Ocean ph.

olyz wrote:
It's a case of worst case scenarios. In engineering you never know all the exact conditions. You can't possibly know on any given day what the exact weather conditions will be between a) and b) so we can't design an airplane.

olyz wrote:
If by experience, observation and trial you can predict a worst case scenario, you can design a plane, or a bridge, or a car.

olyz wrote:
You might assume a worst case scenario but the plane you come up with might never leave the ground or break up on first encounter with bad weather.

olyz wrote:
I was curious about solution of CO2 in the ocean for two reasons:
1) Does it contribute to reduction of CO2 from fossil fuel? No
2) How much does it change ocean ph?
1) Zero. Fossils don't burn.
2) Zero. Fossils don't burn.
[quote]olyz wrote:
In either case a worst case scenario can give significant information.

olyz wrote:
Henry's law gives concentration at surface with unknown variation at deeper depths.

olyz wrote:
If you assume uniform concentration over the worlds water you get that only .035% of the yearly production of 6.4ppmv from fossil fuel is absorbed by the ocean.

olyz wrote:
So answer to 1) is no and the exact variation of concentration is academic from that point of view.

olyz wrote:
With the same uniform distribution of CO2 in the ocean, you should be able to calculate change in ph if you knew how ph various with dissolved amount of CO2.

olyz wrote:
If that turns out to be insignificant, my original goal, then you don't have to worry about it. If not, you have to look at in more detail. I couldn't find any hard information on ph variation with dissolved CO2.

olyz wrote:
If the concentration from 6.4ppmv CO2 changes ph by .5, that is significant. If it changes it by .0005, that isn't.

tmiddles wrote:

olyz wrote:
If the concentration from 6.4ppmv CO2 changes ph by .5, that is significant. If it changes it by .0005, that isn't.

But if it was 0.05 that would amount to 0.5 in ten years wouldn't it?

I'm not sure why you're saying it's insignificant. I mean a slow movement can still get from point A to point B right?

IBdaMann wrote:
Actually, sodas are much less than that.

VernerHornung wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:
Actually, sodas are much less than that.

Soda pop is laced with the strong phosphoric acid for "tartness," a thing which hasn't been mentioned here. Hence the low pH, and the reason it's so bad for my teeth.

olyz wrote:
ph=log[H+], definition, base10, and concentration in moles/liter

d(ph)=-.5dc/c
c=current concentration of H+ assuming ph of ocean = 8: 10^-8
dc=change in concentration of H+ due to addition of 6ppmv CO2 to atmosphere from burning ff for one year.
dc=[.405(6.5x10^-6]*[H2C03]/[H20]x2**
* Henry's law
[H2C03]/[H20] equilibrium constant for dissociation of CO2 in sea water =1.2x10^-3
** Assume H2C03 <-> 2H+ + CO3^--

If you crank out the arithmetic you get change in ph due to 6.5ppmv CO2 production from burning ff in one year:

d(ph) = -.04

You forgot dissolved calcium carbonates and nitrates in the sea water. Ooops.


which is not insignificant.

IBdaMann wrote:

olyz wrote:1) If there is CO2 in the air, ocean must be saturated and any additional won't make any difference.

Absurd. Does the ocean look carbonated to you?

olyz wrote: If ocean is saturated, it's ph must be 5.5. It isn't, it's a little above7.

Actually, sodas are much less than that.

From "The pH of beverages in the United States"
by Avanija Reddy, DMD, MPH; Don F. Norris, DMD; Stephanie
S. Momeni, MS, MBA; Belinda Waldo, DMD; John D. Ruby,
DMD, PhD

RC Cola 2.32
Coca-Cola Caffeine Free 2.34
Coca-Cola Classic 2.37
Coca-Cola Cherry 2.38
Pepsi 2.39
Pepsi Wild Cherry 2.41
Boylan's Sugar Cane Cola 2.54
Schweppes Tonic Water 2.54
Hansen's Cane Soda Pomegranate 2.55
Hansen's Cane Soda Mandarin Lime 2.57
Hansen's Cane Soda Kiwi Strawberry 2.59
Jolly Rancher Grape 2.6
Jones Green Apple Soda 2.65
Fanta Grape 2.67
Pepsi Max Ceasefire 2.7
Tab 2.72
Pepsi Max 2.74
Boylan's Black Cherry 2.76
Crush Grape 2.76
Grapico 2.77
Vault 2.77
Fanta Pineapple 2.79
Jones Orange & Cream Soda 2.79
Mr. Pibb Xtra 2.8
Vault Red Blitz 2.8
Jones Strawberry Lime 2.81
Canada Dry Ginger Ale 2.82
Fanta Orange 2.82
Fanta Strawberry 2.84
Crush Orange 2.87
Hawaiian Punch (Fruit Juicy Red) 2.87
Dr. Pepper 2.88
Jolly Rancher Orange 2.88
Jones M.F. Grape 2.89
Sunkist Peach 2.89
Vault X 2.89
Natural Brew Draft Root Beer 2.9
Boylan's Grape 2.91
Hansen's Cane Soda Cherry Vanilla Crème 2.91
Coca-Cola Cherry Zero 2.93
Jones Mandarin Orange 2.93
Coca-Cola Lime Diet 2.96
Coca-Cola Zero 2.96
7UP Cherry 2.98
Sunkist Orange 2.98
Jones Blue Bubblegum 2.99
Sunkist Strawberry 2.99
Izze Sparkling Pomegranate 3.01
Pepsi Diet 3.02
Sunkist Solar Fusion Tropical Mandarin 3.02
Mellow Yellow 3.03
Coca-Cola Caffeine Free Diet 3.04
Grapico Diet 3.04
Jones Cream Soda 3.04
Mountain Dew Voltage 3.05
Dr Pepper Cherry 3.06
Fresca 3.08
Sierra Mist 3.09
Coca-Cola Diet 3.1
Welch's Grape Soda 3.11
Ale 8-One 3.13
Sprite Zero 3.14
Mountain Dew Diet 3.18
Dr Pepper Diet 3.2
Boylan's Orange Soda 3.22
Mountain Dew (regular) 3.22
Buffalo Rock Ginger Ale 3.23
7UP 3.24
Sprite 3.24
Izze Sparkling Clementine 3.27
Mountain Dew Code Red 3.27
Izze Sparkling Blackberry 3.28
Sierra Mist 3.31
Dr Pepper Diet Cherry 3.32
Jones Red Apple 3.4
Jones Root Beer 3.42
Hansen's Cane Soda Black Cherry Diet 3.47
7UP Diet 3.48
Sunkist Diet 3.49
Boylan's Orange Cream 3.59
Hansen's Cane Soda Creamy Root Beer Diet 3.73
Boylan's Original Birch Beer 3.8
A&W Cream Soda 3.86
Mug Root Beer 3.88
Boylan's Diet Black Cherry 4
Boylan's Root Beer 4.01
Boylan's Diet Root Beer 4.05
IBC Root Beer 4.1
Barq's Root Beer 4.11
Boylan's Creme Soda 4.17
A&W Root Beer 4.27
Maine Root Root Beer 4.36
A&W Root Beer Diet 4.57
Canada Dry Club Soda 5.24

I believe a better estimate for the ocean's average pH to be around 8.2, but that's just me.

olyz wrote: 3) Forget the reef. Carbonic acid reacts with sand which covers ocean floor, ie, a vast CO2 sink.

