rancher Grape 2.6
Jones Green Apple Soda 2.65
Fanta Grape 2.67
Pepsi Max Ceasefire 2.7
Tab 2.72
Pepsi Max 2.74
Boylan's Black Cherry 2.76
Crush Grape 2.76
Grapico 2.77
Vault 2.77
Fanta Pineapple 2.79
Jones Orange & Cream Soda 2.79
Mr. Pibb Xtra 2.8
Vault Red Blitz 2.8
Jones Strawberry Lime 2.81
Canada Dry Ginger Ale 2.82
Fanta Orange 2.82
Fanta Strawberry 2.84
Crush Orange 2.87
Hawaiian Punch (Fruit Juicy Red) 2.87
Dr. Pepper 2.88
Jolly Rancher Orange 2.88
Jones M.F. Grape 2.89
Sunkist Peach 2.89
Vault X 2.89
Natural Brew Draft Root Beer 2.9
Boylan's Grape 2.91
Hansen's Cane Soda Cherry Vanilla Crème 2.91
Coca-Cola Cherry Zero 2.93
Jones Mandarin Orange 2.93
Coca-Cola Lime Diet 2.96
Coca-Cola Zero 2.96
7UP Cherry 2.98
Sunkist Orange 2.98
Jones Blue Bubblegum 2.99
Sunkist Strawberry 2.99
Izze Sparkling Pomegranate 3.01
Pepsi Diet 3.02
Sunkist Solar Fusion Tropical Mandarin 3.02
Mellow Yellow 3.03
Coca-Cola Caffeine Free Diet 3.04
Grapico Diet 3.04
Jones Cream Soda 3.04
Mountain Dew Voltage 3.05
Dr Pepper Cherry 3.06
Fresca 3.08
Sierra Mist 3.09
Coca-Cola Diet 3.1
Welch's Grape Soda 3.11
Ale 8-One 3.13
Sprite Zero 3.14
Mountain Dew Diet 3.18
Dr Pepper Diet 3.2
Boylan's Orange Soda 3.22
Mountain Dew (regular) 3.22
Buffalo Rock Ginger Ale 3.23
7UP 3.24
Sprite 3.24
Izze Sparkling Clementine 3.27
Mountain Dew Code Red 3.27
Izze Sparkling Blackberry 3.28
Sierra Mist 3.31
Dr Pepper Diet Cherry 3.32
Jones Red Apple 3.4
Jones Root Beer 3.42
Hansen's Cane Soda Black Cherry Diet 3.47
7UP Diet 3.48
Sunkist Diet 3.49
Boylan's Orange Cream 3.59
Hansen's Cane Soda Creamy Root Beer Diet 3.73
Boylan's Original Birch Beer 3.8
A&W Cream Soda 3.86
Mug Root Beer 3.88
Boylan's Diet Black Cherry 4
Boylan's Root Beer 4.01
Boylan's Diet Root Beer 4.05
IBC Root Beer 4.1
Barq's Root Beer 4.11
Boylan's Creme Soda 4.17
A&W Root Beer 4.27
Maine Root Root Beer 4.36
A&W Root Beer Diet 4.57
Canada Dry Club Soda 5.24

.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
06-09-2019 18:57
olyz
★☆☆☆☆
(72)
olyz wrote:
SiO2 does not react to acids. Sand not relevant. My mistake.

Ph of ocean is 8.1
Ph of CO2 saturated solution is 5.5. STP.

CO2 gets into water same way O2 does: impingement of molecules at the surface. If you seal a jar with pure water and air, eventually all the CO2 dissolves or water becomes saturated (indicated by continued presence of CO2 in the air).

In the case of the ocean, dissolved CO2 (actually carbonic acid in equilibrium with CO2) reacts with basic material in the ocean allowing more CO2 to dissolve. It's a continuous process. There is a lot of basic material in the ocean. That's why ph of ocean isn't 5.5.


