Remember me
▼ Content

Ocean ph.



Page 2 of 2<12
13-09-2019 03:52
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1484)
But the oceans, and the atmosphere are considerably different, than what's being done in the label, for which those equations apply. Oceans aren't pure, distilled water, no natural water source is pure H2O. The atmosphere is much more than CO2 (only 0.04%), which isn't the only soluble gas. That 0.04% CO2 isn't all sitting a the surface of the ocean, all at once, all the time either. There is no way of telling how much CO2 could possibly be available to the ocean, which makes the calculations pointless. It's not likely there is any way to measure pH changes attributed to man-made CO2, or CO2 in general.
13-09-2019 21:19
olyz
★☆☆☆☆
(87)
It's a case of worst case scenarios. In engineering you never know all the exact conditions. You can't possibly know on any given day what the exact weather conditions will be between a) and b) so we can't design an airplane. If by experience, observation and trial you can predict a worst case scenario, you can design a plane, or a bridge, or a car. You might assume a worst case scenario but the plane you come up with might never leave the ground or break up on first encounter with bad weather.

I was curious about solution of CO2 in the ocean for two reasons:
1) Does it contribute to reduction of CO2 from fossil fuel? No
2) How much does it change ocean ph?

In either case a worst case scenario can give significant information.

Henry's law gives concentration at surface with unknown variation at deeper depths.

If you assume uniform concentration over the worlds water you get that only .035% of the yearly production of 6.4ppmv from fossil fuel is absorbed by the ocean. So answer to 1) is no and the exact variation of concentration is academic from that point of view.

With the same uniform distribution of CO2 in the ocean, you should be able to calculate change in ph if you knew how ph various with dissolved amount of CO2. If that turns out to be insignificant, my original goal, then you don't have to worry about it. If not, you have to look at in more detail. I couldn't find any hard information on ph variation with dissolved CO2.
14-09-2019 02:19
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9896)
olyz wrote:
It's a case of worst case scenarios. In engineering you never know all the exact conditions. You can't possibly know on any given day what the exact weather conditions will be between a) and b) so we can't design an airplane.

We can design airplaines. We don't need to know any weather conditions to do so.
olyz wrote:
If by experience, observation and trial you can predict a worst case scenario, you can design a plane, or a bridge, or a car.

We don't design airplanes or cars for worst case scenarios. We design bridges for the expected worse conditions at that location.
olyz wrote:
You might assume a worst case scenario but the plane you come up with might never leave the ground or break up on first encounter with bad weather.

Nothing to do with it. Weather is not a factor when designing airplanes, other than making them out of materials that can handle getting wet.
olyz wrote:
I was curious about solution of CO2 in the ocean for two reasons:
1) Does it contribute to reduction of CO2 from fossil fuel? No
2) How much does it change ocean ph?
1) Zero. Fossils don't burn.
2) Zero. Fossils don't burn.
[quote]olyz wrote:
In either case a worst case scenario can give significant information.

Nope. Fossils don't burn. In the case of CO2 produced from carbon based fuels, the answers are:
1) Academic. It doesn't matter.
2) It doesn't.
olyz wrote:
Henry's law gives concentration at surface with unknown variation at deeper depths.

Not that it matters, it's one reason why 1) or 2) is not really possible to calculate.
olyz wrote:
If you assume uniform concentration over the worlds water you get that only .035% of the yearly production of 6.4ppmv from fossil fuel is absorbed by the ocean.

Zero. Fossils don't burn. CO2 is not uniformly distributed in ocean water or in the air. You are making a rash assumption. The problem is now an academic one and has no relation to anything real.
olyz wrote:
So answer to 1) is no and the exact variation of concentration is academic from that point of view.

Zero for fossils 'fuels', correct for carbon based fuels.
olyz wrote:
With the same uniform distribution of CO2 in the ocean, you should be able to calculate change in ph if you knew how ph various with dissolved amount of CO2.

Nope. First it isn't uniformly distributed, and second, it depends on the amount of the ocean water, what else is in it, etc.
olyz wrote:
If that turns out to be insignificant, my original goal, then you don't have to worry about it. If not, you have to look at in more detail. I couldn't find any hard information on ph variation with dissolved CO2.

Because it depends on how much water there is, what else is in it, etc.
Dissolved CO2 by itself doesn't change pH at all. Carbonic acid, which part of the dissolved CO2 turns into (and back again) is dependent on the amount of water, what else is in it, etc.

You should study up on buffers in acid-base chemical reactions.


The Parrot Killer
14-09-2019 22:02
olyz
★☆☆☆☆
(87)
I am interested in how much of the CO2 in the air dissolves in water. It is a very small percentage.

I am interested in ph as a function of CO2 concentration before dissociation, which is what Henry's law gives you.

If the concentration from 6.4ppmv CO2 changes ph by .5, that is significant. If it changes it by .0005, that isn't.

Previous post comments, being illogically related to the references, are unintelligible.

If you are captain of a ship entering a large unknown harbor, and find that minimum depth is 40ft, which is sufficient for your ship, would you enter the harbor or refuse to go in till you knew the depth of the harbor everywhere?
14-09-2019 23:06
tmiddlesProfile picture★★★★☆
(1399)
olyz wrote:
If the concentration from 6.4ppmv CO2 changes ph by .5, that is significant. If it changes it by .0005, that isn't.