The carbonic acide never gets to the bottom. The vast bulk of any carbonic acid arrives via rain. It's the water on top, and it evaporates releasing the CO2 back into the atmosphere. It never gets to the bottom floor. Any other carbonic acid that flows in from other sources mixes with the 8.2 pH and, due to the rather large quantity of ocean water, becomes 8.2 pH.

olyz wrote:So it looks like there is a continuous process of CO2 (actually carbonic acid) reacting with the ocean floor and being absorbed from atmosphere.

Nope. It never gets there.


.

Im a BM wrote:
Stupid then. Stupid now.

Im a BM wrote:
According to "Mr. Chemistry Genius" IBdaMann, there are TWO mechanisms of pH buffering in the ocean.

1. Evaporation
2. Dilution

Im a BM wrote:
What is wrong with ignoring ANY mechanism of pH buffering other than EVAPORATION and DILUTION?

Im a BM wrote:
It means you don't have jack shit of value to contribute to the "debate".

Im a BM wrote:
It means you don't even know what ocean acidification IS.

Im a BM wrote:
I believe a better estimate for the ocean's average pH to be around 8.2, but that's just me.

Im a BM wrote:
But his pH 5.5 figure wasn't far off for what the ocean WOULD be in equilbrium with the atmosphere at 420 ppm CO2, if the ocean were pure water with an inert seal between the water and the sea floor.

Im a BM wrote:
A glass of pure water allowed to reach equilbrium with the atmosphere reaches pH about 5.6 due to formation of carbonic acid.

Im a BM wrote:
The sea remains alkaline because biogeochemical processes constantly generate new carbonate ions which enter the sea.

Im a BM wrote:
Carbonic acid doesn't "evaporate" very well, compared to water.

Im a BM wrote:
A carbonic acid molecule dissolved in water has multiple water molecules in tight association with it. This hydrated unit has very low vapor pressure, compared to free roaming water molecules.

Im a BM wrote:
And once carbonic acid gets transformed to bicarbonate ion, it will NOT evaporate. Period.

Im a BM wrote:
pH buffering in sea water is not accomplished by dilution or evaporation.

Im a BM wrote:
It is the "carbonate system", the equilibria between carbonic acid, bicarbonate ions, and carbonate ions in solution that buffers the pH of the sea so well.

Im a BM wrote:
And dilution is not the solution to pollution.

Im a BM wrote:
Other science denial websites offer far more sophisticated anti science to "debunk" ocean acidification.

Im a BM wrote:
Trolls on other science denial websites at least know how to use words like "alkalinity" and stuff. They must have passed high school chemistry.

Into the Night wrote:

Im a BM wrote:
Stupid then. Stupid now.

Mantra 1a. Lame.

Im a BM wrote:
According to "Mr. Chemistry Genius" IBdaMann, there are TWO mechanisms of pH buffering in the ocean.

1. Evaporation
2. Dilution

These two mechanisms exist, Robert.

Im a BM wrote:
What is wrong with ignoring ANY mechanism of pH buffering other than EVAPORATION and DILUTION?

Nothing, but these two are the most effective by far.

Im a BM wrote:
It means you don't have jack shit of value to contribute to the "debate".

Argument of the Stone fallacy. Bulverism fallacy.

Im a BM wrote:
It means you don't even know what ocean acidification IS.

It is not possible to acidify an alkaline.

Im a BM wrote:
I believe a better estimate for the ocean's average pH to be around 8.2, but that's just me.

Such is your belief. It is not possible to measure the pH of the ocean.

Im a BM wrote:
But his pH 5.5 figure wasn't far off for what the ocean WOULD be in equilbrium with the atmosphere at 420 ppm CO2, if the ocean were pure water with an inert seal between the water and the sea floor.

Attempted proof by contrivance. Argument from randU fallacy.

Im a BM wrote:
A glass of pure water allowed to reach equilbrium with the atmosphere reaches pH about 5.6 due to formation of carbonic acid.

Argument from randU fallacy.

Im a BM wrote:
The sea remains alkaline because biogeochemical processes constantly generate new carbonate ions which enter the sea.

There is no such thing as 'biogeochemistry'.
Carbonate is not a chemical.

Im a BM wrote:
Carbonic acid doesn't "evaporate" very well, compared to water.

Yes it does. Further, you are ignoring the equilibrium reaction of carbonic acid again.

Im a BM wrote:
A carbonic acid molecule dissolved in water has multiple water molecules in tight association with it. This hydrated unit has very low vapor pressure, compared to free roaming water molecules.

Irrelevance fallacy.

Im a BM wrote:
And once carbonic acid gets transformed to bicarbonate ion, it will NOT evaporate. Period.

Bicarbonate is not a chemical.

Im a BM wrote:
pH buffering in sea water is not accomplished by dilution or evaporation.

It is accomplished by both. Indeed, these are the most effective methods of buffering in the ocean.

Im a BM wrote:
It is the "carbonate system", the equilibria between carbonic acid, bicarbonate ions, and carbonate ions in solution that buffers the pH of the sea so well.

Carbonate is not a chemical.
Bicarbonate is not a chemical.
Water is a buffer.
Evaporation also acts as a buffer.

Im a BM wrote:
And dilution is not the solution to pollution.

It certainly is, if the so-called 'pollution' happens to be in water.

Im a BM wrote:
Other science denial websites offer far more sophisticated anti science to "debunk" ocean acidification.

You cannot acidify an alkaline.
Science is not a website.

Im a BM wrote:
Trolls on other science denial websites at least know how to use words like "alkalinity" and stuff. They must have passed high school chemistry.

Alkalinity is not a chemical.
Mantra 1c. Lame.
Chemistry is not a class.
Chemistry is not a high school.

IBdaMann wrote:

olyz wrote:1) If there is CO2 in the air, ocean must be saturated and any additional won't make any difference.

Absurd. Does the ocean look carbonated to you?

olyz wrote: If ocean is saturated, it's ph must be 5.5. It isn't, it's a little above7.

Actually, sodas are much less than that.