Whether it's 8.1 or 8.2 is irrelevant to this post, as is the ph of soda under pressure.
06-09-2019 19:29
Into the Night
★★★★★
(9286)
HarveyH55 wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
HarveyH55 wrote:
How is the CO2 getting into the ocean from the atmosphere in the first place? Water is much more dense than CO2, a liquid, and heavier. CO2 is a gas, and isn't likely to just dive right in there, and go for a swim on it's own. When you drink only half a bottle of a carbonated beverage, and let it set a while, even with the cap on, it goes flat. CO2 doesn't stay in solution, was it ever really dissolved? It's a mixture, not a solution, or even water soluble. To get a Carbonic acid, it needs to be in a closed container. It's just another one of those shady things that work in a jar, in laboratories, but doesn't work the same way naturally. Just like 'Green House' gasses are only special, in laboratory jars and artificial lights, they don't have the same capacity/opportunity to be special in nature. I tend to believe that much of the 'Climate Change' crap is based on similar 'science', where things that only work in a lab, don't actually apply in a natural setting, or to any significant extent.


CO2 is water soluble. The solubility of CO2 in water varies with temperature.

CO2 absorbs infrared light, just like it does in the laboratory. Absorption of infrared light emitted by the surface does not warm the Earth. It's just another way for the surface to heat the air, and cool itself in the process.


The point I was trying to get at, was that water doesn't leap up and grab CO2 out of the air,

It has no hands, so it can't grab anything.

HarveyH55 wrote:
nor does CO2 dive right in,

Swan dive? Belly flop?

HarveyH55 wrote:
so how does it get into solution in the first place.

CO2 is in contact with the surface of the water. It just diffuses right in (and vents right out again!) Meantime, some of it is in solution.
HarveyH55 wrote:
I know how it's done in the lab, the local bar, and the soda pop factory, but it's not the same as in nature, and the oceans.

In a way it is. Labs, bars, and soda factories want to put a lot of CO2 into solution quickly, so they just inject the gas right into the water. The bubbles are greater surface contact with the water than just the indisturbed surface, but otherwise the same thing happens. It just diffuses right into the water and goes into solution.
HarveyH55 wrote:
Is everything in the atmosphere transparent to that unique band of IR, that gives CO2 the super-warming powers? Probably not...

It's actually a pretty narrow range of frequencies. However, yes. Other things absorb those frequencies. Liquid water, for example, shares some of them. Pretty much anything absorbs IR on some frequency or other.


The Parrot Killer
06-09-2019 19:38
Into the Night
★★★★★
(9286)
olyz wrote:
SiO2 does not react to acids. Sand not relevant. My mistake.

Ph of ocean is 8.1
Ph of CO2 saturated solution is 5.5. STP.

Depends on the solution.
olyz wrote:
CO2 gets into water same way O2 does: impingement of molecules at the surface. If you seal a jar with pure water and air, eventually all the CO2 dissolves or water becomes saturated (indicated by continued presence of CO2 in the air).

Not an indication of saturation. That is an indication of equilibrium instead.
olyz wrote:
In the case of the ocean, dissolved CO2 (actually carbonic acid in equilibrium with CO2)
reacts with basic material in the ocean allowing more CO2 to dissolve.

I basically doesn't react with anything. It just vents back into the air again.
olyz wrote:
It's a continuous process. There is a lot of basic material in the ocean. That's why ph of ocean isn't 5.5.

Almost no reaction occurs at all. It just vents back into the air again.


The Parrot Killer
06-09-2019 19:41
Into the Night
★★★★★
(9286)
IBdaMann wrote:
olyz wrote:Ph of ocean is 8.1

This is what Wikipedia used to claim back when they were decrying a 0.1 drop in pH due to Climate Change and Ocean Acidification! but Wikipedia's value keeps decreasing over the years without any valid dataset to serve as justification. I dismiss it outright. I firmly believe the ocean's average value is around 8.2. I have only my recollection of some test data so I am not trying to convince anyone of anything; I am simply stating my position on the matter. The blurb on Wikipedia is a bunch of misinformation targetting the gullible.



The pH of ocean water varies somewhat, depend on where you draw your sample from.

Most folks consider the average of them around 8.2. It is, of course, not possible to actually measure the global average pH of the world's oceans.


The Parrot Killer
06-09-2019 19:44
Into the Night
★★★★★
(9286)
olyz wrote:
olyz wrote:
SiO2 does not react to acids. Sand not relevant. My mistake.