But if it was 0.05 that would amount to 0.5 in ten years wouldn't it?

I'm not sure why you're saying it's insignificant. I mean a slow movement can still get from point A to point B right?
15-09-2019 00:41
HarveyH55
★★★★☆
(1484)
tmiddles wrote:
olyz wrote:
If the concentration from 6.4ppmv CO2 changes ph by .5, that is significant. If it changes it by .0005, that isn't.


But if it was 0.05 that would amount to 0.5 in ten years wouldn't it?

I'm not sure why you're saying it's insignificant. I mean a slow movement can still get from point A to point B right?


Much like global warming, it doesn't just keep stacking up. It changes all the time, sometime a little, sometimes a little more. It's not only CO2, there is a lot more going in this world. Alarmists only tell one side of the story, denier there is anything else. Oddly enough, they call me the 'denier'...
15-09-2019 07:12
VernerHornungProfile picture★☆☆☆☆
(133)
IBdaMann wrote:
Actually, sodas are much less than that.


Soda pop is laced with the strong phosphoric acid for "tartness," a thing which hasn't been mentioned here. Hence the low pH, and the reason it's so bad for my teeth.

Removal of oceanic dissolved CO2 from the carbon cycle for long periods happens when it reacts with calcium and magnesium ions after being taken up by plankton to build their calcium carbonate shells. These die and the shells accumulate on the seabed to form limestone. Carbonate rock can also arise from weathering on land by rain, which tends toward the acidic. Neither weathering nor calcareous plankton have been mentioned here, either; oddly as this would seem to help the deniers.

Just a note.



Never try to solve an NP-complete problem on your own with pencil & paper.
15-09-2019 07:20
IBdaMannProfile picture★★★★★
(5034)
VernerHornung wrote:
IBdaMann wrote:
Actually, sodas are much less than that.


Soda pop is laced with the strong phosphoric acid for "tartness," a thing which hasn't been mentioned here. Hence the low pH, and the reason it's so bad for my teeth.

I stand corrected.

Yes, phosphoric acid has quite the impact on the pH of soda. I did not know that.

I retract what I wrote.

Thank you for the correction.

.


Global Warming: The preferred religion of the scientifically illiterate.

Printing dollars to pay debt doesn't increase the number of dollars. - keepit

When the alt-physics birds sing about "indivisible bodies," we've got pure BS. - VernerHornung

Ah the "Valid Data" myth of ITN/IBD. - tmiddles

Ceist - I couldn't agree with you more. But when money and religion are involved, and there are people who value them above all else, then the lies begin. - trafn

You are completely misunderstanding their use of the word "accumulation"! - Climate Scientist.

The Stefan-Boltzman equation doesn't come up with the correct temperature if greenhouse gases are not considered - Hank

:*sigh* Not the "raw data" crap. - Leafsdude

IB STILL hasn't explained what Planck's Law means. Just more hand waving that it applies to everything and more asserting that the greenhouse effect 'violates' it.- Ceist
16-09-2019 22:44
olyz
★☆☆☆☆
(87)
ph=log[H+], definition, base10, and concentration in moles/liter

d(ph)=-.5dc/c
c=current concentration of H+ assuming ph of ocean = 8: 10^-8
dc=change in concentration of H+ due to addition of 6ppmv CO2 to atmosphere from burning ff for one year.
dc=[.405(6.5x10^-6]*[H2C03]/[H20]x2**
* Henry's law
[H2C03]/[H20] equilibrium constant for dissociation of CO2 in sea water =1.2x10^-3
** Assume H2C03 <-> 2H+ + CO3^--

If you crank out the arithmetic you get change in ph due to 6.5ppmv CO2 production from burning ff in one year:

d(ph) = -.04

which is not insignificant.
17-09-2019 00:40
Into the NightProfile picture★★★★★
(9896)
olyz wrote:
ph=log[H+], definition, base10, and concentration in moles/liter

d(ph)=-.5dc/c
c=current concentration of H+ assuming ph of ocean = 8: 10^-8
dc=change in concentration of H+ due to addition of 6ppmv CO2 to atmosphere from burning ff for one year.
dc=[.405(6.5x10^-6]*[H2C03]/[H20]x2**
* Henry's law
[H2C03]/[H20] equilibrium constant for dissociation of CO2 in sea water =1.2x10^-3
** Assume H2C03 <-> 2H+ + CO3^--

If you crank out the arithmetic you get change in ph due to 6.5ppmv CO2 production from burning ff in one year:

d(ph) = -.04

You forgot dissolved calcium carbonates and nitrates in the sea water. Ooops.


which is not insignificant.



The Parrot Killer
Page 2 of 2<12





Join the debate Ocean ph.:

Remember me

Related content
ThreadsRepliesLast post
Temperatures leap 40 degrees above normal as the Arctic Ocean and Greenland ice sheet see record June mel318-06-2019 06:22
Historic ocean acidification6025-04-2019 18:03
Whirlpool theory of ocean deadzones?325-04-2019 05:47
Ocean heat sources419-04-2019 23:21
How can more CO2 inthe air go into ocean?608-02-2019 03:46
▲ Top of page
Public Poll
Who is leading the renewable energy race?

US

EU

China

Japan

India

Brazil

Other

Don't know


Thanks for supporting Climate-Debate.com.
Copyright © 2009-2019 Climate-Debate.com | About | Contact