From "The pH of beverages in the United States"
by Avanija Reddy, DMD, MPH; Don F. Norris, DMD; Stephanie
S. Momeni, MS, MBA; Belinda Waldo, DMD; John D. Ruby,
DMD, PhD

RC Cola 2.32
Coca-Cola Caffeine Free 2.34
Coca-Cola Classic 2.37
Coca-Cola Cherry 2.38
Pepsi 2.39
Pepsi Wild Cherry 2.41
Boylan's Sugar Cane Cola 2.54
Schweppes Tonic Water 2.54
Hansen's Cane Soda Pomegranate 2.55
Hansen's Cane Soda Mandarin Lime 2.57
Hansen's Cane Soda Kiwi Strawberry 2.59
Jolly Rancher Grape 2.6
Jones Green Apple Soda 2.65
Fanta Grape 2.67
Pepsi Max Ceasefire 2.7
Tab 2.72
Pepsi Max 2.74
Boylan's Black Cherry 2.76
Crush Grape 2.76
Grapico 2.77
Vault 2.77
Fanta Pineapple 2.79
Jones Orange & Cream Soda 2.79
Mr. Pibb Xtra 2.8
Vault Red Blitz 2.8
Jones Strawberry Lime 2.81
Canada Dry Ginger Ale 2.82
Fanta Orange 2.82
Fanta Strawberry 2.84
Crush Orange 2.87
Hawaiian Punch (Fruit Juicy Red) 2.87
Dr. Pepper 2.88
Jolly Rancher Orange 2.88
Jones M.F. Grape 2.89
Sunkist Peach 2.89
Vault X 2.89
Natural Brew Draft Root Beer 2.9
Boylan's Grape 2.91
Hansen's Cane Soda Cherry Vanilla Crème 2.91
Coca-Cola Cherry Zero 2.93
Jones Mandarin Orange 2.93
Coca-Cola Lime Diet 2.96
Coca-Cola Zero 2.96
7UP Cherry 2.98
Sunkist Orange 2.98
Jones Blue Bubblegum 2.99
Sunkist Strawberry 2.99
Izze Sparkling Pomegranate 3.01
Pepsi Diet 3.02
Sunkist Solar Fusion Tropical Mandarin 3.02
Mellow Yellow 3.03
Coca-Cola Caffeine Free Diet 3.04
Grapico Diet 3.04
Jones Cream Soda 3.04
Mountain Dew Voltage 3.05
Dr Pepper Cherry 3.06
Fresca 3.08
Sierra Mist 3.09
Coca-Cola Diet 3.1
Welch's Grape Soda 3.11
Ale 8-One 3.13
Sprite Zero 3.14
Mountain Dew Diet 3.18
Dr Pepper Diet 3.2
Boylan's Orange Soda 3.22
Mountain Dew (regular) 3.22
Buffalo Rock Ginger Ale 3.23
7UP 3.24
Sprite 3.24
Izze Sparkling Clementine 3.27
Mountain Dew Code Red 3.27
Izze Sparkling Blackberry 3.28
Sierra Mist 3.31
Dr Pepper Diet Cherry 3.32
Jones Red Apple 3.4
Jones Root Beer 3.42
Hansen's Cane Soda Black Cherry Diet 3.47
7UP Diet 3.48
Sunkist Diet 3.49
Boylan's Orange Cream 3.59
Hansen's Cane Soda Creamy Root Beer Diet 3.73
Boylan's Original Birch Beer 3.8
A&W Cream Soda 3.86
Mug Root Beer 3.88
Boylan's Diet Black Cherry 4
Boylan's Root Beer 4.01
Boylan's Diet Root Beer 4.05
IBC Root Beer 4.1
Barq's Root Beer 4.11
Boylan's Creme Soda 4.17
A&W Root Beer 4.27
Maine Root Root Beer 4.36
A&W Root Beer Diet 4.57
Canada Dry Club Soda 5.24

I believe a better estimate for the ocean's average pH to be around 8.2, but that's just me.

olyz wrote: 3) Forget the reef. Carbonic acid reacts with sand which covers ocean floor, ie, a vast CO2 sink.

The carbonic acide never gets to the bottom. The vast bulk of any carbonic acid arrives via rain. It's the water on top, and it evaporates releasing the CO2 back into the atmosphere. It never gets to the bottom floor. Any other carbonic acid that flows in from other sources mixes with the 8.2 pH and, due to the rather large quantity of ocean water, becomes 8.2 pH.

olyz wrote:So it looks like there is a continuous process of CO2 (actually carbonic acid) reacting with the ocean floor and being absorbed from atmosphere.

Nope. It never gets there.


.

sealover wrote:WHAT A TREASURE!
I finally have my Ignoramus for Galileo's debate!

IBdaMann wrote:

sealover wrote:WHAT A TREASURE!
I finally have my Ignoramus for Galileo's debate!

You didn't say anything. It would seem that, to the best of your knowledge, you can't think of anything erroneous in my post.

I think I might have found my Ignoramus for Galileo's debate!

sealover wrote: Yes, a chance to clarify that it is about MARINE ALKALINITY DEPLETION (MAD), and NOT about "ocean ph".

sealover wrote: As a qualified chemist,

sealover wrote:Because "alkalinity" is the quantifiable ACID NEUTRALIZING CAPACITY that a solution contains,

sealover wrote: how much has the sea's ALKALINITY been DEPLETED.

sealover wrote: We will quantitatively assess how much pH "buffering" arises from purely physical mechanisms such as dilution or evaporation, to see how negligibly TINY it is compared to the alkalinity arising from the sea's carbonate system.

sealover wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

sealover wrote:WHAT A TREASURE!
I finally have my Ignoramus for Galileo's debate!

You didn't say anything. It would seem that, to the best of your knowledge, you can't think of anything erroneous in my post.

I think I might have found my Ignoramus for Galileo's debate!

As soon as Branner clears away the debris from the latest New Messiah incursions, yes, my Ignoramus is here in black and white on THIS thread.

"DON'T TRY TO DENY YOUR OWN POSTS!" - Into the Night

Yes, a chance to clarify that it is about MARINE ALKALINITY DEPLETION (MAD), and NOT about "ocean ph".

As a qualified chemist, I know that two solutions, one at pH 5.0 and one at pH 9.0 are BOTH 100 times DIFFERENT than pH 7.0 in terms of acidity or basicity. The solution at pH 9.0 is literally 10,000x as "alkaline" as the one at pH 5.0.

Which of the two solutions contains more ALKALINITY?

There is no way to know that based on pH alone. I have worked with pH 5.0 citrate buffers that contain more than 100x the alkalinity of sea water.

Because "alkalinity" is the quantifiable ACID NEUTRALIZING CAPACITY that a solution contains, arising from the conjugate base deprotonated anions of some WEAK acid (e.g. bicarbonate ion, HCO3-, a very specific CHEMICAL).

My citrate buffer was loaded with citrate ions, the oxyanion conjugate base of the weak acid known as "citric acid", which also happens to be a "chemical".

So, what the marine biologists and any human being with consciousness and a heart are concerned about is not really ocean "acidification", as the term can be easily interpreted as a question of how ALKALINE is the ocean (how far above pH 7.0) rather than how much has the sea's ALKALINITY been DEPLETED.