Ph of ocean is 8.1
Ph of CO2 saturated solution is 5.5. STP.

CO2 gets into water same way O2 does: impingement of molecules at the surface. If you seal a jar with pure water and air, eventually all the CO2 dissolves or water becomes saturated (indicated by continued presence of CO2 in the air).

In the case of the ocean, dissolved CO2 (actually carbonic acid in equilibrium with CO2) reacts with basic material in the ocean allowing more CO2 to dissolve. It's a continuous process. There is a lot of basic material in the ocean. That's why ph of ocean isn't 5.5.


Whether it's 8.1 or 8.2 is irrelevant to this post, as is the ph of soda under pressure.

It IS relevant to this post, since you are discarding examples of soda water that do not get that acidic, yet they contain a LOT more dissolved CO2.

The basic problem you are having is that you are conflating equilibrium with saturation. They are not the same.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 06-09-2019 19:45
06-09-2019 20:43
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4640)
olyz wrote: Whether it's 8.1 or 8.2 is irrelevant to this post, as is the ph of soda under pressure.

It seemed to be the basis for your post.

What if the soda is not under pressure? Doesn't the pH remain the same?


.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
06-09-2019 20:56
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4640)
Into the Night wrote:The pH of ocean water varies somewhat, depend on where you draw your sample from.

Absolutely. In fact, it varies substantially. You probably won't be surprised to learn that "Ocean Acidification!"-crying "Climate Scientists have actually been dishonest in this regard. They have taken water samples over time, each time getting a little closer to a bay and ultimately closer to the mouth of a river, amazingly portraying a decrease in pH over time, or an "Acidification!" if you will.

Into the Night wrote:Most folks consider the average of them around 8.2. It is, of course, not possible to actually measure the global average pH of the world's oceans.

Of course. The ocean is alkaline because of natural geological activity. Any carbonic acid, however, is part of a cycle and will be removed through evaporation. In short, the oceans certainly might be alkalinizing and will never become acidic, i.e. will never acidify.

.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
07-09-2019 00:43
olyz
★☆☆☆☆
(72)
olyz wrote:
CO2 gets into water same way O2 does: impingement of molecules at the surface. If you seal a jar with pure water and air, eventually all the CO2 dissolves or water becomes saturated (indicated by continued presence of CO2 in the air).


Wrong. Completely wrong.

At any temp and pressure, solute particles of gas entering the liquid solvent are balanced by solute particles leaving. Henry's law applies:

c=kp
c is concentration of solute (CO2) in solvent (H2O) in mole/liter, and p is partial pressure in atmospheres of CO2.
To determine k, note that solubility of CO2 at 1atm and 15degC is .045mol/liter.
.045mol/L=kx1atm
K=.045mol/(L-atm)

Partial pressure of 400ppmv CO2 in the atmosphere is its molar fraction times 1atm.
ppCO2=.0004x44/(.22x32+.78x28)=.0006

c=.045x.0006=2.7x10^-5 molsCO2/LiterH2O at 15degC

Water on earth= 1.386x10^18L
This converts to 75x10^7 tons CO2 dissolved in water when CO2 concentration in the atmosphere is 400ppmv

Yearly CO2 emmision from fossil fuel is 6ppmv.

Wanted to find how much of yearly production of 6.4ppmv CO2 from fossil fuel wound up in the ocean. Requires some more thought.
Edited on 07-09-2019 00:56
07-09-2019 03:20
Into the Night
★★★★★
(9286)
olyz wrote:
olyz wrote:
CO2 gets into water same way O2 does: impingement of molecules at the surface. If you seal a jar with pure water and air, eventually all the CO2 dissolves or water becomes saturated (indicated by continued presence of CO2 in the air).


Wrong. Completely wrong.