We will quantitatively assess how much pH "buffering" arises from purely physical mechanisms such as dilution or evaporation, to see how negligibly TINY it is compared to the alkalinity arising from the sea's carbonate system.

sealover wrote:
Yes, a chance to clarify that it is about MARINE ALKALINITY DEPLETION (MAD), and NOT about "ocean ph".

sealover wrote:
As a qualified chemist, I know that two solutions, one at pH 5.0 and one at pH 9.0 are BOTH 100 times DIFFERENT than pH 7.0 in terms of acidity or basicity. The solution at pH 9.0 is literally 10,000x as "alkaline" as the one at pH 5.0.

sealover wrote:
Which of the two solutions contains more ALKALINITY?

sealover wrote:
There is no way to know that based on pH alone. I have worked with pH 5.0 citrate buffers that contain more than 100x the alkalinity of sea water.

sealover wrote:
Because "alkalinity" is the quantifiable ACID NEUTRALIZING CAPACITY that a solution contains, arising from the conjugate base deprotonated anions of some WEAK acid (e.g. bicarbonate ion, HCO3-, a very specific CHEMICAL).

sealover wrote:
My citrate buffer was loaded with citrate ions, the oxyanion conjugate base of the weak acid known as "citric acid", which also happens to be a "chemical".

sealover wrote:
So, what the marine biologists and any human being with consciousness and a heart are concerned about is not really ocean "acidification", as the term can be easily interpreted as a question of how ALKALINE is the ocean (how far above pH 7.0) rather than how much has the sea's ALKALINITY been DEPLETED.

sealover wrote:
We will quantitatively assess how much pH "buffering" arises from purely physical mechanisms such as dilution or evaporation, to see how negligibly TINY it is compared to the alkalinity arising from the sea's carbonate system.

sealover wrote:
Branner doesn't seem to be in a hurry to "censor" away the newest barrage of New Messiah threads. I'm in no hurry to pick up the chemistry lessons before he does.

sealover wrote:
For the first time in a dozen years, I'm healthy enough to go to a lab or field site to perform basic research again. And I came up with the "MAD" (Marine Alkalinity Depletion) thing just in time to use it to impress the folks who are hiring at the SECOND most prestigious marine biology lab on the west coast.

sealover wrote:
It was wonderful to be healthy enough to work again, so I applied with a local company developing crop sensors. Word got out fast that I am available and now I am deluged with invitations to apply for this and that.

sealover wrote:
My insights about "ocean ph" may be more useful with a world-class team in a marine biology lab than as a poster at climate-debate.com

sealover wrote:
If Into the Night applied, they would not see any proof that he has any knowledge of chemistry.

sealover wrote:
There really is a "checklist" of things they need to see before they would just take his word for it that he is a "chemist", and he would not check ANY of the boxes, unless he just lies. And THIS job would really check out his credentials with a "trust but verify" approach. They would figure out that he lied about being a "chemist" before scheduling an interview. MY problem is that I have TOO many of those qualifications. Much more certified chemistry training than required for the position.

sealover wrote:
So, my cover letter introduces "Marine Alkalinity Depletion" or "MAD" as the term I use to substitute for "Ocean Acidification". This sets up a nice little biogeochemistry lesson about anaerobic sulfate reduction as the biggest source of carbonate ions entering the sea and my background in groundwater investigation in a coastal wetland that is the biggest source of submarine groundwater discharge of carbonate ions on the west coast.

sealover wrote:
It will be far more gratifying to discuss "ocean ph" with other research scientists, compared to what happens when attempting to discuss the topic with scientifically illiterate trolls here at climate-debate.com

sealover wrote:
Branner might NEVER take down this last batch of New Messiah threads, and in such case I might NEVER come back to discuss "ocean ph" with local trolls.

sealover wrote:
Imagine having a discussion with others who ALREADY know what pH, buffering, the carbonate system, conjugate base oxyanions, organic carbon versus inorganic carbon, generation of carbonate ions via sulfate reduction, submarine groundwater discharge and hydraulic gradients are in wetland hydrology.

sealover wrote:
NOBODY there will feel compelled to play any stupid mind pHuck games of "There is no such thing as organic carbon", "You cannot acidify an alkaline" or "carbonate is not a chemical".
Carbon is not organic.
You cannot acidify an alkaline.
Carbonate is not a chemical.
[quote]sealover wrote:
Heads up, IBdaMann. Double check your numbers for "10 million tons every day" of carbonates/bicarbonates provided to the sea by erosion.

Anthropogenic CO2 emissions ALONE are more than 100 million metric tons per day. The sea takes in at least a THIRD of them. ALL the eroded carbonates and bicarbonates combined can't make a dent in that, at a mere ten million tons per day. At least they don't EVPORATE, taking their acid neutralizing capacity out of the sea and venting it to the sky.

sealover wrote:
And that ten million tons per day figure IBdaMann cites most likely includes the heavy cations (calcium or magnesium) bound to those solid, suspended carbonates. Meaning it could only neutralize far LESS than ten million tons of the CO2 creating carbonic acid in the sea to add ten million tons of eroded carbonates.

sealover wrote:
Maybe I should just save it for the scientists at this point, because I can finally WORK AGAIN and it is going to be AWESOME!

sealover wrote:As a qualified chemist,

sealover wrote: I know that two solutions, one at pH 5.0 and one at pH 9.0 are BOTH 100 times DIFFERENT than pH 7.0

sealover wrote: in terms of acidity or basicity. The solution at pH 9.0 is literally 10,000x as "alkaline" as the one at pH 5.0.

sealover wrote: There is no way to know that based on pH alone.

sealover wrote: I have worked with pH 5.0 citrate buffers that contain more than 100x the alkalinity of sea water.

sealover wrote: Because "alkalinity" is the quantifiable ACID NEUTRALIZING CAPACITY that a solution contains,

sealover wrote:Branner doesn't seem to be in a hurry to "censor" ...

sealover wrote:My insights about "ocean ph" may be more useful with a world-class team in a marine biology lab than as a poster at climate-debate.com

sealover wrote:Heads up, IBdaMann. Double check your numbers for "10 million tons every day" of carbonates/bicarbonates provided to the sea by erosion.

sealover wrote: Anthropogenic CO2 emissions ALONE are more than 100 million metric tons per day.

sealover wrote: The sea takes in at least a THIRD of them.

sealover wrote:

IBdaMann wrote:

sealover wrote:WHAT A TREASURE!
I finally have my Ignoramus for Galileo's debate!

You didn't say anything. It would seem that, to the best of your knowledge, you can't think of anything erroneous in my post.

I think I might have found my Ignoramus for Galileo's debate!

As soon as Branner clears away the debris from the latest New Messiah incursions, yes, my Ignoramus is here in black and white on THIS thread.

"DON'T TRY TO DENY YOUR OWN POSTS!" - Into the Night

Yes, a chance to clarify that it is about MARINE ALKALINITY DEPLETION (MAD), and NOT about "ocean ph".

As a qualified chemist, I know that two solutions, one at pH 5.0 and one at pH 9.0 are BOTH 100 times DIFFERENT than pH 7.0 in terms of acidity or basicity. The solution at pH 9.0 is literally 10,000x as "alkaline" as the one at pH 5.0.

Which of the two solutions contains more ALKALINITY?

There is no way to know that based on pH alone. I have worked with pH 5.0 citrate buffers that contain more than 100x the alkalinity of sea water.

Because "alkalinity" is the quantifiable ACID NEUTRALIZING CAPACITY that a solution contains, arising from the conjugate base deprotonated anions of some WEAK acid (e.g. bicarbonate ion, HCO3-, a very specific CHEMICAL).

My citrate buffer was loaded with citrate ions, the oxyanion conjugate base of the weak acid known as "citric acid", which also happens to be a "chemical".

So, what the marine biologists and any human being with consciousness and a heart are concerned about is not really ocean "acidification", as the term can be easily interpreted as a question of how ALKALINE is the ocean (how far above pH 7.0) rather than how much has the sea's ALKALINITY been DEPLETED.

We will quantitatively assess how much pH "buffering" arises from purely physical mechanisms such as dilution or evaporation, to see how negligibly TINY it is compared to the alkalinity arising from the sea's carbonate system.

Im a BM wrote:
Branner doesn't seem to be in a hurry to "censor" away the newest barrage of New Messiah threads. I'm in no hurry to pick up the chemistry lessons before he does.

Im a BM wrote:
For the first time in a dozen years, I'm healthy enough to go to a lab or field site to perform basic research again. And I came up with the "MAD" (Marine Alkalinity Depletion) thing just in time to use it to impress the folks who are hiring at the SECOND most prestigious marine biology lab on the west coast.

Im a BM wrote:
It was wonderful to be healthy enough to work again, so I applied with a local company developing crop sensors. Word got out fast that I am available and now I am deluged with invitations to apply for this and that.

My insights about "ocean ph" may be more useful with a world-class team in a marine biology lab than as a poster at climate-debate.com

Im a BM wrote:
If Into the Night applied, they would not see any proof that he has any knowledge of chemistry. There really is a "checklist" of things they need to see before they would just take his word for it that he is a "chemist", and he would not check ANY of the boxes, unless he just lies. And THIS job would really check out his credentials with a "trust but verify" approach. They would figure out that he lied about being a "chemist" before scheduling an interview. MY problem is that I have TOO many of those qualifications. Much more certified chemistry training than required for the position.

Im a BM wrote:
So, my cover letter introduces "Marine Alkalinity Depletion" or "MAD" as the term I use to substitute for "Ocean Acidification". This sets up a nice little biogeochemistry lesson about anaerobic sulfate reduction as the biggest source of carbonate ions entering the sea and my background in groundwater investigation in a coastal wetland that is the biggest source of submarine groundwater discharge of carbonate ions on the west coast.

Im a BM wrote:
It will be far more gratifying to discuss "ocean ph" with other research scientists, compared to what happens when attempting to discuss the topic with scientifically illiterate trolls here at climate-debate.com

Im a BM wrote:
Branner might NEVER take down this last batch of New Messiah threads, and in such case I might NEVER come back to discuss "ocean ph" with local trolls.

Im a BM wrote:
Imagine having a discussion with others who ALREADY know what pH, buffering, the carbonate system, conjugate base oxyanions, organic carbon versus inorganic carbon, generation of carbonate ions via sulfate reduction, submarine groundwater discharge and hydraulic gradients are in wetland hydrology.

Im a BM wrote:
Anthropogenic CO2 emissions ALONE are more than 100 million metric tons per day. The sea takes in at least a THIRD of them. ALL the eroded carbonates and bicarbonates combined can't make a dent in that, at a mere ten million tons per day. At least they don't EVPORATE, taking their acid neutralizing capacity out of the sea and venting it to the sky.

Im a BM wrote:
And that ten million tons per day figure IBdaMann cites most likely includes the heavy cations (calcium or magnesium) bound to those solid, suspended carbonates. Meaning it could only neutralize far LESS than ten million tons of the CO2 creating carbonic acid in the sea to add ten million tons of eroded carbonates.

Im a BM wrote:
...deleted whining...

IBdaMann wrote:

olyz wrote:1) If there is CO2 in the air, ocean must be saturated and any additional won't make any difference.

Absurd. Does the ocean look carbonated to you?

olyz wrote: If ocean is saturated, it's ph must be 5.5. It isn't, it's a little above7.

Actually, sodas are much less than that.

From "The pH of beverages in the United States"
by Avanija Reddy, DMD, MPH; Don F. Norris, DMD; Stephanie
S. Momeni, MS, MBA; Belinda Waldo, DMD; John D. Ruby,
DMD, PhD

RC Cola 2.32
Coca-Cola Caffeine Free 2.34
Coca-Cola Classic 2.37
Coca-Cola Cherry 2.38
Pepsi 2.39
Pepsi Wild Cherry 2.41
Boylan's Sugar Cane Cola 2.54
Schweppes Tonic Water 2.54
Hansen's Cane Soda Pomegranate 2.55
Hansen's Cane Soda Mandarin Lime 2.57
Hansen's Cane Soda Kiwi Strawberry 2.59
Jolly Rancher Grape 2.6
Jones Green Apple Soda 2.65
Fanta Grape 2.67
Pepsi Max Ceasefire 2.7
Tab 2.72
Pepsi Max 2.74
Boylan's Black Cherry 2.76
Crush Grape 2.76
Grapico 2.77
Vault 2.77
Fanta Pineapple 2.79
Jones Orange & Cream Soda 2.79
Mr. Pibb Xtra 2.8
Vault Red Blitz 2.8
Jones Strawberry Lime 2.81
Canada Dry Ginger Ale 2.82
Fanta Orange 2.82
Fanta Strawberry 2.84
Crush Orange 2.87
Hawaiian Punch (Fruit Juicy Red) 2.87
Dr. Pepper 2.88
Jolly Rancher Orange 2.88
Jones M.F. Grape 2.89
Sunkist Peach 2.89
Vault X 2.89
Natural Brew Draft Root Beer 2.9
Boylan's Grape 2.91
Hansen's Cane Soda Cherry Vanilla Crème 2.91
Coca-Cola Cherry Zero 2.93
Jones Mandarin Orange 2.93
Coca-Cola Lime Diet 2.96
Coca-Cola Zero 2.96
7UP Cherry 2.98
Sunkist Orange 2.98
Jones Blue Bubblegum 2.99
Sunkist Strawberry 2.99
Izze Sparkling Pomegranate 3.01
Pepsi Diet 3.02
Sunkist Solar Fusion Tropical Mandarin 3.02
Mellow Yellow 3.03
Coca-Cola Caffeine Free Diet 3.04
Grapico Diet 3.04
Jones Cream Soda 3.04
Mountain Dew Voltage 3.05
Dr Pepper Cherry 3.06
Fresca 3.08
Sierra Mist 3.09
Coca-Cola Diet 3.1
Welch's Grape Soda 3.11
Ale 8-One 3.13
Sprite Zero 3.14
Mountain Dew Diet 3.18
Dr Pepper Diet 3.2
Boylan's Orange Soda 3.22
Mountain Dew (regular) 3.22
Buffalo Rock Ginger Ale 3.23
7UP 3.24
Sprite 3.24
Izze Sparkling Clementine 3.27
Mountain Dew Code Red 3.27
Izze Sparkling Blackberry 3.28
Sierra Mist 3.31
Dr Pepper Diet Cherry 3.32
Jones Red Apple 3.4
Jones Root Beer 3.42
Hansen's Cane Soda Black Cherry Diet 3.47
7UP Diet 3.48
Sunkist Diet 3.49
Boylan's Orange Cream 3.59
Hansen's Cane Soda Creamy Root Beer Diet 3.73
Boylan's Original Birch Beer 3.8
A&W Cream Soda 3.86
Mug Root Beer 3.88
Boylan's Diet Black Cherry 4
Boylan's Root Beer 4.01
Boylan's Diet Root Beer 4.05
IBC Root Beer 4.1
Barq's Root Beer 4.11
Boylan's Creme Soda 4.17
A&W Root Beer 4.27
Maine Root Root Beer 4.36
A&W Root Beer Diet 4.57
Canada Dry Club Soda 5.24