At any temp and pressure, solute particles of gas entering the liquid solvent are balanced by solute particles leaving. Henry's law applies:

c=kp
c is concentration of solute (CO2) in solvent (H2O) in mole/liter, and p is partial pressure in atmospheres of CO2.
To determine k, note that solubility of CO2 at 1atm and 15degC is .045mol/liter.
.045mol/L=kx1atm
K=.045mol/(L-atm)

Partial pressure of 400ppmv CO2 in the atmosphere is its molar fraction times 1atm.
ppCO2=.0004x44/(.22x32+.78x28)=.0006

c=.045x.0006=2.7x10^-5 molsCO2/LiterH2O at 15degC

Water on earth= 1.386x10^18L
This converts to 75x10^7 tons CO2 dissolved in water when CO2 concentration in the atmosphere is 400ppmv

Or about 0.00054 ppmv of the ocean water, assuming your numbers.
olyz wrote:
Yearly CO2 emmision from fossil fuel is 6ppmv.

Zero. Fossils don't burn. We don't use them for fuel. They don't generate CO2 either.
olyz wrote:
Wanted to find how much of yearly production of 6.4ppmv CO2 from fossil fuel wound up in the ocean. Requires some more thought.

Zero.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 07-09-2019 03:21
07-09-2019 06:50
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1142)
olyz wrote: If you seal a jar with pure water and air, eventually all the CO2 dissolves or water becomes saturated

CO2+H2O->H2CO3 ->H + HCO3

This is going to be a cycle, not a one way process. Even short of saturation there should be a drifting back and forth of the two states with some:
H2CO3->CO2+H2O going on.

This was worth watching: https://www.khanacademy.org/science/health-and-medicine/respiratory-system/gas-exchange-jv/v/o2-and-co2-solubility

Note that in both the O2 and CO2 cases O2 and CO2 leave the water before it's saturated.

CO2 is far more soluble than O2 but it's not completely soluble. Some still leaves the water.

olyz wrote:
Partial pressure of 400ppmv CO2 in the atmosphere is its molar fraction times 1atm....

Don't you think they should be able to simulate this pretty closely in a lab? It doesn't sound hard to do.
Edited on 07-09-2019 06:59
10-09-2019 17:31
olyz
★☆☆☆☆
(72)
olyz wrote:

At any temp and pressure, solute particles of gas entering the liquid solvent are balanced by solute particles leaving. Henry's law applies:

c=kp
c is concentration of solute (CO2) in solvent (H2O) in mole/liter, and p is partial pressure in atmospheres of CO2.
To determine k, note that solubility of CO2 at 1atm and 15degC is .045mol/liter.
.045mol/L=kx1atm
K=.045mol/(L-atm)

Partial pressure of 400ppmv CO2 in the atmosphere is its molar fraction times 1atm.
ppCO2=.0004x44/(.22x32+.78x28)=.0006

c=.045x.0006=2.7x10^-5 molsCO2/LiterH2O at 15degC

Water on earth= 1.386x10^18L
This converts to 75x10^7 tons CO2 dissolved in water when CO2 concentration in the atmosphere is 400ppmv

Yearly CO2 emmision from fossil fuel is 6ppmv.

Wanted to find how much of yearly production of 6.4ppmv CO2 from fossil fuel wound up in the ocean. Requires some more thought.


Some more thought.

c=kq Henry's law
q=molar fraction=weight fraction of CO2 in atmosphere.
dc=dq
dq=(1-f)dw
dw=weight fraction of CO2 added in one year by burning fossil fuel.
f=fraction of dw going into solution in ocean.

dc=fdwW/v
W=weight of atmosphere, mold
V=volume of ocean, liters

fdwW/V=k(1-f)dw
Solving for f gives

f=k/[(W/V)+k]
k=.045 mol/L-Atm
W=1.8x10^20 mol*
V=1.386x10^6 Liters
f=.00035

So of the 6.4ppmv CO2 from fossil fuel yearly, no significant portion is dissolved in the ocean. This doesn't mean that what is dissolved doesn't significantly increase ph. I haven't been able to find how ph varies with CO2 concentration.

*5.75x10^15 tons of atmosphere.
29gms/mol of atmosphere.
1gm/1.102x10^-6 tons
10-09-2019 17:31
olyz
★☆☆☆☆
(72)
olyz wrote:

At any temp and pressure, solute particles of gas entering the liquid solvent are balanced by solute particles leaving. Henry's law applies:

c=kp
c is concentration of solute (CO2) in solvent (H2O) in mole/liter, and p is partial pressure in atmospheres of CO2.
To determine k, note that solubility of CO2 at 1atm and 15degC is .045mol/liter.
.045mol/L=kx1atm
K=.045mol/(L-atm)

Partial pressure of 400ppmv CO2 in the atmosphere is its molar fraction times 1atm.
ppCO2=.0004x44/(.22x32+.78x28)=.0006

c=.045x.0006=2.7x10^-5 molsCO2/LiterH2O at 15degC

Water on earth= 1.386x10^18L
This converts to 75x10^7 tons CO2 dissolved in water when CO2 concentration in the atmosphere is 400ppmv

Yearly CO2 emmision from fossil fuel is 6ppmv.

Wanted to find how much of yearly production of 6.4ppmv CO2 from fossil fuel wound up in the ocean. Requires some more thought.


Some more thought.

c=kq Henry's law
q=molar fraction=weight fraction of CO2 in atmosphere.
dc=dq
dq=(1-f)dw
dw=weight fraction of CO2 added in one year by burning fossil fuel.
f=fraction of dw going into solution in ocean.

dc=fdwW/v
W=weight of atmosphere, mold
V=volume of ocean, liters

fdwW/V=k(1-f)dw
Solving for f gives

f=k/[(W/V)+k]
k=.045 mol/L-Atm
W=1.8x10^20 mol*
V=1.386x10^6 Liters
f=.00035

So of the 6.4ppmv CO2 from fossil fuel yearly, no significant portion is dissolved in the ocean. This doesn't mean that what is dissolved doesn't significantly increase ph. I haven't been able to find how ph varies with CO2 concentration.

*5.75x10^15 tons of atmosphere.
29gms/mol of atmosphere.
1gm/1.102x10^-6 tons

EDiT
Found this interesting statement from climatecentral.com:
"Oceans absorb about 25% of human produced CO2 each year." Oh!? More blah blah for effect.
Edited on 10-09-2019 17:49
10-09-2019 17:58
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1197)
The oceans contain a whole lot of water, which is a long way from being saturated with anything. Atmospheric CO2, at 0.04% isn't significant at all. Even if you could 'force' every CO2 molecule into the oceans, it would change anything enough to raise any concern. Only a very small portion, of that already tiny, 0.04% of the CO2, comes in contact with the oceans, in reality, no way to actually measure it, or calculate the possible effect. Basically, what you are doing, is taking some estimated numbers, working it out on paper, then trying to say it applies on a global scale, which it doesn't actually work that way, just on paper. It involves ignoring a whole lot of more significant details, just to make it simple, and illustrate a fantasy.
10-09-2019 19:05
Into the Night
★★★★★
(9286)
HarveyH55 wrote:
The oceans contain a whole lot of water, which is a long way from being saturated with anything. Atmospheric CO2, at 0.04% isn't significant at all. Even if you could 'force' every CO2 molecule into the oceans, it would change anything enough to raise any concern. Only a very small portion, of that already tiny, 0.04% of the CO2, comes in contact with the oceans, in reality, no way to actually measure it, or calculate the possible effect. Basically, what you are doing, is taking some estimated numbers, working it out on paper, then trying to say it applies on a global scale, which it doesn't actually work that way, just on paper. It involves ignoring a whole lot of more significant details, just to make it simple, and illustrate a fantasy.

Bingo.


The Parrot Killer
12-09-2019 09:06
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1142)
olyz wrote:
So of the 6.4ppmv CO2 from fossil fuel yearly, no significant portion is dissolved in the ocean. This doesn't mean that what is dissolved doesn't significantly increase ph. I haven't been able to find how ph varies with CO2 concentration.


Do you mean that the atmospheric CO2 is significant in how much dissolves? But the annual fossil fuel contribution is not?
12-09-2019 18:46
olyz
★☆☆☆☆
(72)
tmiddles wrote:
olyz wrote:
So of the 6.4ppmv CO2 from fossil fuel yearly, no significant portion is dissolved in the ocean. This doesn't mean that what is dissolved doesn't significantly increase ph. I haven't been able to find how ph varies with CO2 concentration.


Do you mean that the atmospheric CO2 is significant in how much dissolves? But the annual fossil fuel contribution is not?