I believe a better estimate for the ocean's average pH to be around 8.2, but that's just me.

olyz wrote: 3) Forget the reef. Carbonic acid reacts with sand which covers ocean floor, ie, a vast CO2 sink.

The carbonic acide never gets to the bottom. The vast bulk of any carbonic acid arrives via rain. It's the water on top, and it evaporates releasing the CO2 back into the atmosphere. It never gets to the bottom floor. Any other carbonic acid that flows in from other sources mixes with the 8.2 pH and, due to the rather large quantity of ocean water, becomes 8.2 pH.

olyz wrote:So it looks like there is a continuous process of CO2 (actually carbonic acid) reacting with the ocean floor and being absorbed from atmosphere.

Nope. It never gets there.


.

sealover wrote:
This post by IBdaMann contains so many chemistry errors, I will probably not try to address them all with a single post.

sealover wrote:
The Carbonated Soda Analogy Falls "Flat"

IBdaMann provides a long list of carbonated soda beverages and their pH.

sealover wrote:
It is ironic that they call them "carbonated" because they contain no carbonate, CO3(2-). My grandma used to call them "phosphates" rather than "soda". That was because they used phosphoric acid to give them such low pH.

sealover wrote:
The original question was about "saturation" of water with CO2 from the atmosphere. The suggested pH of 5.5 at equilibrium was based on accurate application of Henry's Law and atmospheric partial pressure of CO2 at 0.04 atm.

sealover wrote:
To "carbonate" a soda, CO2 is injected at somewhat higher than 0.04 atm pressure. Orders of magnitude higher. A sealed container prevents escape to the atmosphere, with CO2 super saturated at multiple atmospheres of pressure.

sealover wrote:
The ocean is not a sealed container, nor is a cup of pure water exposed to the air. The pure water will reach equilibrium pH of about 5.6, due to 0.04 atm pressure driving CO2 into the water.

sealover wrote:
This post isn't the place for the carbonate system, so let's see HOW that CO2 gets into the water, and how DEEP it goes.
Carbonate is not a system.
You are ignoring Henry's Law again. Go learn what 'partial pressure' means.
[quote]sealover wrote:
IBdaMann makes the ABSURD assertion that it is only entering the sea in rain drops, and it stays close to the surface "Never reaches the bottom" kind of thing.

sealover wrote:
Every square meter of sea water surface absorbs CO2 in a basically one-way exchange.

sealover wrote:
A whole lot more goes in than comes back out.

sealover wrote:
And the CO2 and carbonic acid it creates diffuse throughout the entire water column.

sealover wrote:
Nothing confines it to remain close to the surface.

sealover wrote:
Okay, that was part ONE of the rebuttal to IBdaMann's STUPID post.

sealover wrote:
I need to come back to address what is the carbonate system, and to DEBUNK the retarded shit IBdaMann claims about the spatial distribution of carbonic acid in sea water, and the effectiveness of dilution as a buffer for "acidification".

sealover wrote:
Meanwhile, there was some low hanging fruit in another STUPID post by IBdaMann, asserting a conspiracy to collect samples closer and closer to the river mouth where it is allegedly more "acidic".

sealover wrote:
Hard to reconcile that with river water being the great source of alkaline carbonates entering the sea to maintain high pH. And the reality that the highest pH, most alkalinity rich water in the sea is the submarine groundwater discharge entering the sea just off shore from the river mouth.

IBdaMann wrote:

Into the Night wrote:The pH of ocean water varies somewhat, depend on where you draw your sample from.

Absolutely. In fact, it varies substantially. You probably won't be surprised to learn that "Ocean Acidification!"-crying "Climate Scientists have actually been dishonest in this regard. They have taken water samples over time, each time getting a little closer to a bay and ultimately closer to the mouth of a river, amazingly portraying a decrease in pH over time, or an "Acidification!" if you will.

Into the Night wrote:Most folks consider the average of them around 8.2. It is, of course, not possible to actually measure the global average pH of the world's oceans.

Of course. The ocean is alkaline because of natural geological activity. Any carbonic acid, however, is part of a cycle and will be removed through evaporation. In short, the oceans certainly might be alkalinizing and will never become acidic, i.e. will never acidify.

.

Im a BM wrote:
Gosh, those deceptive scientists tricked us into thinking the sea is getting more acidic by catching samples closer and closer to the river mouths.

Im a BM wrote:
Because, as IBdaMann has explained, ten million tons of carbonates a day flow out to the sea from rivers to keep it alkaline.

Im a BM wrote:
I won't bother correcting that just yet, because I want Into the Night to see that I am not "making shit up" about you.

Im a BM wrote:
Yup, It gets more acidic in the sea as you get closer to a river mouth. Right.

Im a BM wrote:
At some point we'll get into sulfuric acid exported from drained wetlands, but...

IBdaMann wrote:

Into the Night wrote:The pH of ocean water varies somewhat, depend on where you draw your sample from.