I simply wanted to determine if a significant portion of the 6.4ppmv CO2 produced by yearly burning of fossil fuel was absorbed by the ocean. It isn't.
So where does it go? Only 2ppmv is recorded. Absorbed by vegetation? Offhand I don't see any other possibility.

And how significant is the fraction, .00035 or .035% that does go into solution? I don't know.

You would think that with all the money that goes into Climate "research" someone could come up with an accurate graph of ph vs concentration of CO2. I assume they did and didn't like the result so it's not available. So much blah blah and you can't find fundamental results. That seems to be true of the "global warming" question in general.

Thanks for your concise question. Copying and posting a long list of soda ph and then quoting it, serves no purpose, as most other posts, but to trash and bury the discussion, which I assume is the intent.
Soda under pressure has a ph of 2.5-3 is perfectly adequate.
12-09-2019 19:00
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1142)
olyz wrote:
You would think that with all the money that goes into Climate "research" someone could come up with an accurate graph of ph vs concentration of CO2. I assume they did and didn't like the result so it's not available.

Yeah what I don't get is why something exactly like what you've analyzed can't be reproduced in a lab. Actually worth watching:
teacher blows into water to change PH

Why is it some 2 liter bottle cheapo lame experiments on YouTube?

Harvey posted about the Bill Nye b.s. experiment too.
12-09-2019 19:24
olyz
★☆☆☆☆
(72)
From wiki, "Henry's law:"

"In physical chemistry, Henry's law is a gas law that states that the amount (concentration) of dissolved gas in a liquid is proportional to its partial pressure above the liquid."

That's what I used to come up with my result. It classic science. It doesn't need to be confirmed with a lab experiment.

You can see a sample calculation if you google-
Henry's law

I tried copying and pasting image but was unsuccessful.
Edited on 12-09-2019 19:54
12-09-2019 20:57
Into the Night
★★★★★
(9286)
olyz wrote:
tmiddles wrote:
olyz wrote:
So of the 6.4ppmv CO2 from fossil fuel yearly, no significant portion is dissolved in the ocean. This doesn't mean that what is dissolved doesn't significantly increase ph. I haven't been able to find how ph varies with CO2 concentration.


Do you mean that the atmospheric CO2 is significant in how much dissolves? But the annual fossil fuel contribution is not?


I simply wanted to determine if a significant portion of the 6.4ppmv CO2 produced by yearly burning of fossil fuel was absorbed by the ocean. It isn't.

Understandable. Fossils don't burn and don't produce CO2.
olyz wrote:
So where does it go?

Where does what go? The non-existent CO2 that came from something that doesn't burn??
olyz wrote:
Only 2ppmv is recorded.

By whom? Where? When? What instrumentation was used? How was it calibrated? How was it measured?
olyz wrote:
Absorbed by vegetation?

Extension of assumption.
olyz wrote:
Offhand I don't see any other possibility.

Offhand, I think you are just making up numbers.
olyz wrote:
And how significant is the fraction, .00035 or .035% that does go into solution?

A fraction of zero is zero.
olyz wrote:
You would think that with all the money that goes into Climate "research" someone could come up with an accurate graph of ph vs concentration of CO2.

Since CO2 is not uniformly distributed in the water, such a graph is rather meaningless.
olyz wrote:
I assume they did and didn't like the result so it's not available.

No, it simply would be meaningless.
olyz wrote:
So much blah blah and you can't find fundamental results.

No so fundamental. CO2 is not uniformly distributed in the water.
olyz wrote:
That seems to be true of the "global warming" question in general.

There is no question about an undefined word, other than getting someone to define it.
olyz wrote:
Thanks for your concise question. Copying and posting a long list of soda ph and then quoting it, serves no purpose, as most other posts, but to trash and bury the discussion, which I assume is the intent.

No, it's to counter your next randU number.
olyz wrote:
Soda under pressure has a ph of 2.5-3 is perfectly adequate.

Argument from randU fallacy.


The Parrot Killer
12-09-2019 20:59
Into the Night
★★★★★
(9286)
tmiddles wrote:
olyz wrote:
You would think that with all the money that goes into Climate "research" someone could come up with an accurate graph of ph vs concentration of CO2. I assume they did and didn't like the result so it's not available.