Absolutely. In fact, it varies substantially. You probably won't be surprised to learn that "Ocean Acidification!"-crying "Climate Scientists have actually been dishonest in this regard. They have taken water samples over time, each time getting a little closer to a bay and ultimately closer to the mouth of a river, amazingly portraying a decrease in pH over time, or an "Acidification!" if you will.

Into the Night wrote:Most folks consider the average of them around 8.2. It is, of course, not possible to actually measure the global average pH of the world's oceans.

Of course. The ocean is alkaline because of natural geological activity. Any carbonic acid, however, is part of a cycle and will be removed through evaporation. In short, the oceans certainly might be alkalinizing and will never become acidic, i.e. will never acidify.

.

IBdaMann wrote:

olyz wrote:1) If there is CO2 in the air, ocean must be saturated and any additional won't make any difference.

Absurd. Does the ocean look carbonated to you?

olyz wrote: If ocean is saturated, it's ph must be 5.5. It isn't, it's a little above7.

Actually, sodas are much less than that.

From "The pH of beverages in the United States"
by Avanija Reddy, DMD, MPH; Don F. Norris, DMD; Stephanie
S. Momeni, MS, MBA; Belinda Waldo, DMD; John D. Ruby,
DMD, PhD

RC Cola 2.32
Coca-Cola Caffeine Free 2.34
Coca-Cola Classic 2.37
Coca-Cola Cherry 2.38
Pepsi 2.39
Pepsi Wild Cherry 2.41
Boylan's Sugar Cane Cola 2.54
Schweppes Tonic Water 2.54
Hansen's Cane Soda Pomegranate 2.55
Hansen's Cane Soda Mandarin Lime 2.57
Hansen's Cane Soda Kiwi Strawberry 2.59
Jolly Rancher Grape 2.6
Jones Green Apple Soda 2.65
Fanta Grape 2.67
Pepsi Max Ceasefire 2.7
Tab 2.72
Pepsi Max 2.74
Boylan's Black Cherry 2.76
Crush Grape 2.76
Grapico 2.77
Vault 2.77
Fanta Pineapple 2.79
Jones Orange & Cream Soda 2.79
Mr. Pibb Xtra 2.8
Vault Red Blitz 2.8
Jones Strawberry Lime 2.81
Canada Dry Ginger Ale 2.82
Fanta Orange 2.82
Fanta Strawberry 2.84
Crush Orange 2.87
Hawaiian Punch (Fruit Juicy Red) 2.87
Dr. Pepper 2.88
Jolly Rancher Orange 2.88
Jones M.F. Grape 2.89
Sunkist Peach 2.89
Vault X 2.89
Natural Brew Draft Root Beer 2.9
Boylan's Grape 2.91
Hansen's Cane Soda Cherry Vanilla Crème 2.91
Coca-Cola Cherry Zero 2.93
Jones Mandarin Orange 2.93
Coca-Cola Lime Diet 2.96
Coca-Cola Zero 2.96
7UP Cherry 2.98
Sunkist Orange 2.98
Jones Blue Bubblegum 2.99
Sunkist Strawberry 2.99
Izze Sparkling Pomegranate 3.01
Pepsi Diet 3.02
Sunkist Solar Fusion Tropical Mandarin 3.02
Mellow Yellow 3.03
Coca-Cola Caffeine Free Diet 3.04
Grapico Diet 3.04
Jones Cream Soda 3.04
Mountain Dew Voltage 3.05
Dr Pepper Cherry 3.06
Fresca 3.08
Sierra Mist 3.09
Coca-Cola Diet 3.1
Welch's Grape Soda 3.11
Ale 8-One 3.13
Sprite Zero 3.14
Mountain Dew Diet 3.18
Dr Pepper Diet 3.2
Boylan's Orange Soda 3.22
Mountain Dew (regular) 3.22
Buffalo Rock Ginger Ale 3.23
7UP 3.24
Sprite 3.24
Izze Sparkling Clementine 3.27
Mountain Dew Code Red 3.27
Izze Sparkling Blackberry 3.28
Sierra Mist 3.31
Dr Pepper Diet Cherry 3.32
Jones Red Apple 3.4
Jones Root Beer 3.42
Hansen's Cane Soda Black Cherry Diet 3.47
7UP Diet 3.48
Sunkist Diet 3.49
Boylan's Orange Cream 3.59
Hansen's Cane Soda Creamy Root Beer Diet 3.73
Boylan's Original Birch Beer 3.8
A&W Cream Soda 3.86
Mug Root Beer 3.88
Boylan's Diet Black Cherry 4
Boylan's Root Beer 4.01
Boylan's Diet Root Beer 4.05
IBC Root Beer 4.1
Barq's Root Beer 4.11
Boylan's Creme Soda 4.17
A&W Root Beer 4.27
Maine Root Root Beer 4.36
A&W Root Beer Diet 4.57
Canada Dry Club Soda 5.24

I believe a better estimate for the ocean's average pH to be around 8.2, but that's just me.

olyz wrote: 3) Forget the reef. Carbonic acid reacts with sand which covers ocean floor, ie, a vast CO2 sink.

The carbonic acide never gets to the bottom. The vast bulk of any carbonic acid arrives via rain. It's the water on top, and it evaporates releasing the CO2 back into the atmosphere. It never gets to the bottom floor. Any other carbonic acid that flows in from other sources mixes with the 8.2 pH and, due to the rather large quantity of ocean water, becomes 8.2 pH.

olyz wrote:So it looks like there is a continuous process of CO2 (actually carbonic acid) reacting with the ocean floor and being absorbed from atmosphere.

Nope. It never gets there.


.

Im a BM wrote:
...deleted spam...

IBdaMann wrote:

Into the Night wrote:The pH of ocean water varies somewhat, depend on where you draw your sample from.

Absolutely. In fact, it varies substantially. You probably won't be surprised to learn that "Ocean Acidification!"-crying "Climate Scientists have actually been dishonest in this regard. They have taken water samples over time, each time getting a little closer to a bay and ultimately closer to the mouth of a river, amazingly portraying a decrease in pH over time, or an "Acidification!" if you will.

Into the Night wrote:Most folks consider the average of them around 8.2. It is, of course, not possible to actually measure the global average pH of the world's oceans.

Of course. The ocean is alkaline because of natural geological activity. Any carbonic acid, however, is part of a cycle and will be removed through evaporation. In short, the oceans certainly might be alkalinizing and will never become acidic, i.e. will never acidify.

.

Im a BM wrote:
...deleted useless repetition...

Into the Night wrote:

Im a BM wrote:
...deleted useless repetition...

Stop spamming.

Im a BM wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

Im a BM wrote:
...deleted useless repetition...

Stop spamming.

Stop BREATHING, you LYIN' motherpHuckin' FRAUD "chemist".

You don't even know what chemistry IS.

Im a BM wrote:
Are you willing to EVER provide your PERSONAL definition for "pH""

Im a BM wrote:
("RQAA").

Well, you claim, repeatedly, that pH is NOT = -log(H+).