Yeah what I don't get is why something exactly like what you've analyzed can't be reproduced in a lab. Actually worth watching:
teacher blows into water to change PH

A small amount of water. The ocean is considerably larger, you know.
tmiddles wrote:
Why is it some 2 liter bottle cheapo lame experiments on YouTube?
They're cheap?
tmiddles wrote:
Harvey posted about the Bill Nye b.s. experiment too.

Only to make fun of it, you understand.


The Parrot Killer
12-09-2019 23:34
olyz
★☆☆☆☆
(72)
olyz wrote:
From wiki, "Henry's law:"

"In physical chemistry, Henry's law is a gas law that states that the amount (concentration) of dissolved gas in a liquid is proportional to its partial pressure above the liquid."

That's what I used to come up with my result. It classic science. It doesn't need to be confirmed with a lab experiment.

You can see a sample calculation if you google-
Henry's law

I tried copying and pasting image but was unsuccessful.


tmiddles wrote:
olyz wrote:
How do you do it?

I don't know if you can do it as is. When I get a weird one like that I right click and search Google for the image. See results:
Google image search

If you're lucky other image options that work are there:
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/eM56JYel1aM/maxresdefault.jpg



Thanks so much tmiddles. That's what I was trying to do.
Edited on 12-09-2019 23:37
12-09-2019 23:36
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1142)
olyz wrote:
It classic science. It doesn't need to be confirmed with a lab experiment.


Agreed but confirming the Ph change first then testing that slight Ph difference on a marine ecosystem seems doable in a controlled environment.
12-09-2019 23:41
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1142)
Into the Night wrote:
A fraction of zero is zero...., such a graph is rather meaningless....
Argument from randU fallacy.


Yeah I know ITN, you really want to end all debate, exploration and kill science in general. Noted.

This topic is good work I'm glad someone else is here to be productive!
12-09-2019 23:54
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(4640)
olyz wrote:
From wiki, "Henry's law:"

"In physical chemistry, Henry's law is a gas law that states that the amount (concentration) of dissolved gas in a liquid is proportional to its partial pressure above the liquid."

Does Wikipedia explain how deep into the liquid that applies?

Does Wikipedia explain how that changes with the rate of evaporation of the liquid, or with variable infusion of differing sources of the partially-pressured gas in question?

olyz wrote: That's what I used to come up with my result. It classic science. It doesn't need to be confirmed with a lab experiment.

Is that what lab experiments do, i.e. they confirm things?



.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
13-09-2019 00:33
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1142)
IBdaMann wrote:
Is that what lab experiments do, i.e. they confirm things?
.

Any examples at all you consider useable?

So far you have disqualified everything ever presented here in 5 long years of sabotaging debate.
13-09-2019 03:22
Into the Night
★★★★★
(9286)
tmiddles wrote:
olyz wrote:
It classic science. It doesn't need to be confirmed with a lab experiment.


Agreed but confirming the Ph change first then testing that slight Ph difference on a marine ecosystem seems doable in a controlled environment.


The Earth is not a controlled environment.


The Parrot Killer
13-09-2019 03:26
Into the Night
★★★★★
(9286)
tmiddles wrote:
Into the Night wrote:
A fraction of zero is zero...., such a graph is rather meaningless....
Argument from randU fallacy.


Yeah I know ITN, you really want to end all debate, exploration and kill science in general. Noted.

This topic is good work I'm glad someone else is here to be productive!


Nah. I just want to end your preaching. You are not debating. You are not exploring or using science at all. Bad math is not science either.


The Parrot Killer
Edited on 13-09-2019 03:27
13-09-2019 03:27
Into the Night
★★★★★
(9286)
tmiddles wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
Is that what lab experiments do, i.e. they confirm things?
.

Any examples at all you consider useable?

So far you have disqualified everything ever presented here in 5 long years of sabotaging debate.


Lie. Bulverism fallacy.


The Parrot Killer
13-09-2019 03:46
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1142)
Into the Night wrote:
I just want to end your preaching. You are not debating. You are not exploring or using science at all. ...


The censor finally admits what he does.
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