Im a BM wrote:
You claim, repeatedly that pH CANNOT be below zero, even when shown the math for various solutions of pH = <0.

Im a BM wrote:
The closest you have EVER come to "Define Your Terms!" on pH is to vaguely refer to is as some kind of "ratio".

Im a BM wrote:
MATH ERROR!

You AIN'T no pHuckin' "CHEMIST"!

You don't even know what "chemistry" or "science" IS.

Into the Night wrote:

Im a BM wrote:

Into the Night wrote:

Im a BM wrote:
...deleted useless repetition...

Stop spamming.

Stop BREATHING, you LYIN' motherpHuckin' FRAUD "chemist".

You don't even know what chemistry IS.

You are describing yourself again.

Im a BM wrote:
Are you willing to EVER provide your PERSONAL definition for "pH""

I didn't define pH.

Im a BM wrote:
("RQAA").

Well, you claim, repeatedly, that pH is NOT = -log(H+).

It is not.

Im a BM wrote:
You claim, repeatedly that pH CANNOT be below zero, even when shown the math for various solutions of pH = <0.

pH cannot be less than zero.

Im a BM wrote:
The closest you have EVER come to "Define Your Terms!" on pH is to vaguely refer to is as some kind of "ratio".

It is.

Im a BM wrote:
MATH ERROR!

You AIN'T no pHuckin' "CHEMIST"!

You don't even know what "chemistry" or "science" IS.

Inversion fallacy. You are describing yourself again. You cannot blame your problems on anybody else, Robert.

Im a BM wrote: Google will outsmart Into the Night every time!

IBdaMann wrote:

Into the Night wrote:The pH of ocean water varies somewhat, depend on where you draw your sample from.

Absolutely. In fact, it varies substantially. You probably won't be surprised to learn that "Ocean Acidification!"-crying "Climate Scientists have actually been dishonest in this regard. They have taken water samples over time, each time getting a little closer to a bay and ultimately closer to the mouth of a river, amazingly portraying a decrease in pH over time, or an "Acidification!" if you will.

Into the Night wrote:Most folks consider the average of them around 8.2. It is, of course, not possible to actually measure the global average pH of the world's oceans.

Of course. The ocean is alkaline because of natural geological activity. Any carbonic acid, however, is part of a cycle and will be removed through evaporation. In short, the oceans certainly might be alkalinizing and will never become acidic, i.e. will never acidify.

.

Im a BM wrote: The deception conspiracy to create/support a HOAX of "ocean acidification".

Im a BM wrote: How did those sneaky bastards pull it off? They systematically collected sea water samples closer and closer to where rivers meet the sea, to create a falsely biased data set to show lower and lower pH.

Im a BM wrote: Well, "they" should be ASHAMED of themselves for deliberately biasing progressive sampling toward the source of ACIDITY from rivers flowing in...

Im a BM wrote: Where do rivers get all that "acid"?

Im a BM wrote: They carry to the sea 10 million tons a day of "carbonates", for high alkalinity. Enough alkalinity to neutralize ALL the carbonic acid in the sea created by manmade emission.

Im a BM wrote: Just ask IBdaMann!

Into the Night wrote:

olyz wrote:
It's a case of worst case scenarios. In engineering you never know all the exact conditions. You can't possibly know on any given day what the exact weather conditions will be between a) and b) so we can't design an airplane.

We can design airplaines. We don't need to know any weather conditions to do so.

olyz wrote:
If by experience, observation and trial you can predict a worst case scenario, you can design a plane, or a bridge, or a car.

We don't design airplanes or cars for worst case scenarios. We design bridges for the expected worse conditions at that location.

olyz wrote:
You might assume a worst case scenario but the plane you come up with might never leave the ground or break up on first encounter with bad weather.

Nothing to do with it. Weather is not a factor when designing airplanes, other than making them out of materials that can handle getting wet.

olyz wrote:
I was curious about solution of CO2 in the ocean for two reasons:
1) Does it contribute to reduction of CO2 from fossil fuel? No
2) How much does it change ocean ph?
1) Zero. Fossils don't burn.
2) Zero. Fossils don't burn.
[quote]olyz wrote:
In either case a worst case scenario can give significant information.

Nope. Fossils don't burn. In the case of CO2 produced from carbon based fuels, the answers are:
1) Academic. It doesn't matter.
2) It doesn't.

olyz wrote:
Henry's law gives concentration at surface with unknown variation at deeper depths.

Not that it matters, it's one reason why 1) or 2) is not really possible to calculate.

olyz wrote:
If you assume uniform concentration over the worlds water you get that only .035% of the yearly production of 6.4ppmv from fossil fuel is absorbed by the ocean.

Zero. Fossils don't burn. CO2 is not uniformly distributed in ocean water or in the air. You are making a rash assumption. The problem is now an academic one and has no relation to anything real.

olyz wrote:
So answer to 1) is no and the exact variation of concentration is academic from that point of view.

Zero for fossils 'fuels', correct for carbon based fuels.

olyz wrote:
With the same uniform distribution of CO2 in the ocean, you should be able to calculate change in ph if you knew how ph various with dissolved amount of CO2.

Nope. First it isn't uniformly distributed, and second, it depends on the amount of the ocean water, what else is in it, etc.

olyz wrote:
If that turns out to be insignificant, my original goal, then you don't have to worry about it. If not, you have to look at in more detail. I couldn't find any hard information on ph variation with dissolved CO2.

Because it depends on how much water there is, what else is in it, etc.
Dissolved CO2 by itself doesn't change pH at all. Carbonic acid, which part of the dissolved CO2 turns into (and back again) is dependent on the amount of water, what else is in it, etc.

You should study up on buffers in acid-base chemical reactions.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio wrote:
"You should study up on buffers in acid-base chemical reactions." - ITN
"Water itself is a buffer for acid." - Into the Night

Yes, you should study up on buffers in acid-base chemical reactions.

You would learn why water itself is not a buffer for acid.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio wrote:
A buffer is the conjugate base of a weak acid, able to protonate upon addition of acid to resist solution pH change. The most important such conjugate bases in sea water are the bicarbonate ion, HCO3-, and the carbonate ion, CO3(2-).

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio wrote:
Upon addition of acid to sea water, hydrogen ions (a.k.a. "protons"), H+ attach to carbonate ions, CO3(2-) to form bicarbonate ions, HCO3-.

H+ + CO3(2-) = HCO3-

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio wrote:
The solution pH declines very little.

The bioavailability of carbonate ion for CaCO3 shell formation is decreased.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio wrote:
When carbon dioxide from the atmosphere dissolves into the sea, and some small part of it becomes carbonic acid, reaction with carbonate ensures that the CO2 shall never return to the atmosphere.

Im a BM and sealover and Patricio wrote:
The bicarbonate ion cannot evaporate. Bioavailability of carbonate is diminished.